LC Suspect - Beez in the Trap - Result: Both Remain LC

[Bughouse]

Since it seems people are confused, this is not a test of "trapping." It's a test of the two viable trappers, and tbh should have just been reduced to a Diglett test alone. There is no point to testing the other.

Goth is not even remotely broken because it is muuuuuch more limited in what it can actually take out given its need to use Scarf and so doesn't OHKO tons of things it wishes it could OHKO. Also it can then be trapped in return easily by any Pursuit user.

Diglett is the only real question here, as it has a much wider range of targets it can realistically KO, as well as its ability to sometiems threaten to trap opponents throughout the game, not just once. Also I guess Memento should be taken into account as I don't think anyone particularly enjoys facing ZigDig-type teams.

 

[dcae]

ok so looking at the suspects theres two p clear sides diglett's ban nd the nonban. goth is a joke so i wont address it because its so weak and slow without scarf it isnt even near broken.

at first before playing this meta and i heard diglett was being considered as potential broken material, i laughed. However after playing a bit against good diglett users i can def see where the argument is coming from.

two points to take into account before discussing further:

I played LC early in XY, when diglett was pretty much never used, and all of the same Pokemon were good, and all of the lesser used ones were still uncommon

early xy lc had krow missy even gligar all three mons being surprisingly bulky, 19 spe, and immune to diglett. the fact that those three were removed allows diglett to have a much much much better time in the meta nowadays. Consider that the top two mons in lc, pawn and foo, are both trappable by diglett, and, considering its set, dead.

If we go further down the line we can see that diglett can trap many of the top 10 mons quite easily, even if it is unable to kill from full health. this presents, as blarajan mentioned, a constant threat on the opponent of the diglett because if their trappable mons are weakened its gg and ur fucked.

the second point to take into account is

You don't play Diglett in a vacuum, you play it on a team. Pokemon naturally take damage, and you play Diglett in a way that capitalizes on that.

this is well said. Diglett is only good in the hands of a good player. Most players who use it aren't good players but that isnt something that should be used to judge and discuss. diglett used by a skillful player will be potentially the most devastating mon in lc despite its negatives.

now onto my personal opinion:

ive noticed diglett can be played well or badly, but it is most often played badly, thus rendering me more unprepared for a wellplayed one. diglett isnt as large a threat when one is using hyper offense or something similarly heavily offensively inclined, but against bulky offense and balanced teams especially is most deadly, simply by removing the counter to the win condition, and since bulky offense/balance generally dont carry too many checks and counters that can be gg fucked from there. stall(v bulky offense cuz this is lc so lolstall) can deal with diglett unless it is a wellplayed one, but digletts threat rate shines because lc is such a bulky offense/balanced metagame.

im still not 100% leaning either way but i want this to be taken into account cuz we can post dumbfuck calcs for shit like foo and others from full hp to show diglett is weak, but that doesnt represent how large a threat it is in the current metagame.

overall: gothita is garb, diglett is a potential ban that i will elaborate on if i remember to.

 

[Dundies]

I'm just going to go ahead and post my thoughts here before I do my suspect laddering.

First off, as most people have been pointing out, Gothita isn't broken whatsoever, and I honestly don't think it should be banned at all. Unlike Diglett, Gothita is limited to one set that can trap, and it's a Choice Scarf set that's mediocre at best. It relatively weak compared to Diglett with Life Orb, and most mons can take a hit and OHKO in return. After Gothita has trapped something, it's easily Pursuit trapped or even trapped by Diglett and KOed by Sucker Punch.

Diglett on the other hand is much more threatening, as it isn't limited to a Choice item to successfully trap certain Pokemon and KO its targets. It has access to strong priority in Sucker Punch which allows it to beat even scarfers, as well as Memento, that allows it to pair with a Pokemon that needs support to set up for an almost effortless sweep. It honestly limits teambuilding and forces constant mind games throughout battles, since so many checks to top-tier threats such as Fletchling and Larvesta are so easily taken on by Diglett, as both of these Pokemon get U-turn so there isn't even much prediction involved whatsoever. On the other hand, smart play with Diglett can easily win games, as simple doubles into Diglett allow for basically free kills.

I'm honestly curious to see how this suspect turns out, as trappers have always made a huge impact for the meta.

 

[atomicllamas]

early xy lc had krow missy even gligar all three mons being surprisingly bulky, 19 spe, and immune to diglett. the fact that those three were removed allows diglett to have a much much much better time in the meta nowadays. Consider that the top two mons in lc, pawn and foo, are both trappable by diglett, and, considering its set, dead.

If we go further down the line we can see that diglett can trap many of the top 10 mons quite easily, even if it is unable to kill from full health. this presents, as blarajan mentioned, a constant threat on the opponent of the diglett because if their trappable mons are weakened its gg and ur fucked.

You kinda missed what I was actually trying to say, my point was that its not Diglett that is making Skrelp or insert half of Rajan's list "less good" than the top threats, even if you banned Diglett they still won't be the top tier Pokemon. Obviously early XY had different Pokemon, and the metas were different, but since like half the shitposts on the first page were "omg skrelp meta xD" or "croagunk !_!" I just wanted to point out those mons, while they will be better they aren't gonna suddenly be top mons. I guess I was just trying to get across that I feel the metagame influence of Diglett is being pretty overstated (though I probably did so poorly). Also, Diglett "can" trap Pawniard if the right set and the right conditions (ie has sub and predicts correctly or intact sash), and it "can" trap Mienfoo if its at 55% or below, or below 80% and no evio, but that's not always or even usually be the case, unless your opp plays you into that position (in which case maybe they deserve the kill, fuck regen).

 

[Max Carvalho]

#bantahuteam
Is there any threat that Diglett alone makes really that less viable? We see so many things weak to it at A rank. Yeah, I know Dig IS a heavy teambuilder restrictior, but people still run things that are weak to it and effectively, so, is dig that restricting? Will post more later, on phone
#bantahuteam

 

[dcae]

You kinda missed what I was actually trying to say, my point was that its not Diglett that is making Skrelp or insert half of Rajan's list "less good" than the top threats, even if you banned Diglett they still won't be the top tier Pokemon. Obviously early XY had different Pokemon, and the metas were different, but since like half the shitposts on the first page were "omg skrelp meta xD" or "croagunk !_!" I just wanted to point out those mons, while they will be better they aren't gonna suddenly be top mons. I guess I was just trying to get across that I feel the metagame influence of Diglett is being pretty overstated (though I probably did so poorly). Also, Diglett "can" trap Pawniard if the right set and the right conditions (ie has sub and predicts correctly or intact sash), and it "can" trap Mienfoo if its at 55% or below, or below 80% and no evio, but that's not always or even usually be the case, unless your opp plays you into that position (in which case maybe they deserve the kill, fuck regen).

ye i think u got ur point across kinda poorly. im still leaning no ban atm mostly bc i feel diglett isnt a mon u can slap on and enjoy - u gotta be skilled to use it to broke level, but at that point its skill differentiating shit, which is ok cuz skill > random hax nd good mons.

nd ye trash mons will stay trash mons, just slightly less trash

free missy

 

[Ray Jay]

Trapping is a core game mechanic. Now, it's slightly tricky to analyze holistically because it only comes to prominence when those who have access to trapping stand a chance against the current metagame.

This kind of trapping actually excites me when its in the metagame as it is not a consistent strategy, in other words trappers are not really effective 100% of the time so the best place to bust it out is in a big tourney match or something akin to that, which dcae alluded to earlier when talking about how most of the time it is not used effectively. Gambits are an important part of a competitive game, as it allows skillfull players to keep surprises up their sleeve that they may have trained on to bust out in times of import; the competitive sports equivalent might be something like pulling your goalie in hockey which is fundamentally a different strategy but one that you wouldn't use 100% of the time for obvious reasons.

 

[Celestavian]

Gothita is what trapping looks like when it's "balanced". It can take out some frail or weakened stuff pretty well, with some notables being BJ Archen and Fletchling after SR, but it does so at a big cost in the form of being locked into a move which your opponent can then take advantage of themselves. Basically, you need to actually choose what you are trapping carefully and not bring it in willy-nilly on anything below 40% HP or weak to its STAB Psychic, or you're going to get counter-swept. Basically, a trade-off for both sides that, while slightly in the favor of the Gothita user, does have defined strengths and weaknesses. I'm pretty sure it's only suspected because Heysup threw a fit about suspecting Diglett and not Gothita.

Diglett does not have to be so choosy as to what it traps because it can switch moves and run safer options, such as Memento to prevent set-up users from taking advantage of it or Focus Sash to prevent revenge killers from stopping it. Unlike Gothita, the three main Pursuit users (Stunky, Houndour, and occasionally Pawniard) are all weak to EQ, and unless they are packing a Choice Scarf, they're all slower too, creating Sucker Punch vs. Pursuit mindgames that are made even more complicated by the possibility of Substitute on Diglett. Since Pursuit isn't a 100% reliable way to deal with it, Diglett is free most of the time to switch out of bad match-ups and is far harder to take advantage of after it takes out its mark. Diglett's priority, higher power from a possible LO as well as the higher BP of Earthquake and better neutral coverage it provides gives Diglett a wider range of targets to choose from than Gothita. Team support let's Diglett take out bulkier targets by weakening them and possibly removing Eviolites with Knock Off. the only real problem is getting Diglett into combat without getting it OHKOed. Switching in after something is KOed on your team is an obvious way to do it, but of course, requires you to lose a Pokemon. Since this isn't always an entirely bad thing, such as the case with sacrificing low HP Pokemon that have served their purpose, I won't cast it entirely as a negative way to get it into battle, but it usually is. There's also its Electric immunity, which makes any kind of Electric-type moves a liability, especially Volt Switch, until Diglett is KOed. Even though you may not plan on switching Diglett in, you better believe someone using Chinchou or Magnemite is going to think twice about using Volt Switch until Diglett is gone. There are also some other moves, such as Skrelp's Sludge Wave, that Diglett can switch in on even if it isn't immune, which once again, makes using Skrelp's Poison STAB a liability until Diglett is gone. The fear of Diglett switching in is enough to suppress the use of certain types of moves for fear of giving it a way into battle, somewhat negating that weakness. In general, Diglett has pretty much everything it needs, besides bulk, to be a huge threat to the prepared and unprepared alike.

Even with all of that, I believe I'm still on the fence, leaning towards banning it. I'm not entirely convinced that Diglett is enough of a problem to get rid of it, mainly because I'm still using Pokemon that are trapped by it. Skrelp, for example, is a fixture on most of my teams for its ability to clear the way for Timburr, and even with Diglett around I don't think there's a better Fairy check out there. I make teams with Pawniard, Chinchou, Houndour, Larvesta, Vulpix, and other prime Diglett targets and still win even against teams with the trapping mole on them. Really, the only true casualty I've seen from the rise of Diglett is Ponyta, whom I recall being super common a while ago, enough to make it A+ rank, and now I see it far more rarely. Nothing changed besides Diglett getting more common, and now it's out. Besides that though, I haven't seen Diglett creating a strain on teambuilding, but instead, making a strain on battling strategy. If I could be swayed on that part, I'm definitely voting ban, but I'm just not seeing the effect it supposedly has on teambuilding.

 

[Superpowerdude]

I will give my thoughts on Goth a bit later, but I don't think it should be banned and people are bringing up good points to support this

Diglett is very good, it's a absolute sniper and it synergizes offensively with two very threatening sweepers Fletchling and Zigzagoon, I have heard people say in the past that they want Fletchling and Zig banned and while that view point may not necessarily be shared by many people (me included) I believe the main reason people have trouble with them is because of the pairing with diglett. It's trapping abilities, speed and a great stab in earthquake which is a 100 bp no drawback is very good and ground is such a good offensive type in lc because it isn't resisted much flying is immune and sure grass resists its, buts some notable grass types have a second type that makes them neutral to it (foongus, ferro). So yeah it's got some scary qualities in its on right but it is even more deadly when you consider that it turns two of the most threatening mons zig and fletch into killing machines. Trapping Pokemon that resist their stab and offering memento for an easier set up of course it supports many sweepers but I think fletch and zig are the most notable

Now as for dig restricting team building...the main Pokemon it has given a hard time is ponyta I believe but its not necassarily diglett itself that teams have pressure on to team build around but it's combinations that are common with diglett like being paired with fletchling. I would argue that diglett forces people to run multiple fletch checks for one can be worn down and trapped to easily. This just doesn't seem like a team building restriction since running multiple fletch checks on a team is done often accidentally because of how good a lot of them are in the metagame (Chinchou, Archen, Pawnaird, etc) but I feel like only having one fletch check not named Archen kind of makes your team susceptible to Diglett in the sense that it puts a lot of pressure on your only reliable poke stopping a well played out fletch sweep

 

[rhydonphilip]

Edit: after playing to 1000 coil, reading up on some other peopl's arguments i edited the post.

I don't see mutch reason on banning the pokes outside of having:
-easiest revenge kill, Kill if grabing momentum.
-slighty unhealthy against poison types, mainly skrelp, trubbish, stunky and croagunk but this would also means berry juice pokes like magnemite( or more in general sturdy juicers) would be come better.

And both bad parts come infact from diglett.


The main problems it has are in teambuilding and risky offencive play styles. I have been playing LC from the start of X and Y and have seen how the poke(diglett/It's play style) can tear apart some teams easly also pressuring stall teams into a harder zone. However, there are some pokes that can reliably deal with it and even counter act against trapping very well, especialy pokes like pumpkaboo shine with this in mind. But also pokes like Porygon can reguardless of set REVENGE DIGLETT. Sadly this is a limited list.

I might actualy start the first argument here, Diglett , LO diglett is the main treath people care about and that is definatly true sadly it needs rock support(exept if you want to miss out on sub and have a hard time against pawn/sucker users) and even then it still misses out on some important KO's. It has plenty of checks even ignoring scarf users like chinchou.Sadly this is LIMITED.
It's a revenge killer, nothing else. I have already posted an argument about why diglett shouldn't be listed A+ and the fact people care this mutch about the poke just make me think this is like fletchling all over again,
It is however Unhealthy limiting teambuilding.

Edit: after i played some more my self against other people with rater diglett weak teams i can see peoples argument of it being ''a bit too easy'' to work with that.
I won't say ban/not ban on this one cause i will load my self untill the right coil to say that.

Gothita is another subject, currently pursuit trappers are rare, or atleast the move it self is rare. Pawniard doesn't need it(and it checks gothita reguardless), stunky in general is rare, houndoor isn't too common but is one that could still carry it. And those were the main once.
As for what the poke can do: not mutch imo, it can check a hugh amout of diglett's weaknesses but slower bulkier pokes like spritzee,ferroseed,porygon still stand strong even if you trick the item. It would stop them from doing there bulky job but still form a slight treath.
Just 1 more thing, WHY IS THIS SUSPECTED, i can see the combo with diglett but outside of that it fails at about anything!(this again brings diglett into subject)
It's negatives in points:
-Misses out on allot of important kills even more then diglett, like foongus/skrelp/Max Hp evio mienfoo.
-Pursuit trap/ghost types are the bane of it's existance.
-Weak to priority just like diglett.
-Fails thanks to it's low sp attack power at killing important treaths and tricking the scarf doesn't always remove the treath.
-Is forced to run scarf, even tho it can trick it, it lacks in special force thanks to it and not running scarf makes you sit with the most akward speed tier of 15 what is even below pawniard's 16.

No where near ban worthy if anything this thing properly makes a good part of play for the LC meta. No-Ban


This brings up the main question i would ask: what exactly is it that is unhealthy/punnishing?
I could already list fletch+diglett cause those apparently killer everything combined. But i would start a different one: Gothita + diglett, the combo it self is more deadly then fletch + diglett even tho that is a very well known team demolishing combo. It's no douth some U-turn + 2 trappers + pawniard makes up the biggest part of the top ladder but there will always be better teams reguardless ,heck, see mienfoo's useage the beast is solid on almost every team but not broke in any way.

Maby i Was asking the wrong question, maby i shouldn't look defencively teambuilding but if you play agaisnt it!
In this case, the trapping teams actualy have an easier time against most current teams/play styles. Hyper offencive (could)/Bulky offencive/Trapping(it self) teams seem to be the most usefull answere against them.
Other play style that have a hard time:
-Ballenced, ballenced teams need to take hugh risks to stand stable against this play style, however it doesn't mean they couldn't work.
-Stall, in an all around meta game, stall even tho it's hated by allot of people is demolished by trapping if trapping is done right. Teambuilding stall teams in the current meta is hard, but also not impossible. However this limits allot of options.


What if trapping became banned?
That is rater an interesting question. All i can say however: RIP to skrelp, like actualy Skrelp can get a free kill agaist almost anything it's astronomical special attack can break trough most thigns.

If Gothita/Diglett become banned i will most definatly vote for skrelp to go A+. It's not that trapping is needed to keep skrelp from being OP, but it most definatly drag's it's viability down.

As for other already listed pokes:
-Trubbish would become more viable.(B/B+ viable imo)
-Stunky can rise higher again(B+).
-Tentacool........
-Croagunk will be a monster again. (A-/A)
-Abra: might sound odd, but knowing LO abra is the main thing that is powerfull and usefull knowing it now only has to worry about pursuit/sucker users.
-Chinchou/Ponyta/Magnemite will also be allot more free.
-Pawniard is even bigger then before, what is worry able, but no where suspect
-Trappinch... YES, this isn't a joke this thing won't be outclassed by Diglett anymore and will be able to deal with some treaths, sadly it's rediculess lack of speed makes it nearly un-useable for reveng killing(TR maby? reguardless it would rise but not become a viable enough replacement for diglett.).
-Magnemite will be mutch more used yes, more viable also but still A+ imo.

As play styles:
-Trapping as a play style depending on the ban will be nearly not existant.(exept if you want to run pursuit trapping + trappinch in that case go wild!
-Ballenced will be hugh, like even bigger then before HUGH.
-Stall will be more viable( i am a stall boy my self so i wouldn't mind it ;p)

Overall the post i made was to point out multiple clear points others could focus on.

 

[Arcade]

I'm mildly worried by this. even if i never found the trappers a problem they do let Poison and Fire Spam run free and this could be extremely worrying. I may be on the wall with this, but I am also shitting myself whilst being on the wall with this.

 

[Freeroamer]

It counts as a full vote.

Is this definitely confirmed? I asked McMeghan last night and he said it was still 0.5 like it used to be...

 

[atomicllamas]

Is this definitely confirmed? I asked McMeghan last night and he said it was still 0.5 like it used to be...

McMeghan is your source for how much this vote is worth because...? He prolly just didn't see LC changed their suspecting system -_-.

 

[Freeroamer]

He's the leader of the TC badge? I'm not bothered either way because I'm going to participate regardless was just wondering what the value of this test is. By the general direction of your post, I'm guessing it's 1, thx for clarifying.

 

[tcr]

Friendly reminder that, as in every suspect test, what the meta becomes after the Pokemon is gone is completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand! We are discussing present problems and how to fix those, not future issues that may or may not even appear.

As to my personal opinions on this suspect test, I personally feel that trapping is and always will be a dumb concept for Pokemon; to me Pokemon only has 2 core concepts to it, which can be broken down into an action and a reaction. Actions are those that you deliberately seek, such as Teddiursa using Close Combat on Buneary, or even a gain to maintain momentum by double switching (he switches Ferroseed into my Carvanha, I go into Magnet Pull Magnemite on the double and take control of the match). A reaction is one that is taken in response to something else. So, it would be the switch out to Ferroseed. That to me is the basis of battles. Depending on the types of actions and reactions that take place, momentum shifts from player to player. Diglett completely takes away the reaction part. There is absolutely nothing you can do to maintain momentum on your side. You can switch in Ponyta on Mienfoo all you want hoping for a burn, only for Ponyta to be completely devastated by LO Diglett. You can try to get Skrelp in on Mienfoo or Spritzee or Snubbull, but Diglett will be right there to shit on you. Trapping completely takes away any sort of "control" from the opposing player. From turn 1 they play to YOUR tune and battle to how you want to battle. They are often scared to even bring out Pokemon like Ponyta or Skrelp, simply from the fear of being a liability. To me that is just retarded, there is zero reason a Pokemon should limit teambuilding that much. Diglett, as a trapper, should theoretically halt all momentum that you have once you kill your target. That's what trappers do. A classic example is Gothita, who is forced to run a Choice Scarf in order to hit specific Pokemon, and thus severely kills momentum. Diglett does not do that. Diglett often times can just Memento on the next Pokemon to come in, without fear or reprisal. It has Subsititute to get around Pawniard. In fact the only Pokemon that it does not really want to face is Snivy. And even then what is Snivy going to do? You simply switch in your Fletchling, or your Vullaby, or your Pawniard, something to take a Leaf Storm, and force it right out.

In sum, trapping as a whole is stupid and dumb, but is balanced by the fact that momentum shifts to the other player after a trapper is used. Diglett completely throws that idea out of the window, with its ability to retain momentum even after you kill something. It severely limits teambuilding options, more so than Gothita does, as well.

 

[Shrug]

I'm going to make an argument; it is likely more complex than people might have anticipated. Here it is:

TWO-CONTENTION THESIS STATEMENT:
Suspect: Diglett is bad for the metagame while Suspect: Gothita is good for the metagame.

DEFINITION OF TERMS IN THESIS:
Vis a vis my thesis "good" means increasing the frequency the winner of little cup battles is the more skilled player in that battle as well as making less restrictive the options of a lc battler in teambuilding. "Bad" in thesis vide supra can be termed the opposite: it reduces the chances the better lc player in a given battle wins that battle as well as restricting teambuilding to a unusual degree; both traits previous can be termed inimical to a "better metagame".

CLARIFICATION OF COMMON MISCONCEPTION IMPEDIMENTAL TO COMPREHENSION OF THESIS:

Since it seems people are confused, this is not a test of "trapping." It's a test of the two viable trappers

Goth and Dig are not the same and shouldnt be treated as such.

It is absurd to list strengths / weakness of diglett (see also: goth) by scrolling through the viability rankings and listing mons it can / can when weakened / cant trap. Trappers are unique in they are suspects "of metagame"; they dont simply beat this lose to that but have a different role each battle. Im fully aware each mon doesnt do the same thing each battle, but trappers specifically are dependent on the flow of a game to see if they are effective -and no other mons have the same impact on flow.

DEFENSE OF PT. I OF THESIS:
To list basic characteristics: Diglett is very fast and moderately strong so it traps things with STAB earthquake and also Rock slide. it kills pokemon.

The area of Diglett i feel is underexamined is how many things make a good teammate for it - and how those teammates + Dig shape the metagame. Common examples cited: Mienfoo, Fletchling. But other mons such as Scarf Mag also love it. Consider a situation where i have scarf mag and diglett. If i get scarf mag on something it forces out (a lot of things) you're forced to go into your check - which is perhaps Mienfoo. Which i then vswitch on and trap with Dig. There's no counterplay. Argument follows: pack a surefire mag check. Say you have Chinchou... thats also trapped by Diglett. So, Scarfchou? or another counter? Your options are pinched off. This pinching off of checks and counters to mon x because of mon x + Dig happens a ton, and such a scenario isnt acknowledged by simple "Diglett cant trap Mienfoo" arguments. When you're teambuilding you need to defend against all number of threats with six mons. It's doable, but very very hard when you need to also not ceed momentum lest diglett get a free kill. Which is why tons of lc teams look similar.

Thing about Diglett is it is very difficult to exploit. After it kills something, you need to send something to fight a 20 speed mon with life orb EdgeQuake. which you can do, but with reasonable difficulty and minimal reversal-potential. To clarify: reversal potential is making any Diglett kill very bad for the Diglett user; an example is an Omantye reversing a Fletch kill into a shell smash sweep. The speed power and memento mean most mons really dont "exploit Diglett" so much as just force it out and U-turn, this foo or something. Snivy fucks it but again a Dig user can deal with Snivy easily. So the opportunity cost of a Diglett kill is not high. It kills they counter you counter and get flow back.

DEFENSE OF PT. II OF THESIS:
To list basic characteristics of Gothita: It is a pokemon that runs psychic / trick pick 2 of tbolt / eball/ hp fire. It always has a choice scarf in high level battles.

Gothita seems much the same as Diglett. It traps things important to the other team: fighting-types, Archen, Chou sometimes, etc. The major difference: the opportunity cost. Getting a kill with Gothita is Pearl Harbor: easy and effective, but you've exposed yourself to a major threat when retreating. And thus the Goth user must be selective when she opts to take that Goth kill, because KO'ing Foo with Psychic to face a Pawniard setup is very alarming. Lets say im playing pokemon versus tazz . He has Corph + Goth; i have foongus to check Corph (it is trapped by Goth) and Pawniard. I have to maneuver to keep Foongus alive, but i also can weaken his team knowing Goth > Foongus begets a pawn SD nullifying his sweep; he knows he cant get a goth kill until he's prepared to defend against Pawn putting pressure on him that means he cant set up Corphish; from there i can pressure him and push his corph sweep back and back into possible nonexistence. See the difference between Goth and Dig? A Dig kill means little harm to the killer, while a goth kill is laced with strategic implications. Of course goth does a good job of dismantling defensive teams, but so does Knock Off; there are ways to cope with both.

OVERALL SUMMATION:

Goth adds a layer of strategy to the game that Diglett assuredly does not. For that reason, Got is definitely not broken, while Diglett might be, im still undecided.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Diglett completely takes away any momentum a player would have? That's impossible, if it took away all the momentum and you could never retrieve it, Diglett would be a surefire way to win every time. I think we can agree that, usually, trapping abilities aren't that dumb due to its wielder not being good enough to not to be a liability the rest of the match after he's done its job. Diglett is quite different, it's a very good recipient that makes full use of its ability, and doesn't need to be a liability (although it may be) during the rest of the match, or even in the next turn it does it job to eliminate a specific threat. But most of you are analyzing this in a vacuum where only Foo, Ponyta and Diglett exists. What it costs to bring Diglett, what will it acomplish if it happen to revenge kill a threat, that must also be took into account. I asked in my post why aren't all these Pokemon weak to Diglett utter trash in the LC metagame, why people insist on using them? Ponyta surely has become less common these days, but big winner like Chinchou and Magnemite are here all day.
Diglett surely demands you to be able to check it, but it isn't difficult in all honesty. If your teams gets steamrolled by a Life Orb Diglett, anyone here can make a full list of what else it gets steamrolled to. I think it's a teambuilder restrictor in the form that you must avoid using things that are revenge killable by Diglett, but this usually isn't what we see, people still use Chinchou, Magnemite, Skrelp and Lord Helix. I think that happens because on paper, the benefits you get from running these Pokemon far outpace the risk of seeing a Diglett on the opposing team; and even then, I have yet to see any of these Pokemon become a liability with Diglett's presence.
I think the true problem might be that Diglett is not alone. It has its VoltTurn teammates on its aids, and that's why Diglett must be such a lock in battle playing. With support from VoltTurn, it's really that easy to bring it in as some are pointing out. Basically, using Diglett implies that you must be able to abuse its teammates to the best in order to bring it, and carefuly plan on what you are picking off and make sure you are able to do so with either LO or Sash. Question is: does any kill from Diglett will bring its player to a good advantage? Most of the battles I've seen Diglett would be lucky to bring out one threat and in all honesty, and even then the opposing team can still manage to fight back. But I'm still on fence because overall, I find trapping very dumb for battle playing, and it might bring a heavy advantage to its abuser during a game, but, as far as my experience goes, using Diglett requires some thought in what you are Revenge Killing with it, when are you bringing it, and what are you accomplishing with it. I think all of you've seen that Diglett may become a liability if it isn't used the right way, if a wrong play is made (like trying to Switch in on a Chinchou's Volt Switch only to get a Scald in the face) or if, after all, Diglett has simply no reason to come because the team doesn't run anything that is that weak to it (like, the opp is running Choice Scarf Larvesta instead of Evio, which is a quite legit set). But even in these last scenarios, I admit that it can be useful to pick off weakened threats, but then, why are you using Diglett over Abra, which has much more sheer power and doesn't need trapping as it one of the hardest things to switch in?
I'm on the fence with Diglett, because, while I don't think it's that much of a bad presence, teams are kinda the same thing these days, and trapping is overall a bad limiter to battling. On Gothita, I think you all've pointed very well how it involves even more tactical playing than Diglett because it gets locked in a move. You definetely must be sure of what you accomplishing with Gothita.
But seriously, saying thing likes "any kill from dig means its gg, you can't retrieve momentum" pretty much means dig is no risk high reward with some support, which it pretty much isn't lol.

 

[Heysup]

i feel like people often forget that to use Diglett you need to forfeit a member of your team - it's not as easy to build with Diglett than it would be with a Pokemon that has some versatility.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Hey, I just wanted to mention that I don't think the listed b value of 9.0 is quite right. If the b value was actually 9, ladderers aerow's spouse, devil's snare, and Dropout, at the time of this being posted, should already have gotten reqs. Plugging numbers into Antar's formula, the b value looks to be closer to 43.
This means that

GXE N
100 18
90 25
85 32
80 46
78 58
75 91
72 222

isn't true. The numbers should be these:

GXE N
100 84
90 119
85 154
80 224
78 276
75 433
72 1059

 

[Syncrasy]

So will everyone Coil be changed to fit 9 b-value,changed now , or just stay 43?

 

[blarajan]

i feel like people often forget that to use Diglett you need to forfeit a member of your team - it's not as easy to build with Diglett than it would be with a Pokemon that has some versatility.

except it isn't forfeiting a member of your team, it's using a diglett. Just because it doesn't have defensive synergy, that doesn't make it a waste to use, like it's not a waste to use Abra, Elekid, Gastly, or whatever else frail ass Pokemon you want to use. You're using a diglett, a Pokemon that provides intense team support by being its own speed tier, by effectively removing problem Pokemon, by being strong, and being an effective cleaner. Playing with diglett isn't playing a Pokemon down. It's playing with Diglett...

 

[Heysup]

except it isn't forfeiting a member of your team, it's using a diglett. Just because it doesn't have defensive synergy, that doesn't make it a waste to use, like it's not a waste to use Abra, Elekid, Gastly, or whatever else frail ass Pokemon you want to use. You're using a diglett, a Pokemon that provides intense team support by being its own speed tier, by effectively removing problem Pokemon, by being strong, and being an effective cleaner. Playing with diglett isn't playing a Pokemon down. It's playing with Diglett...

It's pretty similar, I don't deny that, but Abra and Gastly can actually OHKO / 2HKO on the switch a very large portion of the metagame. They can take momentum and keep it because not many Pokemon can 1v1 them (particularly Abra). Diglett can't just come in and do something to a full HP Pokemon.

 

[Rowan]

Hey, I just wanted to mention that I don't think the listed b value of 9.0 is quite right. If the b value was actually 9, ladderers aerow's spouse, devil's snare, and Dropout, at the time of this being posted, should already have gotten reqs. Plugging numbers into Antar's formula, the b value looks to be closer to 43.
This means thatisn't true. The numbers should be these:

GXE N
100 84
90 119
85 154
80 224
78 276
75 433
72 1059

this is a legitimate concern

we wanted it to be this formula N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800) (yes atomicllamas, we copied you <3)

Antar, The Immortal, is this fixable, or will we have to change the coil requirements?

 

[The Immortal]

this is a legitimate concern

we wanted it to be this formula N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800) (yes atomicllamas, we copied you <3)

Antar, The Immortal, is this fixable, or will we have to change the coil requirements?

I applied that change already; however, Zarel has to make it visible.

 

[gali]

Hi I'd like to request that the suspect ladder be slightly modified so that every player you face isn't luckier than Tricking and specifically that HJK's accuracy be raised from 20% to the intended value of 90%