Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

Status
Not open for further replies.
Can't really compare Mega Zam to Gengar because the only thing hey have in common is the fast Special attacker aspect as thhey are both on teams to beat different types of playstyles. Gengar puts in massive work against balance which is the standard team archetype rn and has much more splashability since he isn't mega. Saying that they are similar isn't a strong argument. Also after seeing soem other stuff about Zam he probably won't be a top tier mon until theres another meta shift towards offence maybe with the unbanning of Deo forms.

Other stuff

Serperior: No reason to not rise to A since it absolutely tosses most balance teams late game and has glare to lure things like torn-t that are everywhere.
-->A

Tangrowth: Good glue and pivot With great movepool. Definitely outclasses Ches and Amoongus as bulky grass types with more splashability on its av set.
-->B

 
A fraction of a percent stronger on a move 5 BP stronger than the other isnt anything relevant at all. Regardless, youre comparing two completely different mons in terms of purpose, the only similarities they share are that they are special attackers and both evolve through trading lol. The differences are that one destroys fast offensive teams and weather teams thanks to an insane speed stat and ability while the other destroys balance and stall. I dont think Zam should move up either mainly because of the need for a mega slot and general frailty but deliberately omitting key details doesnt help anybodies case.
The comparison between the two was because Gengar is in A+ and Zam is only in A, which you would know if you read the conversation instead of jumped in to quote me and nit pick me despite agreeing with my point.
 
The comparison between the two was because Gengar is in A+ and Zam is only in A, which you would know if you read the conversation instead of jumped in to quote me and nit pick me despite agreeing with my point.
You seem to miss the point of what a comparison is, its not nitpicking if you made an entire post which was flat out wrong. If you wanted to compare them because of rank, show that one is more effective at fulfilling its own niche and is hence a higher rank or show that meta trends indicate that Gengars abilities as a balance beater is more valuable atm compared to the ability to beat offense. What you did is compare them both in something that Gengar excels at which zam doesnt, breaking balance and stall. How can you compare two things with different roles that way and expect it to not be picked up on. Its like saying planes are better than cars because they go faster when theres a whole host of scenarios when you would rather use a car.
 
You seem to miss the point of what a comparison is, its not nitpicking if you made an entire post which was flat out wrong. If you wanted to compare them because of rank, show that one is more effective at fulfilling its own niche and is hence a higher rank or show that meta trends indicate that Gengars abilities as a balance beater is more valuable atm compared to the ability to beat offense. What you did is compare them both in something that Gengar excels at which zam doesnt, breaking balance and stall. How can you compare two things with different roles that way and expect it to not be picked up on. Its like saying planes are better than cars because they go faster when theres a whole host of scenarios when you would rather use a car.
You are interpreting my post incorrectly. I mentioned that Gengar beats stall and balance more efficiently then Zam, because he does, and I also mentioned that Gengar can be placed on more teams as a glue mon. I also said that Zam takes up a mega slot and must be built around. Those were the 3 reasons that I gave yet you are nitpicking just one and saying I'm "wrong" for not also mentioning that Zam is also good at other things. I don't need to mention that. I'm making an argument that Zam is NOT as good.

You agree with me that Gengar is A+ and Zam is A, so this discussion is literally a waste of space and anyone who is reading it probably wants to shoot themselves.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Unrelated to the above but I am going to acknowledge that the 2 pokemon I'm about to talk about are different, yet deserve a comparison for some simple reasons. The mons I'm talking about are Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor. The similarities are obvious: bulky steel type megas with offensive presence.

I think in this current metagame that Metagross is not better than Scizor and shouldn't be a sub-rank above it. Here's a basic pros and cons list:

Metagross:
- Much higher speed tier
- Much better coverage with its moves
- Stronger off the bat thanks to Tough Claws
- Better STAB combo, higher base power moves

Scizor:
- Access to Roost and Swords Dance, 2 moves that make it a great bulky setup sweeper
- Does not rely on its speed tier so it can invest in its bulk, making it much harder to revenge kill
- Checks more things thanks to its bulk investment and ability to recover
- Far better defensive typing

In an offensively oriented metagame like this one (yeah I said it, balance is good but offense is still the gold standard), Scizor poses more of a threat most of the time in my opinion. While Metagross is very bulky and difficult to OHKO, once it has been worn down a little bit (RH Chomp anyone?) it is quite simple to revenge kill since many things above the 110 speed tier have become quite popular. On the other hand, while Scizor is hard stopped by certain things and lacks coverage to break past its counters, it has the ability to check/counter things much more reliably than Metagross. Also if it is able to set up a Swords Dance or two, Bullet Punch is able to clean up weakened resists pretty easily. This combination of bulk and revenge killing ability makes it more valuable as a glue for teams and also more potent late game since fast mons are abundant but priority is hard to avoid. On top of that, many of the pokemon that Metagross is an offensive check to (fairies like Mega Gardevoir, DD Mega Altaria, etc) are actually checked better (countered, in most cases) by Scizor simply because it can repeatedly switch in and Roost off the damage.

I'm not specifically arguing for Metagross to drop or for Scizor to rise (haven't really considered this one too heavily), but I don't think they should be separated by a sub-rank when I feel that Scizor is more effective right now.
 
Last edited:

Reymedy

ne craint personne
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
You are interpreting my post incorrectly. I mentioned that Gengar beats stall and balance more efficiently then Zam, because he does, and I also mentioned that Gengar can be placed on more teams as a glue mon. I also said that Zam takes up a mega slot and must be built around. Those were the 3 reasons that I gave yet you are nitpicking just one and saying I'm "wrong" for not also mentioning that Zam is also good at other things. I don't need to mention that. I'm making an argument that Zam is NOT as good.

You agree with me that Gengar is A+ and Zam is A, so this discussion is literally a waste of space and anyone who is reading it probably wants to shoot themselves.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Nominating Scizor for B+/A-
No, it's not Mega Scizor, but normal Scizor is still pretty amazing right now. Choice Band and Life Orb sets hit super hard, and U-Turn is awesome for the momentum and it's pretty powerful as well. Bullet Punch is always awesome for revenging weakened threats like Alakazam or Gengars, and you even have coverage like Superpower for Steels and stuff like Pursuit to trap the Latis. (Beware of HP Fire Latios tho) Scizor also has the advantage of not taking up a mega slot like Mega Scizor, leaving it open for partners like Mega Lopunny or Mega Metagross. There are some problems with Scizor, though. The weakness to Fire type moves hurt, especially with things like Mega Charizard X and Heatran being super popular, and it's sort of slow, although that is somewhat mitigated by Bullet Punch being priority. But regular Scizor is really amazing right now, and definetly doesn't deserve a B rank, it deserves a rise.
Here's some calcs showing Scizor's power:
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 410-484 (106.4 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 244-288 (92.7 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 300-354 (119.5 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 195-229 (65.2 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 197-232 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It also has pretty good bulk, here's some calcs showing it:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 203-239 (59.1 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 208-246 (60.6 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So I hope you agree with the rise of regular Scizor to B+/A-.
 
besides haxorus, i think one more pokemon deserves to go to C- and that is shaymin. it has a lot of advantages over serperior in better bulk, great coverage (it has earth power and psychic, moves serp could only dream of) and sporting higher power from the get-go. in fact seed flare is a bit cancerous to play against, because most pokemon that were supposed to counter it (aka special walls and those who resist grass-type moves) can no longer beat it if the 40% SpD drop chance kicks in:

252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. -2 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 473-562 (134.3 - 159.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 398-471 (109.3 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. -2 248 HP / 232+ SpD Dragalge: 294-348 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 239-282 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (yeah even chansey struggles...)

but there's one more thing i haven't mentioned, and that is natural cure. this move allows shay to absorb status (toxic, wow, random scald burns), which is a big advantage over serp as that snake can be worn down too early with all the residual damage it takes as well as possible LO recoil. it also means shaymin can afford to use rest over one of its coverage move, letting it stay alive throughout the match.

with all these considered, shaymin is better than all the D rank shit (btw i think some of them should go unranked as they do nothing in this meta, looking at you espeon), and should move up.
 
besides haxorus, i think one more pokemon deserves to go to C- and that is shaymin. it has a lot of advantages over serperior in better bulk, great coverage (it has earth power and psychic, moves serp could only dream of) and sporting higher power from the get-go. in fact seed flare is a bit cancerous to play against, because most pokemon that were supposed to counter it (aka special walls and those who resist grass-type moves) can no longer beat it if the 40% SpD drop chance kicks in:

252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. -2 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 473-562 (134.3 - 159.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 398-471 (109.3 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. -2 248 HP / 232+ SpD Dragalge: 294-348 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 239-282 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (yeah even chansey struggles...)

but there's one more thing i haven't mentioned, and that is natural cure. this move allows shay to absorb status (toxic, wow, random scald burns), which is a big advantage over serp as that snake can be worn down too early with all the residual damage it takes as well as possible LO recoil. it also means shaymin can afford to use rest over one of its coverage move, letting it stay alive throughout the match.

with all these considered, shaymin is better than all the D rank shit (btw i think some of them should go unranked as they do nothing in this meta, looking at you espeon), and should move up.
Judging from the posts you are making, you are appearing to make small noms in order to avoid too much controversy and build up your credibility. I do agree with you though that the metagame favors Shaymin more than Espeon (AM why is Espeon even ranked???) and other D Rank mons like Chandelure (I wish it was good but it is too niche) and Cloyster (can decimate teams but is far too inconsistent), which have their fair share of issues to deal with.
 
Judging from the posts you are making, you are appearing to make small noms in order to avoid too much controversy and build up your credibility. I do agree with you though that the metagame favors Shaymin more than Espeon (AM why is Espeon even ranked???) and other D Rank mons like Chandelure (I wish it was good but it is too niche) and Cloyster (can decimate teams but is far too inconsistent), which have their fair share of issues to deal with.
ehhh i wouldn't say chandy is THAT bad, but is really hard to use and should probably go to e rank or something because of these facts:
- it's a spinblocker that's supposed to beat excadrill and starmie, but needs a choice scarf+heavy prediction to do so and a nasty SR weakness does it no favors either
- specs chandy is INSANELY hard to switch into, but it also needs heavy prediction, and pursuit trappers exist so...
- ridiculously easy to revenge kill due to its poor base 80 speed and only decent defenses
- is almost completely outclassed by zard Y, which hits harder due to drought, has a more powerful weapon against bulky waters, and is able to easily defeat mons such as heatran and t-tar. however, chandy does get STAB shadow ball and thus has an easier time against mons such as lati@s (w/ scarf) plus trick
- is not as good as nidoking for example. that mon has some problems with the power of his attacks but it still is an okay wallbreaker with insane coverage.

still, chandelure is not completely unusable. 145 SpA is sweet and the ability to screw up chansey (w/ trick) is nice, which means it has a good matchup against stall.
 
besides haxorus, i think one more pokemon deserves to go to C- and that is shaymin. it has a lot of advantages over serperior in better bulk, great coverage (it has earth power and psychic, moves serp could only dream of) and sporting higher power from the get-go. in fact seed flare is a bit cancerous to play against, because most pokemon that were supposed to counter it (aka special walls and those who resist grass-type moves) can no longer beat it if the 40% SpD drop chance kicks in:

252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. -2 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 473-562 (134.3 - 159.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 398-471 (109.3 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. -2 248 HP / 232+ SpD Dragalge: 294-348 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 239-282 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (yeah even chansey struggles...)

but there's one more thing i haven't mentioned, and that is natural cure. this move allows shay to absorb status (toxic, wow, random scald burns), which is a big advantage over serp as that snake can be worn down too early with all the residual damage it takes as well as possible LO recoil. it also means shaymin can afford to use rest over one of its coverage move, letting it stay alive throughout the match.

with all these considered, shaymin is better than all the D rank shit (btw i think some of them should go unranked as they do nothing in this meta, looking at you espeon), and should move up.
I am throwing support behind this. Besides the LO set Shaymin is able to run, running Specs decimates its counters even more, really the only thing you need to watch out for is the PP usage of Seed Flare. Overall the 40% chance to lower SpD is ridiculous, and on non-Choiced sets, Rest is a good option to keep yourself healthy as Natural Cure allows it to heal Sleep off on the switch allowing it to beat walls and other mons that require chip damage to take down mons making it an good stallbreaker.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
besides haxorus, i think one more pokemon deserves to go to C- and that is shaymin. it has a lot of advantages over serperior in better bulk, great coverage (it has earth power and psychic, moves serp could only dream of) and sporting higher power from the get-go. in fact seed flare is a bit cancerous to play against, because most pokemon that were supposed to counter it (aka special walls and those who resist grass-type moves) can no longer beat it if the 40% SpD drop chance kicks in:

252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. -2 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 473-562 (134.3 - 159.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 398-471 (109.3 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. -2 248 HP / 232+ SpD Dragalge: 294-348 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 239-282 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (yeah even chansey struggles...)

but there's one more thing i haven't mentioned, and that is natural cure. this move allows shay to absorb status (toxic, wow, random scald burns), which is a big advantage over serp as that snake can be worn down too early with all the residual damage it takes as well as possible LO recoil. it also means shaymin can afford to use rest over one of its coverage move, letting it stay alive throughout the match.

with all these considered, shaymin is better than all the D rank shit (btw i think some of them should go unranked as they do nothing in this meta, looking at you espeon), and should move up.
Shaymin is p much outclassed by celebi (who has literally everything you listed plus stab psychic)

Shaymin maybe fares better against something like bisharp, but I don't think that it even beats it anyway. Celebi is also far less predictable. Shaymin only niche is a strong grass move, but meh. D-rank is perf

Celebi can even boost (guaranteed +2, and all of your calcs show a Mon bring 1hkod at +2 anyway) and pass.
 
Shaymin is p much outclassed by celebi (who has literally everything you listed plus stab psychic)

Shaymin maybe fares better against something like bisharp, but I don't think that it even beats it anyway. Celebi is also far less predictable. Shaymin only niche is a strong grass move, but meh. D-rank is perf

Celebi can even boost (guaranteed +2, and all of your calcs show a Mon bring 1hkod at +2 anyway) and pass.
celebi has a shit typing (it has 7 weaknesses lol) and a much weaker grass move as you stated (unless you count leaf storm but that move forces you out). it's easily pursuit trapped and has a nasty quad-weakness to u-turn. tbh celebi has better things to do than going all-out offensive, so the two probably shouldn't be compared.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
OUPL Champion
Shaymin is p much outclassed by celebi (who has literally everything you listed plus stab psychic)

Shaymin maybe fares better against something like bisharp, but I don't think that it even beats it anyway. Celebi is also far less predictable. Shaymin only niche is a strong grass move, but meh. D-rank is perf

Celebi can even boost (guaranteed +2, and all of your calcs show a Mon bring 1hkod at +2 anyway) and pass.
That's not true at all lol.
Celebi has really annoying weaknesses to ghost+dark and with all the popular psychics like rachi, lati twins, alakazam, garde, metagross, mew, slowbro, and slow king, sometimes you'll find yourself stacking ghost and dark weaknesses.
Shaymin separates itself by not having any of that shit, and that's a very important distinction.

Shaymin also has a much more powerful grass stab; celebi either has weak giga or leaf storm which forces hit and run tactics. Offensive celebi is ass in general lol, it wants to hit dragons, fires, steels, flyings, and carry stabs, nasty plot, recover; it has to hit way too much with moves that are way too weak.

You say that celebi is far less predictable but its counters are the same, so what limited versatility it has hardly matters aside from cool utility (which i won't try to hide, stuff like perish song is awesome for beating every cm'er). No matter what celebi does it's not getting past torn-t or talon, so there's hardly a point in trying to make it "versatile." Lets be honest it just gets up a sd/np/sub and passes it out 95% of the time, and it does that well, which is why it is and should be in A-. keep in mind shaymin and celebi are two whole letters apart.
Not saying shaymin is too versatile either but celebi hardly is.

Basically, celebi is passing shit out and shaymin is better suited for the bulky attacker role.
 
Im a big believer in mega zam to A+ Its honestly just deadly and its cm set just breaks EVERYTHING and it actually gets quite a few chances to set it up... it can run signal beam to lure things like hoopa u (one hit kos if not av) and hp fire to lure things like scizor, psyshic/psyshock focus blast and signal beam/shadow ball have excellent coverrage and its speed is HUGE for ho teams to feed off of and trace is also something that doesnt get talked about alot as it can trace sand rush from exca (have to come in megaed cant mega on it) Overall mega alakazam is a force right now and is just unpredictable, that 4th spot can be used to run a variety of things like cm or hp fire,taunt,sub (hell ive even seen counter....) While its pretty frail on the defensive side there's no 4k weaknesses and actually doesn't get one hit koed by alot of neutrals
Judging from the posts you are making, you are appearing to make small noms in order to avoid too much controversy and build up your credibility. I do agree with you though that the metagame favors Shaymin more than Espeon (AM why is Espeon even ranked???) and other D Rank mons like Chandelure (I wish it was good but it is too niche) and Cloyster (can decimate teams but is far too inconsistent), which have their fair share of issues to deal with.
Honestly why is espeon even ranked, I tried finding one thing that it does and this thing is useless and outclassed. Its outclassed as a magic bouncer its typing is shit, there's no reason as to why this is still ranked with the huge bp nerf unless there's something Im not picking up on..... Onto other things I made a nom for mega scizor to s awhile ago and im glad its still being discussed, with only one weakness and all those resist with amazing bulk typing and being able to set up at will it can run a variety of sets and moves (for ex superpower to lure heatran) and there's just little drawback when the only thing that hardwalls you is heatran and mfing zapdos
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
That's not true at all lol.
Celebi has really annoying weaknesses to ghost+dark and with all the popular psychics like rachi, lati twins, alakazam, garde, metagross, mew, slowbro, and slow king, sometimes you'll find yourself stacking ghost and dark weaknesses.
Shaymin separates itself by not having any of that shit, and that's a very important distinction.

Shaymin also has a much more powerful grass stab; celebi either has weak giga or leaf storm which forces hit and run tactics. Offensive celebi is ass in general lol, it wants to hit dragons, fires, steels, flyings, and carry stabs, nasty plot, recover; it has to hit way too much with moves that are way too weak.

You say that celebi is far less predictable but its counters are the same, so what limited versatility it has hardly matters aside from cool utility (which i won't try to hide, stuff like perish song is awesome for beating every cm'er). No matter what celebi does it's not getting past torn-t or talon, so there's hardly a point in trying to make it "versatile." Lets be honest it just gets up a sd/np/sub and passes it out 95% of the time, and it does that well, which is why it is and should be in A-. keep in mind shaymin and celebi are two whole letters apart.
Not saying shaymin is too versatile either but celebi hardly is.

Basically, celebi is passing shit out and shaymin is better suited for the bulky attacker role.
Isn't there like one ou ghost, and it also has an even stronger poison stab? Being able to take ghost moves isn't really relevant for that reason. Dark is notable, so bisharp and ttar? As I said, shaymin doesn't beat bisharp iirc and celebi can pass out of ttar usually anyway (bar scarf varients, but you can just switch out of those). Maybe hoopa, but what is shaymin going to do anyway? Lol

Shaymin isn't getting past torn-t either, so I don't get your point. Celebi can at least pass out to gain momentum (bonus points for being behind a sub) whereas shaymin offers a 100% free switch. Access to twave, leaf storm, epower, bpass, perish, cm, swords dance, nasty plot, psychic, heal bell, recover, sucker punch(?) means that it is definitely versatile, and an all out attacking set even has the benefit of surprise (which shaymin definitely lacks).

Everything you listed wrong with celebi (bad dark weak, which as mentioned doesn't really matter) is also Wong with shaymin (usually even more so), so I don't see why it should move up.

Both of them are usurped by serperior as an offensive grass BTW, so I don't see the point in using either offensively tbh

Also, how is celebi having more moves a detriment? Lol Shaymin wants to run the same exact things, and it has less to work with. The only thing celebi lacks is seed flare, and grass is a sucky offensive type anyway (so leaf storm can suffice), and stab psychic is cute.


Celebi has a better typing than shaymin (fighting and psychic resists are bae), letting it actually beat things. Shaymin is hardcore lacking in resists, and its uninvested bulk is dumb (its invested bulk makes it weak, not to mention entirely outclassed). I've tried to make shaymin work for a while, but calc after calc just showed that celebi was better since shaymin can't really beat what celebi loses to anyway.

Celebi doesn't run an all out attacking set simply because serperior exists, and a base 100 offensive grass isn't awesome in this meta to begin with. That doesn't mean that if can't run it better than shaymin, it just means that shaymin role is even more useless in this meta.
 
Last edited:
I'd like to make a nomination: Excadrill for S Rank.

First of all, a list of (most of) the pokemon who aren't 2HKO'd by Excadrill: Skarmory, Defensive Landorus-Therian, Cresselia, Tangrowth, Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Bulky Garchomp, Slowbro, Mega Scizor. After a Swords Dance, the list becomes: Skarmory, Quagsire. After a Swords Dance, Excadrill at least 2HKO's nearly every physical wall in OU. It has great dual stab and a fairy resistance (which is an important thing with the surplus of fairies pervading the metagame.) It is indisputably the best rapid spinner in the tier. It's move pool is not incredibly varied, but it has everything it needs: Earthquake, Rapid Spin, Iron Head, Rock Slide, Swords Dance, Stealth Rock, and so on. It has two of the best abilities in the game: Mold Breaker and Sand Rush. Mold Breaker is a solid ability, allowing it to ignore the likes of Levitate (Rotom-W, Gengar), Unaware (Quagsire). Sand Rush is the main reason I believe he's worthy of S rank. Sand is very common in the current metagame, especially with the increased usage of Hippowdon. Under Sand, Excadrill outspeeds everything (barring random things like Unburden Hawlucha, +2 Scolipede, +2 Jolly Landorus-Therian, +2 Terrakion, etc.). He can be devastating as a sweeper, or he can easily destroy teams as a revenge killer. With the combination of the ability to OHKO or 2HKO essentially everything in the metagame, while being able to outspeed everything as well, I believe Excadrill is easily worthy of being S Rank.

Tl;dr: Excadrill is a monster. He should be S Rank.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
It's the best spinner... under sand. Standalone Starmie is a better spinner and easier to fit onto teams similar to Latis.

I can't see it as S rank simply because it does need the sand support and isn't always super fast. Also SD + Rapid Spin loses out on the coverage move and hurts sweeping potential. I also find that Air Balloon is a better spinner than LO simply because it doesn't take Spikes damage or recoil from spinning. It can't compress the optimal spinning role + sweeping role together. While it does both well it does still need support from Tyranitar or Hippowdon. It's also pretty susceptible to priority attacks, being nearly OHKO'd by Bisharp's Sucker Punch, Breloom's Mach Punch and pretty much falling over to CB Azu Aqua Jet.

S rank mons should be the mons that require very simple support and don't restrict the teambuild much. Zard X really only requires hazard control (which is found on most teams anyway) while Clefable and Mega Altaria provide a large amount of team support just by the plethora of things that they check and can switch into. Excadrill is a beast no doubt but I don't personally have it as one of my top 5 mons in A+ (I reserve those spots for Mega Scizor Torn-T Azumarill Keldeo and Garchomp although there are cases for others).
 
Excadrill is not a good spinner. I don't understand why people say this when it loses to so many common rockers (Off the top of my head, Ferro to an extent, Lando, Garchomp, Hippo. I guess it stops Heatran but its not like it can spin on it or anything. It forces it out with EQ and thats about it, though that is big, I won't lie. Also it takes TTar on better i suppose but tbh rocks TTar hasnt been all that big lately, but its definitely relevant, and Starmie does threaten TTar to an extent). Also SD Exca is so great but a lot of times you just cant run it bc you have spin on it. Excadrill is just an awful, awful spinner, unlike Starmie which greatly threatens, and can switch in on many rockers.

I mean sure, Excadrill is able to get the spin off, but reluctantly and at the huge huge huge cost of momentum, especially if its scarf (always hated scarf spin but eh). I've played around with the bulky SR set and I've found it to be very underwhelming and deadweight many times. It sets rocks on Sableye.... ok. Clefable and Heatran also are rockers that can force Sableye out. Also, Sanddrill is very good right now, yes, but it hates how common things like Hippo, TankChomp, and Landorus are atm. It has many limitations of its own, so no, Excadrill should not go S Rank.

Best set is definitely Sand Rush Swords Dance, but yea, I just sorta wanted to talk about how Excadrill hates using Rapid Spin, and how it is far from good as a spinner. Being able to spin is not the same as being good at getting the spin.
 
Last edited:
Excadrill is not a good spinner. I don't understand why people say this when it loses to so many common rockers (Off the top of my head, Ferro to an extent, Lando, Garchomp, Hippo. I guess it stops Heatran but its not like it can spin on it or anything. It forces it out with EQ and thats about it, though that is big, I won't lie. Also it takes TTar on better i suppose but tbh rocks TTar hasnt been all that big lately, but its definitely relevant, and Starmie does threaten TTar to an extent). Also SD Exca is so great but a lot of times you just cant run it bc you have spin on it. Excadrill is just an awful, awful spinner, unlike Starmie which greatly threatens, and can switch in on many rockers.

I mean sure, Excadrill is able to get the spin off, but reluctantly and at the huge huge huge cost of momentum, especially if its scarf (always hated scarf spin but eh). I've played around with the bulky SR set and I've found it to be very underwhelming and deadweight many times. It sets rocks on Sableye.... ok. Clefable and Heatran also are rockers that force can force Sableye out. Also, Sanddrill is very good right now, yes, but it hates how common things like Hippo, TankChomp, and Landorus are atm. It has many limitations of its own, so no, Excadrill should not go S Rank.

Best set is definitely Sand Rush Swords Dance, but yea, I just sorta wanted to talk about how Excadrill hates using Rapid Spin, and how it is far from good as a spinner. Being ableto spin is not the same as being good at getting the spin.
I don't believe that it should be S Rank on the basis of its rapid spin set; I was mainly speaking pertaining to its versatility. I think its Sand Rush SD set is the one that is the most effective. It is annoyed by bulky grounds, yes, but even so, they cannot switch in on Excadrill whatsoever. If they do, they lose. Everything has counters/checks (including S ranked pokemon). Does this mean that Altaria and Clefable should be A+ instead because of the omnipresence of VenuTran cores? They are basically hard walled by these pokemon as well. Excadrill cannot beat everything, but it can beat everything minus 3-5 pokes (and even then, can still come out on top).
 
I don't believe that it should be S Rank on the basis of its rapid spin set; I was mainly speaking pertaining to its versatility. I think its Sand Rush SD set is the one that is the most effective. It is annoyed by bulky grounds, yes, but even so, they cannot switch in on Excadrill whatsoever. If they do, they lose. Everything has counters/checks (including S ranked pokemon). Does this mean that Altaria and Clefable should be A+ instead because of the omnipresence of VenuTran cores? They are basically hard walled by these pokemon as well. Excadrill cannot beat everything, but it can beat everything minus 3-5 pokes (and even then, can still come out on top).
Alright, I disagree just due to how many things check Sanddrill. We both know of the bulky grounds, which are many and diverse on their own, as well as super common right now. Clefable and Altaria have ways of circumventing/wearing down their checks in a way that Excadrill just doesnt (Tran, Venu hate being paralyzed, Calm Mind Clef actually can beat venu if it gets a free CM, as well as some Heatran sets if they lack Taunt/Flash Cannon, and Heatran also hates Knock Off Clefable, which is actually very good. Altaria can EQ Heatran, but yea Venu is an issue. Venu isnt too common right now, unlike bulky grounds).

I just dont see how Excadrill is versatile at all when basically its "Does it have Spin or swords Dance?" Either way, you're going to your Skarm or Hippo or whatever Exca counter/check you have (which everyone does at this point). Altaria (Fire Blast for Ferro/Sciz, EQ for Tran, etc) and Clef (what i mentioned was just the tip of the iceberg) have many viable ways of making what counters them a question while exca doesnt really have... anything.

Not gonna go too much more in depth bc of AM's statement, but I'm basically just rounding out my thoughts here.
 
Excadrill isn't going to S I can definitely assure you that much so there's not a whole lot of discussion that would convince us otherwise. Might as well say it now. If you're looking for a reason you're not getting one for awhile, at least I'll be honest with you on that case.
I agree completely; which A+ mon is the most pivotal on the S rank right now? Azumarill? Keldeo? Or none at all?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top