Ladder STABmons [OMotM November]

[Kingslayer2779]

So there won't be unbanning of mons like Deoxys Speed and Defense, or Aegislash? (Darkrai can stay Uber...)

Honestly someone has to explain to me what exactly makes these mons not broken in STABmons but broken in OU. Nothing gets a better movepool then Deoxys for hazard leads and there isn't much additional counterplay STABmons brings. Sure you can Fake Speed a Deo-S if you are offense, but thats the only additional option STABmons brings. And while Aegislash is no longer the only King's Shield user, it gains moves like Doom Desire and Shift Gear. It's counters are purely dependent on moveset and it has an amazing type. They should just stay banned.

 

[Josh]

Honestly someone has to explain to me what exactly makes these mons not broken in STABmons but broken in OU. Nothing gets a better movepool then Deoxys for hazard leads and there isn't much additional counterplay STABmons brings. Sure you can Fake Speed a Deo-S if you are offense, but thats the only additional option STABmons brings. And while Aegislash is no longer the only King's Shield user, it gains moves like Doom Desire and Shift Gear. It's counters are purely dependent on moveset and it has an amazing type. They should just stay banned.

Aegi needs to stay banned imo, but the deos are a different story.

What you have to realize, is deo-s and deo-d are barely broken in OU. They're close to being allowed. Then take these 2 mons and drop them in a tier where every mon gets it's dream moves. Deoxys-speed already has psycho boost, hazards, all of the coverage it needs, etc in standard play. Deoxys-defense, again, already has hazards, recovery, status moves, cosmic power, etc in standard play as well. Stabmons doesn't really benefit either of them at all. Considering they are barely banned in OU, now everything is a lot more powerful and they gained nothing from being offered additional stab moves. Literally nothing. That's why I doubt they'll be broken in stabmons.

 

[Akumeoy]

Aegi needs to stay banned imo, but the deos are a different story.

What you have to realize, is deo-s and deo-d are barely broken in OU. They're close to being allowed. Then take these 2 mons and drop them in a tier where every mon gets it's dream moves. Deoxys-speed already has psycho boost, hazards, all of the coverage it needs, etc in standard play. Deoxys-defense, again, already has hazards, recovery, status moves, cosmic power, etc in standard play as well. Stabmons doesn't really benefit either of them at all. Considering they are barely banned in OU, now everything is a lot more powerful and they gained nothing from being offered additional stab moves. Literally nothing. That's why I doubt they'll be broken in stabmons.

In particular, Deo-S suffers from a lot of things getting access to better priority to beat it out, while Deo-D has to deal with every Normal-type being a Rapid Spinner and every Flying-type being a Defogger.

 

[canno]

Deo-S and Deo-D are definitely still busted. The obvious reason why is that both of them can still just eject a million hazards - Deo-S might be a bit hampered by FakeSpeed, but Deo-D doesn't really care and Red Card as an item deals with it to an extent (depending on what comes in). Both of these things can stack hazards very hard, but they can also do other things. Deo-S didn't get much for its revenge killing set, but who cares? It's still a very deadly revenge killer / late-game cleaner because of how stupid fast it is. Meanwhile Deo-D can, in theory, run Cosmic Power + Stored Power. It's not the best user of this on a technical level, but the fact that it can run this and Hazard Stack makes it unstable. Granted, this isn't as bad as Deo-S's case as Revenge Killer / Late-Game Cleaner is very threatening as well while Cosmic + Stored Power isn't as threatening and slower, but the point still stands that both are very versatile.

Also, M-Sableye is not a 100% cold stop to Deo-S / Deo-D as you might think - Both of them can slap on Skill Swap alongside their hazards and continue on, although M-Sableye is probably the most reliable switch-in to both of them since it doesn't care about their other set. Defog and Rapid Spin aren't great answers to hazards, since Rapid Spin must be ran on a Normal-type (the only Pokemon I've seen use Rapid Spin that didn't learn it naturally is Stoutland. I can see Kanga running it though). Meanwhile Defog is reliable...except we somehow forgot about Bisharp or even Braviary, which can threaten to sweep or at the very least damage the opposing team. I don't foresee any of the Deoxys getting unbanned

 

[Kingslayer2779]

So i did some digging on Deo-S/D cause i didn't have a smogon when they were banned and i was pretty new to PS. They were both banned with around a 80% supermajority. This was the best post i could find regarding Deo's was this:

As an avid user of Hyper Offense I'd just like to throw in my 2 cents.

Deoxys-Defense: I've had a ton of experience with this thing, and it is bar none the most reliable hazards setter in OU (but you already knew that). What makes it so unique is the unreal combination of ubers-worthy bulk, decent speed (enough to outspeed most relevant things in OU that flat out OHKO it), and its access to an excellent support movepool. Another interesting thing to consider is how it can beat a lot of things that can potentially OHKO it or stop it from doing its job. Running Magic Coat lets it beat fast Taunters. Running Mirror Coat lets it beat non-LO Aegislash. Running Superpower + a few Atk EVs lets it OHKO the most common forms of Bisharp and start the game 5-5 with hazards (as opposed to 5-6 with hazards).

At this point, we have to ask ourselves: why would we use any other entry hazard lead? There's the option of Shuckle, who trades Spikes for Sticky Web, or Mamoswine/Landorus-I/Garchomp, who thrive on the instant offensive pressure that they generate upon entering the field. The problem with the latter is that they are unreliable. They must run a Focus Sash in order to not be instantly KOed by faster threats, which means a fast/priority Taunt will ensure they don't do their job.

We move on to Shuckle, who will surely be the HO lead of choice in the event of a Deo-D ban. The disadvantage of using Shuckle is that without the huge support movepool of Deo-D, it is easily exploited by a set-up sweeper early game. It is also slower than most common Defoggers, and can't do anything back to them (whereas Deo-D could just Taunt them and keep hazards in play). Shuckle is only used now for its niche of Sticky Web - that's all it has over Deo-D. Deo-D is better in every single way.

For this reason, it harms the diversity of the metagame. If you want an effective hazards user for a HO team, you run Deo-D. Nothing else.

Ban Deoxys-Defense

Deoxys-Speed: This thing is ridiculous. The amount of shit it can do is unreal. One of my most successful team has utilised the Dual Screens set to set up and start doing damage right off the bat. More recently, the new wave of Baton Pass teams have come under some fire, with some labelling them broken. Surely this is only because of the free turns that Deo-S provides with its screens support, forcing the opponent into the choice of Defogging away screens, or staring down a Scolipede with +2 Defense and screens support to boot. This strategy would be much less threatening should Deo-S see a ban.

In the previous Deo-S suspect test, the majority of Deo-S' were still hazards leads - a set that is (mostly) outclassed by Deo-D. Because of this, many found Deo-S underwhelming and voted not to ban. A few weeks later, its deadly LO Revenge Killer set surfaced in OU, being able to revenge kill nearly every relevant offensive threat. A single Pokemon should not have the means to do that so effectively. With the incredible offensive pressure this set generates, it forces switches easily and sets up Stealth Rock with ease, being able to dodge the majority of Taunts in the metagame.

It can run so many other sets too, but I can't be assed to list them all. Bottom line is, the incredible diversity of this mon means there are no hard stops to all of its sets - and one wrong switch can punish your Pokemon or your team tremendously, whether it be in the form of screens or a nuke in Psycho Boost.

Ban Deoxys-Speed

While the baton pass arguments are a little outdated, the rest of the arguments aren't. And Defog/Rapid Spin aren't great answers to Deo tnx to the combination of Defiant, Ghost Types, Taunt, and offensive pressure.

 

[Ghoul King]

Does Transform get eaten by Electrify Motor Drive? If it does then Chansey eats Zebstrika alive. Not to mention that, if you see a Zeb on their team you know what set it is, since it basically only has 1 viable set (I don't think Bolt Strike is viable at all - still has no coverage)

I think you mean if it doesn't. Regardless, yes Transform gets eaten by Electrify+Electrical immunity Ability.

Alas, no Pokemon gets both Lightning Rod and Taunt, which would be amazing in conjunction with Electrify for hurting Stall. Get up hazards, and now their constant switching is slowly killing them while they're incapable of doing much of anything.

Thundurus-Therian (Volt Absorb), Emolga, and Electivire (Motor Drive) are options for Electric immunity+Taunt, but they're not all that great of options. Thundurus-Therian is at least competent, generally, but Volt Absorb just isn't as cool as Lightning Rod with Electrify.

On a completely unrelated note, I friggin' love Braviary. And Mega Charizard Y. They're both amazing fun.

 

[thesecondbest]

Deo-D wasn't broken at all in OU. Let me start off by saying that. But the OU council/voters want to maintain Balance as the best playstyle in the tier, so that is why they banned it. It's that simple. The voters were tired of HO everywhere so they banned it. And in STABmons, where every flying type has defog and every normal type has rapid spin (or at least access to it), it won't be broken at all. In Monotype, the Deos are legal, and Psychic is a great HO type, and they see pitiful usage and nobody has asked for a ban. So no reason at all to keep it banned. Cosmic Power is something it already had, so don't claim that that will be a broken set.
As for Deo-S, with FakeSpeed everywhere, it won't be as good, but it was busted in OU for sure. So it might be broken.

I think both of these guys deserve suspect tests. I think Deo-D is not banworthy at all, and Deo-S might be broken. What do you guys think?
(and don't say "OU banned it why should we unban it" because we don't have to treat OU's decision as correct. I don't think the decision was correct personally)

 

[EV]

Let's start the viability ranking soon. Don't rank in this thread, but keep stuff in mind for the preliminary S/A ranks. Discuss it on Showdown.

Feel free to post sets and cores that are working well though. I've been using Banded Kyurem-B but unlike Funbot's I don't run Outrage (either Dragon Claw or Earth Power.) The overall lack of Fairies does make Outrage appealing, however, so if you can clear away some Steel-types first it might prove to be a viable option.

Hoopa-U makes a great Kyurem partner because together they just punch holes in everything. Hoopa struggles versus offense because it's easily revenged by physical attacks. Agility remedies this somewhat but you still die to FakeSpeed. Right now I'm favoring Psycho Boost/Knock Off/Drain Punch/Gunk Shot w/ White Herb. Sometimes I run Agility over Psycho Boost w/ Lum.

Weavile is still shining for me. It threatens so many teams with Dark/Ice/Fighting coverage it's ridiculous. I added Sucker Punch so I'm not bonked by other priority or something with a Speed boost. LO ensures a few crucial KOs but I've tried Expert Belt and it has merit as well.

A lead set I worked on shortly before the changes took affect was Lum Azumarill to sponge a Dark Void from Sableye or Darkrai and KO back with Play Rough. It still works great vs. Sableye and I've found a lot of teams don't have a dedicated Water resist that also cares to take Play Rough (or Focus Punch/Knock Off.) I throw on Extreme Speed to give it revenge utility and 248 HP EVs makes it surprisingly bulky.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Deo-D wasn't broken at all in OU. Let me start off by saying that. But the OU council/voters want to maintain Balance as the best playstyle in the tier, so that is why they banned it. It's that simple. The voters were tired of HO everywhere so they banned it. And in STABmons, where every flying type has defog and every normal type has rapid spin (or at least access to it), it won't be broken at all. In Monotype, the Deos are legal, and Psychic is a great HO type, and they see pitiful usage and nobody has asked for a ban. So no reason at all to keep it banned. Cosmic Power is something it already had, so don't claim that that will be a broken set.
As for Deo-S, with FakeSpeed everywhere, it won't be as good, but it was busted in OU for sure. So it might be broken.

I think both of these guys deserve suspect tests. I think Deo-D is not banworthy at all, and Deo-S might be broken. What do you guys think?
(and don't say "OU banned it why should we unban it" because we don't have to treat OU's decision as correct. I don't think the decision was correct personally)

Sigh...

So the Ou council conspired to make balance the best playstyle in the tier, so they banned the Deos. Okkaaayyy. And i'm sure the Martians have inflitrated the government, keep your tinfoil hats on people they can read your minds!!!!

Seriously, i don't suppose you have proof have proof to back up anything you said? And monotype is an entirely different metagame, what is balanced/broken in one meta has nothing to do with a different metagame. And monotype allows Ice type to use Kyurem-W, a broken pokemon, for type balancing purposes.

Also you mentioned voters were "tired of Ho everywhere." Its not healthy for a metagame if a particular strategy is vastly superior to another. From what i've seen, Deo-S/D were banned cause they were too good at enabling HO. Its also worth pointing out voters generally thought Deo-D was more broken then S.

So if you really want to prove Deoxys isn't broken, try contesting some of the actual points that have been brought up by The Reptile and the post i quoted. Don't make up some conspiracy story that you can't possibly prove.

 

[canno]

Just because every Normal-type can run Rapid Spin and every Flying-type can run Defog doesn't mean that Deo-D/S isn't broken. It still doesn't fix the fact that offensive pressure is and probably will be the premier way to prevent hazard removal. They also still have to deal with Ghosties and Defiant users such as Bisharp (and now Braviary) - Bisharp being infamous for Defiant and being the "sharp" part of the "Deosharp" team archetype. Both of these Pokemon even fair pretty well in the meta - Bisharp has a resistance to FakeSpeed as a sweeper, gets access to a bunch of cool tools, and is one of the few physical attackers that doesn't give a shit about King's Shield, and Braviary being a very good FakeSpeeder (sadly loses out on Baton Pass on that set, but its still a good FakeSpeeder).

Why does Monotype's banlist have to do with anything? If anything, Monotype matters even less than OU's banlist because at least OU acts as the baseline for our banlist. Also, while it does get Cosmic Power, it gets Stored Power - something it didn't have and combos into Cosmic Power very well. On the topic of moves that the Deos can use, Psystrike is an option on the LO Set for Deo-S as a reliable STAB that just happens to smack Chansey on the weaker side.

I'm not going to comment on the OU Council part of the post because there really isn't an argument there. We really shouldn't talk about unbanning Ubers right now anyways - NeoSTABmons isn't even a month old. Let the metagame settle first. For now, we should pursue the topic Eevee General (tfw edit doesn't actually tag) is talking about. I'll post more on it in just a second.

 

[thesecondbest]

Sigh...

So the Ou council conspired to make balance the best playstyle in the tier, so they banned the Deos. Okkaaayyy. And i'm sure the Martians have inflitrated the government, keep your tinfoil hats on people they can read your minds!!!!

Seriously, i don't suppose you have proof have proof to back up anything you said? And monotype is an entirely different metagame, what is balanced/broken in one meta has nothing to do with a different metagame. And monotype allows Ice type to use Kyurem-W, a broken pokemon, for type balancing purposes.

Also you mentioned voters were "tired of Ho everywhere." Its not healthy for a metagame if a particular strategy is vastly superior to another. From what i've seen, Deo-S/D were banned cause they were too good at enabling HO. Its also worth pointing out voters generally thought Deo-D was more broken then S.

So if you really want to prove Deoxys isn't broken, try contesting some of the actual points that have been brought up by The Reptile and the post i quoted. Don't make up some conspiracy story that you can't possibly prove.

Umm yes every ban in the ou tier has been of an offensive mon- ou doesn't ban walls so over time threats to balance get banned. Go to the Policy Review and read "The current state of ORAS OU" and you'll see that they want to get Manaphy, STag, and Hoopa banned because they... you guessed it... beat stall/balance teams. I'm not making it up when I say this. Here are some posts from the Deo suspect thread:
"These pokes are defining to the current meta and kicking them out will change alot, hopefully it is for the better. I think the only thing that will happen though is replacements will accomplish the same job, but they will be more predictable. Like the mixed LO thundy set will replace LO deo-s, shuckle replaces deo-d, klefki replaces screens deo....things like that. It should be healthy for the meta, im looking forward to it."
See? It defines the meta and pushes it to be HO. Nowhere does he say that they are actually broken, just that banning them will bring change.
The post you quoted said similar things - they are effective at getting up hazards. Is that unhealthy for the meta? I would say no. Especially when great mons like Lando-T have access to defog, it's easy to put hazard control on every team.
Kyu-W is banned in Monotype. So my "conspiracy theory" is actually a flaw with the OU banning system- I'm not making it up. But anyways this discussion is getting cancerous so we should probably end it.

 

[Lcass4919]

Okay, to end this entire debate, im going to step in, first and furthermost, deoxys S and D are both still banworthy, deoxys D gains nothing relivant to its MAIN set, BUT it doesnt gain anything that HINDERS its main set. deoxys D is capable of getting at LEAST 2 hazards every match, and unlike deo S theres literally no way of stopping it if it runs the correct item. deoxys D is the best hazards setter by far, and its nearly impossible to stop with taunt on its disposal. it just has too much going for it, and in stabmons, i dont really see how that changes. sure, you get more defog users...but defog wasn't a problem at all for deoxys+bisharp teams before...i dont see what changes that now, especially now that bisharp gets +3 rather then +2 versus the premier defogger. i understand joshz's veiw, but thats an incorrect veiw on how you should consider unbanning things.

deoxys speed however, is another story. do we not know WHAT got it banned? hazard stacking? no. shockingly it wasn't the main reason. it was its revenge killer set. yes, a revenge killer set that got it banned. so tell me, has the meta proceeded past the 180 speed tier? no? i rest my case. its still broken. hence why it got banned from stabmons in the first place.

also for thesecondbest, take note that deoxys speed, deoxys neutral, AND shaymin, were all banned due to completely decimating offense, while stall DID have difficulty, they managed to beat the trio. your "conspiracy theory" is not fact, never assume theories are fact, especially not your OWN. also deoxys always carries taunt, so i don't see how you expect to defog. and lastly, its not hazards that are unhealthy, its how PERFECT deoxys D is at setting them, which was UNHEALTHY for the metagame, or at least, a majority of the high ranking community thought so. don't get the two confused. i bolded unhealthy, because i feel like you don't understand the concept of the ban process. if something is unhealthy, it too, gets suspected. Shocking isn't it?

im no longer in the council, so my opinions matter a bit less then before, but seriously, lets stop using our "personal theories" as fact, and using misleading information in our arguments.

 

[Kit Kasai]

The real point here is that the council just decided to change its tiering policy. That is, STABmons will use the OU banlist as a baseline and will ban things as necessary, but will no longer drop ubers. Whether or not certain ubers are "less broken" in STABmons is obviously highly debatable (as evidenced by this thread). I think the reason that it was decided to be this way was because 1. there is no real way to do a full on suspect test considering how small oms are compared to standard tiers, and we don't have access to a suspect ladder 2. so we don't waste time discussing what is mostly arbitrary and theorymon (because of point 1) and 3. so we don't "accidentally" drop something (because of 1 and 2) that proves to be a problem later on like Greninja and Darkrai.

 

[Snaquaza]

The real point here is that the council just decided to change its tiering policy. That is, STABmons will use the OU banlist as a baseline and will ban things as necessary, but will no longer drop ubers. Whether or not certain ubers are "less broken" in STABmons is obviously highly debatable (as evidenced by this thread). I think the reason that it was decided to be this way was because 1. there is no real way to do a full on suspect test considering how small oms are compared to standard tiers, and we don't have access to a suspect ladder 2. so we don't waste time discussing what is mostly arbitrary and theorymon (because of point 1) and 3. so we don't "accidentally" drop something (because of 1 and 2) that proves to be a problem later on like Greninja and Darkrai.

In addition to what Kit said, a fourth reason is that drops can be very confusing for new players. (According to Eevee, some players didn't even know Darkrai was legal at the end of old STABmons) This is bad for an OM, since they're quite small and don't want to deter newcomers from coming to the tier, which is easier if they can follow a standard tier they know. Although bans have to be made to keep balance, dropping 'mons in addition to banning could make things two times as complicated.

 

[Klang]

For clarification, right now Ubers drops are out of the question according to EG, but in the future when the metagame has stabilized some Ubers may be revisited.

 

[ellipse]

So does anyone think that this new meta will be drastically different than the old one? The only real change that I notice is that M-Scizor is no longer far and ahead the premier Mega, so there might be some more variation in opening the mega slot (especially considering Mega Blastoise can essentially 2HKO the tier), as well as Kyub's return to break bulkier teams down, especially if it can pair with Hoopa.
I still see Thundurus, Tyranitar, Landorus, and FakeSpeed, being extremely powerful forces in the tier. Also Serperior probably becoming the best sweeper that we have, followed by Gyarados or maybe even Excadrill or Bisharp surprising us as powerful forces.

 

[The Immortal]

The real point here is that the council just decided to change its tiering policy. That is, STABmons will use the OU banlist as a baseline and will ban things as necessary, but will no longer drop ubers. Whether or not certain ubers are "less broken" in STABmons is obviously highly debatable (as evidenced by this thread). I think the reason that it was decided to be this way was because 1. there is no real way to do a full on suspect test considering how small oms are compared to standard tiers, and we don't have access to a suspect ladder 2. so we don't waste time discussing what is mostly arbitrary and theorymon (because of point 1) and 3. so we don't "accidentally" drop something (because of 1 and 2) that proves to be a problem later on like Greninja and Darkrai.

Requiring new alts equally fulfills this. Just thought I'd mention that.

And I also thought I'd share this: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-261778997 Witness the power of Garchomp!

 

[thesecondbest]

Okay, to end this entire debate, im going to step in, first and furthermost, deoxys S and D are both still banworthy, deoxys D gains nothing relivant to its MAIN set, BUT it doesnt gain anything that HINDERS its main set. deoxys D is capable of getting at LEAST 2 hazards every match, and unlike deo S theres literally no way of stopping it if it runs the correct item. deoxys D is the best hazards setter by far, and its nearly impossible to stop with taunt on its disposal. it just has too much going for it, and in stabmons, i dont really see how that changes. sure, you get more defog users...but defog wasn't a problem at all for deoxys+bisharp teams before...i dont see what changes that now, especially now that bisharp gets +3 rather then +2 versus the premier defogger. i understand joshz's veiw, but thats an incorrect veiw on how you should consider unbanning things.

deoxys speed however, is another story. do we not know WHAT got it banned? hazard stacking? no. shockingly it wasn't the main reason. it was its revenge killer set. yes, a revenge killer set that got it banned. so tell me, has the meta proceeded past the 180 speed tier? no? i rest my case. its still broken. hence why it got banned from stabmons in the first place.

also for thesecondbest, take note that deoxys speed, deoxys neutral, AND shaymin, were all banned due to completely decimating offense, while stall DID have difficulty, they managed to beat the trio. your "conspiracy theory" is not fact, never assume theories are fact, especially not your OWN. also deoxys always carries taunt, so i don't see how you expect to defog. and lastly, its not hazards that are unhealthy, its how PERFECT deoxys D is at setting them, which was UNHEALTHY for the metagame, or at least, a majority of the high ranking community thought so. don't get the two confused. i bolded unhealthy, because i feel like you don't understand the concept of the ban process. if something is unhealthy, it too, gets suspected. Shocking isn't it?

im no longer in the council, so my opinions matter a bit less then before, but seriously, lets stop using our "personal theories" as fact, and using misleading information in our arguments.

They were B+ and B in the old one so you can't tell me thy were broken. But yeah we aren't allowed to talk about this. (and also Bisharp will never switch into lando-t and it onl gets +3 if lando switches in on it- neither of which will happen.) Neither one ever got banned from stabmons and I personally don't see the difference between unbanning a banned mon and banning an unbanned one, but for TEG's sake I'll drop it.

 

[Ghoul King]

Two points that have become obvious while laddering.

BellySpeed

Exclusively possible on Linoone, Snorlax, Ursaring, and Lickilicky. Note, in particular, that Scrappy BellySpeed is no longer possible. Lickilicky's access to Power Whip and Linoone and Snorlax's access to Seed Bomb are worth commentary, as they are all capable of pushing past Quagsire as a result. Ursaring can push through via use of Guts-backed Facade (Extreme Speed is too weak if they still have Leftovers), but otherwise is hard-walled by Unaware Quagsire, leaving it overall worst off.

Scrappy Speed

The best boosting you can combine Extreme Speed with is +1 at a time, from Work Up or Howl. (Pangoro is the only Scrappy Pokemon with Swords Dance or even Bulk Up, and is not a Normal type) This makes Scrappy Speed considerably less powerful, and in particular makes it difficult to boost and power through Sableye.

Huzzah, all around!

 

[canno]

Mega-Scizor is still quote good even without shift grind, I've found. I run a set with shift gear, bullet punch, roost and knock off and after a few boosts it can OHKO a lot still. It loses gear grind, but having priority is actually useful at times.
Banded scizor is also a good threat. Gear grind banded hits extremely hard and uturn gives momentum as well as hitting hars. aerial ace/superpower/knock off are great coverage options depending on what your team needs, but gear grind will OHKO a shit ton banded anyways.

Why not just use Swords Dance if you're going to use Bullet Punch as your main STAB? You could even slip in Gear Grind on a Swords Dance set for a more stall-breaky Mega Scizor. Actually this got me thinking

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Gear Grind
- Knock Off
- Roost / Superpower / Pin Missle

Agility + Gear Grind basically achieves the same thing that Shift Gear + Gear Grind used to back in the old STABies days, only less powerful due to no +1 Attack. The alternative is Shift Gear / Iron Head / Knock Off / Roost, Superpower, or Bug Bite. Mega Scizor still looks potent though. Banded Scizor is also really good - I've used it with Gear Grind and it simply destroys things. The main issue with Agility Scizor is, unlike Shift Gear, it loses to Lando-T

 

[Akiii]

So how does Flying Press work? The dex says it's Fighting type so is it only available to Fighting types or to Flying types as well?

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

At a guess I'd say just Fighting types, as that's what it's listed as.

 

[Akumeoy]

Just to start discussion back up here: let's talk about Sticky Web. Normally a low-viability hazard in part due to its relegation to subpar Pokemon like Shuckle and based spider Galvantula, in STABmons you can slap it on things like Forretress (which gets Sturdy and a variety of utility options), Scolipede (which can stack it with spikes and pass speed boosts as another form of speed control), or any number of offensively inclined Bug-types like Scizor, Heracross, and Volcarona (which can provide offensive pressure against defoggers). I have been laddering with Sticky Web and found that being able to safely use a number of powerful wallbreakers as outright sweepers is a viable strategy, with the proper support; namely:

• Stealth Rock and Boltbeam coverage for Flying-types that are unaffected by Sticky Web, as well as most levitators.
• Defiant / Competitive to discourage (or profit off of) opposing Defog and Magic Bounce, not to mention the popular Intimidate and Parting Shot.
• Reliable answers to Bisharp, Serperior, and common priority users, which become very powerful under, become very fast under, and don't care so much about Sticky Web, respectively.
• Backup speed control in the form of priority and, ideally, Tailwind or Paralysis support.

What are your experiences with Sticky Web teams? What do you use in these support roles? Are there other roles you find necessary? What do you use for your main sweepers / wallbreakers?

Alternative discussion topic: Kyurem-Black is S-rank for good reason: it has the movepool and offensive stats to make it exceptionally difficult to switch into, much less wall, and is very bulky with an acceptable defensive typing to boot. What do you use to answer it?

 

[EV]

Speaking of Kyurem-B, it's probably the best Sticky Web abuser. It's mediocre Speed is now comparable to holding a Scarf and it has Ice STAB for those Flyers that are unaffected by the hazard. Hoopa-U is another good abuser, though its poor Defense leaves it vulnerable to priority. However, a faster Sucker Punch can mediate that.

In terms of Kyurem-B checks, I've found Jirachi, Klefki, Heatran, Scizor, and Ferrothorn as viable options. Sp. Def Jirachi tanks an Earth Power and threatens with T-wave and/or Iron Head. Klefki can also threaten with paralysis and it has Foul Play or either Fairy or Steel STAB to chip away its HP. More gimmicky options include Charm, assuming it's a physical Kyurem. Heatran won't like Earth Power, so an Air Balloon can reduce the risk of taking one at switch-in. It lacks HP recovery, however, so it's easier to wear down throughout the match. Scizor only fears HP Fire, though non defensive builds take a fair amount of damage from Fusion Bolt and even Earth Power, so carry Roost. It threatens back with Gear Grind or it sets up. Finally Ferrothorn takes all Kyurem's common attacks well bar HP Fire and has a plethora of options: Gyro Ball, Spore, Leech Seed, Thunder Wave, or it can stack hazards and heal with Synthesis.

Noticing a trend? Steel. As such Magnezone is a great Kyurem partner and handles most of those checks well, though it struggles with Heatran as generally Magnezone carries HP Fire, which frees up a slot for Kyurem-B to not worry about carrying it itself.

 

[skies]

What do you guys think of offensive teams in the current metagame?

Here's just a random offensive team I thought of when I though of "offensive". I didn't put much though into it, as you can tell. I feel that offensive teams are thriving in the current metagame due to the Pokemon above being so incredibly prevalent. It's so easy to lay Spikes with Klefki, then just break down the opponent and eventually just win. Defensive teams have always been sort of subpar in STABmons, but I just feel like they're at an all time low. Offensive times are shining, with defensive just kind of slowing down. However, I have also noticed more and more balanced teams. This allows much more room for stuff like Porygon2, Tornadus-T, Rotom-H, etc, to fit more and more counters to the above. I feel that the above Pokemon are the pinnacles of offense, also with stuff like Landorus-T, Kyurem-B, Azumarill, and Ursaring, fit into this category, but I did not include them primarily. Hoopa-Unbound being introduced also influenced the metagame by bringing another powerful Pokemon to offense, and another Pokemon for defensive teams to try and stop. Speaking of Hoopa-Unbound, it's just ferocious. It's able to truly shine in the current metagame, and I'm glad that it was introduced! So what do you guys think? Is offense rising? Staying the same? What defensive answers have you guys been using?