Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[teamsnickers]

When considering Hoopa-U's Scarf set, the thing that appeals to me about it is how stupidly easy it is to just click a move and expect things to die, even against bulkier offensive mons.

252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 175-207 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 150-177 (45 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO

That's a noteworthy power difference over Keldeo, using what is each's most spammable move (Hydro Pump hits harder, but Keldeo's main move would be Scald to burn through checks and counters). This is not Keldeo's preferred set, but OU on the whole is moving from Scarfers to priority and mons naturally fast enough to hit that level with things like Weavile, Torn-T, Manectric, and Alakazam, to name a few. Hoopa lacks the issue Scarfers often run into of locking itself into an exploitable move. The lack of significant Dark Resists in OU reduces that issue for Hoopa significantly, leaving only Fairies, of which Clefable, the most defensive one. is not going on offense where it can eat HF without worrying over Gunk shot. Offense in general doesn't have too many Pokemon with the natural bulk to eat Hoopa's moves. Hoopa is less prone to exploitation once it picks a STAB.


Okay, issues I take with this replay.

1. You say Mawile was a non-factor, but it basically killed Azumarill in the opening turns. If you mean on Hoopa's effect on the battle, fine. That said, Mawile took the Mega Slot, which using a different mon for could have made the battle go significantly differently, possibly reworking much of the team. Mawile didn't impact the battle immensely, but it obviously had a huge influence in the teambuilding for the Mega slot alone.

2. Alakzam was brought in on a free switch from a Sac, something Hoopa could just as easily do to Wallbreak. Heck, he could have just as easily brought it in on the Psychic you used to beat Garchomp. Hoopa has problems switching in, but so do a lot of high ranked mons like Weavile and Gengar. That said, Hoopa at least has the bulk to switch into Special Attacks, and in general is dealing with less direct attacking against the bulky builds it's used for.

3. Alakazam having Signal Beam is either giving up coverage or the Utility of its 4th moveslot, which Alakazam needs to perform well against bulky/stall teams that can stomach his power. If it was to lure Hoopa, why are you luring something that should be easy to RK anyway? Maybe because surviving this
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
Means Hoopa wins, forces Mega Zam out, and gets to smack something otherwise. Alakazam had to be tailored to beat it to avoid losing momentum, which if anything seems an example of Hoopa's influence on the Meta if Mega Alakazam is giving up a moveslot for a move that is less effective against anything but Hoopa.

Luring by definition is reducing overall effectiveness to draw in and beat a mon for teammates. A mon is not worth luring if it doesn't cause problems for your team, which in the replay was offensive, the style Hoopa fares worst against.

Hoopa has the raw power and the movepool to basically ensure that the second it gets on the field, it will MURDER something.

Just going to respond to your points
1.Meant it in terms of hoopa u of course a different mega could make a different team, this replay was just to show how bad hoopa u is against offense
2. Hoopa u DID get a free switch and it got forced out, with its 80 base speed its not hitting anything if its not scarf..... I ran signal beam before hoopa u came out and Im running it now because hoopa u is currently a soft check to mega alakazam and running signal beam which has better coverage than sball anyway (not like jirachi wishmaker gets 2 hit koed by sball anyway...) so if i can kill a soft check without that much of a downside why wouldn't I...

as someone posted above hoopa u just has to many CRIPPLING flaws to be a plus rank..... especially in this meta where things like azumarill, keldeo, mega scizor, and manaphy are a plus rank

.

 

[Machi]

2. Hoopa u DID get a free switch and it got forced out, with its 80 base speed its not hitting anything if its not scarf..... I ran signal beam before hoopa u came out and Im running it now because hoopa u is currently a soft check to mega alakazam and running signal beam which has better coverage than sball anyway (not like jirachi wishmaker gets 2 hit koed by sball anyway...) so if i can kill a soft check without that much of a downside why wouldn't I...

Yes bit that is kinda the point of Pika Pal in the first place you ended up preparing for Hoopa-U meaning you don't exactly consider it a non-threat against offense in that you'd need to kill it off with a lure. Moreover, a lure isn't exactly a point AGAINST Hoopa-U by the nature that it is a considerable enough gamble, and generally is just as much a soft check. At the very least it doesn't invalidate the claim that Hoopa-U has a fairly good SpD stat to work with.

 

[Exeggutive]

I think Hoopa-U should be moved down to A actually. One of the primary characteristics of the S and A+ mons is that they all can switch into other threatening mons in the tier and Hoopa-U can really only switch into like hazard setting or psychic moves because nearly the entire tier can 2hko it and most will outspeed. Sure, Choice Scarf will ensure that you can maybe switch into a weak neutral and pretty much guarantee you can OHKO/2HKO that mon but it runs into being predictable. Although nothing likes to switch into even resisted hits, I feel any decently well rounded team can find a switch and take him out without much hassle. Idk I just don't feel like when I'm going into team preview right now that I am fearing for Hoopa-U. It's the best wallbreaker in terms of sheer strength for sure but I feel like its typing and speed are really really detrimental like worse than rocks are to talonflame detrimental.

That isn't really true. Hoops has solid special bulk so that it can take some decently strong neutral attacks. It can live +3 Manaphy scald so that's pretty good for a mon coveted for its offensive power. Of course it hates taking physical moves but his wall breaker abilities5 make up for it imo.
It's also really easy to get it in by double switching too. Cuz It's STABs beat a lot of common pivot mons like lati,Raikou, venusaur. It's a lot easier than kyube is (for the scarf set anyways) because it doesn't care that much about SR.

 

[pika pal]

Just going to respond to your points
1.Meant it in terms of hoopa u of course a different mega could make a different team, this replay was just to show how bad hoopa u is against offense
2. Hoopa u DID get a free switch and it got forced out, with its 80 base speed its not hitting anything if its not scarf..... I ran signal beam before hoopa u came out and Im running it now because hoopa u is currently a soft check to mega alakazam and running signal beam which has better coverage than sball anyway (not like jirachi wishmaker gets 2 hit koed by sball anyway...) so if i can kill a soft check without that much of a downside why wouldn't I...

as someone posted above hoopa u just has to many CRIPPLING flaws to be a plus rank..... especially in this meta where things like azumarill, keldeo, mega scizor, and manaphy are a plus rank

.

You have legitimate points there.

May I just ask what the targets for Signal Beam > Shadow Ball were before Hoopa, since FB hits the Dark Types and Shadow Ball's main purpose then seemed to be Bulky Psychics?

I also don't feel like Hoopa's free switch is in the same vein as Alakazam's. Alakazam came in on a sac, meaning something fainted, there was a free chance to bring something in, and Alakazam was the optimal choice for the moment on your team.

Hoopa was brought in 2 times; being forced in by your Garchomp's Dragon Tail, and after your Alakazam took out his Tankchomp.

The former case, Hoopa didn't come in by choice and couldn't win against Tankchomp at that amount of health, hence why it switched back out. Hoopa got in without being hit, but it didn't come in by choice nor was it the optimal mon to have come in at that point. The second time, Hoopa was the smart choice because if you hadn't been carrying Signal Beam, an uncommon move for Alakazam, Hoopa would have won and granted his team momentum. Might not have won the match, but Hoopa would have pulled weight by checking your Mega.

That said, I'm not sure where Hoopa-U should go either, but I do want to make sure if held down, it's by the true extent of its flaws, rather than exaggerated or theoretical issues, the same way we don't want to place it high based entirely on Theorymonning.

I want to throw in comments on something else, but is there anything else of noteworthy discussion besides the Hoopas right now?

 

[teamsnickers]

Yes bit that is kinda the point of Pika Pal in the first place you ended up preparing for Hoopa-U meaning you don't exactly consider it a non-threat against offense in that you'd need to kill it off with a lure. Moreover, a lure isn't exactly a point AGAINST Hoopa-U by the nature that it is a considerable enough gamble, and generally is just as much a soft check.

Its a soft check to mega alakazam lol I gain coverage by running it and it kills off a blanket check.... just because I run a move to lure it doesnt mean that's its useful against offense what so ever, although I do somewhat get your point(I think)
Edit to pika pal signal beam is just useful to not rely on focus miss for everything, for example if a ttar comes in thats weak instead of using a 70 percent move you can use the safe move in signal beam, s ball is just for bulky psychics and dazz gleam is to hit mega sab if you want to go that route, also before all the hoopla there was some intriguing discussion on mega scizor vs mega metagross but rip that...

 

[BlazeLatias]

So i had a mini essay on what i wanted hoopa-U to be ranked but im a bit late sooo i guess ill just say my thoughts on hoopa-U instead.

First off I think people like too nitpick on hoopas phys def a bit much. Second this things pretty crazy against balance and stall to the point offense is becoming more popular and for a good reason. hoopas got that massive offensive stats combined with a crazy movepool which is a really nice combination. You got gunk shot,elemental punches,hyperspace fury,knock off,psychic and psyshock,tbolt,energy ball as well as a few other options. Base 80 speeds not bad for a balence/stallbreaker also. Mixed lo sets pretty much 2hko the entire meta and hoopa-u counters are limited to drapion of all things which is unviable. Naturally any mon with a physically basedpresense forces it out but hoops has no true switch in. Also hoopa-u trick room is pretty scary IMO. Last of all I wanted to mention how hoopA-us inability to switch in can be solved with volt turn support which is pretty easy to fit OR a AV hoopa u can run which sponges a ton of hits including dracos from latis. Also its more splashable then kyurem-b because hoopas not rocks weak. anyways that's my thought on hoopa-U. Can see it dropping if the meta shifts towards offense>balance however. I predicted a- or a but A+ is fine for now. Gonna try to get replays.

 

[Vert]

first of all, people are providing irrelevant replays. if you are going to use replays as evidence, please make it pertain to the viability of the pokemon as a whole. if you throw some random replay with users ilikeditto69 v. hoopa-uisopbruh and say "oh, hoopa-u didn't do shit in this match, so its not broken and is useless against offense lololol", that doesn't give us a look at how hoopa-u performs against offense because the sample size is uhhhh.... one replay ._.

even then, scarf is a potent set with a powerful dark and psychic stab allowing it to have freedom in its choice of a late game cleaner. also, people are forgetting how this thing can get a kill or two against offense as well. this thing survives latios' draco meteor, serperior's leaf storm, gengar's sludge wave, and mega charizard y's fire blast of all things and nets the ko back to show its under appreciated special bulk. people also need to remember these are commonly used on offensive teams. people are also underestimating the av sets which are perfect anti-leads against classic bulky offense + balance leading with things like raikou for example. it can still wallbreak but with the loss of a 30% damage output. people are also forgetting about the last thing to combine in to the mix is being able to adapt to to your teambuilding by using specific moves. are you weak to klefki? throw in fire punch. are you weak to mega sableye? who needs hyperspace hole, go specially-based mix with that dark pulse.

also, i'd finally like to point out (if i haven't already), that this thread is turning insane rofl. do we have to be such douche bags to each other using unnecessary bold, and giving each other "classes" on the type chart? or can we just gently disagree with each other.

anyways, that's all. i don't want to talk to much about hoopa-u because even i still don't have a solid opinion on it. but for now, i think a+ is a good initial placement.

 

[UltiMario]

Yo as long as Hoopa-U is the big discussion can we get some real replays?

I've been too busy to look out for tournament matches but I've assumed by now we'd have SOME decent top level sets where we see Hoopa-U. It's so new I feel like a lot of ppl are just talking out of their ass and don't really know what its real impact is on the game at all. It's really annoying when its all dumb theorycraft, and the like 2 Hoopa replays that have been posted were below average. I've not really seen the big impact Hoopa-U has had in lots of games I've watched to make it warrant the A+ Rank, but ladder only tells so much.

 

[TPP]

As much as I hate Hoopa-U and it's ability to act as a nuke with nearly no safe switch ins, incredible vast movepool that makes it somewhat unpredictable, and probably the best mixed offensive mon disregarding speed, I'll admit that it could probably stay A+. People saying it sucks because of it's bulk just anger me, because as an offensive mon, you're not primarily looking for bulk. Mega Lucario, Greninja and Blaziken are all really good offensively, suck defensively, and are currently ubers. Not saying Hoopa-U should go to Ubers, but it's their offensive abilities that make them really good, despite their poor bulk. Granted, they are really fast, and Hoopa-U isn't, but if you do wanna blast Hoopa-U for it's poor defense, then leaving it in A+ or even A should be the minimum for that because it's not a defensive mon like Hippowdon, something meant to eat attacks all day long. If you're gonna rank a pokemon because it has 1 bad stat, then you better have a really good explanation. If Hoopa-U ever gets an attack off, it's gonna be a difficult situation to switch in because even fat mons like Hippowdon can get 2HKO'd from Hoopa-U's coverage and more notably its ability to hit incredibly hard from both sides. Also, as bludz said, it has a good special defense stat of 130, so it's not impossible to switch it in, but it's still very difficult nonetheless. So yeah, if you want Hoopa-U to go down because of its physical bulk, then I think that reason is good enough to keep it out of S-rank and leave it in A+, or at least for now.

 

[EternalSnowman]

I think that Hoopa-U should be an A or A+ mon. I am not really too up for an S rank due to its low speed somewhat hindering it. One thing that is somewhat funny I guess about Hoopa-U is that the playstyle/teamstyle that it works best on is also the type of teams that are able to beat it (VoltTurn). Regardless of this, it really does shine as a wallbreaker, despite having a subpar physical bulk it makes up for it in almost every other way. I find it to put in work in most battles and its lack of true counters and lack of switch-ins should definitely be mentioned. It doesn't boast many weaknesses or resistances so it is able to beat most Special mons with its good special bulk, but loses out to most physical mons that are able to stomach a hit and KO back or similar. Overall Hoopa-U should be ranked in the A+ rank.

On another note, I am all for the Nidoking rise. With Lando-I gone, most of its competition is gone as a ground type wallbreaker. It's vast movepool is amazing and a nice typing allows for it to ignore TSpikes and SR which means that its team support doesn't have to be huge. It is able to beat most slower teams, but struggles against faster teams due to average bulk and speed. I think that a mixed set is also very interesting allowing PoisonJab to net KOs on targets that would run more Special Defense. Nidoking to C-.

Jirachi is actually another mon that should rise. With the introduction of Hoopa-U, Jirachi actually is buffed quite significantly as it serves as an answer to Hoopa-U on Balance Teams while also being a great partner to it. Despite being weak to Hoopa-U's main STAB, Jirachi's main strengths as a U-Turn Pivot and Healing Wish user far outweigh the negatives of using it. It's splashability is also quite high as a few moves can be changed up here and there to be able to change Jirachi to check certain mons that it needs to. It still runs other sets well like a Sp.Def and such so I am all for Jirachi to A.

 

[MikeDawg]

Jirachi doesn't answer hoopa-u

 

[EternalSnowman]

Jirachi doesn't answer hoopa-u

252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 384-456 (127.5 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It RK's it, that's what I was referring to. I dont actually mean it is able to consistently switch-in. It can come in on everything but its DarkSTAB tho.

 

[TPP]

252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 384-456 (127.5 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It RK's it, that's what I was referring to. I don't actually mean it is able to consistently switch-in. It can come in on everything but its DarkSTAB tho.

When he said Jirachi doesn't answer it, he means it won't be able to come in and take a hit. A lot of things can 1HKO Hoopa-U with U-turn, so I don't think that Jirachi should be allowed to go up for that reason. Being unable to take one of Hoopa's stronger attacks, which is also a stab move, really makes it hard for Jirachi to switch in safely, unless Hoopa-U is locked into something like Gunk Shot or Hyperspace Hole. Jirachi is a great mon no doubt, but atm I don't see it in a significantly better position than before Hoopa came out. So imo keep it wherever it's at.

 

[GotR]

I primarily play offensive teams, so I'm probably a little bit biased on the whole Hoopa topic, but in my experience it isn't a pokemon I really have to watch out for. Pokemon like Charizard, Altaria, or Excadrill w/ Tyranitar, I see shit like that and I'm planning what I can do to kill them off even from team preview, but Hoopa just hasn't been good when I've seen it. I understand that in theory, it's insane mixed attacking stats and coverage mean that nothing can switch in but I haven't found this to be the case even on offensive teams - I can usually predict what it's going to do, swap in something that doesn't die, and kill it in return. The worst case scenario for me is that it ends up actually killing something, and while that happens a fair bit I tend to be able to take a mon right back with either a) the free switch to counter Hoopa or b) being able to hit something twice as Hoopa switches out.

It's quite possible that I'm just too far down the ladder to have seen anyone who actually knows what they're doing with it, but in my experience it hasn't proved that useful. And having said all that, I have seen it played against stall teams and absolutely wreck shit. I guess I'm looking for it to settle in A Rank, but I can definitely see A+ or A- if the popularity of stall changes... or is different higher up the ladder.

Edit: This is all about Hoopa-U. Should have said that at the start. Hoopa itself suffers from being completely outclassed by Unbound as well as an apalling typing and somewhere about C to B- rank seems fine imo.

 

[quagback2qc]

252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 384-456 (127.5 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It RK's it, that's what I was referring to. I dont actually mean it is able to consistently switch-in. It can come in on everything but its DarkSTAB tho.

Being able to RK Hoopa with U-turn is nothing special. Literally every viable user of U-turn can do that. If you really want to go that route:

0 Atk Manaphy U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 312-368 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 201-237 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Manaphy to S please, it counters every Hoopa set except scarf.

 

[MikeDawg]

I think cb hoopa can be p good. It likes its coverage, but also has absurdly spammable hyperspace fury.

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa Sucker Punch vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 313-370 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 171-202 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(171, 174, 175, 177, 180, 182, 183, 186, 188, 189, 192, 194, 195, 198, 200, 202)

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 178-211 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryrecovery

 

[bludz]

You didn't put a Life Orb on the Bisharp calc. I mean regardless this thing is still pretty impressive

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 165-194 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

^ This is an invested resist and it does almost half jesus christ. Obviously cant switch into Gunk Shot either.

BTW, this is for anyone:
The following damage calculator has the moves Hyperspace Fury and Hyperspace Hole as well as Hoopa-Unbound. You don't have to edit its typing and base stats or change the base power of Crunch any more.
http://gamut-was-taken.github.io/gen6-damage-calc/

 

[Jaroda]

Just have to say that Hoopa-U REALLY isn't as ineffective against HO as is being lead to believe. It's special bulk is the same as Latias for christ's sake, and it only has 2 weaknesses. This means it actually forces certain special attackers out because it will survive even the strongest of neutral special hits and KO back. Not to mention that numerous offensive Psychic types that go mixed run Psyshock, which Hoopa is immune to, which is why its such a good switch into Latios, Gengar, Serperior, Mega Manectric, Mega Sceptile, etc. And even then Hoopa-U doesn't HAVE to switch into these things. It just has to come in after something was killed and sit in front of them. None of them can kill it unless they start to carry HP Bug or something, and they'll either die trying to KO you, or have to switch to something else and hope they choose correctly.

All of this on top means Hoopa-U can be EV'd so many different ways to survive certain special hits better, or to one-shot certain things with the right coverage. In terms of wallbreaking Hoopa-U is a bit more effective than Kyurem-B against HO. KyuB tends to run LO and is also SR weak, so that's bad. And while it's overall bulk is quite solid, it has more weaknesses than Hoopa and to really bad offensive types like Dragon, Rock, Fighting and Steel. So its not as black and white between the two as people are making out.

 

[GotR]

You didn't put a Life Orb on the Bisharp calc. I mean regardless this thing is still pretty impressive

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 165-194 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

^ This is an invested resist and it does almost half jesus christ. Obviously cant switch into Gunk Shot either.

BTW, this is for anyone:
The following damage calculator has the moves Hyperspace Fury and Hyperspace Hole as well as Hoopa-Unbound. You don't have to edit its typing and base stats or change the base power of Crunch any more.
http://gamut-was-taken.github.io/gen6-damage-calc/

Had to use the normal calculator, that one doesn't have megas.

Just have to say that Hoopa-U REALLY isn't as ineffective against HO as is being lead to believe. It's special bulk is the same as Latias for christ's sake, and it only has 2 weaknesses. This means it actually forces certain special attackers out because it will survive even the strongest of neutral special hits and KO back. Not to mention that numerous offensive Psychic types that go mixed run Psyshock, which Hoopa is immune to, which is why its such a good switch into Latios, Gengar, Serperior, Mega Manectric, Mega Sceptile, etc. And even then Hoopa-U doesn't HAVE to switch into these things. It just has to come in after something was killed and sit in front of them. None of them can kill it unless they start to carry HP Bug or something, and they'll either die trying to KO you, or have to switch to something else and hope they choose correctly.

All of this on top means Hoopa-U can be EV'd so many different ways to survive certain special hits better, or to one-shot certain things with the right coverage. In terms of wallbreaking Hoopa-U is a bit more effective than Kyurem-B against HO. KyuB tends to run LO and is also SR weak, so that's bad. And while it's overall bulk is quite solid, it has more weaknesses than Hoopa and to really bad offensive types like Dragon, Rock, Fighting and Steel. So its not as black and white between the two as people are making out.

Hoopa-U still doesn't switch in to a lot of the pokemon you mentioned. I used Latias in the calc because you said it had the same special bulk and just changed its typing and got:

252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 121-144 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is not a switch you want to make if rocks are up, and chances are if its on offensive team with M-Mane, they probably are.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Obviously if it goes for Psyshock you're fine, but you're STILL going to take ~80% to kill it if they don't switch.

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 136-161 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 161-191 (53.4 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 136-161 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO
Hoopa can't safely switch in to ANY of Gengar's moves and expect to live unless Gengar uses Taunt.

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 118-139 (39.2 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
After an SpA boost that's a 2HKO. Obviously none of Serperior's other moves are even close, but it pretty much just spams Leaf Storm anyway.

I could do this for a whole lot of other special attackers, but the point is this: without SpD investment, an Assault Vest, or a Scarf, Hoopa-U still can't switch in to a lot of special attackers.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

@ the above calcs,

One thing those are telling me is that Hoopa is able to emergency check quite a few heavy hitters on offense, taking special hits with ease if its healthy.

With its insane special bulk, Hoopa becomes a wallbreaker that beats other wallbreakers. In a 1v1 scenario against other prominent wallbreaker, Hoopa can come out on top quite easily (so your latis, serperiors, water-locked Specs Keldeos, non-Outrage Cube. Even things like BandAzu which Hoopa forces to Jet or hope for the Gunk miss. All of which Hoopa can OHKO or severely damage btw...)

People act like its hard to get it in. Well.... It's not really if you play it well. Hoopa must be played aggressively just like any other wallbreaker. Why exclude other mons from this condition but criticize Hoopa for it? I don't understand... Doubling is not that hard. Risky, sure, but its a skill that's needed to play this game at a high level in general. Hoopa is not the exception.

 

[Lord Xen III]

@ the above calcs,

One thing those are telling me is that Hoopa is able to emergency check quite a few heavy hitters on offense, taking special hits with ease if its healthy.

With its insane special bulk, Hoopa becomes a wallbreaker that beats other wallbreakers. In a 1v1 scenario against other prominent wallbreaker, Hoopa can come out on top quite easily (so your latis, serperiors, water-locked Specs Keldeos, non-Outrage Cube. Even things like BandAzu which Hoopa forces to Jet or hope for the Gunk miss. All of which Hoopa can OHKO or severely damage btw...)

People act like its hard to get it in. Well.... It's not really if you play it well. Hoopa must be played aggressively just like any other wallbreaker. Why exclude other mons from this condition but criticize Hoopa for it? I don't understand... Doubling is not that hard. Risky, sure, but its a skill that's needed to play this game at a high level in general. Hoopa is not the exception.

You have to realize that this is a turning to be a controversial mon especially after being here a week as we discover its sets. So we have to be telling the truth about its effectiveness. Any pokemon can get in on double switches , after a sack, or on a volt turn if played "well" , but this is prediction and dependent on the skill of both players, and we judge a pokemon based on how much risk/reward it outputs do to its own attributes and how easy it is to use. So assuming equal skill levels, Hoopa u has a similar to problem to weavile in that its not switching into a lot , so there is more risk to the player using both of those mons in that regard than say compared to megagross who's sports great bulk on both sides, a great defensive typing, while still hitting like a truck and have a good base 110 speed... mean while weavile and gross at least have priority and good speed for offense, while hoopa sits at base 80 speed, which is not all that great for the oras speed creep for offensive mons... The calcs Gotr shows that especially if rocks are up, hoopa u , despite having the same special bulk as latios, ends up being 2hkoed by the HO special attackers it supposedly switches into. This is the case for the simple reason that does not boast any of the useful resists latios has, so it's misleading to compare their bulk. Hoopa u's special bulk allows it to take on common special attackers given a free switch in a pinch, which is definitely a plus, but that doesnt make up for the poor physical bulk. Hoopa's special bulk I've found only useful for switching into stuff like mega venusaur, which is a balance/ stall mon and not HO. So without a choice scarf, despite the problems hoopa has coming in, I've found that hoopa u can still at least trade with something on the other HO team, so its not the worst thing versus it, but its still not that great either. So Hoopa u is still left with its great prowess against slower teams and off of that it should be in the A ranks, and A+ should be fine as i mentioned in a previous post. People are exaggerating its flaws and prowess on both sides, and have to be fair tin judging the mon.

 

[Wuhu]

So assuming equal skill levels, Hoopa u has a similar to problem to weavile in that its not switching into a lot

The calcs Gotr shows that especially if rocks are up, hoopa u , despite having the same special bulk as latios, ends up being 2hkoed by the HO special attackers it supposedly switches into. This is the case for the simple reason that does not boast any of the useful resists latios has, so it's misleading to compare their bulk. Hoopa u's special bulk allows it to take on common special attackers given a free switch in a pinch, which is definitely a plus, but that doesnt make up for the poor physical bulk. Hoopa's special bulk I've found only useful for switching into stuff like mega venusaur, which is a balance/ stall mon and not HO.

This wasn't the point that KlefkiHolder was trying to bring up. He isn't arguing against the fact that Hoopa can't switch in on anything. What he is saying, however, is that Hoopa beats many special wallbreakers in a 1v1 situation. This is actually huge because normally you don't expect wallbreakers to consistently 1v1 others. Against almost any other special wallbreaker that hasn't gotten a boost, Hoopa annihilates the opposing Pokemon. This is also the reason why Hoopa isn't deadweight against HO: it can 1v1 a lot of mons seen on HO and KO them after managing to live a hit. It lives attacks from common special HO pokemon like Manectric, Gengar, Water-locked Keldeo, Hydreigon, Azumarill, Thundurus, Serperior, and the like. It's of course not supposed to do this often given that it's 2HKOed by those attacks, but that means Hoopa can strike back after living a hit in a 1v1 scenario. Hoopa is therefore a decent emergency check against wallbreakers and special sweepers that could destroy your team. I won't argue for the prediction stuff since we all know it goes both ways, but I do know that its 1v1 skills are pretty good considering it's a wallbreaker. And I think we know enough about Hoopa's power and coverage that a wallbreaker will most likely not be walking out of this 1v1 unscathed. At all.

Of course, the lack of physical bulk and speed is a problem, but I think that's one thing that's holding it back from S. It's typing can be seen as bad, but you can also see it as a typing that has very few weaknesses (and only one is used commonly as a special attacking type), allowing most hits to be taken on the special side.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

You have to realize that this is a turning to be a controversial mon especially after being here a week as we discover its sets. So we have to be telling the truth about its effectiveness. Any pokemon can get in on double switches , after a sack, or on a volt turn if played "well" , but this is prediction and dependent on the skill of both players, and we judge a pokemon based on how much risk/reward it outputs do to its own attributes and how easy it is to use. So assuming equal skill levels, Hoopa u has a similar to problem to weavile in that its not switching into a lot , so there is more risk to the player using both of those mons in that regard than say compared to megagross who's sports great bulk on both sides, a great defensive typing, while still hitting like a truck and have a good base 110 speed... mean while weavile and gross at least have priority and good speed for offense, while hoopa sits at base 80 speed, which is not all that great for the oras speed creep for offensive mons... The calcs Gotr shows that especially if rocks are up, hoopa u , despite having the same special bulk as latios, ends up being 2hkoed by the HO special attackers it supposedly switches into. This is the case for the simple reason that does not boast any of the useful resists latios has, so it's misleading to compare their bulk. Hoopa u's special bulk allows it to take on common special attackers given a free switch in a pinch, which is definitely a plus, but that doesnt make up for the poor physical bulk. Hoopa's special bulk I've found only useful for switching into stuff like mega venusaur, which is a balance/ stall mon and not HO. So without a choice scarf, despite the problems hoopa has coming in, I've found that hoopa u can still at least trade with something on the other HO team, so its not the worst thing versus it, but its still not that great either. So Hoopa u is still left with its great prowess against slower teams and off of that it should be in the A ranks, and A+ should be fine as i mentioned in a previous post. People are exaggerating its flaws and prowess on both sides, and have to be fair tin judging the mon.

Yes, I understand that all. A good pokemon is one that takes a fair amount of pressure and responsibility off the player, with ones that may do this too much so being banned. But saying that Hoopa U is not effective against offense is just not true. You HAVE to predict and get it in on those Raikous, Manectrics, Latis at full, to set up a scenario where Hoopa either wins outright or wins the trade (Killing a Latios for being down to 2% after life orb if it came in healthy, etc).

The bulk doesnt let it switch in on special attackers, but with a bit of prediction, it lets Hoopa win. I agree people are in left field on both sides of the argument, but people are also ignoring quite a few of the capabilities Hoopa holds. 60 defense is crap, I agree, but the things massive SpDef lets it win trades, which is something people just ignore, even with other mons like Manaphy which can against offense take another mon with it due to its bulk.

Winning 1v1s against huge threats like the electrics, Latis, etc is such a massively important trait that compensates for its speed. Sure, taking damage sucks, but it still takes a soul from your opponents team.

 

[AM]

Thanks to McMeghan for the new viability ranking picture.

 

[GlassVeins]

Thanks to McMeghan for the new viability ranking picture.

OOOO, so shiny and blue!
Anyways, I think that the people above me made a solid point about him having decent special bulk. I feel that the special sets in particular could be useful for checking pokemon who rely on scald to get burns. I think that hoopa-U's probably going to be the best glass cannon wallbreaker around for some time. will provide replays soon.