Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Imperator Romanum]

Crawdaunt: B > B-

I'm going to have to disagree with Crawdaunt dropping, when you look at what's changed there's two things in its favour Hoopa and Weavie. Hoopa has to have drain punch to really dent it and Aqua Jet does a ton, it's also a nifty check to Weavile which still troubles stall immensely as little likes switching into its stabs, the choice band set is nifty, even resisted hits don't enjoy switching in

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 204-241 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 157-185 (51.1 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All around a really threatening pokemon and an excellent wallbreaker.

 

[kumiko]

A little more reasoning on

and

:
I'm not going to bother explaining why Garchomp is good; everyone knows it's a great 'Mon and why it's the most common. However, even with the positives Garchomp have and how easy it is to fit it on a team, it isn't quite up to par with the rest of S Rank. If you look at S rank, everything is extremely threatening and have multiple sets that are just as viable as the most common one. Altaria can run multiple different variants of Dragon Dance; Earthquake, Refresh/Heal Bell, Fire Blast, and Cotton Guard. Although the latter two are very matchup reliant, the first two are extremely threatening and dictate the metagame quite a lot. Every team needs a way to handle Altaria. Garchomp, on the other hand, isn't the same. Garchomp is a very threatening defensive threat; it can be quite a nuisance to some popular Mega Evolutions, such as Mega Scizor and Mega Lopunny, but it is a 'Mon that will get worn down fast and can be over pressured due to team support. Garchomp's more offensive sets are pretty underrated, but they don't dictate teambuilding the same way Altaria does. Life Orb Garchomp is a very potent threat, but it doesn't provide the defensive utility Rocky Helmet Garchomp does. Salac Garchomp is very matchup reliant; it will get a chance to sweep or it won't based off of team preview. Some teams just don't give away free turns to Garchomp, which prevent it from setting up. After that there aren't any Garchomp sets that have a niche over some other 'Mons. It has a lot of utility, but it isn't a surefire counter to any 'Mon it's used for. Mega Lopunny commonly runs Ice Punch to get past it, Scizor is capable of wearing it down while also dictating the use of Fire Blast, and Mega Metagross can easily run Ice Punch to handle it.

Tank Garchomp is far and beyond the easiest Pokemon to slap on a team. However, not every Pokemon is amazing just because it's easy to fit on a team. Latios was the most used Pokemon in all of WCoP, but it isn't S worthy for a multitude of reasons. Garchomp is similar, in the fact that it is a great Pokemon with a lot of reasons to be used, but lacking the reasoning to be S.

When Landorus was around, Mega Latias had a lot of utility; not only as a simple check, but being a very annoying Pokemon with a lot of defensive utility. The biggest reason to use it has been gone for a few months, but it still has plenty of reasons to be used. It's not quite as good as the threats in A- or A, although it has plenty of niche. The CM Stored Power set is overrated and even if "unprepared teams" are weak to it, it takes a lot to pull off successful sweep. It can sweep, but it's a lot easier to do so on paper, especially in a high level game.

Anyway, in regards to the current slate:

D -> C
After the Landorus ban, people joked about using Nidoking as a replacement. Nidoking, even if it was just a joke at first, is a legitimate threat in OU. Not many teams are capable of handling it efficiently, as people will only worry about handling some physical Ground types, such as Garchomp, Landorus-Therian, and Excadrill, when picking how to handle Ground types in general. Nidoking also has some great coverage options, as well as Sucker Punch to scare out Latios and Latias. Nidoking also has a huge niche in the fact it absolutely ravages Clefable, even at +1. Nidoking can take on any Clefable set reliably and beat it as long as Nidoking isn't too low or if the Clefable has Ice Beam. Nidoking saw some good use in WCoP, and proved itself to be a big threat (see: 1, 2, & 3). I find it hard to believe anything in D or C- is better than it.

A -> A+
Yeah, this thing is insanely common, to the point where a lot of teams run ways to lure this or just dictate the use of a Magnezone. Even with all of this, Ferrothorn is still an insanely good 'Mon. The amount of support Ferrothorn provides to a team is huge; it checks Altaria, Gardevoir, Azumarill, Latios, Mega Gyarados, Manaphy, and Weavile. Although all of them, aside from Gyarados, could potentially hit Ferrothorn with a Super Effective move, all are still forced out by Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn may be a defensive 'Mon, but it takes advantages of free turns so much. No team enjoys giving away free turns to a 'Mon that can abuse them by stacking layers and and throwing out multiple Leech Seeds. Mega Sableye and Magnezone the only 'Mons that neutralize Ferrothorn and don't mind giving it any free turns. Ferrothorn definitely has its issues, but I don't think they outshine its positives.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Actually, Victreebell can a lot of times run a physical set and even prefer it. With its decent 105 attack, high BP Power Whip, and access of growth to allow it to still use its poison stab effectively (So... Sludge Bomb) as well as its physical pool the set works quite well. Power Whip is considerably stronger than Giga Drain, and as for Solarbeam, it isn't reliant on Sun as well as hitting a tad bit harder due to th higher base stat. Finally, its access to Sucker Punch makes it further less dependant on sun and more liking to a more physically based set.

But yea Venusaur is the better Mon, I agree. Not sure why we're talking about Bell when Venu is a bit more above the cut, but then again Bell actually isn't that bad.

Sun isn't too good but I do think that Venu allows a poor archetype to be a lot more threatening (Chlorosaur is insanely scary) so I think it deserves the move up. Maybe C-? But higher than D for sure


EDIT: oh crap I forgot this thing gets weather ball too D: another niche!

 

[Kutscher]

I kinda disagree with venusaur rising, while is the best sun sweeper in the tier, he have to mutch problem to perfectly work, only 2 turns to use his ability, and he isn't that bulky to switch into something. Use growth in sun to take defensive mons(you dont need sun to outspeed Them) is good on paper, but you will notice that set up is very dificult(special if you switch in an attack) and a combo of char-y + venu make your team very weak to latios, witch means you need a pursuit trapper, venu needs to mutch support and doesent work to well. I think D is fine

 

[AM]

Henry asked me originally what Nidoqueen does, cause what Nidoking does is quite obvious in that it provides a wall-breaking aspect to a team. Nidoqueen, or at least the way I believe it should be used, is more akin to its role in UU as an offensive rocker, more specifically a tank depending on your preference of term. Sludge Wave, Earth Power, Coverage, Stealth Rocks with spreads customizable based on defensive benchmark and team needs is the set that holds merit. TDK and others already explained why Nidoking should rise, and I believe that Nidoqueens utility as a rocker that is able to threaten a majority of hazard setters and some removers puts it on par with Nidokings wall-breaking capabilities and as such they both deserve a rise. Whether that be to C or C- I would be perfectly fine with, with importance that being a Clefable check not liable to Thunder Wave has a ton of value on its that could put it above the C- level to some.

With Garchomp staying in A+, Azumarill probably should stay there as well. I think Azumarill is one of the most annoying Pokemon but I can admit that it's not really on the level of the current S rank as of now and Garchomps splashability and role compression gives it a bit more overall viability than Azumarills who has roles that are quite linear.

Ferrothorn I believe is kind of an overrated Pokemon for hitting the criteria of A+ rank a bit and is what I find somewhat like M-Scizor to be a punisher of subpar team-building, thus the hype it gets amongst people. Howeveeeer, I also think some people entirely opposed to it moving up sort of underestimate all the utility it provides to your usual balanced and defensive teams. TDK pretty much hit the nail on the head with it so I won't go into to much detail but being one of the most consistent spikers in the tier is a godsend for long term game plan along with a Pokemon necessitating stuff like Mega Altaria to have Fire Blast to come close to breaking it. I don't really mind where it goes, A or A+ is fine by me.

I'm neutral on Gengar because it always becomes of a question of which player you're really asking and there's no clear cut and dry point of debating it when the theorymon behind both sides argument is always exaggerated and in practice it depends which matchup and moveset it's going up against. Going down to A isn't obvious but neither is staying at A+.

Klefki has been hinted a bunch of times to rise and arguments for it not to rise are always "well it only provides support traits but no real threatening presence." I mean you're not really suppose to be using it on the notion that it's going to pose any sort of immediate threat, its utility is based on a long term goal for offensively inclined teams consolidating some key roles in being a Latios switch in, Weavile switch in, with the defensive traits that being both a Fairy and Steel provide, and the usual traits it provides. I don't think this can be stressed enough seeing as how most offensive teams are gonna be able to cover one with one Pokemon but not necessarily both of them or even more in one team slot. It's purely a utility Pokemon, its ranking should reflect the consistency of these traits not an offensive aspect trying to be forced out. It's gotten better because offense has gotten better and is one of the few consistent spikers offense can afford without losing momentum.

I think Scarf Hydreigon sucks btw. Hoopa-U being in the tier doesn't really invalidate or make Hydreigon less appealing as being a Dragon provides it key resistances and a pseudo immunity to ground due to levitate to work with a lot of consistent threats well. Some of these include Mega Scizor due to its Life Orb variant cushioning up defensive cores to supplement an SD sweep, Mega Lopunny to nurture fat psychics that are the checks to the bunny on most builds, along with a couple of viable coverage moves to help with wall-breaking and a strong offensive combination to make it hard to switch into for fatter teams. There's this misconception though that Flash Cannon nurtures fairies and while on paper people will say "it hits fairies on the switch ins" is a huge over exaggeration that realistically will not happen. If you're lucky you'll break down a weakened Clefable or Gardevoir before it megas with Flash Cannon but this isn't an argument in its favor because practically it's unrealistic. I think as a wall-breaker though it's fine in B+ and poses more of an immediate threat than the majority of the B ranks anyways.

Reuniclus kind of just sucks now you can kind of gas up the Calm Mind set all you want but Dark being one of the best offensive typings in the tier right in the form of the threats themselves along with Pursuit makes a defensive Psychic Reuniclus unappealing as opposed to something such as Slowbro. Mega Scizors, Weaviles, Hoopa-U presence for awhile now has actually made this harder to justify a slot in general, because in order to counteract some of the problems Reuniclus has you need to run specific stuff such as Colbur Berry for Dark types as one example. Reuniclus doesn't pose enough of a real threat level to be with stuff like Feraligatr, Breloom, Suicune, Mamoswine since it'll excel against a handful of threats while being deadweight against others based on item and move choice. It's much more appropriate it to put it in the realm of B, goes with most of them much better than the B+ stuff.

Azelf is just bad. A tier focused on make use of every tool possible in terms of role compression doesn't reward a team that is practically a 5v6 with the 5 being the Azelf user. Its role isn't close to appealing because the placement of a rocker on offensive teams has been mandated to the likes of Lando-T and Garchomp as two of the primary examples, and to be honest I don't think an explanation is needed as to why. High octane offensive teams still want to have something that in the worst of scenarios pose some sort of defensive benefits in this meta, Lando-T as a hindrance to Excadrill and Garchomp being well, Garchomp lol. It's been in need of a drop since the rise of tank chomp and the higher speed threshold that offense has naturally been bumped up to.

Venusaur isn't even that bad and D is just really low for it. A misconception is that Char-Y is the sun abuser paired with it all the time when that's simply not true, with stuff like Sunny Day Klefki supplementing it, so the Lati weakness becomes a moot point in my eyes. Thing is actually stupid under sun, and granted sun isn't necessarily a great playstyle, but I can assure you it's more consistent than half the entire rank of the letter C in general when provided this.

No comment on Goodra, used it like once, not enough for me to formulate a good opinion.

No comment on Shaymin as I'm more just impartial on its placement and don't really mind where it goes.

Crawdaunt is a really overrated wall-breaker. Its prominence came at the time of Italian Offense but that was several meta shifts ago during XY and we're beyond the point where Crawdaunt needs to be justified as a decent wall-breaker. There's actually not many if any opportunities where it'll legitimately get to set up and you won't be breaking too many walls or teams with it in the long run based on what your average team looks like these days. Crawdaunts effectiveness is on par with the wallbreakers in B- like tyrantrum and its overall effectiveness is more in line with stuff like Toxicroak and Conkeldurr. On paper it's good, in practice it's just an average B- Pokemon.

 

[FaZeBoo]

Crawdaunt: B > B-

I'm going to have to disagree with Crawdaunt dropping, when you look at what's changed there's two things in its favour Hoopa and Weavie. Hoopa has to have drain punch to really dent it and Aqua Jet does a ton, it's also a nifty check to Weavile which still troubles stall immensely as little likes switching into its stabs, the choice band set is nifty, even resisted hits don't enjoy switching in

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 204-241 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 157-185 (51.1 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All around a really threatening pokemon and an excellent wallbreaker.

I understand you said switch in, but in this case, altaria is faster and a return will obliterate it.
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 464-548 (173.1 - 204.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
lol i support crawdaunt dropping, its best niche is trick room, where it hits insanely hard, but trick room is pretty one dimensional (no pun intended) in the fact that you can see it from a mile away and it is set for X amount of turns instead of a boosted amount such as weather. Also, as everybody else in front of me said, it gets huge competition from the likes of other dark stab knock off users. Overall, crawdaunt is a very frail revenge able mon, especially if you are resisted to aqua jet. Crawdaunt to B-

 

[Anduril]

I've been using SD Crawdaunt lately and it's been very disappointing. It's frailness is really annoying meaning you will only be able to get it in via Volturn or doubles, and it also really hurts its ability to consistently set up. The overall shift to more offensively inclined teams also hurts Crawdaunt because although it can harass the style with Adaptability Aqua Jet, the list of things that can comfortably take it is long. Serperior, Latios, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, and Keldeo can all take a hit and force it out easily. While Crawdaunt can still put in work against balance cores and stall, the difficulty it finds in setting up along with its fragility makes me think a drop is warranted.

 

[Dread Arceus]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-259921689
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-259924812

A couple of replays demonstrating what Goodra can do. The first one shows how it can switch in to Thundurus-I multiple times, and the second one shows how difficult it is to switch in to (and how relatively unprepared for it/unsure what to do against it people are). While it's clearly not the hardest-hitting thing in the world, it's an unbelievably tanky and can hit most things for super-effective damage depending on moveset

 

[Kappa Squared]

First time posting here, just going to jot some opinions of mine down :)

Gengar: A+ -> A: Agreed
As offense has a greater presence nowadays, so does things like Lopunny, Starmie, Weavile, Tornadus, Talonflame, and Scizor. These are all mons that can easily beat Gengar. Additionally, it's role of stallbreaking is becoming less useful. Life Orb wears it down easily into priority range, and it doesn't even hit that hard as a wallbeaker. 130 base is more underwhelming than it used to. Additionally, even it's speed sucks, as it ties with so many 'mons it can otherwise beat, and is outsped easily. HexGar is a really solid set as well, but it requires lots of team support and is definitely not keeping it in A+. Still really threatening, so A is a good place for it imo.

Shaymin: D -> C-: Agreed
I've used this quite a bit, and while it's one of my favorite pokemon, it's sort of shit. Seed Flare is a blessing and a curse in it's great power and 40% SpDef drop chance, allowing it to force lots of switches. It's 85% accuracy is annoying, but the real downfall is its 8 PP. Since it's so spammable (fishing for those drops and everything) you will run out of them half your games. That being said, it can take down almost everything with a drop. It's still walled by Talon and Tornadus-T. Rest + Natural Cure is a lot more effective in practice than in theory, especially with it's decent 100/100/100 bulk. C- is a great place, but it's a bit better than most of the D mons.

 

[MikeDawg]

I already argued to death against shaymin. No need for me to do so again.

Discussion pretty much climaxes here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...st-2831-page-114.3536420/page-85#post-6338443


tl;dr: The only thing shaymin has is seed flare vs leaf storm. Shaymin is getting forced out turn 2 anyway, so the -2 spatt drop isn't much to boast about. Both are still setup bait for altaria and co. Otherwise, celebi has an infinitely larger movepool (seed flare is the only thing it lacks), is infinitely less predictable, has a more useful typing*, and has an extra stab. There is absolutely no reason for a shaymin rise, especially when the meta just took a turn towards the offense.

*

Weavile has ice/dark stab. Hoopa has poison/dark coverage. Gengar has poison/ghost stab. Chandelure has ghost/fire stab. Alakazam and co 2hkos shaymin with psychic even with shadow ball neutrality, Celebi probably beats bisharp more often than shaymin in practice (who sucker punches a celebi? It can lure it at the very least).

Psychic + fighting resists are stellar for obvious reasons

 

[thesecondbest]

Venu - How can you put this so high when Victreebel, which I can argue to be barely worse, is not ranked at all? They both have the same moves and same special attack. Venu is slightly bulkier and barely faster, although that doesn't really matter if you have Chlorophyll, but Victreebel has higher physical attack. So if you move Venu up, and I think C is okay - one rank below the rain mons since rain is quite a bit better - put Victreebel in D.
Craw - I mean life orb daunt is as strong as banded azu, plus crabhammer is stronger than waterfall. The bulk is bad but the SD set is probably around as good as BD azu in terms of bulk and only slightly weaker. I'm against a rise for azu though and tbh this is ass too. So I wouldn't be opposed to a drop. Why is this banned from UU again? Just too frail. Like a bad Hoopa-U.
Goodra - This mon is so frustrating to face lol. It's like AV TTar, people laugh at you for using it but it is soooooo bulky. So sure rise it.
Shaymin - Yeah I've actually seen this quite a bit on the ladder and the scarf set is decent. But it just lacks strength. Even with a 120 base power move i can shrug off a hit. With Weavile rampant I don't know why it is being nmmed to rise. Tons of other things in D and E that need rises before it. Nidos, Meloetta, Machamp, Exploud, Zoroark, Yanmega. So no way.
And a bunch of other noms but im lazy. So drop Gar im OK with, and Azelf shouldn't drop. I don't think you guys understand how strong of a move Explosion is. It's not 5v6 after this guy goes, it's like 5v5.3 and you have rocks.

Also, less than a month ago AM said this:
"To me none. I think A+ is fine how it is personally for the time being."
And now the team is pushing everything to S, but at the same time Metagross dropped. And other people are pushing Chomp and Torn-T to S and stuff like that. The metagame is still evolving a lot. So when I saw in Policy Review that Manaphy and Hoopa-U were about to be suspected, as well as STag, I was very surprised. Can we hold off on this and wait for the meta to stabilize? Like the number one guy on ladder has a Virizion and an Emboar. The meta is balanced and many different teams are viable (I'd also point out that Shedinja team running around, all sorts of strategies are viable). So can we hold off on the banhammer for a while?

 

[TheJFrenzy1]

Azelf - I am in support of a drop for this thing. It's rather underwhelming as the introduction of team preview has made the 'dedicated lead' role a largely obsolete one. It loses hands down to tank chomp, defensive lando-t and mega sab. People are also aware of explosion and it's normally the only attack it ever runs bar fire blast making it pretty easy to handle with mons like heatran, mixed def hippo, ttar etc. It's pretty much as AM said you're basically playing 5v6 the 5 user being Azelf as the only thing Azelf is ever going to do is set up rocks and explode. B -> B- : Agreed

Crawdaunt - Having personally used Crawdaunt and having a semi-decent amount of success with it and it's pretty average. It rarely ever gets an opportunity to set up vs anything due large amount of things of things that threaten it such as Thundy-I, Serp, Venu, pretty much anything faster that isn't weak water can force it out. Then bunch this in with the fact that it's pretty hard to get in safely without U-turn/Volt Switch support and you have a pokemon that won't really be doing anything most games. It has a usable niche as it breaks stall incredibly well, but there are just other mons that do this better. B -> B- : Agreed

 

[Dread Arceus]

I already argued to death against shaymin. No need for me to do so again.

Discussion pretty much climaxes here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...st-2831-page-114.3536420/page-85#post-6338443


tl;dr: The only thing shaymin has is seed flare vs leaf storm. Shaymin is getting forced out turn 2 anyway, so the -2 spatt drop isn't much to boast about. Both are still setup bait for altaria and co. Otherwise, celebi has an infinitely larger movepool (seed flare is the only thing it lacks), is infinitely less predictable, has a more useful typing*, and has an extra stab. There is absolutely no reason for a shaymin rise, especially when the meta just took a turn towards the offense.

*

Weavile has ice/dark stab. Hoopa has poison/dark coverage. Gengar has poison/ghost stab. Chandelure has ghost/fire stab. Alakazam and co 2hkos shaymin with psychic even with shadow ball neutrality, Celebi probably beats bisharp more often than shaymin in practice (who sucker punches a celebi? It can lure it at the very least).

Psychic + fighting resists are stellar for obvious reasons

Offense is why it should rise. It didn't bring just seed flare, but also good bulk as I've started before, allowing it to actually switch in to things. Also you completely neglect to mention Ttar in your post about typing...and Mega Gyarados, which is a large part if why you would use Shaymin in the first place. And while Shaymin doesn't do well against Weav or Bish either, it also doesn't take a ton of damage from getting pursuit trapped.

 

[Flamer]

thesecondbest
I really dont agree that the meta is still evolving at all, in fact one might argue its in a more stale state than anything. Many of the nominations for S havent really been warranted at all and granted there are still some slight changes in the meta, there hasnt been anything significant since lando-Is ban. Argue all you want about Hoopa invalidating stall but stall was never an amazing playstyle at the time and the fact that almost the exact same teams are running around pre and post hoopa indicates that it really hasnt had as big of an impact as most people are making out. In fact, the best time for suspects to take place is during a period of stability so that a choice can be made based on how the meta should actually look so I dont see your logic in not suspecting them.

Implying that because the number one guy uses Emboar and virizion the meta isnt stable is about as logical as saying Choice band Rampardos OHKOs a fuckton of stuff and should be sent to ubers. The fact that someone can make it to the top with subpar mons is more a testament to the low quality of the ladder than anything regarding stability. I also dont buy that many different teams are viable, you will generally see the same teams with really minor changes and theres not really much versatility, which again is indicative that the metagame is stagnant and needs some sort of change.

I still dont really understand why a lot of discussion points are based on changing the upper rankings. Other than Klefki and imo Mega-Venusaur, there isnt really anything that should rise and nothing should really drop except Celebi i guess. The lower rankings are rife with inconsistencies, for example espeon and M-banette really have no place in their ranks and the Nidos and Cofagrigis deserve to be higher as well as a host of others and I cant see the reason why they are not discussion points rather than the Garchomp discussion which was really pointless as well as the current Azu discussion which I dont see going anywhere either. The metagame hasnt changed for a reason, because its stable and the top mons are all roughly the same viability.

 

[AM]

I mean in the end it doesnt actually matter cause this isnt the place to talk about suspects either. Carry on.

 

[serperioriscool]

My opinion on some of the topics (:
Azumarill: A+ -> S:
I would probably agree with this before, but the more I look at Azu, the more flaws I see
It's extremely low speed forces it to rely on Aqua Jet which is pretty weak. It's main sets (BD and CB) require a lot of prediction to work
It can easily be worn down and it defenses are the best
Plus, if chomp doesn't go to S then I don't think Azu should either
Gengar: A+ -> A
I have to agree. Stall is pretty much dead at this point and Offense has threats that easily outspeed and kill Gengar
It's also really weak to Weavile which eats it for breakfast.
Klefki: A- -> A
Agree on this. It fits on all playstyles and provides hazard support, dual screens, Prankster TWave, etc
It's also one of the few switchins to hoopa-U (until it starts running Fire Punch..)
Reuniclus: B+ -> B
The abundance of Hoopa-U and Weavile really doesn't help it at all
It's easily pursuit trapped and is dead weight against offense
It should really Drop
Nidoking: D -> C-/C
Really the closest thing we have to Lando since it got banned. Extremely hard to switch into, but it's a bit slow. Keeping it at C- would be fine IMO
Goodra: C > C+
It's one of the best counters to Thundy and CharY. Colourful movepool allows it to dent about everything. It should rise IMO

 

[BlazeLatias]

I'm on mobile so I'm just gonna say my thoughts on klefki.

Honestly klefki is a really nice mon ATM because of its nice ability to set up spikes pretty reliably thanks to having pretty solid typing,bulk and priority spikes which is really nice in this meta as spikes stack as its always been nice to get those extra kos that rocks alone wont nab. Klefki also is really nice when it comes to stuff like mega diancie,malt and weavile because klefki can check and beat them(this is minor compared to his fantastic support). Klefkis is a pretty mice supporting mon for offensive teams because of that and its ability to force switches or get hit by t-wave. Also is a nice screen setter. This thing definetly needs to rise.

 

[Halcyon.]

Klefki is great. Spikes and hazards in general are awesome because all of the hazard removal mons suck with the exception of maybe Latios, but even that is super easy to take advantage of. Def Starmie gives Zard X a free switch as well as other stuff like Serperior (unless you pack T wave like a jabroni). Latias is just all around weak and even easier to take advantage of than lati, which can actually threaten mons like Bisharp and Scizor and Heatran. Excadrill is ok, but it would rather have Swords Dance unless it;s Scarf, in which case it's SUPER easy to just switch into your rocker and set them up again (it loses to like every rocker besides Jirachi and Heatran). Klefki sets up hazards very easily thanks to its awesome typing and provides a ton of utility in Thunder Wave, Heal Block, Toxic, Foul Play, Fairy Lock, etc. I'd totally raise it to A. an offensive hazards based meta is much better for it than the old one was.

 

[Red Troodon]

A -> A+ There probably isnt a pokemon I hate more than this shit. Despite its bitchy play style, its a great defense. However, everyone is out to lure it. With things like megazard y, hp fire m-venu, flamethrower manectric, hp fire starmie in A rank, I feel the 4x weakness is enough to say it doesn't belong in A+. A+ simply outclasses ferrothorn. i mean ferrothron is only a threat to diancie in the A+ list.

A- -> A sure. great ability, good typing, wide movepool. why not
twave slows down dragon dancers
manget rise to troll garchomp
fairy lock is good to help set up another pokemon on your team

probably the best trollmon

 

[Flygonial]

A -> A+ There probably isnt a pokemon I hate more than this shit. Despite its bitchy play style, its a great defense. However, everyone is out to lure it. With things like megazard y, hp fire m-venu, flamethrower manectric, hp fire starmie in A rank, I feel the 4x weakness is enough to say it doesn't belong in A+. A+ simply outclasses ferrothorn. i mean ferrothron is only a threat to diancie in the A+ list.

If you're going to go by the logic of what it beats in A+, then you're dismissing Mega Gyarados, Azumarill (Definitely not a counter though), and a few other pokemon that it doesn't necessarily wall but is irritating to such as Thundurus without Focus Blast, Latios without HP Fire, and Hippowdon. Additionally, for higher up threats in S-Rank, it's pretty irritating for Manaphy and DD MAlt as well. I really don't follow you when you say that A+ 'simply outclasses Ferrothorn', so I'd like to ask for clarification on that. I personally don't care for Ferrothorn's placement, but I don't really find that you've made a convincing argument against it rising.

 

[Red Troodon]

If you're going to go by the logic of what it beats in A+, then you're dismissing Mega Gyarados, Azumarill (Definitely not a counter though), and a few other pokemon that it doesn't necessarily wall but is irritating to such as Thundurus without Focus Blast, Latios without HP Fire, and Hippowdon. Additionally, for higher up threats in S-Rank, it's pretty irritating for Manaphy and DD MAlt as well. I really don't follow you when you say that A+ 'simply outclasses Ferrothorn', so I'd like to ask for clarification on that. I personally don't care for Ferrothorn's placement, but I don't really find that a convincing argument against it rising.

what i mean to say is essentially ferrothorn is great but because of how annoying it is, most of the meta is ready for it and wants to lure it. sure it can be trouble to some higher ups but if if ferrothorn forces them to switch out, there isnt much ferrothorn can do to punish. the best it can do it thunderwave/leech seed/set hazards(which most teams are capable of getting rid of). Ferrothorn will probably switch out, giving a free setup, or probably die depending on what pokemon was sent out. A+ pokemon seem to have better punishing options on predictable switch outs imo.

 

[Flygonial]

what i mean to say is essentially ferrothorn is great but because of how annoying it is, most of the meta is ready for it and wants to lure it. sure it can be trouble to some higher ups but if if ferrothorn forces them to switch out, there isnt much ferrothorn can do to punish. the best it can do it thunderwave/leech seed. A+ pokemon seem to have better capability on handling switch outs imo.

This is true for most of those pokemon except for a few exceptions: Hippowdon and Tank 'Chomp. Hippowdon realistically can only punish switch-ins with an attack, Toxic, Whirlwind, or the more obscure Yawn. 'Tank Chomp hits harder but can only either D-Tail or Toxic. Ferrothorn isn't even that passive for a defensive pokemon, with extremely high base power moves doing a good amount to neutral offensive targets, although it rarely has the luxury of running both. I can see where you're getting at with that and general preparation for it, though.

 

[Exeggutive]

Ferro is a solid A+ mon imo. It has great defensive typing and a ton of support moves so it can easily find a place on many balance teams as a glue mon and it fits in a lot of different cores. Its really common and most teams end up running lures to handle it since using checks like fire types are just so obvious that Ferro can just switch out.

For a defensive pokemon it's not incredibly passive either. It has strong STAB moves, Knock Off and Thunderwave to stop it from being setup fodder.

It's just so damn easy to fit on every bulky team and it does a good job at laying hazards and checking water types.

 

[micahclay]

what i mean to say is essentially ferrothorn is great but because of how annoying it is, most of the meta is ready for it and wants to lure it.

Not going to go too in depth (although I believe Ferro should be A+), but I don't think the amount of lures available is a good indicator of how well prepared for it is. Rather, it shows the measures that have to be taken to deal with it. If you have to go to great lengths to kill a pokemon, including using inferior sets on some pokemon (due to the inclusion of HP fire), that's more of an indicator of how absurdly good that pokemon is at its job. Resorting to using HP Fire lati@s or whatever shows how much of an effect Ferrothorn has on this metagame.

 

[Red Troodon]

Its really common and most teams end up running lures to handle it since using checks like fire types are just so obvious that Ferro can just switch out.

well lets say youre up against a mega zardx or tflame since. you can switch out and let it dragon dance/swords dance, or get ohko'd.
Or perhaps latios, where it could defog all the hazards ferro probably set up

Not going to go too in depth (although I believe Ferro should be A+), but I don't think the amount of lures available is a good indicator of how well prepared for it is. Rather, it shows the measures that have to be taken to deal with it. If you have to go to great lengths to kill a pokemon, including using inferior sets on some pokemon (due to the inclusion of HP fire), that's more of an indicator of how absurdly good that pokemon is at its job. Resorting to using HP Fire lati@s or whatever shows how much of an effect Ferrothorn has on this metagame.

not true. just because a pokemon has an effect to change the metagame it doesnt make it high tier. rank is based on viability and fire lures for ferrothorn arent necessarily bad. i mean fire is a pretty decent coverage type and counters other steel types like scizor and skarmory.