Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[-Ixtamacunxi-]

Ok, so even though Mega Scizor is pretty much better than Mega Aggron 90% of the time, Mega Aggron does have some useful niches. It can tank +2 Flare Blitz from Talonflame and then KO with Rock Slide, or even live +1 Adamant Zard X Flare Blitz from full and retaliate back with EQ (which actually has a chance to KO factoring in recoil). Aggron is also able to set up rocks and phaze while being able to beat fairies, which is something Garchomp can only dream of.

TWave is a justifiable niche but when TWave is also available to many Pranskter users and other Walls it isn't a singular niche of why to use Mega Aggron. Klefki comes to mind as a Steel type that can use TWave to great extents

Klefki can't set up rocks or beat Ferro with Fire Punch, shuffle, etc.
Sure, it may be usually outclassed by M-Zor, but saying Mega Aggron has no niches is really underselling Aggron's capabilities.

 

[Jaroda]

The thing is that the meta is getting more and more special based, and many other physical walls like Ferrothorn and Garchomp deal great passive damage to physical attackers, even if they take a bigger chunk of damage. M-Aggron does not hit hard uninvensted, and you can't tank special hits worth a damn without investment there either. Neither Klefki nor Aggron want to switch into a SE attack, but if it wasn't KO'd by it then Klefki at least will be able to get off his T-Wave thanks to Prankster, whereas M-Aggron will have to suffer another blow because of its poor speed. Its also crippled far worse by burn than others, as again, Garhomp and Ferrothorn still cause lots of damage passively, and M-Scizor can at least compensate somewhat with SD although its not recommended. Nobody is saying M-Aggron doesn't have some niches or anything, but what exactly about the meta is different now in that he actually performs better than he did previously? He's as niche now as he was before, and again, things are probably worse, not better.

252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 287-339 (83.4 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 287-339 (83.4 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 180-213 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 236-279 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 157-187 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 186-220 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

It's still 2HKO by a ton of special moves even with near full investment. I just don't see why it should rise.

 

[Dragongroudon9]

It's still 2HKO by a ton of special moves even with near full investment.

If you are switching in/keeping Aggron in against a special attacker, you are doing something wrong. You shouldn't expect Aggron to take special hits, that isn't its job. Aggron is going to need team support to take the special hits, it is C- rank. And judging by how you are comparing it to A ranks, it seems you expect it to perform like an A rank Pokemon. Which it isn't. That is why it is C rank, it isn't supposed to be as good as A ranks.

It really only offers handy role compression. Klefki has Spikes so the SR Argument isn't incredibly valid while Klefki has priority hazards.

I didn't mean to claim it had no niches but they're easily performable by others

These "others" that you are talking about are A rank. Of course they are going to have an easier time performing the role than Aggron, they are A rank for a reason. Again, you cannot use a C rank mon and expect it to perform at the same level as an A rank, that is the reason they are C. Aggron can perform the roles it is set out to do, and do them effectively which is the point of any mon, right?

 

[thesecondbest]

Mamoswine B+ --> B
B+ has Breloom and Diggersby and both of those are better than Mamoswine if you have a physical attacker. They both have better utility than Mamo and better stats (imo, ik they have slightly lower speed than mamo but meh). Diggersby has 162 attack while Mamoswine has 130. Both of them have great dual stabs that few things resist. Diggersby has spikes, mamo has rocks. Diggersby also has u-turn, fire punch, sd. It's just better than mamoswine overall besides a bit less speed and a tad less bulk. Breloom is harder to compare since it is very different from Mamo. However, they have equal attack stats and breloom just has so much utility with spore and strong priority. Even though the lead set has fallen out of favor, I think Breloom is better as well. And if you want ground ice coverage, use Kyurem-B. It's amazing, especially vs balance, and beats Rotom-Wash. I don't see much of a niche for Mamo in this meta - besides in UU.
And fine drop meta :/

 

[Kurona]

I'm really having a hard time understanding a certain argument here. There seems to be this conception that "Oh well that's A-rank, you can't go comparing the C-rank Mega Aggron to that". Am... I missing something here? Because this just isn't making sense at all and it seems to be a really lazy argument. The rankings are a list that reflect what's viable, so to be on here, then yes - Aggron must be compared to the A-ranks in the sense that it has to do something they can't. It's not like the C and D ranks are just a random mess of shit that's worse in every way to A and B that are there just because, they're there because they actually do something the above ranks can't but find themselves in need of more team support and hence can't find themselves justified on as many teams.
I'm just not getting this at all. "It's C-rank" is a very bad excuse and shows you've run out of arguments imo. I need an actual reason to use it over Mega Scizor, give me one instead of admitting it's worse.

 

[-Ixtamacunxi-]

It really only offers handy role compression.

I never said Aggron isn't a jack of all trades mon: that's exactly what I was trying to say. Can you really come up with something that can set up rocks, beat fairies, severely hurt Ferro and Mega Scizor, paralyze stuff, and also check Mega Altaria? Mega Aggron can do that. Sure, 2 mons could probably do it better, but Aggron does it in one slot. I'm not sure it should rise because as Jaroda said it's still as niche as before, and there's not much that makes it perform better than before, but I just disagreed with some of the things that had been said.

Klefki has Spikes so the SR Argument isn't incredibly valid while Klefki has priority hazards.

You just said it: Klefki doesn't have access to SR, while Aggron does.

 

[Hellochi]

You just said it: Klefki doesn't have access to SR, while Aggron does.

Yea Klefki doesn't have Stealth Rock, but Mega Aggron doesn't have priority spikes.
Your argument goes both ways.

 

[Alfalfa]

Mamoswine B+ --> B
B+ has Breloom and Diggersby and both of those are better than Mamoswine if you have a physical attacker. They both have better utility than Mamo and better stats (imo, ik they have slightly lower speed than mamo but meh). Diggersby has 162 attack while Mamoswine has 130. Both of them have great dual stabs that few things resist. Diggersby has spikes, mamo has rocks. Diggersby also has u-turn, fire punch, sd. It's just better than mamoswine overall besides a bit less speed and a tad less bulk. Breloom is harder to compare since it is very different from Mamo. However, they have equal attack stats and breloom just has so much utility with spore and strong priority. Even though the lead set has fallen out of favor, I think Breloom is better as well. And if you want ground ice coverage, use Kyurem-B. It's amazing, especially vs balance, and beats Rotom-Wash. I don't see much of a niche for Mamo in this meta - besides in UU.
And fine drop meta :/

Sorry, but I don't see Mamoswine a rank below Mega Gallade, who has just as many issues in OU as Mamoswine. Mega Gallade is quite underwhelming, as despite it sitting at a good speed tier, such speed tier is jam-packed with Pokemon that Mega Gallade all wants to beat. Mega Gallade isn't that threatening without a boost either, which is not that difficult to prevent it from getting since it gets worn down very easily. Mamoswine has the advantage of pressuring many fat Grounds, but its speed tier is really mediocre, and while Hoopa-U has the same speed tier, at least Hoopa-U has the luxury of significantly more power than Mamoswine, along with an expansive movepool to boot. However, since fat grounds are everywhere, Mamoswine is still quite useful. I also don't see Mamoswine in the same rank as Chansey, a Pokemon that is only good on a playstyle that is already dying and is only getting worse with the new presence of Hoopa-U, or in the same rank as Zapdos, which got a lot worse after the banning of Lando-I and is very easy to wear down and put pressure on.

 

[Dragongroudon9]

Alright, well if you do compare Aggron to Mega Scizor, you kind of have mons that do two different things. They both are steel types, and can both switch in to a lot of things in OU. Aggron better at switching into certain things than Scizor is, vice versa. After that they kind of split off in to their owns paths. Mega Scizor's main sets are offensive SD, bulky SD, and defog support. Mega Aggron's main sets for OU are defensive support and rest talk. The last thing you can compare them to each other with is that they can be used for team support, Scizor using the defog set. Mega Aggron has access to Twave, Sr, and Roar. Great support moves for a team. Mega Aggron can cripple your opponent's mons for the rest of the game, something Scizor cannot do. Aggron also sets up rocks which Sciz cannot do. Finally, Aggron can Roar out opponents about to pull off a sweep on your team, basically a last chance answer to them, another thing Scizor cannot do. Scizor of course has benefits that Aggron doesn't, like a threatening offensive presence, set up, recovery (Aggron does have Rest + Sleep Talk btw), and better special bulk. They perform two different roles which is why you would use Aggron over Scizor.

And you guys brought up Klefki. Klef can spread twave and set up hazards as well. But it cannot force out other mons with Roar, which is something Aggron has over it, which is why you would use Aggron over Klefki. Aggron also has much better bulk than Kelfki which is also something Aggron has over it. Aggron can perform different roles than Klefki and Scizor, but not both of them together. It seems like you guys are saying that Klef and Sciz are functioning as one mon that outclasses Aggron, if that was the case than yes it would be outclassed. Aggron has roles it can fill for teamss that other mons can't and that is why it should be moved up to C. And I am going on vacation so it is doubtful I will be able to post again for a day or two.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Mamoswine B+ --> B
B+ has Breloom and Diggersby and both of those are better than Mamoswine if you have a physical attacker. They both have better utility than Mamo and better stats (imo, ik they have slightly lower speed than mamo but meh). Diggersby has 162 attack while Mamoswine has 130. Both of them have great dual stabs that few things resist. Diggersby has spikes, mamo has rocks. Diggersby also has u-turn, fire punch, sd. It's just better than mamoswine overall besides a bit less speed and a tad less bulk. Breloom is harder to compare since it is very different from Mamo. However, they have equal attack stats and breloom just has so much utility with spore and strong priority. Even though the lead set has fallen out of favor, I think Breloom is better as well. And if you want ground ice coverage, use Kyurem-B. It's amazing, especially vs balance, and beats Rotom-Wash. I don't see much of a niche for Mamo in this meta - besides in UU.
And fine drop meta :/

Huh what now.

How is Mamo at all a worse diggersby? Since when has this been a thing? Is Mamo the one that requires a ton of support, can only come in on immune attacks, lacks good priority, and offers little support back? Or is it the one that shuts down almost every electric in the tier, has strong priority with good typing, Stealth Rock, actual bulk, unresisted stabs (Diggersby is walled by Gengar of all things....), and offers huge team support of its own? A tad less bulk? How is 85/77/77 a tad less than 110/80/80? Its far less, especially when considering what defensive niche Ice/Ground + Think Fat provides for even offensive teams.

It's ridiculous how splashable Mamoswine is. Seriously, it fits on so many teams but no one realizes it because they forget it exists. Diggersby needs so much support to be able to actually put in work, be it Screens or something, and even then its constantly less effective than its teammates, while Mamo doesnt. Yea sure, it doesnt get SD, Mamoswine, but to be honest, it doesnt really need it to break things. Yea, Diggersby does in some cases but for many of those targets, Ice STAB is enough to push Mamo over (SpDef Skarm, Hippo). It has great power when unboosted.

Also, please for the love of god don't compare Mamo and Breloom. Just because they have priority and 130 Attack doesnt make them similar at all. Same thing with Kyurem... Please don't. Mamo can lure Rotom-W if it wants to (Freeze Dry is actually good man). I don't see how Kyurem and Mamo are comparable at all either just because they're Ice types.

Mamo is one of the best things in B+. Don't move it down, don't even think about it. It hardly requires support unlike a lot of B+ (Especially Breloom and Diggersby) and is so ridiculously underprepared for right now. Leave Mamoswine alone.

 

[EternalSnowman]

Actually I have been holding onto this one for a while... with that recent nom for Mamoswine to move down I feel like I wanna throw this one out there:
Mamoswine B+ --> A-
Why? It is an excellent wallbreaker with access to 2 great abilities and Stealth Rocks. Offensively it has three nice options for STAB attack on the Ice Side with access to EQ. Knock Off, Superpower and Stone Edge can whack certain targets in the face. It's bulk is pretty good and defensively it still has some nice resistances, with AV Thick Fat sets being able to tank most of what Kyube throws out there, immunity to Electric moves is nice especially since it stops many VoltTurn teams from getting off the ground. The LO Wallbreaker set allows it to stop many teams that rely on Rotom-W as a pivot, as well as the high general power. It also gets the ever coveted priority, and its a STAB move for the icing on the cake. Recent meta trends have been in its favor as Mamoswine excels against offense, since it is able to switch in on many common mons like Raikou and then wreak havoc. Sweepers fear Ice Shard from it, while very little is able to switch in, it serves as an emergency check vs. M-Alt and other DD Sweepers. Many teams have stopped using the walls that Mamoswine has the most trouble getting by such as Slowbro in lieu of other mons like Garchomp or Hippo. Mamoswine's main STAB moves don't have contact so it doesn't fear Garchomp remotely while Hippo poses little problems and can't switch in. With the introduction of Hoopa-U, offense is only going to get more popular here on out and that will only help Mamoswine's viability, since it struggles against the passive damage of Stall.


The other thing i won't to post about is the argument between M-Aggron moving. I honestly don't see any need for it to move. In fact, recent metatrends are against it, as it rarely sees use against the more specially oriented Meta. It can't find good matchups vs. the bulky grounds and there is only one reason why you would use it over Ferrothorn... Roar. Honestly though, it doesn't warrant a move as Ferrothorn has many Pros over this single con, which tbh isn't really a real con. Ferrothorn still has access to Leech Seed, which is able to force most mons out especially when used in tandem with Protect. Ferrothorn also hits pretty hard with Gyro Ball, even with the low Atk stat, many sweepers won't set up on it fearing the Gyro Ball, unless they resist it. Ferrothorn also has the liberty of running an item so it can run Rocky Helmet, Leftovers or Shed Shell. Speaking of Shed Shell/Magnezone, Ferrothorn also has interesting lure options like M-Aggron, including Rock Slide for Zards+TFlame who want to set up on it, Bulldoze for the Magnes and steels in general. Some of the mons that are able to set up on it, ZardX and M-Zor, don't appreciate the passive damage from Iron Barbs, being paralyzed or Leech Seed. Ferrothorn also has access to more hazards SR+Spikes vs. just SR. Defensively, Ferrothorn makes up for its lack of physical bulk with a very usable special bulk, being able to come in on many Special threats like Latios and Manaphy. It forces the majority of Sweepers to run Fire/Fighting coverage to deal with it (Along with Skarm/Heatran) otherwise they have no way of getting past Ferrothorn making it far less viable as a sweeper. This may seem like a rant about Ferrothorn, but what I am trying to say is that comparing the assets that M-Aggron gives over Ferrothorn is few and far between... which is to say Ferrothorn has the advantages listed above vs. M-Aggron has a generally reliable phazing, barring Soundproof (Ferrothorn gets Leech Seed), Stronger Physical Bulk especially when comparing Fighting/Fire Moves and less of a weakness to Specs Magnezone. Note: I think their typings in terms of Weaknesses vs. Resistances balances out relatively well. These advantages are very minuscule except the second one, but that is really what is keeping M-Aggron from being unranked. I can sit here for another 10 minutes typing out the advantages of what Ferrothorn has over M-Aggron, but you should get the point so to sum it up. M-Aggron is a mega that has small niches over Ferrothorn, which is the only thing keeping it in C-... I would sooner drop it to D then raise it to C.

 

[Alfalfa]

Huh what now.

How is Mamo at all a worse diggersby? Since when has this been a thing? Is Mamo the one that requires a ton of support, can only come in on immune attacks, lacks good priority, and offers little support back? Or is it the one that shuts down almost every electric in the tier, has strong priority with good typing, Stealth Rock, actual bulk, unresisted stabs (Diggersby is walled by Gengar of all things....), and offers huge team support of its own? A tad less bulk? How is 85/77/77 a tad less than 110/80/80? Its far less, especially when considering what defensive niche Ice/Ground + Think Fat provides for even offensive teams.

It's ridiculous how splashable Mamoswine is. Seriously, it fits on so many teams but no one realizes it because they forget it exists. Diggersby needs so much support to be able to actually put in work, be it Screens or something, and even then its constantly less effective than its teammates, while Mamo doesnt. Yea sure, it doesnt get SD, Mamoswine, but to be honest, it doesnt really need it to break things. Yea, Diggersby does in some cases but for many of those targets, Ice STAB is enough to push Mamo over (SpDef Skarm, Hippo). It has great power when unboosted.

Also, please for the love of god don't compare Mamo and Breloom. Just because they have priority and 130 Attack doesnt make them similar at all. Same thing with Kyurem... Please don't. Mamo can lure Rotom-W if it wants to (Freeze Dry is actually good man). I don't see how Kyurem and Mamo are comparable at all either just because they're Ice types.

Mamo is one of the best things in B+. Don't move it down, don't even think about it. It hardly requires support unlike a lot of B+ (Especially Breloom and Diggersby) and is so ridiculously underprepared for right now. Leave Mamoswine alone.

I don't disagree with your argument, but I should clarify: Mamo has 110 / 80 / 60 bulk, and it still has issues switching into Thundurus-I and Mega Manectric, as Mega Man's Overheat does over 60% whereas Thundurus' Grass Knot or Focus Blast will always OHKO

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I don't disagree with your argument, but I should clarify: Mamo has 110 / 80 / 60 bulk, and it still has issues switching into Thundurus-I and Mega Manectric, as Mega Man's Overheat does over 60% whereas Thundurus' Grass Knot or Focus Blast will always OHKO

Oh, yes, sorry about that. Mental slip up and all haha.

I would still say it does a very good job at checking Mega Manectric even then (Takes neutral Overheat and -2 Overheat, two flamethrowers), and it also has that STAB, powerful Ice Shard for Thundurus.

240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 226-268 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

OHKOs after rocks so... it can still come in well with nice prediction.

 

[Cheryl.]

Nominating Mega Heracross for A-
Mega Heracross is pretty decent currently. It's an amazing wallbreaker with that 185 attack with powerful moves like Close Combat and Skill Link Pin Missle and Rock Blast and Bullet Seed for coverage. He even has a boosting move in Swords Dance to pretty much at worst 2HKO everything in the meta. It also has nice bulk so it can check things like Weavile and Bisharp or even take a super effective move in some cases, like this example:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 252-299 (83.7 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While this secnario isn't likely, if you're in a pinch and have to stay in against Starmie, you can survive if you're at full health and kill it with Pin Missle. However, Mega Heracross has some weaknesses. While it can beat Psychic types, they can beat him too. He also has a Fairy weakness which doesn't help, but he cans till do a good chunk to them and if he's at +2, he can even kill them with Rock Blast.
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 330-390 (107.4 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 380-450 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
It can get walled by Unaware Clefable, however.
It also has a crippling 4x weakness to Flying type moves, perhaps his greatest weakness as stuff like Talonflame or Tornadus-Therian are very popular right now. But they get killed by Rock Blast and get a chunk out by Close Combat:
252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 169-199 (56.9 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 154-182 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
Mega Heracross, while having stupid high Attack and good bulk, is burdened with 75 base speed, which is pretty meh in the meta currently, but it outspeeds Bisharp and neutral Base 80's at least, and pokemon like Klefki or Thundurus can provide support so he can outspeed them.

Overall, even with all of these faults and things like Talonflame being popular doesn't help it, Mega Heracross is still a very nice mon in the meta with it's wallbreaking capabilities and good typing to check popular things like Weavile, and imo it should move up to A-.

 

[Srn]

Nominating Mega Heracross for A-
Mega Heracross is pretty decent currently. It's an amazing wallbreaker with that 185 attack with powerful moves like Close Combat and Skill Link Pin Missle and Rock Blast and Bullet Seed for coverage. He even has a boosting move in Swords Dance to pretty much at worst 2HKO everything in the meta. It also has nice bulk so it can check things like Weavile and Bisharp or even take a super effective move in some cases, like this example:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 252-299 (83.7 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While this secnario isn't likely, if you're in a pinch and have to stay in against Starmie, you can survive if you're at full health and kill it with Pin Missle. However, Mega Heracross has some weaknesses. While it can beat Psychic types, they can beat him too. He also has a Fairy weakness which doesn't help, but he cans till do a good chunk to them and if he's at +2, he can even kill them with Rock Blast.
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 330-390 (107.4 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 380-450 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
It can get walled by Unaware Clefable, however.
It also has a crippling 4x weakness to Flying type moves, perhaps his greatest weakness as stuff like Talonflame or Tornadus-Therian are very popular right now. But they get killed by Rock Blast and get a chunk out by Close Combat:
252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 169-199 (56.9 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 154-182 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
Mega Heracross, while having stupid high Attack and good bulk, is burdened with 75 base speed, which is pretty meh in the meta currently, but it outspeeds Bisharp and neutral Base 80's at least, and pokemon like Klefki or Thundurus can provide support so he can outspeed them.

Overall, even with all of these faults and things like Talonflame being popular doesn't help it, Mega Heracross is still a very nice mon in the meta with it's wallbreaking capabilities and good typing to check popular things like Weavile, and imo it should move up to A-.

The reason its B+ in the first place is because it greatly depends on prediction to correctly wallbreak. There is no one move it can click and watch 90% of things die like mega gardevoir has hyper voice, char-y has fire blast, or mega medi has hjk. You may think "huh close combat obv" but the reality is that things like clefable will avoid 2hko unless you rock blast but mega medi can hjk and then zen and clef will die.
Basically, while its good on paper, u have to remember that its very prediction reliant to do its job.

I wouldn't say the meta has exactly shifted in its favor either. The popularity of weavile is offset by increased usage of torn-t, and generally speaking OU will be an offensive shitfest until hoopa-u leaves the tier, so wallbreakers in general kinda have decreased viability right now.
Hera should definitely be adamant to ensure 2hko vs clef with rock blast so I wouldn't count on it outpacing neutral mamo either.


And speaking of mamo, most of what i wanted to say has already been said, but mamo's actually a rly strong wallbreaker.
It can 2hko slowbro with lo freeze dry, comes close to 2hkoing ferro+mzor with LO eq, and can flinch through skarm with icicle crash :D
Goes without saying that almost everything else in the tier will be struggling to avoid the 2hko; its natural power is often underestimated. It should stay where it is.
But i dont believe its an A- mon. It gets a lot of competition from mons the other ice types in the tier, kyub which is more difficult to wall and weavile which has much more speed and stabs that are just as good. Just looking at A- in general I definitely wouldn't put him on the level of volc, serp, normal gyara, and raikou. It should simply stay where it is.

Regarding "mega aggrons C and zor is A so it should rise" arguments: shit doesn't work that way. Even C ranks have SOME reason to be used over A ranks, they just need more team support to do their job. But if the C rank in question is being outclassed in most relevant ways by several other pokemon which straight up do a better job of what it does or do similar things with lower opportunity cost, then even its current placing isn't justified.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Regarding this Mega Aggron buisness, I think that some people diverged from the main point alot. The OP pretty much stated that they wanted it to rise pretty much for the sake of rising though no meta shift has occurred to make it better, and all the niches stated were already considered in its initial ranking.

Honestly you wouldn't use it over Mega Scizor. But then again, why would you use Mega Latios over Mega Alt, Mega Char, Mega Latias, regular Latios? I don't see a true reason behind this. Half the things is C rank have a ton of competition when it comes to other Pokemon doing their jobs better than them, but they are still ranked above Mega Aggron. I understand I shouldn't base arguments by other Pokemon in other ranks, but I see a lot of mons in C rank that have the same case as Mega Aggron. I don't know, maybe I am wrong here, but after using Aggron in OU and the success that has come with it is notable. I do not have any replays to back this up however, which is not helping my case. I would just like to see a move up.

I mean if you are saying Mega Aggron should be in C rank with Mega Latios because you think Mega Latios has a similar problem of being outclassed, which they do to an extent, then you are ignoring some information. Mega Latios isn't quite on the same level of Mega Aggron as it is almost exactly the same mon as latios, a mon currently in A+, except it has better attack, better special attack, better defense, and better special defense, and is not as weak to knock off while having the exact same movepool. So on paper mega latios is actually better than its normal form until you realize it cant hold an item, and takes up a mega slot. Because of this , LO latios still hits harder. Then if you're using mega latios for ddance, its outclassed by the other ddancers. So it's in an awkward spot, and it's probably best used with a CM variant which sacfrices the power LO Latios has but for easier setup, but then you realize it even has competition with its twin sister Mega Latias for that role. So in short, Latios-Mega is C rank because it doesn't offer enough niches over LO latios for most teams and it is much more efficient to just run LO latios or other latios variants, get the same results and better results in some cases, and then keep your mega slot free! But at the same time, you cant really justify it being unranked or being ranked lower simply because its literally a better version of the normal form bar holding an item. In other words, if Mega Latios was able to hold an item it would be much higher in viability. Mega Aggron is not in the same spot as it is overall inferior in the large competition it has with Mega Scizor for the precious mega slot, with only niches being SR, more physical bulk, roar, and thunder wave at the cost of not being a reliable wall and not having the same offensive presence. Even then, it has competition with Skarmory and Ferro as bulky steels outside of the mega slot. Mega Aggron is fine in C-.


Regarding mamoswine, sure its fallen out of favor, but i think it neither deserves to rise or fall. Its main issue for me has always been its speed as although its stab combo is godly it's still very prediction reliant in pulling it off versus offensive teams. But still, mamoswine is still the dragon slayer and a nice electric check, and has many of the same favorable trends Kyuub and Weavile having going for them- the prevalence of bulky grounds in the meta. Mamoswine is a nice breaker as well against certain builds.

 

[TPP]

Just curious, but why is everyone comparing Mega Aggron to Mega Scizor? Mega Scizor is a mon that can act as a setup sweeper/win con, act as a hazard remover, and it has good recovery that lets it stay alive to keep setting up. Mega Aggron could potentially act as a setup sweeper with Curse, but that's not the set being focused on. The moves I see the most from the other comments are Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock and Fire punch to KO or at least to decent damage to Mega Scizor. There's another high tier mon that literally gets those 3 moves (Flamethrower/Fire Blast for Fire Punch) and annoying mon is Clefable. With the exception of the para flinch (Iron head), and the extreme bulk, Clefable can more or less do what Mega Aggron is trying to accomplish, and 1 HUGE advantage it has over Mega Aggron, is recovery in the forms of Wish, Softboiled and Moonlight. Mega Aggron on the other hand has to Rest, and being unable to do anything for 2 turns is something no mega mon would like to give up. As much as I love it's bulk, there's no need to give it a rise while Clefable is still thriving in OU.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

On the topic of Mega Scizir rising, there's only really one thing holding it back is that if your opponent has X mons, no matter what set you're really running it's going to act as a counter. And these counters aren't really obscure, Zapdos, Manectric, Keldeo... But what makes it so good is that outside of that, it has like zero downsides and it sets up/beats the rest of the metagame.

 

[cyberpunkbanana]

Just curious, but why is everyone comparing Mega Aggron to Mega Scizor? Mega Scizor is a mon that can act as a setup sweeper/win con, act as a hazard remover, and it has good recovery that lets it stay alive to keep setting up. Mega Aggron could potentially act as a setup sweeper with Curse, but that's not the set being focused on. The moves I see the most from the other comments are Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock and Fire punch to KO or at least to decent damage to Mega Scizor. There's another high tier mon that literally gets those 3 moves (Flamethrower/Fire Blast for Fire Punch) and annoying mon is Clefable. With the exception of the para flinch (Iron head), and the extreme bulk, Clefable can more or less do what Mega Aggron is trying to accomplish, and 1 HUGE advantage it has over Mega Aggron, is recovery in the forms of Wish, Softboiled and Moonlight. Mega Aggron on the other hand has to Rest, and being unable to do anything for 2 turns is something no mega mon would like to give up. As much as I love it's bulk, there's no need to give it a rise while Clefable is still thriving in OU.

Not sure if this comparison is completely accurate, considering that clef with fire blast can't really switch into ferro or zor while aggron with fire punch can (maybe) counter these two. Aggron probably shouldn't rise tho.

Regarding hippo, personally I don't think it should rise simply because of how passive it can be. It's an amazing mon, but really has trouble with offensive builds depending on whether or not it has whirlwind or stone edge (whirlwind sets are destroyed by taunt users). If this point has already been said, sorry.

 

[thesecondbest]

Regarding this Mega Aggron buisness, I think that some people diverged from the main point alot. The OP pretty much stated that they wanted it to rise pretty much for the sake of rising though no meta shift has occurred to make it better, and all the niches stated were already considered in its initial ranking.


I mean if you are saying Mega Aggron should be in C rank with Mega Latios because you think Mega Latios has a similar problem of being outclassed, which they do to an extent, then you are ignoring some information. Mega Latios isn't quite on the same level of Mega Aggron as it is almost exactly the same mon as latios, a mon currently in A+, except it has better attack, better special attack, better defense, and better special defense, and is not as weak to knock off while having the exact same movepool. So on paper mega latios is actually better than its normal form until you realize it cant hold an item, and takes up a mega slot. Because of this , LO latios still hits harder. Then if you're using mega latios for ddance, its outclassed by the other ddancers. So it's in an awkward spot, and it's probably best used with a CM variant which sacfrices the power LO Latios has but for easier setup, but then you realize it even has competition with its twin sister Mega Latias for that role. So in short, Latios-Mega is C rank because it doesn't offer enough niches over LO latios for most teams and it is much more efficient to just run LO latios or other latios variants, get the same results and better results in some cases, and then keep your mega slot free! But at the same time, you cant really justify it being unranked or being ranked lower simply because its literally a better version of the normal form bar holding an item. In other words, if Mega Latios was able to hold an item it would be much higher in viability. Mega Aggron is not in the same spot as it is overall inferior in the large competition it has with Mega Scizor for the precious mega slot, with only niches being SR, more physical bulk, roar, and thunder wave at the cost of not being a reliable wall and not having the same offensive presence. Even then, it has competition with Skarmory and Ferro as bulky steels outside of the mega slot. Mega Aggron is fine in C-.


Regarding mamoswine, sure its fallen out of favor, but i think it neither deserves to rise or fall. Its main issue for me has always been its speed as although its stab combo is godly it's still very prediction reliant in pulling it off versus offensive teams. But still, mamoswine is still the dragon slayer and a nice electric check, and has many of the same favorable trends Kyuub and Weavile having going for them- the prevalence of bulky grounds in the meta. Mamoswine is a nice breaker as well against certain builds.

So you defend the fact that aggron should rise because its niche is supplemented by other mons, but you then say that it has the same favorable trends as these other mons. But kyurem outclasses it, with higher speed, hiher bulk, reliable recovery, a less niche way to hit rotom, scarf sets, hone claws, etc, and weavile is way faster and has stab knock off, pursuit, etc. Can you give an example of a time I would choose mamo over breloom, diggersby, and kyurem?

 

[Flygonial]

So you defend the fact that aggron should rise because its niche is supplemented by other mons, but you then say that it has the same favorable trends as these other mons. But kyurem outclasses it, with higher speed, hiher bulk, reliable recovery, a less niche way to hit rotom, scarf sets, hone claws, etc, and weavile is way faster and has stab knock off, pursuit, etc. Can you give an example of a time I would choose mamo over breloom, diggersby, and kyurem?

Breloom and Diggersby aren't really all that comparable to Mamoswine - they're hard hitting physical attackers with priority and only the latter can really give Mamo true competition for its role in EQ spamming. The two diverge from there. Kyurem-B has a crappy physical movepool in comparison, Weavile has worse bulk and a borderline useless ability and less power. Mamoswine would be used over Kyurem-B and Diggersby in a scenario where it would fit the defensive and/or offensive synergy of the team better - technically resisting Ice is another thing it has over KyuB, having access to Rocks, and also being able to break Chansey which KyuB can't without locking itself into Outrage. Honestly, Weavile and Kyurem-B are the only thing that really give it much competition of what you listed. What it has over Weavile is actually being able to actually significantly dent Keldeo, Azu, being able to 2HKO non max-max Clefable which it still can 2HKO 20% of the time, and those are only beginning to list what it can do over it. Kyurem-B wishes it could get Icicle Crash and EQ. Both of them are weak to rocks, while Mamoswine is not. I'm not advocating a Mamo rise or drop, nor is it overall a better 'mon than Kyurem-B or Weavile. It's not truly outclassed and still has notable niches and uses over all the 'mons you've mentioned, even if they're not all desired as commonly.

 

[EternalSnowman]

So you defend the fact that aggron should rise because its niche is supplemented by other mons, but you then say that it has the same favorable trends as these other mons. But kyurem outclasses it, with higher speed, hiher bulk, reliable recovery, a less niche way to hit rotom, scarf sets, hone claws, etc, and weavile is way faster and has stab knock off, pursuit, etc. Can you give an example of a time I would choose mamo over breloom, diggersby, and kyurem?

Vs. Breloom. Honestly the two aren't really comparable, the main reason to use Mamoswine as a wallbreaker is that its STAB coverage is unresisted except by like Bronzong (corrrect me if I'm wrong), so it has 2 slots to run coverage/utility in the form of Ice Shard, Freeze-Dry, Knock Off, Superpower, StoneEdge and Stealth Rock. The main reasons why you run it is the STAB moves and Stealth Rock.

Vs. Diggersby. Once again really not comparable. Diggersby has a lot of raw power over Mamoswine due to Huge Power, however it lacks real coverage since it really only runs 2 attacks. Mamoswine has a better defensive typing and ability + access to SR helps it out. Mamoswine also gets Freeze-Dry to break some physical walls, Diggersby doesn't and while Diggersby is a wincon/sweeper, Mamoswine is a utility wallbreaker.

Vs. Kyurem-B. Overall only two reasons to use Mamoswine over it which is its access to SR and Freeze-Dry. I may sound like a broken record at this point, but Mamo is able to KO threats like Slowbro, Swampert, Rotom-W and Gyarados on the switch, Kyube struggles with both Slowbro and Swampert.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

So you defend the fact that aggron should rise because its niche is supplemented by other mons, but you then say that it has the same favorable trends as these other mons. But kyurem outclasses it, with higher speed, hiher bulk, reliable recovery, a less niche way to hit rotom, scarf sets, hone claws, etc, and weavile is way faster and has stab knock off, pursuit, etc. Can you give an example of a time I would choose mamo over breloom, diggersby, and kyurem?

>breloom outclasses mamoswine
oh dear god save me from this terrible place

Let me start off by saying that Mamoswine should always be one subrank below Kyurem-B. At this point honestly B+ seems fine though it's borderline A- material to me, and Mamoswine definitely belongs with Breloom and Dragalge in B+, if not higher, and it's laughable to place Mamoswine below Victini and Mega Gallade. Realistically I'd rather drop those two than Mamoswine because they don't fare that great in this metagame but that's for another time.

"But kyurem outclasses it, with higher speed, hiher bulk, reliable recovery, a less niche way to hit rotom, scarf sets, hone claws"

If Kyurem-B DID outclass Mamoswine completely, then Mamoswine wouldn't even be ranked in the first place. Mamoswine definitely has justifiable niches over Kyurem-B. For example, Mamoswine is not weak to Stealth Rock, giving it many more switch-in chances. Roost isn't always enough to offset the LO recoil, in addition to the Stealth Rock and residual damage taken, meaning that Mamoswine can check certain Pokemon such as Mega Manectric and Raikou more easily. Another thing is Mamoswine's powerful Ground STAB alongside Freeze Dry, meaning it doesn't rely on Fusion Bolt to beat bulky Water-types. This is especially important when you consider the likes of Slowbro, Suicune, and Alomomola countering Kyurem-B but not Mamoswine due to a combination of Earthquake and super effective Freeze Dry. Mamoswine also has Ice Shard to patch up its Speed stat, another thing Kyurem-B lacks, and this is especially important to pick off weakened things such as Mega Lopunny which would've otherwise KOed you.

"weavile is way faster and has stab knock off, pursuit"

By this flawed logic, Gengar outclasses Hoopa because "it's way faster and has STAB Sludge Wave". Mamoswine performs much better against balanced builds because it's more powerful in general so you can't really go around saying ohhh I'd rather use Weavile than Mamoswine when you realize that Mamoswine has that bulk and power to go along with a decent Speed and great coverage. Ice + Ground is epic coverage, and Mamoswine is a good check to the likes of Raikou and Mega Manectric which Weavile would only dream of switching in against. Ground-type coverage is something Weavile to break past Keldeo and Azumarill and it really matters especially for those teams that can't afford to use an Ice-type countered by Keldeo.

"Can you give an example of a time I would choose mamo over breloom, diggersby, and kyurem?"

yeah when I want something that can hit flying-types, water-types, isn't weak to stealth rock, and has priority. oh and did I mention that it beats balance?

tl;dr stop saying mamoswine is outclassed by weavile. it doesn't belong in B, a subrank lower than victini and mega gallade.

 

[Reymedy]

To be honest Tornadus-T should be S.
I dont even really feel like explaining, but I mean it's so easy to slap onto every team and it's so useful.
Just the AV set could be S, so if you consider that it actually can sweep a lot of teams clean with Life Orb (*cough* okay 70% mb that's not so clean) then it's such an easy S pick.

Oh and a fast U-Turn got even better with Hoopa released I guess.

tl;dr : pokémon with no opportunity cost

 

[Mr James Grey]

To be honest Tornadus-T should be S.
I dont even really feel like explaining, but I mean it's so easy to slap onto every team and it's so useful.
Just the AV set could be S, so if you consider that it actually can sweep a lot of teams clean with Life Orb (*cough* okay 70% mb that's not so clean) then it's such an easy S pick.

Oh and a fast U-Turn got even better with Hoopa released I guess.

tl;dr : pokémon with no opportunity cost

I can agree with this. Genie coverage is quite sickening, and Tornanus is no exception. Even though hurricane has that big chance to miss, i think tornadus makes up for it with A) the confusion chance that comes alongside hurricane and B) the fact that it will often be pressing one of its coverage moves to hit a switch-in. The stealth rock weakness might be off-putting to some, but once again it makes up for it with its great ability regenerator, making it hard to wear down. All in all, sick slapability, great blanket-check power, and self-made fixes to its own problem make this mon worthy of S.

Edit: I feel like it could be taken that im just regurgitating things about the mon that people already know, so i want to clarify that im trying to refute arguments I've seen people use against Tornadus to S with this post