On mobile so I'm gonna keep it short and only going to address serperior as of now. I don't agree with this going up to A rank. It is definitely a powerhouse in the meta game but the influx of tornaudus weavile and spdef talonflame really hinders it from performing. It can definitely power through some cores that rely on hippo or a bulky water but I just don't think it is at the same caliber as the other A ranked mons bc it requires more support than them imo. It is also heavily reliant on its choice of hidden power. Hp fire than heatran is annoying. Hp ground then ferro is annoying. Coba berry hp rock (lol) then it has trouble with other mons. Still a great Pokemon in this metagame but idk if it's A rank
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
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Mega Metagross: S -> A+ - DISAGREE: Mega metagross is still as threatening as ever just simply better prepared for by a lot of people. Mega Metagross still has immense firepower and has enough speed to give many balance teams a lot of problems. While the rise in hippowdown is unfortunate for metagross, it can still be dealt with quite easily as hippo can't even switch in as it can be taken out with a combination of meteor mash and grass knot at full health sometimes and guaranteed after a bit of prior damage. Though mega metagross' most common set is that of all out attacker is the most common it is NOT it's only set. Mega Metagross can carry pursuit to open up opportunities for teammates to sweep due to the large number of switches it causes with its great offensive prowess and bulk paired with its many great resistances. Sub PuP/Hone Claws is also decent vs Stall and rock polish variants put in a lot of work vs offense builds. Mega Metagross is also a great choice for offense teams due to its typing. Many offense builds lack a switchin for a clefable's boosted moonblast or a lati@s' draco while these pose little to no threat to the beast that is mega metagross. All in all its very versatile mon despite people saying otherwise that provides great stats from both the offensive and defensive spectrum that a great choice for many teams. This is especially true for offense and I do not think that the rise in usage of its checks is any reason to consider it less viable if they're easily played around. Meanwhile it's instant bulk and offensive pressure is more than enough reason to consider it a top tier threat at the moment.
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I've been holding off on this because there are so many discussion points but I feel like now is the time to post it.
Azumarill A+ -> S
Consider the metagame trends; increased usage/effectiveness of Weavile, Zard X, Sand offense, the ubiquity of Hippowdon, all of which Azumarill acts as a great offensive check to. It also appreciates the decline of Rotom and Celebi which are pretty good checks. I suppose Rocky Chomp is a bit annoying for it but all things considered isn't really the best answer. Band breaks Clefable too and doesn't really mind the currently popular twave as much as a lot of other things.
Between its 2 sets, Azumarill has only one true counter which is Mega Venusaur. CB and BD have entirely different answers, so a single play based on the assumption of one when it is the other can lead to a KO.
Granted it is slow and there are a lot of checks to it but it's a true staple on offense these days since its typing allows it to check so many relevant threats and create momentum swings.
Azumarill A+ -> S
Consider the metagame trends; increased usage/effectiveness of Weavile, Zard X, Sand offense, the ubiquity of Hippowdon, all of which Azumarill acts as a great offensive check to. It also appreciates the decline of Rotom and Celebi which are pretty good checks. I suppose Rocky Chomp is a bit annoying for it but all things considered isn't really the best answer. Band breaks Clefable too and doesn't really mind the currently popular twave as much as a lot of other things.
Between its 2 sets, Azumarill has only one true counter which is Mega Venusaur. CB and BD have entirely different answers, so a single play based on the assumption of one when it is the other can lead to a KO.
Granted it is slow and there are a lot of checks to it but it's a true staple on offense these days since its typing allows it to check so many relevant threats and create momentum swings.
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I still think Meta should remain S Rank, mostly because of the versatility it has for coverage options. It's one of those pokemon that you can tailor to the rest of your team's weaknesses, and thus it doesn't need a set of champions to do what it needs to do. With the right support, it's one of those wall-breakers that can get a kill almost every time it comes in. The rise of hippo and tank chomp definitely work against Mega Meta's viability, but both of these are not terribly difficult to beat with, say, Keldeo or Manaphy, both of which are commonly paired with Metagross for that purpose. Also, Metagross has options like PuP, Grass Knot and Ice Punch to take on both of these checks itself if necessary for the rest of the team.
There are a couple other mons that I think warrant discussion right now:
I'm kinda torn on this, but Manaphy is such a terrifying pokemon right now. I may have a biased opinion since I like using fat teams which are inherently bad against Manaphy. Regardless, I haven't seen discussion on this for a while and the recent spike in Hippo usage may be enough to put it a notch above the rest of A+ rank.
AM Edit: Read E rank.
bran edit: :(
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I've always agreed on Manaphy to S especially now. Manaphy has the opportunity to 6-0 a team from turn 1.S Rank?
I'm kinda torn on this, but Manaphy is such a terrifying pokemon right now. I may have a biased opinion since I like using fat teams which are inherently bad against Manaphy. Regardless, I haven't seen discussion on this for a while and the recent spike in Hippo usage may be enough to put it a notch above the rest of A+ rank.
AM Edit: Read E rank.
Sure it's rather rare, but it practically makes stall and bulky o unplayable atm, at the very least needing an absolutely mandatory answer to Manaphy.
Unaware Clefable is an answer but Mega Scizor is so relevant right now and the hazard-centric meta makes Unaware a rather unattractive choice compared to its Magic Guard counterpart.
Manaphy also has very different "counters" so to speak (whatever can counter a mon that hits 700+ spatk in 1 turn with no downside) depending on its set.
Sure Manaphy doesn't come in handy every game, but it practically shuts down what were once very relevant playstyles by simply showing up.
tl;dr Manaphy is that goofy kid that gets a shiny medal for participation but only gets a goal every few games. It just so happens the goals Manaphy does score are incredibly important ones.
Quite a lot of the answers to Manaphy on stall teams are a natural fit anyway. Mega Venusaur can take a +6 ice beam and roar out Manaphy, while AV Slowking is in a similar boat with dragon tail.
Unaware Clefable is still quite good at the moment, though, with Mega Altaria being as omniprescent and all. It also has to get to +3 or +6, and it doesn't necessarily have the best matchup against a lot of leads. In fact, it is madness to try to set up at turn 1. Finally, its 100 base speed and lack of means of boosting its speed hampers the amount of work it can put in against offensive teams, while leaving it prone to revenge killing. It's certainly a credible threat, but I just don't see it as meta defining as Mega Metagross where every team archetype has to pack an answer to it, lest they be turned into a heaping pile of mega gross excrement from a rock polish set, or Mega Charizard X where it becomes VERY difficult to stop at +1.
Manaphy is also very susceptible to being revenge killed. It lacks a way to boost its speed and Choice Scarf is undesirable due to the lack of Tail Glow. It's low base offenses (compared to other sweepers) make Manaphy relatively useless Turn 1. Many archetypes have built-in answers to it, whether it be a phazer or revenge killer. It also is stopped by common defensive threats such as Slowking and M-Venusaur. M-Venusaur already puts a stop to a majority of offensive threats and stacking more will not help. The other S Tier mons are much more threatening, either being able to bring multiple sets and unpredictability or are so threatening with just 1 set/variation of a set, that people need to dedicate at least 1 teamslot to deal with them. Manaphy has never appealed to me as a threatening mon, especially with the Speed Creep of ORAS, it still maintains its old checks like Thundurus, but is now faced with a metagame of faster sweepers like M-Metagross and M-Diancie. The meta is not for or against it, but it still maintains good viability. That being said, until a very favorable meta trend pops up for Manaphy, I can't see it rising to S rank.
OMG, can we please not start the Manaphy debate again? It's been like two weeks since that long trite and we have more than 10 pokemon of interest before we need to consider tackling that again...
And while its not on topic either, I don't support M-Gyarados to S rank. There's no need, it is roughly as effective as it has ever been and A+ is in fact being a bit generous for it. I'd sooner support a drop than a rise but I actually think its fine where it is. It's ironic really, because Gyarados dominates Stall with Taunt sets and Offense with Sub sets, but balance is actually tricky as neither set is as reliable and it requires more team support to really sweep. It's more of a tank really as even with a DD in it still doesn't always feel super fast and the low BP of its STABs means it isn't one shotting many neutral targets even with a boost. Compared to Char-X and M-Altaria who have much higher BP moves, better STABs, and better defensive typing and auto recovery, pretty much means they will and should always be ranked higher than Gyarados itself. Still, Crunch and Waterfall are reliably accurate and have awesome side effects, Gyarados loves having Intimidate before hand and can actually get away with remaining in its base form if need be, which is always fun, and Mold Breaker is still excellent. Great mon, a fave of mine to use, just not S material.
Mega Metagross - I've oscillated back and forth whether it should drop or not, which is funny because I never actually though it deserved S in the first place, mainly because of its horrible STAB combo, no recovery and paltry boosting options compared to Altaria and Char-X. Still, its hard to ignore those phenomenal stats and offensive coverage. But yeah, I think status flying everywhere and Spikes being popular are bad news for its bulk, as if you don't get a Mash boost or have the right coverage you can often be forced out to take more hazard damage, statused and crippled, or simply revenge killed. Yeah, it's time, drop it to A+
Mega Diancie - If I think Metagross should drop down, then to be consistent I think Diancie should drop as well, as I also never really agreed with A+ for it and Diancie is just not on Metagross' level, or Mega Scizor for that matter. I'll be honest, I'm having trouble qualifying that statement, so forgive me if I don't sound terribly convincing.
Ferrothorn - It's always been a solid mon with great typing, but similar to Rotom-W, it can find itself taken advantage of. Next to Skarmory and Chansey this thing is like the biggest Taunt bait, often carrying only a single attack, it often gets its Leftovers Knocked Off, and so many things carry HP Fire specifically for it and Scizor. It very often gets things accomplished and is a good road black for many offensive types and a good Rain check, but like Rotom-W it is still viewed as a nuisance more than a threat. I vote to stay in A
Keldeo - I've never seen this thing as S, I still don't, even acknowledging and appreciating the diversity of its sets, utility and power. But I view all of these positives very similarly as I do Talonflame. These two are surprisingly bulky for fast offensive mon and haze such great power even when you don't invest in offenses. They are the creme of the crop, and likely always will be, but not S material. Keep Keldeo in A+
Gengar - Like the other two, I view Gengar in a very similar vain and pretty much the epitomizing representation of A+ class. While not bulky, with its three immunities and access to fast subterfuge options like WoW, Taunt and Disable it can be surprisingly resilient. All while sitting at the crucial 110 speed tier and having just phenomenal offensive and niche STABs. And like the other two, it has sets out the wazoo, in fact, at least twice as much I'd say! It faces zero competition as a Ghost type as outside of Mega-Sableye, who you can't run if you want a different mega, the closest thing is Gourgeist all the way down in C rank! Unlike some pokemon in A that I view as a nuisance, I legitimately am weary when I see an opposing Gengar, as outside of max speed, you don't know WHAT its running. And it can be something as simple as using Destiny Bond when I try to Pursuit trap with Bisharp that ends up costing me big time.
Celebi - Again, this thing should NOT drop and stay A-. I mean really, a simple SpD set with Thunder Wave/Earth Power, Giga Drain, Nasty Plot and Baton Pass/Earth Power is so deadly. +2 Earth Power destroys would-be threats like Heatran, Tentacruel, Dragalge and Bisharp (who would never use Sucker Punch, almost always Knock Off or Pursuit), and +2 Giga Drain with a Calm spread is offensively potent and easily lets you win against other special pokemon like Clefable, Manectric, Raikou, Sylveon, Reuniclus, Slowbro/king, etc. It's also one of the best Rain checks you could have and is such a good partner for offensive Fire types, particularly Char-X. It's niche is too useful, supporting and handling so many common pokemon that OU staples have trouble with.
And while its not on topic either, I don't support M-Gyarados to S rank. There's no need, it is roughly as effective as it has ever been and A+ is in fact being a bit generous for it. I'd sooner support a drop than a rise but I actually think its fine where it is. It's ironic really, because Gyarados dominates Stall with Taunt sets and Offense with Sub sets, but balance is actually tricky as neither set is as reliable and it requires more team support to really sweep. It's more of a tank really as even with a DD in it still doesn't always feel super fast and the low BP of its STABs means it isn't one shotting many neutral targets even with a boost. Compared to Char-X and M-Altaria who have much higher BP moves, better STABs, and better defensive typing and auto recovery, pretty much means they will and should always be ranked higher than Gyarados itself. Still, Crunch and Waterfall are reliably accurate and have awesome side effects, Gyarados loves having Intimidate before hand and can actually get away with remaining in its base form if need be, which is always fun, and Mold Breaker is still excellent. Great mon, a fave of mine to use, just not S material.
Mega Metagross - I've oscillated back and forth whether it should drop or not, which is funny because I never actually though it deserved S in the first place, mainly because of its horrible STAB combo, no recovery and paltry boosting options compared to Altaria and Char-X. Still, its hard to ignore those phenomenal stats and offensive coverage. But yeah, I think status flying everywhere and Spikes being popular are bad news for its bulk, as if you don't get a Mash boost or have the right coverage you can often be forced out to take more hazard damage, statused and crippled, or simply revenge killed. Yeah, it's time, drop it to A+
Mega Diancie - If I think Metagross should drop down, then to be consistent I think Diancie should drop as well, as I also never really agreed with A+ for it and Diancie is just not on Metagross' level, or Mega Scizor for that matter. I'll be honest, I'm having trouble qualifying that statement, so forgive me if I don't sound terribly convincing.
Ferrothorn - It's always been a solid mon with great typing, but similar to Rotom-W, it can find itself taken advantage of. Next to Skarmory and Chansey this thing is like the biggest Taunt bait, often carrying only a single attack, it often gets its Leftovers Knocked Off, and so many things carry HP Fire specifically for it and Scizor. It very often gets things accomplished and is a good road black for many offensive types and a good Rain check, but like Rotom-W it is still viewed as a nuisance more than a threat. I vote to stay in A
Keldeo - I've never seen this thing as S, I still don't, even acknowledging and appreciating the diversity of its sets, utility and power. But I view all of these positives very similarly as I do Talonflame. These two are surprisingly bulky for fast offensive mon and haze such great power even when you don't invest in offenses. They are the creme of the crop, and likely always will be, but not S material. Keep Keldeo in A+
Gengar - Like the other two, I view Gengar in a very similar vain and pretty much the epitomizing representation of A+ class. While not bulky, with its three immunities and access to fast subterfuge options like WoW, Taunt and Disable it can be surprisingly resilient. All while sitting at the crucial 110 speed tier and having just phenomenal offensive and niche STABs. And like the other two, it has sets out the wazoo, in fact, at least twice as much I'd say! It faces zero competition as a Ghost type as outside of Mega-Sableye, who you can't run if you want a different mega, the closest thing is Gourgeist all the way down in C rank! Unlike some pokemon in A that I view as a nuisance, I legitimately am weary when I see an opposing Gengar, as outside of max speed, you don't know WHAT its running. And it can be something as simple as using Destiny Bond when I try to Pursuit trap with Bisharp that ends up costing me big time.
Celebi - Again, this thing should NOT drop and stay A-. I mean really, a simple SpD set with Thunder Wave/Earth Power, Giga Drain, Nasty Plot and Baton Pass/Earth Power is so deadly. +2 Earth Power destroys would-be threats like Heatran, Tentacruel, Dragalge and Bisharp (who would never use Sucker Punch, almost always Knock Off or Pursuit), and +2 Giga Drain with a Calm spread is offensively potent and easily lets you win against other special pokemon like Clefable, Manectric, Raikou, Sylveon, Reuniclus, Slowbro/king, etc. It's also one of the best Rain checks you could have and is such a good partner for offensive Fire types, particularly Char-X. It's niche is too useful, supporting and handling so many common pokemon that OU staples have trouble with.
I read a couple coment above so here my thoughs
- Mega Gross to A+ im totally disagree with this just because helmet chomp is around doesnt mean this pokemons should drop, Tough Claw boost is just too much for drop it of rank, ok so let's think in the way of helmet chomp wasnt popular what happens ? Yeah this monster become a huge threat and prob people want a suspect again. Meteor Mash has a good chance to 2HKO after rocks + spikes helmet chomp, so you only add healing wish support and the threat is back, has incredible bulk, one of the best speed tier in the metagame, priority, good coverage, even set up moves so when you think about it this thing is a beast.
- Azumarril to S, im not sure about this but im not agaisnt it too. I mean has a great potential in the current meta where Sand offense, Hippo, helmet chomp, weaviles are running around, even you can run PuP to beat Clef kinda.
- And last Mega Gyara2 and Mega Diancie should stay in the current rank, yeah they're powerfull but still are easy to handle without switch in around. For example Ferrothorn easy beat this two.
Well since the team will be voting soon I'll take this opportunity to get some last thoughts in to sway their decisions on some discussion points.
Mega Metagross- Ok I'll admit I was adamantly against it dropping it to A+ a few days ago and since have felt unsure before i really thought about it. One of the better arguments for Dropping it to A+ was dice's where it was explained megagross is not as splashable as the other 3 S ranks but I wasn't entirely convinced that was enough to drop it considering its main role is an offensive wallbreaker. But yea the idea that bulky chomp lowers its viability rather than being a resasonable conformity to is flawed in the sense that as DennisEG explained earlier meteor mash does roughly 45 percent to it and chomp has no recovery to stay healthy for when gross is ready to start its onslaught. In any case bulky chomp gets worn down just as fast metgarosss would and thats not even considering ice punch which ohkoes. Bulky chomp in general has become a blanket check on pretty much all the physical attackers in the tier because even if they hit it super effectively that rough skin + rocky helmet still takes its toll. So in that regard i dont see us dropping megagross down to A+ when there are things in that rank that stand no chance against chomp at all. (looking at you mega scizor and bisharp) if this is the argument for dropping gross. similarily I've been seeing some rocky helmet defensive landorous Therians to help check against zard which is taking flare blitz recoil so lest we drop zard x over that. For those that say it doesnt break balance as effectively with its AoA set. This was bound to happen as the meta adapted to it, but realistically the cores in question (particuarly skarm /hippo) that supposedly lower gross's viability are still pretty situational ( as skarmory needs counter when that slot has competition with iron head and brave bird ) and the fact u need two of these hard stops to even secure a chance of stopping it shows the impact gross has. Metagross is guaranteed to lure and beat AT LEAST one of those in the core whether its grass knot for hippo or thunder punch for skarm which opens up a hole for something like thundy to just break through the team and gross has done its job as a wallbreaker. The main problem i see with gross is that its dual stabs are kind of necessarry and provide awkward coverage and giving it only 2 other slots to work with for the variety of stuff that wall the dual stab but considering that zen headbutt + meteor mash murder the rest of the tier i feel like it balances it out given its high immediate speed (base 110 is still good) and bulk. But people haven't also paid attention to other viable sets metagross has like rock polish which makes it even more deadly vs offense (though at the cost of some wall breaking prowess), sub pup, pursuit support, and hone claws so all in all i find metagross a team player that supports the team while supporting itself as it cheeses through teams with meteor mash boosts. Consider mega kanga who was a lot more splash able who also forced rocky helmet adaptations when you use bulky chomp and other rocky helmet users as a counterargument. Metagross is obviously not as extreme, but thats why i think it should Stay in S versus being banned rather than being dropped to A+, because thats skipping the middle ground as i said before. I do agree again that its not quite as strong as zard x and mega altaria So S rank does seem a little out of place if its putting them as equals in respective roles but the difference between them isn't a sub rank at the same time.
Gengar - Ok i see absolutely no reason for this to drop. Gengar is still very scarce on switchins. The few switchins this has include av tornadus, spdef gliscor , spdef hippo, spdef scizor, and spdef mega sabeleye. Then you consider that av tornadus and gliscor get bopped by icy wind and hex sets, spdef hippo gets bopped by will o hex, spdef scizor gets bodied by will o hex. Chansey a staple on stall gets bodied by taunt and can also get outstalled. Gengar is also a really nice check to mega alt and clefable. So the main things gengar struggles with is mega sabeleye, one mon; and also being a glass cannon which was already considered when it rose to A+, so that doesnt matter now. The only problem for gengar thats sort of new is that there is another pursuit trapper for it in weavile. considering weavile doesnt switch in like at all , i dont think gengar should drop from A+.
Mega Diancie- Ok this one is tricky. Diancie is something i have found underwhelming in practice in some games where as in others it was the mvp with that moonblast coming off base 160 spa. MY main issue with diancie in this meta is that its really good sets that are A+ worthy in theory such as the rock polish set and CM/ sharpen usually dont work in practice and i think thats the source of doubt. the meta is filled with bulky grounds and steel types and without protect i find that mega diancie, while it can switch into a lot of the tier, still somehow really struggles to get off a safe mega evolution. Because the majority of rocks setters and spikes setters are steel and ground this also greatly limits the utility of mega bounce since it cannot safely keep hazards off the field unlike mega sabeleye. A good selling point for diancie is that it is still able to lure steel types that are in high abundance between earth power and hidden power fire, but even so particularly for hidden power fire its prediction reliant especially when matched up against scizor. However, I still find that diancie despite its short comings is a unique fairy type in being able to deal with talon flame well especially the stall breaker sets that have come into large popularity and if u can safely mega evolve, its rock polish set is very deadly versus offense since it hits like a truck. But with zard x being a very potent threat atm i find diancie to be a good check to it (although it struggles versus a +1 zard) and diancie should stay A+.
Ferrothorn- I do agree that ferrothorn really is a nuisance more so than a threat. Its not the most passive for a bulky mon as power whip and gyro ball hit decently hard. I find that ferrothorn however is still really taunt bait and it's a tank that has no reliable recovery so it will get worn down even faster than mega venu in some case by burns from rotom wash for example while also sponging many hits since as a steel type its dual role is checking the fairies and dragons. However i still find ferrothorn to be a great spikes setter, and i find that while hard to fit , thunder waves allows it to not give free turns to mons such as zard y and char x, if you can fit it. But even so i find ferrothorn to annoy the opponent just enough before it goes down. Magnezone / magneton being everywhere dont really help its case either unless you run SD bulldoze. So I'm inclined to keep ferrothorn in A.
Hippodown- Hippowdown has pretty much become the face of balance at this point. IT checks threats ranging from zard x and thundy to bisharp and mega lopunny with insane bulk and reliable recovery to back it up. its EQ still hits harder than your average passive mon as well. IT utilizes the free turns it gets to set up SR and also can phaze things out like mega scizor who otherwise use it as setup fodder, while also alternatively packing stone edge to threaten the birds. Lets not forget the popularity of sand offense and thanks to sand stream it can easily provide that support to mega chomp and excadrill. Since hippowdown walls so many threats it is also a double edge sword as in practice i find it to get lured and overwhelmed quickly by say the core of metagross + thundy especially if one is carry grass knot or nasty plot on thundy. MY only other reseveration about hippo in A+ is that it faces competition from bulky chomp as a bulky ground , as bulky chomp maintains more offensive prowess and a better speed tier even while phazing with dragon tail and also wearing down physical attackers with rough skin + rocky helmet, toxic and endure, and having stone edge and fire blast to cover threats for the team. Of course chomp has no recovery and such. So I'm not 100 percent sure if hippo should go to A+ considering this but i would be fine if it happens.
Serperior- Serperior is something that I've actually found pretty useful lately, it pairs well with zard x right now which is a top threat. Sitting at a comfortable base 113 speed and spamming off leaf storms while simultaneously boosting is a great appeal for serperior as it hits resists really hard after a few boosts. Serperior has a plethoera of options for luring its switchins including glare , knock off for chansey and av tornadus, and taunt for stall in general. Serperior however is still weak without a boost so it must be able to fire off a leaf storm first in order to threaten its checks like mega scizor as otherwise its coverage moves are just piss weak. I think serperior can fit in A so wouldnt mind a rise considering its not as one dimensional as some of the stuff in A- currently while also boasting a neutrality to rocks.
Keldeo- I feel like he is in a similar boat to megagross as where in the meta its checks and counters are abundant. I feel that it has a similar issue in that while its dual stab provide great wall breaking its also akward in the sense that many staples on balance naturally wall it, and its coverage options are weak hidden powers or similarily weak moves . EX : 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 126-150 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. It also barely 2hkos regular latias with icy wind. So i find that unlike metagross who has coverage moves that actually secure 2hkos across the board against supposed checks keldeo cant effectively break through its checks without that 30 percent chance, it just doesnt seem convincing for S rank, especially when u consider most of its switchins have regenerator, are special attackers, are faster, or have natural cure or heal bell so its not like the scald burns invalidate them it just wears them down a bit quicker.
Rotom Wash- Rotom wash is really a nuisance more so than a threat in that its easy to wear down and really cant wall much of the meta like it used to, as even mons on bird spam put it out of commission which its supposed to counter. Rotom wash still serves as a solid pivot that can last long enough to spread wisps and also maintain momentum for the team, but its very reliant on leftiez and the unreliable pain split to surive the onslaught of the hard hitters it ideally should wall. Its set up fodder for zard x , refresh altaria, and CM Clefable so sometimes it can be a huge liability. I wouldn't mind it dropping to A-, but one of things i do appreciate from rotom wash is its ability to check weather offense well, be it sand or rain. However then u consider everything on rain can get past it or outlast it bar mega swampert and that SD excadrill can overwhelm it, its just not that effective.
Magneton - Honestly i do think it deserves a rise to be at least a bit closer to magnezone. While magnezone boasts better stats overall, magnezone's speed really dissapoints me in practice as it is unable to outspeed anything b base 115 and higher and the ORAS speed creep makes magnezone pretty sub par as a scarfer considering that at least magneton can outspeed huge threats like tornadus , weavile, and talonflame.
Mega Metagross- Ok I'll admit I was adamantly against it dropping it to A+ a few days ago and since have felt unsure before i really thought about it. One of the better arguments for Dropping it to A+ was dice's where it was explained megagross is not as splashable as the other 3 S ranks but I wasn't entirely convinced that was enough to drop it considering its main role is an offensive wallbreaker. But yea the idea that bulky chomp lowers its viability rather than being a resasonable conformity to is flawed in the sense that as DennisEG explained earlier meteor mash does roughly 45 percent to it and chomp has no recovery to stay healthy for when gross is ready to start its onslaught. In any case bulky chomp gets worn down just as fast metgarosss would and thats not even considering ice punch which ohkoes. Bulky chomp in general has become a blanket check on pretty much all the physical attackers in the tier because even if they hit it super effectively that rough skin + rocky helmet still takes its toll. So in that regard i dont see us dropping megagross down to A+ when there are things in that rank that stand no chance against chomp at all. (looking at you mega scizor and bisharp) if this is the argument for dropping gross. similarily I've been seeing some rocky helmet defensive landorous Therians to help check against zard which is taking flare blitz recoil so lest we drop zard x over that. For those that say it doesnt break balance as effectively with its AoA set. This was bound to happen as the meta adapted to it, but realistically the cores in question (particuarly skarm /hippo) that supposedly lower gross's viability are still pretty situational ( as skarmory needs counter when that slot has competition with iron head and brave bird ) and the fact u need two of these hard stops to even secure a chance of stopping it shows the impact gross has. Metagross is guaranteed to lure and beat AT LEAST one of those in the core whether its grass knot for hippo or thunder punch for skarm which opens up a hole for something like thundy to just break through the team and gross has done its job as a wallbreaker. The main problem i see with gross is that its dual stabs are kind of necessarry and provide awkward coverage and giving it only 2 other slots to work with for the variety of stuff that wall the dual stab but considering that zen headbutt + meteor mash murder the rest of the tier i feel like it balances it out given its high immediate speed (base 110 is still good) and bulk. But people haven't also paid attention to other viable sets metagross has like rock polish which makes it even more deadly vs offense (though at the cost of some wall breaking prowess), sub pup, pursuit support, and hone claws so all in all i find metagross a team player that supports the team while supporting itself as it cheeses through teams with meteor mash boosts. Consider mega kanga who was a lot more splash able who also forced rocky helmet adaptations when you use bulky chomp and other rocky helmet users as a counterargument. Metagross is obviously not as extreme, but thats why i think it should Stay in S versus being banned rather than being dropped to A+, because thats skipping the middle ground as i said before. I do agree again that its not quite as strong as zard x and mega altaria So S rank does seem a little out of place if its putting them as equals in respective roles but the difference between them isn't a sub rank at the same time.
Gengar - Ok i see absolutely no reason for this to drop. Gengar is still very scarce on switchins. The few switchins this has include av tornadus, spdef gliscor , spdef hippo, spdef scizor, and spdef mega sabeleye. Then you consider that av tornadus and gliscor get bopped by icy wind and hex sets, spdef hippo gets bopped by will o hex, spdef scizor gets bodied by will o hex. Chansey a staple on stall gets bodied by taunt and can also get outstalled. Gengar is also a really nice check to mega alt and clefable. So the main things gengar struggles with is mega sabeleye, one mon; and also being a glass cannon which was already considered when it rose to A+, so that doesnt matter now. The only problem for gengar thats sort of new is that there is another pursuit trapper for it in weavile. considering weavile doesnt switch in like at all , i dont think gengar should drop from A+.
Mega Diancie- Ok this one is tricky. Diancie is something i have found underwhelming in practice in some games where as in others it was the mvp with that moonblast coming off base 160 spa. MY main issue with diancie in this meta is that its really good sets that are A+ worthy in theory such as the rock polish set and CM/ sharpen usually dont work in practice and i think thats the source of doubt. the meta is filled with bulky grounds and steel types and without protect i find that mega diancie, while it can switch into a lot of the tier, still somehow really struggles to get off a safe mega evolution. Because the majority of rocks setters and spikes setters are steel and ground this also greatly limits the utility of mega bounce since it cannot safely keep hazards off the field unlike mega sabeleye. A good selling point for diancie is that it is still able to lure steel types that are in high abundance between earth power and hidden power fire, but even so particularly for hidden power fire its prediction reliant especially when matched up against scizor. However, I still find that diancie despite its short comings is a unique fairy type in being able to deal with talon flame well especially the stall breaker sets that have come into large popularity and if u can safely mega evolve, its rock polish set is very deadly versus offense since it hits like a truck. But with zard x being a very potent threat atm i find diancie to be a good check to it (although it struggles versus a +1 zard) and diancie should stay A+.
Ferrothorn- I do agree that ferrothorn really is a nuisance more so than a threat. Its not the most passive for a bulky mon as power whip and gyro ball hit decently hard. I find that ferrothorn however is still really taunt bait and it's a tank that has no reliable recovery so it will get worn down even faster than mega venu in some case by burns from rotom wash for example while also sponging many hits since as a steel type its dual role is checking the fairies and dragons. However i still find ferrothorn to be a great spikes setter, and i find that while hard to fit , thunder waves allows it to not give free turns to mons such as zard y and char x, if you can fit it. But even so i find ferrothorn to annoy the opponent just enough before it goes down. Magnezone / magneton being everywhere dont really help its case either unless you run SD bulldoze. So I'm inclined to keep ferrothorn in A.
Hippodown- Hippowdown has pretty much become the face of balance at this point. IT checks threats ranging from zard x and thundy to bisharp and mega lopunny with insane bulk and reliable recovery to back it up. its EQ still hits harder than your average passive mon as well. IT utilizes the free turns it gets to set up SR and also can phaze things out like mega scizor who otherwise use it as setup fodder, while also alternatively packing stone edge to threaten the birds. Lets not forget the popularity of sand offense and thanks to sand stream it can easily provide that support to mega chomp and excadrill. Since hippowdown walls so many threats it is also a double edge sword as in practice i find it to get lured and overwhelmed quickly by say the core of metagross + thundy especially if one is carry grass knot or nasty plot on thundy. MY only other reseveration about hippo in A+ is that it faces competition from bulky chomp as a bulky ground , as bulky chomp maintains more offensive prowess and a better speed tier even while phazing with dragon tail and also wearing down physical attackers with rough skin + rocky helmet, toxic and endure, and having stone edge and fire blast to cover threats for the team. Of course chomp has no recovery and such. So I'm not 100 percent sure if hippo should go to A+ considering this but i would be fine if it happens.
Serperior- Serperior is something that I've actually found pretty useful lately, it pairs well with zard x right now which is a top threat. Sitting at a comfortable base 113 speed and spamming off leaf storms while simultaneously boosting is a great appeal for serperior as it hits resists really hard after a few boosts. Serperior has a plethoera of options for luring its switchins including glare , knock off for chansey and av tornadus, and taunt for stall in general. Serperior however is still weak without a boost so it must be able to fire off a leaf storm first in order to threaten its checks like mega scizor as otherwise its coverage moves are just piss weak. I think serperior can fit in A so wouldnt mind a rise considering its not as one dimensional as some of the stuff in A- currently while also boasting a neutrality to rocks.
Keldeo- I feel like he is in a similar boat to megagross as where in the meta its checks and counters are abundant. I feel that it has a similar issue in that while its dual stab provide great wall breaking its also akward in the sense that many staples on balance naturally wall it, and its coverage options are weak hidden powers or similarily weak moves . EX : 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 126-150 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. It also barely 2hkos regular latias with icy wind. So i find that unlike metagross who has coverage moves that actually secure 2hkos across the board against supposed checks keldeo cant effectively break through its checks without that 30 percent chance, it just doesnt seem convincing for S rank, especially when u consider most of its switchins have regenerator, are special attackers, are faster, or have natural cure or heal bell so its not like the scald burns invalidate them it just wears them down a bit quicker.
Rotom Wash- Rotom wash is really a nuisance more so than a threat in that its easy to wear down and really cant wall much of the meta like it used to, as even mons on bird spam put it out of commission which its supposed to counter. Rotom wash still serves as a solid pivot that can last long enough to spread wisps and also maintain momentum for the team, but its very reliant on leftiez and the unreliable pain split to surive the onslaught of the hard hitters it ideally should wall. Its set up fodder for zard x , refresh altaria, and CM Clefable so sometimes it can be a huge liability. I wouldn't mind it dropping to A-, but one of things i do appreciate from rotom wash is its ability to check weather offense well, be it sand or rain. However then u consider everything on rain can get past it or outlast it bar mega swampert and that SD excadrill can overwhelm it, its just not that effective.
Magneton - Honestly i do think it deserves a rise to be at least a bit closer to magnezone. While magnezone boasts better stats overall, magnezone's speed really dissapoints me in practice as it is unable to outspeed anything b base 115 and higher and the ORAS speed creep makes magnezone pretty sub par as a scarfer considering that at least magneton can outspeed huge threats like tornadus , weavile, and talonflame.
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This is probably a very controversial nom, but I'm going to propose we move Bisharp down to A rank.
Basically, due to the recent metagame trends, bisharp is a lot less effective than it was previously. With Hippowdon, TankChomp, Zard X, Weaville, Torn-T and M-Scizor rising in usage, Bisharp really isn't finding the same ease it used to before these trends. In a way, it faces the same problems as Mega Metagross, as so many walls have risen in usage. Will-O-Wisp Talonflame is everywhere, and a lot of things stop it from sweeping. Both Weaville and Tornadus-T also carry coverage that can OHKO it, reducing its viability. In addition, the metagame has now focused a lot around Spinners, rather than Defoggers, reducing its ability to come in on Defogs and punish the opposing team. What are your thoughts?
Basically, due to the recent metagame trends, bisharp is a lot less effective than it was previously. With Hippowdon, TankChomp, Zard X, Weaville, Torn-T and M-Scizor rising in usage, Bisharp really isn't finding the same ease it used to before these trends. In a way, it faces the same problems as Mega Metagross, as so many walls have risen in usage. Will-O-Wisp Talonflame is everywhere, and a lot of things stop it from sweeping. Both Weaville and Tornadus-T also carry coverage that can OHKO it, reducing its viability. In addition, the metagame has now focused a lot around Spinners, rather than Defoggers, reducing its ability to come in on Defogs and punish the opposing team. What are your thoughts?
Defog still exists as latias and latios are common. The two main OU spinners are starmie and excadrill, and sucker punch stops starmie from spinning unless its reflect type , and excadrill doesnt exactly get a safe rapid spin as the prediction goes both ways and bisharp can easily get up an SD. Bisharp imo is the face of HO in how it has two very spammable stabs and a good defensive typing despite being not particularly bulky while also keeping its teams hazards on the field by discouraging the opponent from defogging. Realistically only 3 moves are guaranteed on bisharp, and that is iron head sucker punch and knock off. The last move can be pursuit or SD, or niche options like grass knot , taunt, and low kick. Tank chomp being a trend annoys bisharp in particular but it affects a lot of the physical attackers in the tier and i don't see the value in the idea of dropping all physical attackers a sub rank because of that lol. Bisharp also doesnt really care about weavile and and tornadus as much as you think and they certainly don't lower its viability.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 257-304 (91.4 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO Gone after rocks although its a 50/50 with ice shard.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 437-515 (135.2 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bulky wisp zard talon flame and bulky scizor and defensive skarmory are problems but those are things that already existed for a while as bisharp fluctuated between A + and S during its tenure in Xy and I'm sure were accounted for during its rankings in ORAS so nothing has really changed. It doesn't have the glaring flaws of some of the mons currently in A and isnt really a one trick pony either as it forces many 50/50s and is able to support its team immensely while pouring on offensive pressure.
Obviously defog is not as common on HO as it was when Bisharp was at its prime, which influences its viability. Yes, I will concede that it pressures starmie to spin, forcing 50/50s, or you could just switch out. As far as Exca goes, it wins the prediction argument a majority of the time, having access to SD and bisharp failing to OHKO unless it carries Low Kick.
Your personal opinion that Bisharp is the so-called "face of HO" is irrelevant in this case. While it is used commonly, its use in HO isn't all it is used for. Niche move options in order to help it sweep only hit a couple mons at best (except for low kick).
As far as metagame trends go, Garchomp is indeed a major threat to Bisharp. However you failed to mention the rise of Hippowdon as a counter as well. While Zard X and Bulky Scizor have technically existed at the same time period as Bisharp, I am talking about new metagame trends. Obviously Zard X is great in this meta, hence its rise to S rank. For Bulky Scizor, this thing is a surefire reason that Bisharp should drop. If people can ride its hype train enough to think that Mega Metagross should drop because of it, Bisharp should too.
The calcs you mentioned don't even take into account the difficulty that Bisharp has in setting up, and how it is countered by Keldeo (which is on its own push to S rank).
I actually have been considering this for a while now but does anyone think Mega Lopunny might just drop from A+ to A? I mean no doubt she is good but the problem lies in the very same trends that have been rather adverse to MMGross namely the rise of Tank Chomp (even rocky helmet Skarmory) + Hippowdon + Ferrothorn (subsequently sand storm) and hazard stacking balance teams? I've had more difficulty utilizing either her Fake Set or PuP set in so much that you are punished rather harshly by the passive damage from all the rough skin/iron barb/rocky helmet combos floating around add that with say passive damage in sand and it becomes incredibly difficult to punch holes through teams without losing your win con. More often than not these things usually go hand in hand which can make it rather infuriating when you continually lose HP due to passive damage, and worse yet I believe all the relevant offensive moves of MLop are direct contact. This matters even more when your HJK misses on a switch in, this makes preserving MLop even more an uphill battle.
I find this trend to be even more infuriating to deal with than Lando-T because at least its easier to preserve MLop for future use. Whereas, the current trend it can be tough to keep her healthy, and given her bulk it certainly does her no favors. If anything I find her more constrained by the trends more so than MMGross, incidentally I do think most of these trends arose from dealing with MLop during the Aegis suspect test and stayed on since...
I really don't feel the current environment is friendly towards MLop.
I find this trend to be even more infuriating to deal with than Lando-T because at least its easier to preserve MLop for future use. Whereas, the current trend it can be tough to keep her healthy, and given her bulk it certainly does her no favors. If anything I find her more constrained by the trends more so than MMGross, incidentally I do think most of these trends arose from dealing with MLop during the Aegis suspect test and stayed on since...
I really don't feel the current environment is friendly towards MLop.
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All you're telling me is that it's struggling with balance. Sure, maybe with rocky chomp it ends up with more passive damage but after an ice punch and 40% damage it can get back to wrecking offense.
which is its job
which it is still doing perfectly fine.
If anything, the way I see it is you ice punch the rocky helm chomp and you can be on your way to thrashing the rest of the mlop weak team.
That is kinda the point though those teams ARE on the rise, which is why in the first place Manaphy for instance has been gaining more popularity and prior to that with the banning of a major issue to balance in the form of Lando-I. While she still does her job against offense I wouldn't ignore that balance or more defensive teams are on the rise with breathing space given to them. Hence, why I mention the environment in the first place, bringing up that it is has become less friendly to MLop.
I know she's always had more issues with defensive teams but with defensive teams rising, or at least balance, I find it less manageable to use MLop in dealing with more prominent defensive cores.
I think you're also simplifying the bigger issue with so much passive damage wracking up on MLop even against offensive teams. It leaves her more vulnerable to neutral priority revenge killing her -- that chip damage matters. Suddenly you're in range for Scizor/Azu or even Bisharp's priority to take out MLop.
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Keep in mind that Mega Lopunny isn't necessarily deadweight against fatter builds with Sub+PuP, which arguably loses some effectiveness against offense but can still do a decent job against either. It definitely doesn't auto-win against balance but it isn't necessarily deadweight even with the AoA build and definitely isn't with Sub+PuP.
I think you misunderstand its not that I am claiming her to be dead weight rather it becomes an uphill battle to effectively use her, because of how easily she becomes penalized. Dead weight is entirely different from claiming her to have difficulty, my connotation is as I emphasized earlier it becomes much harder to preserve her as a win-con or to punch holes.
Dead weight is an exaggeration here since I'm just looking at whether she is as effective given the current environment. Sub-PuP still won't solve the issue that you'd still burn your HP fast. Her sets (Fake out/PuP/Sub) simply don't circumvent the current trends of passive damage is what I notice precisely because her relevant offensive moves are contact based.
Edit: Even Ice punch doesn't solve the issue with Rocky Helmet Garchomp because that is a 2HKO at best meaning you've lost 60% of your life in the process. Which leaves you in range for a Bullet Punch or Aqua jet. Worse yet if HJK screws you over after those 2 hits you get the point.
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Okay, that makes sense (No sarcasm). It's pretty true, it does seem like chip damage gets on it really easily.
Chip damage matters even more when you consider that after 2 hits on Bulky Chomp any HJK miss is fatal at that point. You could try drain punch obviously that is a huge downside in terms of power lost, which sadly is still important because you'll everything you can get in breaking through defensive cores.
Even that set can be dead weight if the opposing balance team's Hippo or Skarmory happens to pack Whirlwind (which they should, if the rest of the team is weak to MLop).
I've not used MLop enough to have an opinion on whether or not it should drop (I'm only chiming in because I'm a Hippo balance player who's caught plenty of SubPuP MLops off-guard), but even MMeta is facing a drop, and MMeta has a reliable way around Hippo.
As a once avid mLop player, I'd be okay with the drop to A. It does have some decently difficult time breaking down many balance builds, and if it's SubPuP, offense has a field day with it. I mean, if we're going to talk about dropping MegaGross for the abundance of mons that have caused it to be adapted to, then mLop should drop as well, since those same Pokemon cause just as much if not more problems for Mega Lopunny. Don't get me wrong, mLop is still a great Pokemon, but with recent metagame trends, since that is a HUGE factor all of the sudden, bigger than the Pokemon's ability to punch holes the size of Saturn apparently, I think it warrants a drop. Alright, megagross salt aside, if we really are factoring in these recent defensive "adaptations" to the meta, Mega Lopunny is very deserving of a drop.
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The popularity of Tankchomp and Hippowdon is in my opinion not a valid reason to drop it to A. Actually, I think the popularity of these two pokemon (+ Clefable) is the reason why it is not S rank at the moment. PuP sets threaten so many balanced cores as even good checks like Hippo and Clef can't counter them because they fail to OHKO Lopunny in return and offensive teams lose to almost every set of Mega Lopunny. Even stall struggles against SubPuP, Baton Pass or Encore set and as long as you have one of these moves, you are a big threat to almost any team because of a nice speed tier, unresisted STAB moves and a great support movepool. Lopunny A+ ---> A+
SubPuP isn't even that amazing against balance in my experience, although I guess it depends on the build. For me it has been PuP + Encore that puts in work against balance. I wouldn't say that offense has a field day against the sets without Fake Out since Lopunny can still Mega Evolve against something slower than it (base 105 isn't shoddy). Fake Out is a nice buffer against some priority users and helps get chip damage but ultimately the speed tier allows it to still put in work.
I think the first obvious comparison here is Mega Manectric; both share the same speed tier and are known for terrorizing offense but struggling against balance. I think the difference is that Manectric is really only hard stopped by Hippowdon on balance (it can Volt Switch out of everything else), whereas Mega Lopunny has problems handling a bunch of things such as Slowbro, Mega Scizor, Clefable and some others. On the other hand Lopunny has been better than Manectric for a while now simply because of its higher base power STAB moves and perfect coverage between them. This opens up the last two slots for whatever you want. While AoA sets have been the gold standard for a while there are plenty of other nice options that Mega Lopunny can run that offer team support or utility.
Even though balance has gotten better with the banning of Landorus, I personally believe offense is still a stronger playstyle anyway. I haven't really been using Lopunny in this metagame so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt but I still see it as an A+ rank threat.
I think the first obvious comparison here is Mega Manectric; both share the same speed tier and are known for terrorizing offense but struggling against balance. I think the difference is that Manectric is really only hard stopped by Hippowdon on balance (it can Volt Switch out of everything else), whereas Mega Lopunny has problems handling a bunch of things such as Slowbro, Mega Scizor, Clefable and some others. On the other hand Lopunny has been better than Manectric for a while now simply because of its higher base power STAB moves and perfect coverage between them. This opens up the last two slots for whatever you want. While AoA sets have been the gold standard for a while there are plenty of other nice options that Mega Lopunny can run that offer team support or utility.
Even though balance has gotten better with the banning of Landorus, I personally believe offense is still a stronger playstyle anyway. I haven't really been using Lopunny in this metagame so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt but I still see it as an A+ rank threat.
I think this is all nice and fine on paper but it certainly isn't as friendly in practice when Hippo and Clef aren't dangerous because they can revenge kill MLop rather it is the imminent threat of TW or Whirlwind that you should be wary of, which ends up neutering MLop. Let alone this also ignores the entire point of why I found the passive damage to be crucial, it suddenly leaves MLop more vulnerable to being knocked out.
Moreover, I'm not simply looking at the rise of fat things aside defensive cores that she already had difficulty dealing with. I'm looking at the popularity of passive damage that essentially punishes MLop regardless of whether you clicked the right offensive move for the switch in or what have you. This matters more against a mon that certainly was not built to take hit and whose STAB move has a chance at 50% recoil, meaning more so every bit of HP counts.
When you lose 30% of your HP suddenly that Moonblast can OHKO you.
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 204-242 (75.2 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Whereas your +1 fails to OHKO.
+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Whereas Hippowdon is also more or less the same scenario:
+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 229-271 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 126-148 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Whereas your +1 fails to OHKO.
+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Whereas Hippowdon is also more or less the same scenario:
+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 229-271 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 126-148 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Your sweep is cut short regardless because of passive damage.
I think this misunderstanding is thinking that MLop's inherent difficulty with defensive builds when in fact it stems more from trends adapted to by all play styles, which are all the same trends that negatively affect MGross. It is just that these trends are more hostile to a mon with less bulk and potential 50% recoil with nothing to really circumvent or cushion these trends.
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