There's a Sleep Clause. You don't need a Magic Bouncer to deal with it. For that matter, if you want to get niche, there's Mewtonite Y: Insomnia will force a Sleeping Pokémon awake if acquired. Switch in on Hypnosis, then wake up and murder it.
There's been 2 Extreme Speed bans. Why are people acting like 2 bans is a lengthy string?
... there's two Mega Stones that provide Mold Breaker. In what way is it "uncounterable"?
Uh no, Smeargle got banned inbetween the bans of Dragonite and Lucario. And there really isn't any other broken Extreme speed users left in the tier (The closest to being broken is Zygarde)
Thats my point. Espeed is a positive centralizing force that stops things like Heliolisk from being broken. But the council bans them anyway. And I mean the council. Literally nobody else said they thought Luke was broken. Now offense runs riot because there is no espeed to counter it.
There is still plenty of Espeed with Zygarde and Entei around. Also please tell me how the hell having broken spammers of 104 BP Stab moves with +2 Priority is healthy (By broken, I only mean Dragonite and Lucario)
I'd agree with you, if the opportunity cost weren't quite as high. I agree that it is already very low, but it still comes at a risk. In a way, it's kinda like a fast breloom. Except it's not immune to its own sleep, so it's kinda riskier to run.
Simple. Glalinite(or whatever its called) Weavile. Fakes out, then shards or even feints. Or Arceus, its sets up and espeeds. And its bulky enough to take a hit at +1. Or RP Primal Groudon. It sets up and fuks it up. Bruh, believe me when I say it has its fair share of checks. Altarianite Zygarde not only checks, but counters the fucker, as it resists or is immune to both stabs, and ohko's it with espeed.
Sleep has never been uncompetitive, I don't know where you got that idea. Zap Cannon and DynamicPunch put the game solely in the hands of the RNG, and that was what made them TRULY uncompetitive, but Hypnosis, in a tier with sleep clause, pdon, sablenite everything (hi suicune), and tons more, I really don't think it's that hard to handle. Hypnosis is not hard to handle and its not uncompetitive either, since sleep is a perfectly viable strategy that does not put the game in the hands of the RNG.
Updated.Mix-and-Mega Viability Rankings!!!!1
That's right, we're doing this again.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are at the top of mix and mega's metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon are here as top threats and potential Bans due to using multiple megastones easily or just one very well.
S Rank
Mew (Ampharosite, Lopunnite, Pidgeotite, Diancite)
Terrakion (Lucarionite, Diancite, Pinsirite, Lopunnite)
Primal Groudon (Red orb)
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Mix-and-Mega metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
A+ Rank
Victini (Red Orb, Cameruptite, Pidgeotite)
Blissey (Sablenite, Slowbronite)
Thundurus (Manectite, Pideotite, Altarianite)
Archeops (Aerodactylite, Charizardite X, Pinsirite, Salamencite, Lucarionite)
Gengar (Absolite, Manectite, Diancite, Pidgeotite)
Landorus-T (Lopunnite, Mewtwonite X, Altarianite, Salamencite)
Manaphy (Sceptilite, Absolite)
Zygarde (Altarianite, Pinsirite)
Arceus-Normal
A Rank:
Heatran (Latiasite, Absolite, Pidgeotite, Red Orb, Altarianite, Cameruptite)
Entei (Pinsirite, Altarianite, Aerodactylite, Red Orb)
Arcanine (Salamencite, Altarianite, Banettite, Pinsirite, Red orb)
Gyarados (Salamencite, Pinsirite, Charizardite X, Blue Orb, Aggronite)
Weavile (Glalitite, Aerodactylite)
Metagross (Pinsirite, Aerodactylite, Diancite)
Kyogre
A- Rank:
Mamoswine (Lucarionite, Glalitite)
Keldeo (Lucarionite, Blue Orb, Pidgeotite, Absolite, Manectite)
Diggersby (Medichamite)
Ferrothorn (Blue Orb)
Kyurem (Glalitite, Diancite, Aggronite, Absolite, Sablenite, Camerupite, Pinsirite)
Latios(Altarianite, Sceptilite, Manectite, Absolite, Lucarionite, SoulDew)
Noivern (Gardevoirite, Pidgeotite, Salamencite)
Suicune (Aggronite, Slowbronite, Sceptilite, Blue Orb)
Hippowdon (Red Orb, Sablenite, Slowbronite)
Excadrill (Lucarionite, Pinsirite)
Zapdos (Manectite, Pidgeotite, Sablenite, Venusaurite)
Skarmory (Blue Orb, Venusaurite)
Xerneas
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the Mix-and-Mega metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+ Rank
Blaziken (Blazikenite)
Tornadus (Pidgeotite)
Tyranitar (Sharpedonite, Steelixite, Garchompite, Diancite, Pinsirite, Salamencite)
Staraptor (Lopunnite, Pinsirite, Mewtwonite X, Aerodactylite)
Snorlax (Banettite, Metagrossite, Altarianite, Salamencite)
Cobalion (Aerodactylite, Lucarionite, Galladite)
Garchomp (Gyaradosite, Diancite, Banettite, Scizorite)
Giratina (A)
Togekiss (Gardevoirite, Aggronite)
Aegislash
Slowking (Sceptilite, Slowbronite)
Slowbro (Slowbronite, Aggronite, Sceptilite)
Mewtwo (Mewtwonite X, Mewtwonite Y)
Gourgeist-Super (Aggronite)
Hoopa-Unbound (Manectite, Diancite, Absolite, Aggronite)
Jirachi (Metagrossite, Sceptilite, Ampharosite, Diancite, Manectite, Absolite)
Ho-Oh
B Rank
Kangaskhan (Kangaskhanite)
Mienshao (Lopunny, Altarianite, Pinsirite, Aerodactylite)
Porygon-Z (Diancite, Altarianite, Pidgeotite, Absolite, Manectite)
Latias (Soul Dew)
Azumarill (Mawilite, Medichamite)
Rypherior (Heracronite)
Infernape (Banettite, Diancite)
Azelf (Red Orb)
Scizor (Blue Orb)
Breloom (Banettite)
Lugia
Volcarona (Red Orb, Sablenite)
Vaporeon (Aggronite, Sceptilite, Sablenite)
Meloetta (Slowbronite, Lopunnite, Manectite)
Yveltal
Genesect
Deoxys Attack
Arceus Ghost
B- Rank
Roserade (Red Orb, Scizorite, Pidgeotite)
Flygon (Pinsirite, Altarianite)
Giratina (O)
Salamence (Salamencite, Pinsirite)
Alakazam (Pidgeotite, Absolite, Manectite)
Bisharp (Metagrossite, Lucarionite)
Haxorus (Gyaradosite, Metagrossite, Aerodactylite)
Shaymin-Sky
Darkrai
Magnezone (Latiasite, Cameruptite, Diancite, Manectite)
Starmie (Pidgeotite, Blue Orb, Sceptilite, Altarianite)
Rayquaza
Krookodile (Blue Orb, Altarianite, Diancite)
Milotic (Sceptilite)
Heliolisk (Sceptilite, Manectite, Blue Orb)
Kyurem-Black
Kyurem-White
Deoxys Speed
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the Mix-and-Mega metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the current metagame.
C Rank
Hydreigon (Blastoisinite, Manectite, Gardevoirite)
Gorebyss (Banettite)
Conkeldurr (Gyaradosite, Pinsirite, Aerodactylite, Charizardite X)
Chandelure (Red Orb, Cameruptite)
Goodra (Ampharosite, Gardevoirite)
Dialga
Palkia
Dragonite
Rotom-Wash (Manectite)
Reshiram
Zekrom
Darmanitan (Diancite, Pinsirite, Altarianite)
Deoxys Defense
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the Mix-and-Mega metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.
D Rank
Shaymin (Lucarionite, Manectite)
Reuniclus (Cameruptite)
Drifblim (Banettite)
Diancie (Altarianite, Diancite)
Cresselia
Greninja
Meganium (Sablenite, Audinite)
Deoxys Normal
Arceus Steel
''CONCLUSION REACHED'' POKEMON: Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed.
BLACKLISTED POKEMON: Pokemon that are not only unviable in Mix-and-Mega, but also make the thread shitty whenever they are brought up because most people that argue about them getting ranked are inexperienced players using bad arguments.
- None
Rules:
- Dewgong
- Post Intelligently. Your argument should consist of the pokemon's effectiveness relative to the tier's threats, and how it fits into a certain ranking.
- NO flaming over rankings. OM has had an issue before with some arguments getting a little heated, but I will ask a moderator to delete any post containing an argument that is remotely insulting.
- Usage/how common something is should not be used in your argument. Viability rankings isn't what mons are the most used, its what's the most effective.
- Eevee General is beautiful. This is an undisputed fact.
Notes
- Thanks to Dr. Phd. BJ, AllJokesAside, Ransei, SpartanMalice, InfernapeTropius11 for helping me do the rankings!
- All ranks are up for debate atm. Nominate a mon if it is not listed, or nominate movements.
- Any and all nominations can be rejected for any reason if there is consensus it is a bad nomination.
- If you nominate a new mon, be sure to include ALL stones it can viably use, unless some stones are very niche in comparison to their ranking.
- Updates may be slow, please be patient; I will update this in bulk.
Just saw this.Some noms:
: A+ to S
Zygarde is one of the best, if not the best -ate abusers after Lucario's banning. Can use either DD or SubCoil to sweep teams, and is honestly very potent at what it does. It may not be used quite often, but it is a very threatening mon, requiring Refrigirate users to check it.
: A to B-/C+
Honestly do not know why regular Kyogre is ranked so high? P-Don straight up counters it (a mon who is seen alot), and is simply always outclassed by it's primal, due to the fact that it can check P-Don. But either way, it would be optimal to save Blue Orb for something like Ferrothorn or Skarmory, who can use it better.
: A to A-
I just feel that Arcanine is simply outclassed by Entei in every possible way. Although it does have a better movepool, Entei simply has the right stats and the right moves to be effective. A good mon, but is simply a story of being outclassed by a better fire type.
: C to D/Unranked
There is honeslty no reason to use Dragonite, due to the abundance of better DDers and the omnipresent -atespeeders that hold it back. Although it does have a niche in Multiscale, which could still leave it in D-Rank, but right now it is too high imo.
After extensive playtesting and watching others use it, I found out its just not that good. It murders stall, but I rarely found it getting more than 1 kill on offense - hell, I rarely found it getting ANY kills on the ladder and in tournament play. It looks amazing on paper, but its stabs lack the raw power to net OHKOs when it needs them, and its atrocious typing is still easy to take advantage of even after mega evolving to improve it. Overall, its just a bit lacking in my experience.
I should note that Magic Bounced Parting Shot lets the targeted player choose which Pokemon they're forced to switch in.
Hypnosis itself isn't broken. Gengar and mew themselves are already great pokemon and arguably banworthy. If this breaks either it's simply a case of the straw that broke the camel's back, in which case the mons would be banned(precedent shows that things like aegislash were banned despite being the only pokemon to have KS. Also the only other semi-viable pokemon with hypnosis that can abuse this is crobat, who isn't the greatest with pidgeotite.)
Hypnosis is not RNG, it's not uncompetitive. If sleep clause did not exist it would be uncompetitive, but as it stands now it's not uncompetitive, nor is it particularly broken.
Show me three, high ladder replays of this working successfully. It's a gimmick, it's the most gimmicky gimmick in the history of gimmicks. As gimmicky as Shedinja is in regular plays, if you don't prepare for it you'll lose to it, but any good player can play around it pretty easily. And yes, it has pretty effective list of things it can handle, but it dies to priority, status, isn't particulary powerful without a boost so you're free to switch pretty carelessly around on it, I mean...
We're not banning three stones, magic bounce is useless against any offensive mon anyways.
The Lucario suspect lasted multiple days, you had more than enough time to discuss it. The only notable person I remember actually discussion Lucario was MaestroDeSWAG :)
Zygarde should go to S, a lot of people will be looking for something to replace Lucario with, and Zygarde will nicely fit that role. It's bulky, powerful. Only thing keeping it in check is that it's not very diverse and lacks coverage for things like Skarmory and Ferrothorn, both of which wall it.Some noms:
: A+ to S
Zygarde is one of the best, if not the best -ate abusers after Lucario's banning. Can use either DD or SubCoil to sweep teams, and is honestly very potent at what it does. It may not be used quite often, but it is a very threatening mon, requiring Refrigirate users to check it.
: A to B-/C+
Honestly do not know why regular Kyogre is ranked so high? P-Don straight up counters it (a mon who is seen alot), and is simply always outclassed by it's primal, due to the fact that it can check P-Don. But either way, it would be optimal to save Blue Orb for something like Ferrothorn or Skarmory, who can use it better.
: A to A-
I just feel that Arcanine is simply outclassed by Entei in every possible way. Although it does have a better movepool, Entei simply has the right stats and the right moves to be effective. A good mon, but is simply a story of being outclassed by a better fire type.
: C to D/Unranked
There is honeslty no reason to use Dragonite, due to the abundance of better DDers and the omnipresent -atespeeders that hold it back. Although it does have a niche in Multiscale, which could still leave it in D-Rank, but right now it is too high imo.
Hoopa in B+ is a bit low? killing everything in on stall with one set is pretty breathtaking.I just want to say that I agree with suspecting Heliolisk. I know what you are saying about it, but I feel the people who support it have badly presented the suspect and few of you have been able to gain a subsequent grasp of the possible extent of its uncompetitiveness.
Lets ask ourselves: What is electrify Heliolisk doing? I'll tell you what it does. It renders anything without Mold Breaker, Espeed, or Magic Bounce into useless setup fodder. The ensuing prediction battle with staying in and switching to your counter is a very disadvantageous 50/50. 50/50s aren't necessarily bad, though, right? And can't you just use that argument the other way, since mega evolving is itself a possible 50/50? Well, this 50/50 causes a major problem in the same way Aegislash did; it makes things setup fodder. Literally, if you make the wrong play, its getting to +1, and is pretty powerful and blazingly fast. If it sets up, many teams without Pixilate or Refrigerate will get swept - Heliolisk is quite powerful after a boost or two, resists Aerilate, and has good coverage. Importantly, though, it renders a good portion of mons in this tier basically useless. Sure, it has viable counters, but so did Cresselia; the problem with Cresselia was that it turned anything that couldn't 2hko it into setup fodder. Cress was overcentralizing, but the ban was by FAR unanimous. Without the overcentralization, if counters were possibly a bit more useful, would we have still banned it? Anybody who says they know the answer to this is wrong. Heliolisk is just like Cresselia; it makes a good portion of the tier setup fodder and the rest have to try to stop it, forcing a disadvantageous 50/50 that loses tremendous momentum.
I'm not saying its banworthy right now. I don't even want to SUGGEST that it is truly banworthy at this time. I do think its more than worth a better look at and some outside sources, because it could very well be unhealthy. A formal suspect to determine its capabilities might be necessary. At the moment, I would probably abstain, but I think nobody has looked into this enough for any of us to feel comfortable putting a verdict on it right now.
Sleep has never been uncompetitive, I don't know where you got that idea. Zap Cannon and DynamicPunch put the game solely in the hands of the RNG, and that was what made them TRULY uncompetitive, but Hypnosis, in a tier with sleep clause, pdon, sablenite everything (hi suicune), and tons more, I really don't think it's that hard to handle. Hypnosis is not hard to handle and its not uncompetitive either, since sleep is a perfectly viable strategy that does not put the game in the hands of the RNG.
Didn't you say that you saw no reason for the zap cannon / dynamicpunch ban? If you believe this, you don't know the definition of uncompetitive, since those made the game an RNG battle, while Hypnosis makes it an avoidable RNG battle (A human controlled RNG battle as well, for that matter). Uncompetitiveness means that there is nothing the player can do to avoid the RNG haxing them to death, or hopefully the opponent to death in the case of paraflinch if they break through. You can play around Hypnosis, and many things in the tier can easily stand up to it.
Changes:
A -----> A-
Unranked -----> A- (Lucarionite, Pinsirite)
Unranked -----> C (Gyaradosite, Pinsirite, Aerodactylite, Charizardite X)
Unranked -----> B- (Latiasite, Cameruptite, Diancite, Manectite)
Unranked -----> B- (Pidgeotite, Blue Orb, Sceptilite, Altarianite)
Unranked -----> B+ (Manectite, Diancite, Absolite, Aggronite)
Updated.
Nominations:
A- -----> A+
A+ -----> A
S -----> A+
A+ -----> S
A+ -----> A
B+ -----> A
B -----> B+
B+ -----> B-
PUT DOWN YOUR PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES!
Going down the line. Suicune is incredibly effective in this tier, just short of Cresselia level good, and has incredible bulk to abuse. Sablenite has become increasingly good and actually hits pretty hard unboosted, while the burn chance is even more effective in this tier with the rise in physical attackers. I wasn't sold on it before, but then I realized it 6-0s about half of the ladder and popularly used team archetypes.
Archeops no longer hard checks pinsirite lucario, which was one of its biggest niches on offense. While it still checks Entei/Arcanine, they primarily don't run pinsirite, and Archeops is losing some luster with the influx of more fast, powerful attackers.
Speaking of fast, powerful attackers, Terrakion is still very effective, and I will not belittle its remarkable power and speed, but its beginning to have more problems in the post-lucario metagame. Weak to -atespeed, it faces stiff competition from Manaphy, which you wouldn't expect because they are drastically different, however they preform similar hole-punch roles. Primal Don is also a huge problem for it, as is the prevalence of pixispeed, and with these substantial flaws, I feel confident moving it down to A+.
Originally, I wasn't feeling Manaphy, but in this post-Lucario metagame, fast, powerful attackers such as Weavile are becoming more and more common. Manaphy sets up on a lot of these attackers and outspeeds and KOs them; it also checks the aforementioned Weavile, a major threat for offense. With less restriction due to Lucario, Manaphy more easily fits on teams, and as a result, I feel confident moving it to S-rank.
Landorus-T has really lost its luster, especially since offensive pdon preforms its sweeping roles better due to resisting pixispeed and tanking other atespeeds easily. It still has a nice niche and is very effective, but strongly lacks the presence it once had. Its Lopunnite set is not nearly as effective, as a large portion of the tier resists and KOs back. Salamencite struggles with Weavile and the typing is pretty bad without the secondary stab, while Altarianite is heavily competed for by its teammates, and misses some important KOs. Just losing it overall right now.
Tornadus has one of its major concerns gone in Lucario, but the main selling point to me is that its now MUCH easier to fit on teams. We all know how good it is at spamming Hurricane, but its main perk is that it no longer has to compete with Mew. The ban on DynamicPunch / Zap Cannon made Mew a much less viable pidgeotite user, and although it can still use it well, its no longer outclassing Tornadus. Base 190 SpA with STAB Hurricane is astonishingly powerful, and the speed tier is incredibly trolly as mons like Pidgeotite Gengar and many other common base 130s are outsped. I just used it recently and saw how incredible it was; it's incredibly effective atm.
Kangaskhan likes Lucario being gone, and with so many frail attackers around, it still preys on a large portion of the tier for major damage. It is a major nuisance to offense and does work against fat teams, and its surprising bulk is making it more and more splashable.
Aegislash no longer is around to beat Lucario, which was probably its biggest niche at that time, and it is not nearly as good in general. Furthermore, Aggronite Gorgheist outclasses it by a longshot in almost every way, and as a result Aegislash seems to be rendered much less effective for now.
Discuss the changes, and I will update the viability rankings on Saturday if no major objections are consistent enough to change anything. Make sure you playtest these mons if you want to protest on some of the higher ranked mons, or try to build with them, since many of the nominations have to do with how easily they fit on teams. Most importantly of all, have fun!
Just saw this.
Zygarde will stay in A+ for now. It lacks a lot of power and can't get past pdon at +1, while it really has problems with stall in general. Its incredibly predictable, leveled off as a sweeper in general - I really don't feel like its all that efficient. I want to see what others say first.
Scarfogre is absolutely INCREDIBLE in this tier; the immediate speed is amazing and it still possesses potent power that can destroy offense. Its high speed allows it to outspeed common fastmons like manaphy and pidgeotite everything and murder them with Water Spout. While Pogre checks pdon, there are many mons that do this easily and I don't feel that pogre is near as effective as scarfogre; they preform different roles anyways.
Arcanine is in no way an inferior Entei. It has significantly better coverage with close combat, allowing it to get past Blue Orb Ferrothorn. It has recovery, which helps against stall and in longer matches, especially ones where hazards are omnipresent. And intimidate, one of the greatest utilities for an already great utility mon, gives it many more chances to check threats. No, not an inferior Entei, in fact, I think Entei is inferior if either are.
I see the point with Dragonite, since its pretty much pointless, but I'll ask you to remind me when I update things on Saturday. I already closed out of things and don't want to go back now. It's not really a big deal anyways.
How exactly is Sleep not RNG? RNG = random number generator (this way RNG is when it's called the function random() or randint() ) ; sleep is a random counter created between 1-3 (by calling randint(1,3) ) that subtracts by 1 every turn and prevents the pokemon from moving while the counter is different than 0. Sleep being RNG based is a fact, there is no way to say otherwise. Saying that there is a sleep clause and this way it shouldn't be banned is not enough, no one even tried to mention a half decent check to it :/ remembering that sableite blissey need to run twave and gengar can just use substitute anyway. Gengar and mew act just like darkrai in OU, and darkrai was banned from it for a 85% sleep move, even with the sleep clause. Also this tier is much more OU based than Uber based in it's rules: you can see that from baton pass clauses (which I still it think was implemented without any discussion). Thus, banning a 100%acc sleep move on a mon that 2hkoes and outspeeds all unMega'ed metagame makes a lot of sense. Saying that mewtwonite Y is a good answer to it is mehh because it gives bad stats ( +10 speed probably will make you be outspeed by gengar unless you put it on tornadus-t or faster :/), and probably won't avoid the 2hko from shadow ball or fblast, also you need to OHKO gengar with it, otherwise it koes you first with it's 195spa. Making mewtwonite Y only niche checking gengar and doing it badly.
For Hoopa, we rate mons on their physical effectiveness in any given battle; this is the same reason that gothitelle isn't A+ in Ubers. If the ladder was dominated by stall, or teams Hoopa is very effective against, then it would be higher. As of now, we know offense is the most common and highly used playstyle, and in an average ladder battle, hoopa is not that effective. TBH if I wanted to rank it based on what I have seen it would be B- or C, not B+.
