ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[LeapsFrog]

Ferrothorn and Skarmory, the OU Steels, are B+ Rank for a Reason they do extremely well against Physical Teams with Special Attackers who only neutral or are Xerneas. I know this because I have team that is high in ladder that is WEAK to these pokemon. I had to swap out Dragon Tail for Lava Plume on Primal Groudon just because of these 2 pokemon. When Ferrothorn is almost dead can all of sudden Leech Seed it's way back to Full Health while running Leftovers. Skarmory is Defog that also can wall out physical offense. Most pokemon in Ubers are Physical so these Physical Walls thrive due to the threats in the meta. Ferrothorn and Skarmory happen to check Mega Kangaskhan the hardest who happens to be lower in B Rank. Mega Kangaskhan would probably be cruising in A- or A right now if these pokemon did not exist. Some people do not see the dominance of Skarmory or Ferrothorn because they tend to have them covered really well. A lot of people over ranked it due to how it demolished their physical cores+Xern. These pokemon pretty much became the checks to some of best in the tier and probably caused the rise of Lava Plume on Primal Groudon. They just happen to check key threats really well while becoming one. While certain checks to these pokemon are falling are resulting in the meta making these pokemon better than on paper.

 

[Peli]

Ferrothorn and Skarmory, the OU Steels, are B+ Rank for a Reason they do extremely well against Physical Teams with Special Attackers who only neutral or are Xerneas. I know this because I have team that is high in ladder that is WEAK to these pokemon. I had to swap out Dragon Tail for Lava Plume on Primal Groudon just because of these 2 pokemon. When Ferrothorn is almost dead can all of sudden Leech Seed it's way back to Full Health while running Leftovers. Skarmory is Defog that also can wall out physical offense. Most pokemon in Ubers are Physical so these Physical Walls thrive due to the threats in the meta. Ferrothorn and Skarmory happen to check Mega Kangaskhan the hardest who happens to be lower in B Rank. Mega Kangaskhan would probably be cruising in A- or A right now if these pokemon did not exist. Some people do not see the dominance of Skarmory or Ferrothorn because they tend to have them covered really well. A lot of people over ranked it due to how it demolished their physical cores+Xern. These pokemon pretty much became the checks to some of best in the tier and probably caused the rise of Lava Plume on Primal Groudon. They just happen to check key threats really well while becoming one. While certain checks to these pokemon are falling are resulting in the meta making these pokemon better than on paper.

Teams covering certain mons well, does not justify those mons moving up in viability. Also without those 2 mons kang would still be far from an A rank nmon.Rockceus,Yveltal,Ghostceus,Giratina, and Sableye all check Kang with no issues.

 

[Sweep]

Proposed Change List by nayrz and whether or not I agree with them:

Sableye: B- >>> Unranked Yes this sucks, not bulky enough to deal with Primal Groudon, Salamence, cannot switch into anything basically.

Blissey: B- >>> B Sure, it's a very average mon that can be ambushed very easily (refresh Arceus if you lack Snatch, physical Primal Kyogre) but walls what it needs to and has good support capabilities

Jirachi: B >>> B- Scarf set is pretty adequate, but it is walled by Primal Groudon and unlike Klefki, it has an awful time finding room for Toxic. This is C+ for me, I have always disliked it in ORAS.

Greninja: C+ >>> B- Loses to Deo-S and Mega Sableye, two very common leads, and cannot do anything so long Mega Sableye is alive. I see no reason to elevate it; too reliant on match-up.

Palkia: B >>> D Nice Speed tier allows it to outrun Modest Latios / Latias, Rayquaza, Kyurem-W so it isn't a useless wallbreaker. Checks nothing, weak to hazards, and without TWave is vulnerable to Geomancy Xerneas. I'm not 100% comfortable calling Palkia COMPLETELY unviable but I'm OK with this rank (or C-)

Kyurem-W: B- >>> C+ Support a drop, support Arceus and Ho-Oh are very hard to break.

Kyogre: C >>> D Awful Pokemon. Agree.

Ferrothorn: B+ >>> B Strongly disagree, it's B+ at worst. Sturdiest Primal Kyogre check there is, Xerneas needs Focus Blast to beat it, can easily fit status / Spikes / Toxic onto its set, synergizes well with Wish passers like Alomomola.

Landorus: C- >>> D Yea this is obviously bad. Walled by a good chunk of the metagame and useless vs. offense.

 

[Magcargo]

Genesect to D-Rank? It lost a huge portion of its niche when sticky web became unviable.

 

[Nayrz]

Alright so i've taken all the posts into account and decided on a course of action - All mons that have been generally regarded as unviable by the community will move to D rank. Removing the C+ or C- ranks would end up with a bunch of mons with differing "power levels" (aka the spikers would be beside the very rare Arceus formes) and we already have D as a general "don't use" section, so i don't think that's feasible. Quick way to figure the difference - if a mon has a small niche but does not fit teams that easily, its C rank. If a mon has no niche and is impossible to justify on a serious team, its D rank. So...here's the update. Quick reminder is that all the changes go by the mods first to ensure i don't rank Heatran when Sweep isn't looking - that's half the reason updates can take a bit longer than intended.

Change List:

Sableye: B- >>> Unranked
Blissey: B- >>> B
Jirachi: B >>> C+
Palkia: B >>> D (it probably makes more sense to stick this in here and see some arguments for it to rise up, rather than have it in c- only for people to question the decision)
Kyurem-W: B- >>> C+
Kyogre: C >>> D
Landorus: C- >>> D
Mega Lopunny: Unranked > C+ (passed for an analysis so gets C+ as an initial placement)

Side note: Something i've noticed in recent builds and matches is the amount of Arceus-Water...what are peoples thoughts on its current position?
We also have a stacked af C+ rank and 2 mons in C-...perhaps its time to look at the lesser Arceus formes and even out the rankings.

 

[tenefix]

I'd like to see Arceus-Water moved up. It fits on more teams than Arceus-Rock due to how much it checks (despite having different roles), but Arceus-Rock is definitely not B+ material unless we move around Arceus-Fairy and -Dark (and still, it's just better than the mons in B+). Just as good of a defogger as the Lati twins and isn't necessarily too weak to Mega Gengar if it runs Judgement > Ice Beam, which is a fine option since it pairs well with Lugia.

So yeah... Great typing to check a ton of physical threats and stall them out with Toxic, great stats and only needs minimal Speed investment to outrun Rayquaza which is a great benchmark for Speed, has great utility, etc. Definitely A material.

Concerning the Arceus formes in C+, I could see Grassceus staying since it's a great check to SD Groundceus and can at least hit Pdon neutrally with its STAB. Also can lure some stuff. Poisonceus really only checks Xerneas and Eleceus doesn't do much at all so I could see them in C. That being said, none of the current placements stand out to me as blatantly wrong.

I could also see Steelceus in C-, but I don't even know what it does as I've never used it. All I know is that I've never seen it used well and it seems worse than stuff like Arceus-Dragon who can at least fire off Draco-powered Judgments without the drop and is fast as hell to revenge Lati@s, Mence, Ray, and other stuff.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Mega Blaziken (Not base, just Mega) B- --> C/C-:

Honestly, it really isn't worth running Mega Blaziken in this meta. Blaziken and Mega Blaziken in this meta kinda remind me of Latios and Mega Latios in OU, where the situatuion is that not only is the base form holding life orb more powerful than the mega, but it also doesn't take up its mega slot, and the mega really only provides a bit more bulk. However, 80/80/80 bulk is still quite pathetic in Ubers. Also, using Mega Blaziken means you can't use better megas such as Mega Salamence and Mega Gengar. Not only that but Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence, espically the latter, shit on Mega Blaziken, which is a problem considering how common and powerful these two pokemon are. Really the only reason I'm not saying C-/D is because of less recoil, slightly more bulk, and more speed than Blaziken, but these still aren't really worth it

Flying Arceus C --> C-

I feel like Flying Arceus is somewhat of an inferior Mega Salamence. Really, other than a lack of a Fairy weakness and I guess hitting on the Special side instead of the Physical side, there is no reason to use this over Mega Mence, thanks to its higher physical bulk, for the mosts part better typing, greater offensive presence. I guess you could try to use this if wanted to try to wall All Out Attacking Xerneas, but I'm not sure how well it does this

 

[Cheryl.]

Can we drop normal Groudon? Reason: You aren't running PDON? What's wrong with you lol

 

[Krauersaut]

although I appreciate your attempt at humor it ended up looking like a ggfan post. regular groudon, unlike its regular counterpart, has fantastic niches in the Ubers metagame - pure ground typing is still incredibly defensively, and its stats are nothing to chuckle at either. it checks ho-oh, sd arc forms, salamence-mega, the list goes on. it's where it belongs.

 

[Sweep]

Regular Groudon and Primal Groudon function differently in this metagame. For example, regular Groudon is a good check to Extreme Killer Arceus, something Primal Groudon struggles with because it despises +2 Earthquakes. Groudon is also a decent check to Primal Groudon itself, despite abhorring Lava Plume and Overheat (and obviously mixed Rock Polish sets with Fire Blast but only I use that set because people apparently don't like winning). Regular Groudon also keeps sun up for Ho-Oh, making it that much harder for stuff like Salamence and support Arceus formes to check it. Primal Groudon is better almost every single time but regular Groudon does have its advantages.

edit: COME THE FUCK ON I'M TWO SECONDS LATE

 

[Hack]

Can we drop normal Groudon? Reason: You aren't running PDON? What's wrong with you lol

No, Groudon, in contrast to Kyogre, has merit with its typing and shared weather. It isn't the easiest mon to fit, so it's certainly very niche but shared weather and a neutrality to ground-moves as opposed to weakness allows it to support Ho-oh in a different way and check offensive pDons as well as Ekiller on occasion.

edit: OH FOR GOD'S LOVE SWEEP THIS POST WAS ACTUALLY AN ATTEMPT AT BEING NICE FOR ONCE

@krauer - the part about checking ho-oh (as well as mega mence) is garbage cmon

 

[Cheryl.]

although I appreciate your attempt at humor it ended up looking like a ggfan post. regular groudon, unlike its regular counterpart, has fantastic niches in the Ubers metagame - pure ground typing is still incredibly defensively, and its stats are nothing to chuckle at either. it checks ho-oh, sd arc forms, salamence-mega, the list goes on. it's where it belongs.

Okay I may have been a bit adamant there. Groudon can stay in B.

 

[Krauersaut]

No, Groudon, in contrast to Kyogre, has merit with its typing and shared weather. It isn't the easiest mon to fit, so it's certainly very niche but shared weather and a neutrality to ground-moves as opposed to weakness allows it to support Ho-oh in a different way and check offensive pDons as well as Ekiller on occasion.

edit: OH FOR GOD'S LOVE SWEEP THIS POST WAS ACTUALLY AN ATTEMPT AT BEING NICE FOR ONCE

@krauer - the part about checking ho-oh (as well as mega mence) is garbage cmon

it can ;_;

 

[Dilwar]

Tanking them unresisted Sun boosted Sacred Fires is ez ofc. Also P-Don checks Mence just as well as Regular Don so I don't see the point of that argument.

(SE Earthquake x 2 = 200BP)

(Aerilate Return = 198BP), (Double Edge = More)

P-Don in fact checks it better due to higher Defense.

 

[Krauersaut]

Tanking them unresisted Sun boosted Sacred Fires is ez ofc. Also P-Don checks Mence just as well as Regular Don so I don't see the point of that argument.

(SE Earthquake x 2 = 200BP)

(Aerilate Return = 198BP), (Double Edge = More)

P-Don in fact checks it better due to higher Defense.

yeah d00d, i mentioned that donner checked mence better than pdon did, definitely

and i didn't use italics to say i'm wrong in the last post i made or anything,,,

 

[Dilwar]

HELLO YOU CAN'T JUST EDIT YOUR POST LIKE THAT

E: My proof is Hack's reply

 

[Krauersaut]

dnt think ur so smart dude. sweep can see edit log, i didn't change anything rofl

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Any reason as of why Ho-oh and Mega Gengar dropped from S rank?

 

[Lord Outrage]

Any reason as of why Ho-oh and Mega Gengar dropped from S rank?

These 2 pokemons were never S rank. They were in S- rank. From a month or a bit more the S- rank got removed so they dropped to A+ since both are not as threatening as Mence,Xerneas and Ekiller who stayed in S specially that Ho oh needs support(Defog/Rapid Spin) To function well unlike the others in that needs no support or very low support to sweep.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

But Gengar is guaranteed to get one kill each match, sounds pretty S worthy to me.

Edit: I don't want to make this post useless, let me bring something else to the table. I'm not new to Ubers, but I'm new to the community and haven't been following the rankings as much, why is Primal Groudon not... suspect tested? I know we're not supposed to ask but in my eyes it seems immensely broken and centralising, can someone give me and hopefully other less experienced players some insight

 

[tenefix]

It's not guaranteed, there are a lot of 50/50s involved, especially versus offensive teams. I nommed Mega Gengar to rise from A to A+ a little while ago and it's in A+ now, but hes simply not on par with the other S-rank mons since they also offer some defensive utility (Mence, Xern, and Ekiller are all pretty bulky no matter which set you run).

 

[Cheryl.]

But Gengar is guaranteed to get one kill each match, sounds pretty S worthy to me.

Edit: I don't want to make this post useless, let me bring something else to the table. I'm not new to Ubers, but I'm new to the community and haven't been following the rankings as much, why is Primal Groudon not... suspect tested? I know we're not supposed to ask but in my eyes it seems immensely broken and centralising, can someone give me and hopefully other less experienced players some insight

There's a reason..

But Gengar is guaranteed to get one kill each match, sounds pretty S worthy to me.

Edit: I don't want to make this post useless, let me bring something else to the table. I'm not new to Ubers, but I'm new to the community and haven't been following the rankings as much, why is Primal Groudon not... suspect tested? I know we're not supposed to ask but in my eyes it seems immensely broken and centralising, can someone give me and hopefully other less experienced players some insight

There a reason.... ITS GOoD for the Tier surer it checks kyorge and xerneas surer that is why

 

[M217]

I propose pushing Kyurem-W up from C+ to B.

Just as an example of Kyurem-W's sheer monstrous power...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 379-447 (93.8 - 110.6%)
Yes, you read that right... it has a greater than 50% chance to OHKO a specially defensive Primal Groudon, one of the bulkiest mons in the entire tier... That's a guaranteed OHKO after stealth rocks.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Lugia: 408-480 (98 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Defensive Lugia, nicknamed "The Great Wall" and boasting absolutely massive mixed bulk, is likely to be OHKOd. The only other pokemon that I can think of that can OHKO a full-health Lugia is Zekrom.

Kyurem-W's ability also notably allows it to KO right through sturdy, entirely stopping the likes of forretress and shuckle.

But it's absolutely monstrous special attack isn't the only reason Kyurem-W is deserving of a promotion.

I've also, in my ubers playing, noted that Kyurem-W becomes even more devastating when partnered with Primal Groudon, the tier's premier threat, because they happen to have incredible offensive synergy. We've seen that Kyurem-W can smash right through Lugia, one of Primal Groudon's annoying checks, and enemy Primal Groudon. It is also capable of slamming Arceus-Ground and wiping it off the face of the earth. It can tank an annoying Mega-Salamence's return and completely nukes it with ice beam, and it can 2HKO Arceus-Water. In return, it appreciates Groudon's ability to rip through Blissey and counter Xerneas, the two biggest thorns in Kyurem's side.

With a choice scarf equipped, Kyurem-W outspeeds the entire unboosted tier barring Deoxys formes, and can surprise-ohko blisteringly fast threats like Mewtwo, Darkrai and Mega Gengar using neutral attacks, and despite the power drop associated with losing specs, it can still one-shot Primal Groudon with a little prior damage.

Kyurem-W is a pokemon gifted with an incredible offensive typing, ability, and special attack stat, and cursed with an average base 95 speed. However, I feel a clever player can circumvent these issues and use it to its full potential.

I definitely think it fits the definiton of B-rank "Reserved for Pokemon that have decent offensive or defensive capabilities. B rank Pokemon are typically chosen for their specific roles, but need certain degrees of support..." And I think it's good qualities definitely make it more than a simple niche pokemon. (It's definitely loads better than some of the other C-tier pokemon, and it's better than Arceus-Ice which is B-...)

Expect some replays shortly!

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Nah, I think White Kyurem is fine where it's at. While I certainly will admit that its offensive capabilities are definitely brutal and make it ferociously dangerous in 1v1 situations, it has a number of flaws that make it hard to legitimately justify using it on a team in most cases. Its biggest problem is that it offers practically no defensive value, which is even worsened by its Stealth Rock weakness. Being able to bypass Sturdy isn't that great of a feat considering Forretress is a niche Pokemon and Shuckle is just not good at all in this metagame. Being able to crush Lugia might seem neat, but it's really not that great considering Zekrom (who is kinda average in this meta) can do that while having some defensive synergy in dealing with things like Primal Kyogre and the like, and there are other ways in handling Lugia like poisoning it with Toxic: you really don't need to OHKO Lugia in order to successfully deal with it. Yes its Draco Meteor is strong as fuck and it OHKOes Primal Groudon, but once you click Draco meteor, you are 100% letting a potential Xerneas sweep get through. For something that has no defensive value and just can't switch into anything safely, White Kyurem is extremely prediction reliant. If you click Draco Meteor, you're leaving yourself liable to getting wrecked by Xerneas. If you click Ice Beam, you leave yourself being forced out by Primal Kyogre or Water Arceus, as well as some steels like Klefki. This is a problem because White Kyurem is hard to get in the field safely considering it has nothing it can safely switch into and is weak to Rocks. Many other wallbreakers, namely latios, have some sort of defensive utility, as the Latis can Defog and also take on the Primals to a degree, which is always useful. White Kyurem may have impressive offensive prowess, but it lacks utility and outside of nuking, it has little in order to actually help its team and is often more of a crutch than an asset. It can work and may be sometimes useful but otherwise it's just not on the level of the other stuff in B-. Oh and Iceceus is actually legit since its CM set has a great Speed tier and BoltBeam, having the better end of the stick with the combo, and in general being able to revenge Mega Salamence and Yveltal is really neat. Its typing really sucks for it but that's why it's in B- after all...

 

[baconbagon]

But Gengar is guaranteed to get one kill each match, sounds pretty S worthy to me.

Edit: I don't want to make this post useless, let me bring something else to the table. I'm not new to Ubers, but I'm new to the community and haven't been following the rankings as much, why is Primal Groudon not... suspect tested? I know we're not supposed to ask but in my eyes it seems immensely broken and centralising, can someone give me and hopefully other less experienced players some insight

There actually has been debate about Primal Groudon, which you can view in this thread.