Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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Tagging AM in this post,
cloyster.gif
Cloyster to C/C+
Cloyster is a new god and it should honestly be S rank but it actually has nice coverage and a really good natural defense stat, along with shell smash.
but my main reason is this - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-267572732
 
C+? God no. I honestly feel like C is even shooting too high. It's slow as all hell, even after a +2 considering it's likely adamant, and if it's not, it's weak as hell too. I'll admit its coverage is decent, but that is far from enough to warrant a rise. It's got as much bulk as single ply toilet paper, and its typing is horrendous. C- is more than fitting. And honestly, no amount of Low ladder, late game, or lucky sweeps could possibly convince me otherwise.
 
Can someone tell what happends to cloyster? A short time ago everybody was trying to drop it, i would never predict a rise to C-, and now people want him to rise even more
 
I have the feeling it was meant to be a joke nom due to the strikethroughs and "Cloyster is a new god", but I'm not 100% sure - so I'll comment on it anyway to play it safe.

One replay without any other justification used aside from "has nice coverage and good natural defense stat and Shell Smash" is definitely not the picture of a good nom. Not to mention that the replay doesn't really prove anything other than what we know already. Seriously, while the replay itself isn't bad, you see that the opponent's team is really cloyster-weak (it beats over half of the team when you factor in that Celebi is carrying Scarf Healing Wish) if you actually pay attention to the team of AM's opponent. I don't see how or why one Cloyster sweep is being used as the entire basis and justification for it to move up two whole sub-ranks .-.
 
TheAmericanSniper said:
Tagging AM in this post,
cloyster.gif
Cloyster to C/C+
Cloyster is a new god and it should honestly be S rank but it actually has nice coverage and a really good natural defense stat, along with shell smash.
but my main reason is this - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-267572732
Click to expand...
I mean I had the sweep coming cause I knew exactly what I had to do several turns ahead and the freeze on Celebi is what held it back for a couple of turns. I also knew it was best to lead off with it considering nothing on my team could 1v1 Weavile really well and his best option, as he thought, was to bring out Weavile. Also the nature was Naive, I don't see why you would run Adamant when Cloyster functions as a set up sweeper mandated more to a cleaner role, addressed to moose up above, cause you get outpaced by a couple of scarfers like Keldeo. The team also didn't really have anything for most set up sweepers and Cloyster wasn't exactly an exception. Stalls gonna have stuff like Quagsire, Clefable, and Skarmory. Offense is going to have either Klefki or enough pressure to deter a sweep barring circumstances such as mine where team was built with a sweep in mind. I think it's fine where it's at.

Also gamer boy you do realize that half the team can put an enormous dent into Cloyster and have Weavile go for the finishing blow right? Kind of weird to talk about "good noms" and critique it when you're not exactly the arbiter of that subject either ._.
 
It should be noted that this replay shows that SS Cloyster fills a unique niche as it can function as both an anti-lead and lategame sweeper at the same time, provided Healing Wish support is present. As far as I know there is no other pokemon that can fulfill this role. That, and the fact Cloyster is historically known for being the most underrated pokemon in OU, but that's another story.
 
QueenOfHax said:
It should be noted that this replay shows that SS Cloyster fills a unique niche as it can function as both an anti-lead and lategame sweeper at the same time, provided Healing Wish support is present. As far as I know there is no other pokemon that can fulfill this role. That, and the fact Cloyster is historically known for being the most underrated pokemon in OU, but that's another story.
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?

Not really. Having a specific niche or justification to use it doesn't mandate to be at a high rank on ranking threads as subjective as they are. It's in the entire scope of how they function in the meta. Cloysters fine where it's at its role is by no means "unique" as anything with adequate support can fulfill a purpose, either a general or specific one.
 
AM said:
Also gamer boy you do realize that half the team can put an enormous dent into Cloyster and have Weavile go for the finishing blow right? Kind of weird to talk about "good noms" and critique it when you're not exactly the arbiter of that subject either ._.
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I understand I'm not exactly the arbiter of good noms, but on team preview it is easy to see that Cloyster completely shreds that team after setting up provided that Magnezone is down to about 50% (45%-ish assuming AB+MR spread is used) and Heatran is down to 60%. Last time I checked, a +2 Cloyster outpaces Weavile, and Cloyster was capable of setting up on a decent portion of the team (Gyarados is forced out, Chesnaught cannot OHKO with either of its STABs) while being capable of sweeping his entire team after the after the conditions listed above are met, and this isn't hard to achieve considering that the conditions are to weaken two pokemon which lack recovery outside of Tran's Leftovers while being capable of sweeping the entirity of the rest of the team without difficulty at +2. The only way he could escape a sweep after those conditions had been met would have been to have not m-evolved Diancie (as you get OHKOed by Icicle Spear if you do), gotten an intimidate drop from Gyarados and to have Diancie avoid Hydro Pump (which I assume you were running due to you stating that you were using Naive).

My post was more to highlight that you need more than one line of justification on a nom, and tbh the replay wasn't the greatest example as the team matchup was in Cloyster's favor.
 
lonlyboysh said:
Strongly, vehemently, definitely Agrees. While having base 115 speed in OU is above average, its frailty makes it very easy to KO. It also loses to alot of hazard setters such as Ferrothorn, Clefable and Chansey. IMO, the only thing thats keeping it in A is the popularity of Garchomp and Landorus-T with its LO boosted Ice Beams (which is not STAB, btw); though be warned, a scarfed Landorus-T will do 70-85% damage with a U-Turn, which leaves it highly susceptible to be revenge killed afterwards.

Also, it is largely outclassed by the bulky Excadrill, which has a great defensive typing with steel. It'll even live most non-STAB SE special attacks (such as Physical M-Altaria's Fire Blast), among others. I like to pair it with an Air Balloon to maim or OHKO opposing mons.
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Actually, you're not even anywhere close. Sure, Starmie's speed isn't as great of a speed tier as it used to be, but it still outspeeds a vast number of important threats, and LO + Analytic still puts an enormous pressure on teams. In addition, you cherry picked those sets of hazard setters, as aside from Klefki, Ferrothorn, Clefable, and Chansey, Starmie beats the majority of other hazard setters in the metagame. Starmie is in A because its utility of Rapid Spin, along with its solid coverage, Analytic, and speed tier makes it one of the more reliable hazard removers on offensive teams. If you are letting your Starmie be hit by a Scarfed Lando-T U-turn when you didn't want to, then that is your fault for not scouting Lando-T's moveset.

Starmie is far from outclassed by bulky Excadrill. Excadrill is a mediocre Rapid Spin user outside of sand, especially if it is running a bulky set, which only had much use when Mega Sableye was around because Mold Breaker + Toxic was a huge detriment for it. While Excadrill is a proficient spinner under sand, not every offensive team is capable of fitting in a sand setter, and Hippo + Excadrill requires more skill to use effectively due to the lower amount of sand turns. Sure, Starmie's bulky set is rather mediocre right now as well, but Rapid Spin is in particularly high demand right now with Spikes being relatively common on teams right now. I see no reason for Starmie to drop.
 
I been using M-alt lately on ladder and still is a dangerous mon that deserves his S RANK, only need a support mon that deal with opposing steel if your not running Fire Coverage and/or something to deal with wisp talon ( unless your running Facade), so as you can see a few mons to support him and not only are mons exclusive to support Alt also helps in general with the rest of the team and fit very well and every playstyle, and if your not running Gyro Ball on ferro for some weird reason you become a set up fodder. So in conclusion is a hard mon to deal with and gives limits options to build agaisnt it.

And next Zam and Weav really deserve the A+ rank are mons that become really popular in a short time and that's only cuz they're good enough for the metagame.
Mega Kazam able to run some stallbreakers moves like encore/taunt or even Dazzling gleam for Mega Sableye stall, also is really fast and very powerfull able to cleans teams in late game, and most teams are unprepared for fast threats. Same with weavile able to click knock off without fear everytime comes in cuz basically 2hko every check with this respective coverage move bar Keldeo that can only switch in once, yes they're are very frails to priority but same as M-Alt they only need get rid off steels (Scizor only) and a prior damage in the other checks and cleans up late game.

And with Mega gyarados I'm neutral is not very common but still deadly and need the same support that I Mentioned above so w/e
 
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Ill only comment on Heatran as I use Balance (and only balance) and hes on literally all of my teams.

Heatran has always been such a good mon in the sense that its set can really be unpredictable at times. A mon like heatran is good in the sense that you dont know what it set exactly is until you see its moves. It can have Stone Edge or it could be Magma Miss Storm. With that being said, its movepool is pretty amazing. Lava Plume, which is basically a Fire Type Scald, Taunt which can break stallmons and prevent setup sweepers, Toxic (even tho every mon has it) which can stop basically any setup attacker not named Scizor, MG Clef, Manaphy, and Suicune and cripple mons like Talonflame. Magma Storm can trap and stall out so called counters/checks named Azumarill and can easily switch out afterwards (if it hits lol) Stealth rocks is pretty much a defining move in the metagame, being able to set up stealth rocks and check a decent amount of the meta basically sets you in A+. Anyways, even though this guy has been having new enemies and struggles like Tankchomp, honestly a lot of rocks setters, and Hoopa U, it still fares very well with its very balanced 91/106/106 defensive stats. Being able to beat big threats like Clefable, non HP Ground Serperior, TFlame (with Stone Edge), non Low Kick Weavile, Bisharp, other Heatrans, MZor, etc.

Heatran is easily one of the most supportive mons you can have on a team. it is literally one of the most expandable mons in this meta, fitting in to all three playstyles, something that is rare upon mons. It's diversity, movepool, supportive abilities, and overall affect to the team its on definetly gives it A+ for me, it shouldnt drop down as nothing has really changed for him. Hes still strong with Tankchomp around.
 
So I tried switching my Latios into a Heliosk today and I was taken aback.

252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 231-274 (77.2 - 91.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

it just died. One does not simply OHKO Lati with a neutral special attack. Can we get this thing in D rank at least?

Clearly it's unranked because it's perceived to be a poor man's Manectric/Raikou. But even specs Raikou can't OHKO Lati with a super effective Shadow Ball. That should give you an idea of how powerful Heliolisk is when paired with Zard Y.

252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Sun: 343-406 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 312-369 (80.8 - 95.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Heliolisk just straight OHKOs mons that wall Raikou. M-Manectric gives T-tar a free switch in - again, Helio just OHKO's with Focus Blast. Having a powerful secondary STAB in Hyper Voice is a huge advantage. It eases prediction and makes switching in a lot harder for the opponent. You don't have to over predict and use a weak HP Ice on an undesirable target.

Yeah, it's not as fast as other electrics, it can't take hits at all and LO + Solar Power is gonna wear it down fast. But it's clearly not straight up outclassed with its incredible movepool and apparent wallbreaking capabilities. If regular Venusaur can be ranked solely as a Zard Y partner, then I don't see why Heliolisk can't be.
 
Mega Altaria: S --> A+
OH MY GOD YES. AGREED
Mega Altaria was a god in early ORAS. Nobody will deny that. It's still a potent threat. However, it suffers from Mega Metagross syndrome: The meta adapted to it, and it's not nearly as potent anymore. Mega Scizor hurts it a ton. Weavile hurts it a ton. Scarf HUpa isn't doing it any favors as a revenge killer if no DD has been set up. Air Balloon Heatran? Please. Klefki? Please. It just doesn't work as well anymore as it once did. It's by no means a bad choice for a Mega. I wouldn't dare say something like that. But right now, the meta's just not kind to it. I'm backing MAltaria to go down to A+. And I vote for Mega Metagross to go back up to S but y'know

Mega Gyarados: A+ --> A
...You're joking right?
Mega Gyarados... Down to A... WHAT? Has NOBODY used this thing properly? It's a god damn MONSTER. It sets up a Dragon Dance, now what? It's incredibly bulky, it has a great type offensively (and it's not even THAT bad defensively), It can beat MZard X one on one, it OHKOs or 2HKOs almost the entire metagame, Ferrothorn, who may I remind you is SUPPOSED to be one of it's counters, has a high chance to be 2HKO'd by a +1 Crunch after SRs, can break stall with Taunt, avoid status with Sub DD, etc. WHY ARE WE TRYING TO LOWER THIS THING?

Heatran: A+ --> A
.......... I won't beat a dead horse.
NOBODY is voting for Heatran to go down. I won't beat a dead horse and list the reasons why it shouldn't be lowered. There's literally no good argument for it going down.

Weavile: A --> A+
THANK YOU. [Daniel Bryan Intensifies] YES. YES. YES.
This thing should've been A+ from the start. It has VERY few switchins. (Mega) Scizor, Infernape, and Keldeo are the ONLY, may I repeat, ONLY guaranteed switchins to this thing that can reliably KO it back. It's speed is incredible, it threatens almost the entire tier with it's Life Orb set alone, can break through almost anything with a SD boost, and does well against just about every playstyle out there. It works on Offense, works on Hyper Offense, works on Balance, etc. This thing NEEDS A+. Anything below is criminally underrating it.

Starmie: A --> A-
Eeehhh...
I'm mixed on this one. I use Starmie a bit, so I feel like I should touch upon this topic. Starmie has a good speed tier, can clear hazards, and dent switchins with it's Analytic Hydro Pumps. However, it lacks raw power without Analytic boosts, is incredibly frail, and from my experience, has trouble fitting on some offensive teams without stacking some weaknesses. I honestly see it dropping instead of staying, but it shouldn't go below A-.

Mega Alakazam: A --> A+
No. Just, no.
It's not bad. not by any means. It has an incredible speed tier, an incredible special attack stat, and a good ability in Trace, allowing it to revenge kill weather sweepers, gain great offensive abilities, etc. However, it's frail as all hell. And for a Mega Evolution, I feel like it's limited in what it can do too much for it to be warranted a spot on A+. I think it's one of the best pokemon in the A Tier, I just don't think it fits in A+ with what it has to offer.

Smeargle: D --> Unranked
Do you even have to ask?
YES. YES. YES. YES. YES. This thing lost EVERY niche it had with it's loss of Speed Passing, and just became completely unviable after the Baton Pass nerf. Well, that implies that it was EVER viable.
 
TheNegativeOne said:
Mega Altaria: S --> A+
OH MY GOD YES. AGREED
Mega Altaria was a god in early ORAS. Nobody will deny that. It's still a potent threat. However, it suffers from Mega Metagross syndrome: The meta adapted to it, and it's not nearly as potent anymore. Mega Scizor hurts it a ton. Weavile hurts it a ton. Scarf HUpa isn't doing it any favors as a revenge killer if no DD has been set up. Air Balloon Heatran? Please. Klefki? Please. It just doesn't work as well anymore as it once did. It's by no means a bad choice for a Mega. I wouldn't dare say something like that. But right now, the meta's just not kind to it. I'm backing MAltaria to go down to A+. And I vote for Mega Metagross to go back up to S but y'know
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Except there's a HUGE difference in MegaGross and mAlt. mAlt can, and if it needs to will, run the move needed to beat one of its said checks. MegaGross could do nothing more than hope for attack buffs from Meteor Mash or net lucky crits, OR, run far from stellar moves in order to beat its most common switch ins. mAlt can run EQ for tran, and Flash cannon Tran is few and far between, even then, it's not OHKO'ing, so return + EQ and buh bye Tran. mZor doesn't take Fire blasts, and BP fails to OHKO fat mAlt. It has its way around its checks, where as MegaGross has to cross its fingers to do so.
Comparing the two is probably not the best idea. Honestly, idk if the meta has adapted anywhere near what you're making it out to be. Mega Altaria is still an obscene threat to any and all teams, even your measly checks aren't enough to stop the fairy overlord.
 
Of Moose & Men said:
Except there's a HUGE difference in MegaGross and mAlt. mAlt can, and if it needs to will, run the move needed to beat one of its said checks. MegaGross could do nothing more than hope for attack buffs from Meteor Mash or net lucky crits, OR, run far from stellar moves in order to beat its most common switch ins. mAlt can run EQ for tran, and Flash cannon Tran is few and far between, even then, it's not OHKO'ing, so return + EQ and buh bye Tran. mZor doesn't take Fire blasts, and BP fails to OHKO fat mAlt. It has its way around its checks, where as MegaGross has to cross its fingers to do so.
Comparing the two is probably not the best idea. Honestly, idk if the meta has adapted anywhere near what you're making it out to be. Mega Altaria is still an obscene threat to any and all teams, even your measly checks aren't enough to stop the fairy overlord.
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I wasn't talking about Flash Cannon in the first place. I was more referencing Heatran poisoning or burning it, crippling it. But yes, you have a point. Comparing MAlt and MMeta wasn't the BEST comparison I could've made, but there's still a point to it: It's not the god it once was.
 
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Mega Altaria S -> A+ Neutral, but inclined to agree slightly. Comparatively I'd say Altaria has currently slumped below Char X, is comparable to Metagross and Gyarados, but above Diancie (who I think should drop to A personally) in effectiveness. While its typing is great, it isn't initially, and its SR weak. Coupled by its speed, it can be hard for the sweeper set to shine. Metagross comparatively gets an immense speed boost, and Gyarados, while SR weak, does as least have Intimidate to prompt switches. It is indeed versatile as all hell, but I think it has reached that level of jack of all trades but master of none, that I don't think defines S rank currently.

Mega Gyarados A+ -> A Disagree. I can see why this nomination is here, but I don't agree with it. Intimidate is more useful in a more offensively inclined meta actually providing Gyara with more set up opportunities, and is a DD sweeper that need not wait until late game to attempt a sweep. Gyara's bulk and typing makes it an amazing Healing Wish recipient and perhaps the mega most likely to set up a second time after being switched out. Something that is often overlooked is Gyara's typing makes it resistant to a whopping 5 types of priority, meaning that if their team has their scarfer eliminated they will be hard pressed to knock out Gyara, especially when CB Talonflame, Dragonite, Breloom and Conkeldurr users aren't exactly en vogue currently. Finally, DD + 3 attacks is a thing, and you need not use both STABs. Either Crunch or Waterfall can function as amazing mono-STABs thanks to good neutral coverage and their secondary effects and Gyara can be a far more threatening or potent sweeper if you decide to run 2 coverage moves like Iron Head for Altaria and Clefable, Ice Fang for Venusaur, Garchomp and other 4x weak mons, or EQ for Manectric, etc.

Mega Alakazam A -> A+ Agree. Been trying out Zam lately and man, while we all know how fast 150 is on paper, its something else entirely when you see the opponent's team and how self assured you feel knowing you have something this fast and powerful on your side without requiring a boost. It really isn't a sacrifice of a mega at ALL. Pick any standard semo-stall hazard stacking core to whittle the opponent's team and barring things like Chansey, Zam can finish just about anything it wants with its great neutral coverage, or revenge damn near anything offensive it wants to as well. Its so fast it can revenge +1 Gyarados (barring Focus Miss). And while its frail, Trace really helps alleviate this to a degree like Heatran, Manectric, etc. Then of course there the fact that it outright counters almost every weather dependent mon thanks to Trace. Having all of that in one package is REALLY not sacrificing your mega slot, certainly not for climbing the ladder. The main downsides are of course forced out by any and all priority (and even then, Reflect on a predicted switch can mitigate this to a degree), horrible mono-Psychic typing for STAB and defensive purposes, reliance on Focus Blast, and a degree of 4MSS. You really want coverage moves like Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Dazzling Gleam and HP Fire to take out would be walls, but there's also lots of uses in Encore, Taunt, Reflect, and even Calm Mind end game. Regardless, he has proven to be an amazing asset when I use him, especially for smart players who can make the most of Trace.

Starmie A -> A- Disagree. Its speed tier is too useful for it to drop, and it has plenty of tools to be a continued asset, albeit it can certainly be spread too thin. It's still the best offensive spinner there is barring Excadrill in sand, and has great matchups against most hazard setters with Analytic Hydro Pump and Ice Beam, and its still one of the best switch ins to Scald thanks to its typing and Natural Cure, and even handles Sub-CM Keldeo with Recover and Psyshock alone. Of course it can't do everything at once, but between its speed tier, utility options, and good offensive presence if need be, I think it remains a cut above A-.

Smeargle D -> Unranked A-effing-men to that.
 
Mega Altaria: S --> A+: Neutral
The main thing with M-Altaria is 4 slot move syndrome. It hits like a truck even at neutral to many things, but one popular physical wall, (other than Garchomp, but even Rough Skin+Rocky Helmet does well) and it finds itself struggling. Lando-T and Ferro give it tons of trouble, and a burn will cripple it unless it's running Facade, not too common if you ask me. That being said it still does deserve to stay because without any of the aforementioned checks, Scizor, or Weavile (or Bronzong, this thing runs rampant over teams. It can run Fire Blast or special sets, but those don't quite have the popularity or prowess of the DD set (in my opinion).

Mega Gyarados: A+ --> A: Disagree
Mega Gyarados... Down to A... WHAT? Has NOBODY used this thing properly? It's a god damn MONSTER. It sets up a Dragon Dance, now what? It's incredibly bulky, it has a great type offensively (and it's not even THAT bad defensively), It can beat MZard X one on one, it OHKOs or 2HKOs almost the entire metagame, Ferrothorn, who may I remind you is SUPPOSED to be one of it's counters, has a high chance to be 2HKO'd by a +1 Crunch after SRs, can break stall with Taunt, avoid status with Sub DD, etc. WHY ARE WE TRYING TO LOWER THIS THING?
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TheNegativeOne's post explains this better than I could ever.

Heatran: A+ --> A: Nein, Disagree
Far too splashable on most teams. Walls many threats. Only thing keeping it from being S-Rank (imo) is lack of reliable recovery and weakness to some common attacking moves/types.

Weavile: A --> A+: Agree
Can outspeed and OHKO so many common threats and 2HKO's almost all common defensive walls, has very few switch-ins, and is a danger to most OU mons in general. However, priority is its bane; its too frail to switch in on anything other than a well predicted Psyshock. That being said, it's still too good and too powerful not to be A+. It and Bisharp do similar-ish things (Knock Off 4 dayz), but if Bisharp is A+, then there's no reason Weavile shouldn't also.

Starmie: A --> A-: More inclined to agree, but still not sure...
This opinion is more a lack of experience using Starmie than anything else. I found it relatively successful with two sets, AV (which is garbage now btw), and LO spinner. LO spinner was the more successful of the two because it did the two things I asked of it well: spin, and outspeed stuff. I've never properly used Reflect Type, or been able to slap recover on any of my sets. The reason i'm still unsure is that, well, it did its job. Granted, it wasn't a very taxing job, but it did well. What keeps me still on the fence is that is usually doesn't hit hard enough, or gets walled by Ferro, some Scizors, etc.

Mega Alakazam: A --> A+: Disagree
It's fast, and powerful, but not powerful enough. It doesn't do enough damage to most things and is usually OHKO'd back. This is more from the experience of other people using Zam against me, but then again, maybe I just plan really well.

Smeargle: D --> Unranked: STRONGLY AGREE
Lost all niche it had when BP was banned and spore was nerfed. Really not too shabby in AG, but a terrible in OU.


 
fireblaster1357 said:
Heatran: A+ --> A: Nein, Disagree
Far too splashable on most teams. Walls many threats. Only thing keeping it from being S-Rank (imo) is lack of reliable recovery and weakness to some common attacking moves/types.
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None of Heatran's sets, aside from Magma Storm, are particularly splashable. While it checks a good number of Pokemon, none of its sets are particularly great outside of Magma Storm, which is the only thing of real value that is keeping Heatran as A+ rank. Every other set is not as threatening, and Heatran is not that difficult to play around.
 
at first i thought Starmie was really trash, but it is by far the best rapid spinner in the meta. Excadrill is dull and frail (even with its shitty AV set) and... the other rapid spinners (Avalugg anyone?) are usually unviable and passive (besides Tenta). From what i see, Starmie is sure as hell not A because of its Bulky set (honestly, i find no success with using Starmie on Balance... and yes i may just be trash but it really is trash...) but for its LO Offensive set. This thing may be frail but it sure as hell is scary for balance. Starmie turns into a very speedy threat to playstyles with an amazing diverse movepool and access to rapid spin, which when used correctly can give you a hefty advantage. Stuff like Torn T cant switch into Analytic Ice Beam, as it gets 60%+ of its health taken. Speaking of that, its abilities are actually very good. Natural Cure is good if you are looking for a mon to soak up Status and such. Analytic is great as Starmie forces out many switchins due to its intimidation and movepool, and Illuminate is probably his best ability tbh. basically its balance set is p trash, RT has no use in this meta and starmie fails to wall any attacks, like what can it switch into??? heatran? thats all i can think of. It's use on HO however probably puts the nail in him for A rank due to it just being so scary and when used right can even take out entire teams. Keep in A.

now i wanna talk about another mon that isnt exactly in the list of mons to discuss. So, as a monotype player i have been looking at a mon in particular, and it is Meloetta. Honestly it being only in D rank is somewhat understandable, but hear me out. It is not on par with mediocremons like Shedinja, Blissey, salamence, etc. it can actually pull in a lot of weight with its strength and bulk. Having a unique typing with a Ghost resist, meaning it could counter LO Gengar (it gets 5HKO'ed by Sludge wave with max SpDef invest, but no one is running max spdef) and some other special attackers like Megaman or Keld. Its Specs set takes the role of a surprisingly hard hitting mon that actually beats shit like Manaphy, Tankchomp, Clefable (kinda), Mixed Hippo, etc. Speaking of that, it defeats many SR setters like Lando-T, taking a chunk of his health (around 90%), Skarmory, which loses to Shadow Ball or Focus Blast due to its strength, Heatran, which is nearly OHKO'ed with FB (for its SpDef set) and can really do nothing back, etc. Its not just good for hitting hard though. As I said, it's AV set is good in the sense that is is extremely bulky, getting 5HKO'ed by Sludge Wave LO Gengar, which is quite a feat seeing it doesnt resist it. Honestly, all i can say is that its niche of being a good special wall and a very good special sweeper (albeit losing to sucker punch users and pursuit trappers) deserves C- at least. Not a huge deal, i dont expect anyone to blow up over this nom, but i think it has what it takes.
 
MrCookiepants said:
So I tried switching my Latios into a Heliosk today and I was taken aback.

252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 231-274 (77.2 - 91.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

it just died. One does not simply OHKO Lati with a neutral special attack. Can we get this thing in D rank at least?

Clearly it's unranked because it's perceived to be a poor man's Manectric/Raikou. But even specs Raikou can't OHKO Lati with a super effective Shadow Ball. That should give you an idea of how powerful Heliolisk is when paired with Zard Y.

252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Sun: 343-406 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 312-369 (80.8 - 95.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Heliolisk just straight OHKOs mons that wall Raikou. M-Manectric gives T-tar a free switch in - again, Helio just OHKO's with Focus Blast. Having a powerful secondary STAB in Hyper Voice is a huge advantage. It eases prediction and makes switching in a lot harder for the opponent. You don't have to over predict and use a weak HP Ice on an undesirable target.

Yeah, it's not as fast as other electrics, it can't take hits at all and LO + Solar Power is gonna wear it down fast. But it's clearly not straight up outclassed with its incredible movepool and apparent wallbreaking capabilities. If regular Venusaur can be ranked solely as a Zard Y partner, then I don't see why Heliolisk can't be.
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I would like to mention that functioning under weather isn't the only thing Heliolisk can do well - Dry Skin allows it to fit on teams that really hate bulky waters, check BD Azu, and it can break most common electric switch-ins with it's Specs set - except for SpD Venu who dies in the sun anyways. Surf - additionally, makes it unnecessary to run HP Ice although it's not the most desirable of options under the sun, it breaks fat grounds and Heatran without shaky accuracy on it. Even outside of weather, it still has a small niche.
 
Can I ask what the ranking team's opinion is of Hoopa? What has changed for it since it was ranked S? I understand that new toy syndrome may have worn off, but the metagame is still almost as unprepared for it as ever. There are still numerous 50/50s scouting its set, whether or not it is special or physical, and it still has the monstrous offenses that put it up there in the first place.
 
quagback2qc said:
Can I ask what the ranking team's opinion is of Hoopa? What has changed for it since it was ranked S? I understand that new toy syndrome may have worn off, but the metagame is still almost as unprepared for it as ever. There are still numerous 50/50s scouting its set, whether or not it is special or physical, and it still has the monstrous offenses that put it up there in the first place.
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if our opinion definitely changed then hoopa-u would've moved down already. putting something up on a current slate doesn't condemn it to the rank its nominated as.
 
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