Battle Maison Discussion & Records

Am I misremembering this, or aren't there multiple Trick Room teams in the top 10 of Doubles? Like, at least two? Whose Trick Room setter has other, non-damaging moves? Or is that the beer talking?
I was talking about status and weather specifically, not all non-damaging moves. Trick Room, Protect, and Tailwind can all be very useful.
 
Hello, I'm new to the Smogon forums, but I created an account made specifically for getting the communities opinions and how to improve on my team for the ORAS Super Triple Battles. I am not interested in extremely long streaks, as I just want to get to 50 wins. With my current team, I usually get to around 10-15 wins, so I must improve more. Please give your opinions and also please give help me improve my team.

Note : I am trying not to use exploitative pokemon (Ex. Level 1 Aron.) I also have a fully EV trained Lv. 1 Kangaskhan sitting in my PC, but I am trying not to use Parental Bond.

My team :

All Level 100

Pidgeot (Yegdip)
Held Item : Pidgeotite
Ability : Tangled Feet (Un-MegaEvolved) / No Guard (Mega Evolved)
Nature : Quiet
EVs : 252 Attack / 252 Sp. Attack / 4 Speed
Steel Wing
Heat Wave
Hurricane
Hyper Beam

Lucario (Cobalt)
Held Item : Focus Sash
Ability : Justified
Nature : Naive
EVs : 252 Attack / Half Sp. Attack / Half Speed
Aura Sphere
Close Combat
Earthquake
Flash Cannon

Charizard (Ragnarok)
Held Item : Muscle Band
Ability : Blaze
Nature : Jolly
EVs : 252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Fire Punch
Earthquake
Flare Blitz
Dragon Claw

Gardevoir (Asuna)
Held Item : Wise Glasses
Ability : Synchronize
Nature : Rash
EVs : All EV's are around a quarter to a half full.
Psychic
Moonblast
Thunderbolt
Energy Ball

Absol (Majora)
Held Item : Razor Claw
Ability : Super Luck
Nature : Quirky
EVs : 252 Attack / Everything else is a quarter full.
Iron Tail
X-Scissor
Night Slash
Stone Edge

Feraligatr (Feraligatr) *Traded*
Held Item : Life Orb
Ability : Torrent
Nature : Sassy
EV's : 25% - 40% Full (All EVs)
Rock Slide
Earthquake
Crunch
Waterfall

Please help me improve this team as I really want to reach the 50 wins for the perks it'll give me. Criticism is welcome.
 
"Quarter full" doesn't help us readers know what your stats actually look like in the slightest, so if you want more detailed feedback on this team, please post either the exact EVs or just raw lv 50 stats (if your IVs aren't perfect).

If your IVs aren't perfect, they should be. As for EVs, for half of those Pokémon the EV spreads are not ideal. Absol, for instance, is too frail to really get much out of defensive EVs, but those are valuable points that could be put in Speed... not that it really matters because Absol's too slow to do much except abuse Sucker Punch (which you don't have) anyway, so I guess it's a moot point. But overall it does seem like you've just taken an ingame team and stuck a variety of moves and items on it, because your natures aren't terrific either. This team probably won't be able to accomplish very much, even if all the movesets and stats are idealized, since there's no synergy between them and the fact that they all have pure attacking movesets only serves to highlight this fact. If you look through the top teams in Triples (or any category, really) in the OP, you'll notice that a lot of them have ways to assist team members and generally be synergistic: Mat Block Greninja is common because of the perks it can give team members, Talonflame's priority Brave Bird and Tailwind make it a popular choice just to do heavy damage and boost its team members while also being bait to protect other Pokémon (like on ~Mercury~'s team, where Talonflame protects Gyarados by drawing Rock attacks toward itself so Gyarados can wreck shit), spread attackers like Discharge Rotom, Water Spout Mega Blastoise, and Hyper Voice Sylveon are common, ReptoAbysmal uses nothing but teams that run off of Trick Room. All of those Pokémon went through careful team-building processes and have significant synergy, but on the other hand I really don't see how your Pokémon are supposed to be synergistic... beyond Earthquake Lucario being paired with Pidgeot and Charizard, I suppose. But even then, Charizard has Earthquake, which will kill your Lucario if you ever have to use it, and I'm sure you don't want that. You might want to read the OP and some teambuilding descriptions.

But if you wish to endeavor using this team, make a point to check out the trainer and Pokémon data lists, as well as familiarizing yourself with the damage calculator and speed tiers. You might get farther if you abuse the AI with the help of these tools, although I still have doubts about your team's ability to reach 50 without a significant overhaul.
 
I see... Well. I guess I'm off to do more research. The reason for the "half-full and quarter-full" EV's was because the Gardevoir and the Absol were for the main-game and I hadn't kept track of the EV's, as for the Feraligatr, I couldn't tell since it was traded. I do see that this team is not "up to standard" for 50 streaks, so I'll do major tweaking and maybe even just making a whole new team. I will consider having a Talonflame in the future and researching more about team-building. Thank you for the vast amount of information you have given me Altissimo . But would you mind giving me one more piece of information? Where can I get a Gale Wings Talonflame in ORAS? I'm currently trying GTS, but having no luck with the outrageous Pokemon requests.
 
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If you have X or Y, some of the Fletchinder you might find in Friend Safaris can have their Hidden Ability. But alternatively, I can breed you one and trade it, if you'd like.
 
I don't own X or Y, just Alpha Sapphire. Thank you for the offer of the bred pokemon, as I will take that offer. Thank you very much! Should I give you my fc?
 
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Greetings all! My friend and I have been attempting the Super Multi Battles but recently lost just before getting to the Battle Chatelaine. The reason? I have been using the speed chart linked in the first post, but there is a Pokemon who has incorrect speeds listed: Mr. Mime. It is currently listed as:

Mr. Mime 1: 193
Mr. Mime 2: 77
Mr. Mime 3: 86
Mr. Mime 4: 118

...when it really should be:

Mr. Mime 1: 234
Mr. Mime 2: 99
Mr. Mime 3: 110
Mr. Mime 4: 142

We are using a Mega Beedrill and when faced with Mr. Mime 4 believed base form Beedrill would outspeed it. However, due to the incorrect speed listed, we were outsped and OHKOd. Had we known this would be the case, we would have played differently and won easily. Hopefully this can be updated ASAP so we and others will not be mistaken anymore by this handy guide. I will be going over all the speeds listed to be sure there aren't any more problems. The list is really convenient so I hope it is continuously maintained. Thanks!
 
Note : I am trying not to use exploitative pokemon (Ex. Level 1 Aron.)
I have to object to the labeling of Aron as "exploitative" on the grounds that it's no more an exploit than having a Mienshao on the field with an enemy Tornadus present and making the highly reliable prediction that Tornadus will attempt to kill it with Hurricane.

It's common knowledge amongst this topic that the AI has a strong preference for delivering fainting blows when it can. This includes using priority moves on 1HP targets, but I'm specifically referring to OHKOs in this case. Aron is a tool for preventing the dangerous layering of attacks from multiple enemies that will prevent an important lead from doing its job. Eviolite Dusclops can survive a Crunch from Tyrantrum4, but not necessarily a Crunch (incurring a defense drop) followed by Exeggutor4's Wood Hammer. Aron mitigates this potential risk, that's all. Of course, because it also can learn Endeavor, plus weather moves, and functions impeccably under Trick Room, it has enough tools to avoid being deadweight beyond protecting its partner(s) from 2HKOs.

...and, of course, by enticing the AI into KOing it, it also goes a long way in preventing undesirable status/support moves from being used against your team.

Of course, I also do not consider Durant an exploit, but then I'm a firm believer in playing to win (when I'm not dicking around with my randoms, which are generally awful.) The AI is not bugged; it was just programmed that way, and it's up to us to deal with it. Durant and Aron have made it easy to deal with it while also giving us an advantage.
 
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I have to object to the labeling of Aron as "exploitative" on the grounds that it's no more an exploit than having a Mienshao on the field with an enemy Tornadus present and making the highly reliable prediction that Tornadus will attempt to kill it with Hurricane.

It's common knowledge amongst this topic that the AI has a strong preference for delivering fainting blows when it can. This includes using priority moves on 1HP targets, but I'm specifically referring to OHKOs in this case. Aron is a tool for preventing the dangerous layering of attacks from multiple enemies that will prevent an important lead from doing its job. Eviolite Dusclops can survive a Crunch from Tyrantrum4, but not necessarily a Crunch (incurring a defense drop) followed by Exeggutor4's Wood Hammer. Aron mitigates this potential risk, that's all. Of course, because it also can learn Endeavor, plus weather moves, and functions impeccably under Trick Room, it has enough tools to avoid being deadweight beyond protecting its partner(s) from 2HKOs.

...and, of course, by enticing the AI into KOing it, it also goes a long way in preventing undesirable status/support moves from being used against your team.

Of course, I also do not consider Durant an exploit, but then I'm a firm believer in playing to win (when I'm not dicking around with my randoms, which are generally awful.) The AI is not bugged; it was just programmed that way, and it's up to us to deal with it. Durant and Aron have made it easy to deal with it while also giving us an advantage.
Yeah, I can honestly say that the strategy of an offensive Mega lead with two stall backups is "safer" than 99% of Durant teams, and when you use a team like that you are "exploiting" the AI tendency to allow you to switch back and forth between two Pokemon 20 turns in a row without ever worrying about being "outpredicted" just as much, if not more so, than a Durant team exploits the AI tendency to not switch.
 
It's common knowledge amongst this topic that the AI has a strong preference for delivering fainting blows when it can. This includes using priority moves on 1HP targets, but I'm specifically referring to OHKOs in this case. Aron is a tool for preventing the dangerous layering of attacks from multiple enemies that will prevent an important lead from doing its job. Eviolite Dusclops can survive a Crunch from Tyrantrum4, but not necessarily a Crunch (incurring a defense drop) followed by Exeggutor4's Wood Hammer. Aron mitigates this potential risk, that's all. Of course, because it also can learn Endeavor, plus weather moves, and functions impeccably under Trick Room, it has enough tools to avoid being deadweight beyond protecting its partner(s) from 2HKOs.
Would you even use Aron if it weren't for the ability of Endeavor to make Aron offensively useful? I thought the combo of Sturdy + Endeavor was what made Aron a huge draw in the Maison, but for some reason I'm reading what you wrote as "Aron helps to take KOs but it helps that it can learn Endeavor" which implies that Aron would almost find itself on teams even if it couldn't use Endeavor to its advantage. And given the lack of other Sturdy lv. 1 Pokémon elsewhere on Maison teams, that piques my interest.

Of course, I also do not consider Durant an exploit, but then I'm a firm believer in playing to win (when I'm not dicking around with my randoms, which are generally awful.) The AI is not bugged; it was just programmed that way, and it's up to us to deal with it. Durant and Aron have made it easy to deal with it while also giving us an advantage.
The Maison (and Frontier, Tower, and every other facility of this nature), as a whole, has an inherent advantage over the player. Many, actually.
1) You need to win [x] number of matches in a row, whereas every AI trainer has nothing to lose. This means they can play with very unreliable strats like OHKO moves and 70% accurate ones, moves that rely on status hax to be truly devastating, and items and moves like Quick Claw, Double Team, Lax Incense, without caring about what happens if they lose since each trainer is just another one in an endless line of trainers that are not penalized for losing in the same way as the player.
2) The AI has inherent knowledge of the Pokémon you are leading with. While in most battles careful checking of the trainer is enough to tell you the stats and set upon checking the database, there are some trainers, especially Legendary trainers (!) with whom it is not so cut-and-dried, and there is no way to know the true best move to make on the opposing Pokémon because of this factor. On the other hand, the AI's knowledge of your Pokémon means that they will immediately know the best move to make on your Pokémon (well, "best" as far as the AI programming is concerned).
2.5) They're not susceptible to human error when running these calcs. I lost battle 49 in Multi because I assumed even Scarf Terrakion couldn't be faster than max speed Greninja, and I didn't know which Terrakion it was anyway. Losses like Jumpman's "it was bright and I didn't see which move I had picked previously" or his near-loss in the Frontier because of misclicking a switch-in instead of just checking stats and other such losses are also not something the AI will ever be capable of doing.
3) The AI has an enormous pool of Pokémon to choose from. You can use 3 (/4/6). These 3 (/4/6) need to be capable of beating as many of the opposing line-ups as possible, regardless of possible bad matchups, whereas a single AI trainer having a bad matchup against you is hardly relevant since in the next match they may easily bring in the team that is perfectly designed to beat yours.

All of this considered, I don't think there's a single way to play the Maison that can be considered "exploitative" (beyond legitimate cheating). Despite all of this, the AI is still a computer, and doesn't have the insight that human players have with regards to - well - itself. Leading with a Sturdy, Berry Juice, Endeavor Aron in Doubles or Triples is using a certain aspect of the AI's programming to your advantage. Using a Durant to pass Truant to the opposing Pokémon, and promptly setting up Cloyster, Drapion, or another sweeper, is using a certain aspect of the AI's programming to your advantage. Back in Gen 4, the Trick Scarf strategy was using a certain aspect of the AI's programming to your advantage. As far as I'm concerned, it's all the same, and it's absolutely no different than predicting that a Fire-type opponent will use a Fire attack on your Bellossom and switching to a Kingdra in anticipation. Some strategies may be more effective than others, ultimately, but I believe that since the AI has so many inherent advantages over you, that using the fact that it is a non-self-aware computer to your advantage is perfectly fine and acceptable. It's true that teams based around things like Durant and Aron are so reliable as to almost be "broken" - but then, so is the goodstuffs team of Jumpman's Kangliscune or VaporeonIce's recent MegaMence/Aegislash/Chansey. It's just that turning AI quirks in your favor tends to turn out more immediate, visible results, for the most part, though I would be very hesitant to call these strategies "exploitative" since it's not like a goodstuffs team like Kangliscune doesn't use aspects of the AI (like Kangaskhan's weaknesses to Fighting and status, Gliscor's weaknesses to Water and Ice, and the tendency of the AI to not switch out of a boosting Suicune) to its advantage. I suppose the sheer numbers of Durant and Aron teams on the leaderboard is a testament to those strategies' success... but then, MegaKhan and Aegislash in singles and Greninja and Talonflame in doubles/triples are similarly common, but I haven't heard anyone claim one of those are exploitative!!
 
Absolutely right in regards to Aron. I was trying to put it in context of an exploit, though, which is why I put the Endeavor on the side. There's nothing inherently exploitative about using Endeavor with 1HP, but Aron takes full advantage of the AI tendencies by being a KO magnet. I cannot think of anything else Aron does that can be considered a form of abuse as it pertains to the AI. No, I don't think anyone would use Aron were it not for its offensive uses.

While you're also right that the Maison is highly stacked against the player- by virtue of Aron removing a shitload of guesswork and making a lot of decisions much safer than they'd ever be without its presence, and from my own experiences of the significantly more easily built streak than I'd ever achieved by using only goodstuffs, I still think Aron DOES give the player a distinct advantage. Not necessarily enough to completely turn things around, since there are still plenty of checks and circumstances which make Aron a negligible factor in one's strategy, but it cannot be understated how valuable it is to be able to ward off attacks from your setter or primary sweeper just by having an Aron use Protect. It essentially accomplishes the effect of Greninja's Mat Block without making enemy speed a potential issue and perhaps warding off some status (which MB does not block) as well. And unlike Mat Block, Aron is able to do this repeatedly without switching, provided its partners KO some enemies.

Edit: well, of course, Mat Block protects the party from spread moves, unlike Aron, but I still think it's a fair comparison =P
 
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Looking for some help on my Super Doubles team. I beat regular Doubles without too much trouble, but I know that it will get tougher.

Here we go:

Terrakion Expert Belt (planning to upgrade to a Life Orb)
Ability: Justified
Nature: Lonely
IVs: Perfect Attack, Defense, Speed, others unknown
EVs: 252 Att/252 Spe/4 Def
Swords Dance
Sacred Sword
Earthquake
Rock Slide

Terrakion is a good physical sweeper that can cover the entire field with Earthquake. Swords Dance allows it to set up if need be on its opponents. Rock Slide is a coverage option for Flying-types and levitators, while Sacred Sword is a good STAB option. I'm planning to either power-level or use a Heart Scale for Close Combat.

Azelf WeaKness Policy
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Modest
IVs: Perfect Attack, Special Attack, Speed, others unknown
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 SpD
Nasty Plot
Thunderbolt
Flamethrower
Psychic

Having Levitate means that Azelf can pair up well with Terrakion while it's spamming Earthquake all day long. Since Terrakion outspeeds Azelf slightly, Azelf can help to pick off the stragglers with Nasty Plot-boosted Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and Psychic. Psychic also helps cover Terrakion's weaknesses.

Exploud Choice Specs
Nature: Mild
Ability: Scrappy
IVs: Perfect HP, Special Attack, others unknown
EVs: 252 SpA/252 HP/4 Spe
Boomburst
Fire Blast
Focus Blast
Surf

Exploud is a good special attacker, with STAB Choice Specs-boosted Boomburst doing the brunt of the work. Scrappy means that even Ghost-types aren't safe. For Steel-types, Fire and Focus Blast have been included, while Surf helps to clean up Rock-types.

Corsola Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Nature: Calm
IVs: Perfect HP, Special Defense, others unknown
EVs: 252 HP, 252 SpD, 4 Def
Toxic
Recover
Scald
Protect

Corsola is more used for if I need to eke out a battle. Toxic, Recover and Protect are good for stalling out the opponent, but unfortunately, weak attacking stats and only one attacking move (Scald) mean that it shouldn't be counted on to kill anything. Luckily, I haven't really had to use it yet, as Terrakion and Azelf usually clean up.

I also have Mightyena (still powerleveling to Level 50), Beldum (untouched, just got it off Steven's desk) and Mesprit (perfect Special Attack and Speed, but untouched) as alternates.
 

Arhops

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So over the past week I finished up ORAS, got breeding items, set up Exp. Secret Bases, and decided to build a Battle Maison team:


Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Power-Up Punch
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
(This is 5iv but the missing stat is special attack so it doesn't matter)


Suicune @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 236 HP / 212 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
- Icy Wind
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Scald
(This is 31/x/31/x/31/around 19ish/)


Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
(This is 6iv)

So far my record is 45 wins, rounds 1-15 are generally where I will get paralyzed or confused out of my streak, and past 40 I keep on running into the veteran trainer who runs Terrakion and Zapdos. Terrakion and whatever follows it usually kill Kangaskhan and wear down most of Suicune's HP, leaving my Aegislash which can't reliably win against Zapdos (heat wave crits, thunder wave hax, ect).

So am I playing this match-up wrong, or do I need to rethink my team?

(I'll edit in a replay in once my 3ds is online again.)

edit: 9V4W-WWWW-WW2H-3QSQ
 
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So over the past week I finished up ORAS, got breeding items, set up Exp. Secret Bases, and decided to build a Battle Maison team:


Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Power-Up Punch
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
(This is 5iv but the missing stat is special attack so it doesn't matter)


Suicune @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 236 HP / 212 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
- Icy Wind
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Scald
(This is 31/x/31/x/31/around 19ish/)


Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
(This is 6iv)

So far my record is 45 wins, rounds 1-15 are generally where I will get paralyzed or confused out of my streak, and past 40 I keep on running into the veteran trainer who runs Terrakion and Zapdos. Terrakion and whatever follows it usually kill Kangaskhan and wear down most of Suicune's HP, leaving my Aegislash which can't reliably win against Zapdos (heat wave crits, thunder wave hax, ect).

So am I playing this match-up wrong, or do I need to rethink my team?

(I'll edit in a replay in once my 3ds is online again.)
There is not a single veteran trainer that like regularly runs Terrakion and Zapdos; I suppose it's unlucky if you got that line-up multiple times in a row, but veterans just run all legendaries (though specific sets thereof).

Are you using the damage calculator, speed tiers, and Pokémon/trainer data lists? You could probably avoid getting Kangaskhan killed if you make a point to regularly check all these things before making your first move. For instance, Terrakion 1 & 2 both outspeed Kangaskhan prior to its Mega Evolving and OHKO with Fighting-type attacks. Sucker Punch is a lost cause, Mega Evolved or not. So you can either sacrifice Kangaskhan unnecessarily... or predict the Fighting attack and switch to Aegislash which obviously tanks it, and if it's Terrakion 2 you are then immune to its Choice-locked Sacred Sword. That's just an example of how using the data can help you come to a win where playing on intuition would lead to a loss. If you don't already use the data, I recommend seeing how far you can get with it.
 
So over the past week I finished up ORAS, got breeding items, set up Exp. Secret Bases, and decided to build a Battle Maison team:


Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Power-Up Punch
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
(This is 5iv but the missing stat is special attack so it doesn't matter)


Suicune @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 236 HP / 212 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
- Icy Wind
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Scald
(This is 31/x/31/x/31/around 19ish/)


Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
(This is 6iv)

So far my record is 45 wins, rounds 1-15 are generally where I will get paralyzed or confused out of my streak, and past 40 I keep on running into the veteran trainer who runs Terrakion and Zapdos. Terrakion and whatever follows it usually kill Kangaskhan and wear down most of Suicune's HP, leaving my Aegislash which can't reliably win against Zapdos (heat wave crits, thunder wave hax, ect).

So am I playing this match-up wrong, or do I need to rethink my team?

(I'll edit in a replay in once my 3ds is online again.)
In the battle you're describing (with a lead Terrakion), it's better to go to Aegislash to scout the set (Close Combat = set 1, Sacred Sword = set 2) and act accordingly (set up on set 2, switch to Suicune for set 1 to stall it out of Close Combats). You want to avoid sacrificing MegaKhan whenever possible.

The team itself has bunches of problems, though. This is a prime example how three very good Pokemon (all of whom have been on Singles teams with over 1500 wins) can really struggle without the right synergy. In this case, you have nothing to protect you from Electric-types. Mega Kangaskhan is the most valuable Pokemon on the team, but it's risking Static paralysis from Zapdos and TBolt/Thunder paralysis from every Electric-type that outspeeds it. If MegaMom gets crippled and goes down, your other two Pokemon are in a lot of danger against something that can hit very hard off the bat or can set up (think Tornadus1, Terrakion3, Garchomp4, etc).

Looking at the top Singles teams, they all run: 1) Gliscor, who doesn't care about most Electric-types, 2) Durant, who enables them to not care about basically anything the AI is doing, and/or 3) Chansey, who rarely cares about Electric-types OR paralysis. My Togekiss/Aegislash/MegaKhan team used Safeguard and Yawn to protect against threatening Electrics, but it still really didn't like them (bc they could crit and OHKO Togekiss). The "best of the rest" is Garchomp, who is a viable choice that does well against most Electric-types and can OHKO Terrakion (but who needs a Scarf to avoid a 2HKO from Terrakion1's Close Combat). While it seems logical to replace Suicune (to keep Aegislash's role of beating Fighting-types), it's probably a better idea to replace Aegislash, since otherwise nothing on your team will be able to take burns particularly well. If you use Gliscor over Aegislash, you're running Jumpman's Kangliscune; if you choose Garchomp over Aegislash, you're vulnerably to Donphan4's Quick Claw Fissures.

I'd say Substitute is a better "beginner's move" on Suicune than Icy Wind. It gives you something to beat the dreaded Walrein4, and Icy Wind is less helpful when you don't have something like Gliscor, who can come in basically for free against a lot of opponents. It depends on what your third Pokemon is, though, since Icy Wind is helpful if your third can capitalize on the speed drops. But having something on your team is usually a good idea, since it gives you good protection against OHKO moves and potentially buys you free turns when you outspeed and block a status move.

Good luck!
 
Set-up moves are viable in Singles, but Doubles is far too fast-paced to count on using Swords Dance or Nasty Plot. Spread moves are weakened in Doubles, so an unSTAB'd Earthquake will struggle to even 2HKO most opponents. Maybe Garchomp if you want to spam Earthquake?
 
Set-up moves are viable in Singles, but Doubles is far too fast-paced to count on using Swords Dance or Nasty Plot. Spread moves are weakened in Doubles, so an unSTAB'd Earthquake will struggle to even 2HKO most opponents. Maybe Garchomp if you want to spam Earthquake?
You could make Nasty Plot or Swords Dance work if you're using a) something that already has a lot of strength in that stat and b) Mat Block Greninja; just look at turskain's 732 streak with NP Lucario alongside MB Greninja. But you really can't use two set-up sweepers in doubles, especially when one is as frail as Azelf.
 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
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Also note that the Suicune set and EV spread you use are tailored specifically to beat Garchomp4 by barely outspeeding it after an Icy Wind. With an imperfect Speed IV, you fail to hit this benchmark, so you may want to consider adjusting your EV spread and/or your set. I'm a big fan of Substitute + Chesto Berry on Suicune, as my singles streaks show, and if you go with such a set, 107 Speed is a good target, as it avoids Speed ties, requires relatively low investment, and outspeeds enough of what you really need to.
 
Set-up moves are viable in Singles, but Doubles is far too fast-paced to count on using Swords Dance or Nasty Plot. Spread moves are weakened in Doubles, so an unSTAB'd Earthquake will struggle to even 2HKO most opponents. Maybe Garchomp if you want to spam Earthquake?
I was thinking about that, and will start DexNav chaining for Gible and use the Choice Band. Unfortunately, I can't use Mega Chomp, due to the absurd method of getting it...
 
Why DexNav chaining? For better IVs? That's what breeding is for :p
Yeah, but I actually need a Gible first. I have Spore and False Swipe on a Breloom, but they keep waking up right away and then committing suicide with Take Down. I'm going to use an Axew to get Outrage and the actual IVs onto it.
 
Hi everyone. I'm new to Smogon and willing to compete in the Battle Maison. I don't own X/Y nor ORAS so I was wondering which one is better for the maison (breeding facilities, getting hidden abilities easier and this kind of stuff). Also, is there any thread about how to breed perfect pokes?

Thanks in advance!
 

Lumari

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TFP Leader
Hi everyone. I'm new to Smogon and willing to compete in the Battle Maison. I don't own X/Y nor ORAS so I was wondering which one is better for the maison (breeding facilities, getting hidden abilities easier and this kind of stuff). Also, is there any thread about how to breed perfect pokes?

Thanks in advance!
Easily ORAS, because of the move tutors if anything. The breeding facilities are a bit better too; as for hidden abilities, there are potentially more available in XY, but that depends on how many friend safaris you can get access to, and by default there are more available in ORAS. The only thing about ORAS is that a couple very good Pokemon are exclusive to XY (e.g. Gliscor, Kangaskhan, Scizor too iirc but that one really wants tutor moves anyways), but unlike the move tutors you only have to acquire those once and can then breed from them. (And apart from Zapdos, all usable legendaries are exclusive to ORAS too, if you can't get them from previous generations)

as for breeding perfect mons, you can use this
 

NoCheese

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At long last the Battle Maison article that The Dutch Plumberjack and I co-wrote is live on-site! Read it here. Hope you enjoy it!

Huge thanks to everyone who made comments and suggestions, and to the whole Maison community for discussing your teams thoroughly in this thread, as without this discussion, the article probably never happens! I'm especially grateful to anto, who put in a TON of work HTMLizing the article and designing the on-site layout, and to Malley and P Squared, who very carefully GPed it.

In an unrelated note, I'm going to be out of town for a week starting Sunday, with extremely limited internet access, so I don't anticipate being able to update the leaderboard during that time.
 

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