Project OU Theorymon

Hm, interesting slate. (good riddance protean hydregion and moxie weavile)
Klingklang+technician: before voting for this, I would ask myself this: do I want a ridiculous setup sweeper with amazing speed, fantastic coverage, and a decent type? I personally don't. It could just steamroll any unprepared teams, and it would find plenty of ways to set up. I'm gonna have to pass on this one, cause it doesn't really add anything interesting.

torterra+drought:
I'd like to see sun get better, and I think that this would help. but gotta agree with Akumeoy here that it wouldn't be a good enough buff for sun to shine. (rimshot)

magnet pull Cobalion: I'd like to see this happen because I think he'd be an excellent all-around poke. as KSH mentioned above me, he'd work great with faries who can't take on steels themselves. however, he's still capable of dealing with other pokes as well thanks to that awesome secondary fighting type and CC.

Ghost/electric type+volt switch mismangius: ok, having a ton of resists is cool, and volt switch is useful too. makes me wonder what its niche would be, or its teammates;

Mismagius @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Dazzling Gleam

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Return
- Substitute
- Encore
I have no idea whether this would work, but since lopunny is immune or resists all of Mismagius's weaknesses, i think it might be a good match
 
Klinklang + Technician and Bulldoze
Yikes! With Technician + Gear Grind reaching immense power, and Shift Gear to boot, this thing is gonna boast some epic sweeping potential. Technician boosted Bulldoze finally gives the gear some much needed coverage, and the speed drop gives some nice utility that in practice would actually come in handy quite often. Doubt it'll have the slots for it and it'll probably be very niche but I do wonder if there would be any value to a Bulldoze + Volt Switch set (rounded out with Gear Grind and Shift Gear of course), using the speeds drops and pivoting to help remove Klinklang's checks. Between Gear Grind and Bulldoze, the majority of Klinklang's checks have rather exploitable 4x weaknesses, meaning you can run various Technician boosted Hidden Powers to pick your poison and let your allies handle the rest.
Something which I don't think has been touched on yet though is that Gear Grind actually only has 85% accuracy. Obviously its not that bad but for something that is meant to be sweeping or cleaning, a crucial miss could easily lose you the game. When I used Klinklang in the lower tiers I seem to remember losing quite a few games due to Gear Grind's poor accuracy. Just something to keep in mind when considering what sweeper would be the most consistent for your team.
Another thing I don't think was mentioned was that it beats Sash Alakazam. I know people said it beats Sturdy and Sashes but this I think is an important one because it is a common threat on offense used to prevent such sweeps, but Klinky don't give a damn.
I honestly can't see me voting for this though. I'm a bit over fast and powerful sweepers, and with Gear Grind giving +2 Speed and +1 Atk, and Technician making Gear Grind crazy, this may be a little over the top. It just has such extreme levels of speed and power, especially for a non mega.
This calc scares me and I don't like it:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 268-320 (88.1 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Magnet Pull Cobalion
This is probably my second favorite on what is a great slate. For a trapper it boasts some great versatility. I particularly like the idea of an anti lead with Taunt, Stealth Rock, Close Combat and Volt Switch. There are many steel type hazard setters out there that don't always necessarily lead, but its not that uncommon. Things like Klefki, Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, etc. The boosting sets I feel will be among the most powerful though. The combination of Sub/Taunt + SD vs passive steels like Ferrothorn would easily allow Cobalion to nab a couple boosts from SD or CM (or RP I guess). Its speed isn't that greatest, but its enough to get Keldeo by, and STAB CC at like +4 will be pretty nasty. I can see stall struggling against this.
My favorite thing about Magnet Pull Cobalion though is that it is designed to be a team player. It functions perfectly fine by its self, but when removing steels for a powerful sweeper like Mega Altaria it is just that much better. I LOVE that it can trap and destroy Bisharp, now being its best counter by far. This trait will make it an epic partner to Psychics vulnerable to Pursuit trapping like the Lati twins. It also wrecks Tyranitar and Weavile just to further this point (thought it could of course do this before and can't trap them).
But yeah, versatile, strong, and great utility to help out the team. Definitely a strong vote contender.

Ghost/Electric Mismagius + Volt Switch
Not sure really. At a glance it seems like standard Rotom on roids, only the roids weren't really enough.
They both share Ghost/Electric typing + Levitate, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Will-O-Wisp, and Volt Switch.
In comparison the stats look like this:
Rotom -> Mismagius
50 -> 60 - +10
50 -> 60 - +10
77 -> 60 - -17
95 -> 105 - +10
77 -> 105 - +28
91 -> 105 - +14
I don't know. When I think about how useless Rotom is it just doesn't seem that much better.
So lets have a looksy. The biggest thing going for Mismagius in my eyes is its access to boosting moves in Calm Mind and Nasty Plot, and also the speed tier is much better (though still slightly lacking). But then I feel like the addition of Volt Switch doesn't suit a boosting set, and I reckon Volt Switch would work best on Scarf sets if you don't want other electrics to do it better, in which case boosting is even less relevant. But I honestly can't look past the boosting. The only OU relevant pokemon that resist Electric + Ghost coverage are Diggersby, Hydreigon and Krookadile. Hence, a Sub Nasty Plot set with dual STAB would be a great stall breaker. If you do wanna abuse Volt Switch though I would go with Scarf. The power is fairly poor but a fast Volt Switch is always the best Volt Switch for something so frail and a quick Ghost STAB is nice enough to be locked into with few solid resistances. Utility moves like Destiny Bond and Trick are also good for the scarf set.
Looking at the added resistances from Electric typing, here are some of the new things Mismag can check:
Thundurus-I/T, Tornadus-T, Mega Manectric, Skarmory, Magnezone, and not too much else tbh. Physical steels still break you, due to your piss poor Physical defence, unless you run Will-O-Wisp which opens up a few opportunities.
I just think that as a Ghost, Gengar is better, and as an Electric type, most things are better. And together, they just aren't impressive enough to make Mismagius anything too special.
I feel like this'll end up being one of those C rank pokemon that are useable but no one uses them. At best it reminds me of standard Cobalion, only worse.

Drought Torterra
Saving the best till last imo. A well deserved reslate of what I believe to be the last winner of Alexwolf's thread? I've been waiting for this thing to return for a while and hinted at it a fair bit with the council members. So lets discuss.
I honestly believe that Drought Torterra has what it takes to make dedicated sun teams a thing that exists again. 2 of sun's biggest problems are its weakness to Talonflame and stacking SR weaknesses. With a sun setter that resists SR and has epic synergy with amazing sun abuser and great Talonflame check, Scarf Heatran (also not weak to SR), all of a sudden Sun teams are seeming a lot more viable. I'm thinking that AV Slowking could round out the FWG core as a Fighting resist and now we're looking really solid. The reduced Scald power isn't that big a deal, it still burns and you still have another STAB, plus Fire Blast in sun is more powerful than STAB Scald outside sun anyway. I might write up this core later.
As a side note, sun was gifted this gen with Mega Diancie which also helps vs SR and Talonflame. Torterra also has Ground STAB which when combined with Stone Edge for Edgequake, allows the tortoise to threaten many of the pokemon that would give sun teams trouble such as Talon, Heatran, and the Zards.
Torterra has great defensive synergy with Fire type sun abusers, being able to take on Ground and Rock types with ease. In fact it is 1 of 4 pokemon to resist edgequake and the only one of the 4 to not be Fighting/Grass. Synthesis recovering 75% and 95/105/85 defences give Torterra the ability to easily outlast opposing weather inducers (something Ninetales failed to do), except for maybe Hippo. Torty also provides SR support for its great wall breakers and sweepers.
So lets look at the rest of its partners.
I've mentioned Scarfed Heatran, which doesn't need much of an explanation, neither does Victini. I also mentioned Mega Diancie which can fit in REALLY well on sun teams.
Chlorophyl Venusaur is an outstanding sweeper, particularly with Growth. It'll be nice to see this thing being relevant again.
A couple new faces for sun would be Heliolisk and Mega Houndoom. Specs Heliolisk with Solar Power is actually and really strong. As for Mega Houndoom:
+2 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 435-513 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kingdra in Sun: 247-291 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So yay sun teams will be legit good!

To continue the hype, and drag this post out even longer, lets talk about Torterra by itself.
It has a lot of great defensive niches. Resists Edgequake, is a ground type the resists Water thanks to Drought, has great mixed bulk, solid offensive presence, Roar, Leech Seed, SR, 75% recovery, and removes opposing weather.
One of my favorite things about Torterra by itself is that it can be EVd to be a guaranteed switch in to Azumaril. Not many pokemon can boast that. At all.
A spread of 96 HP / 40 Atk / 252 Def / 120 Spe with an Adamant Nature does the Trick.
The speed evs are to creep standard BD Azumaril, the Atk guarantees the OHKO with Wood Hammer, and the rest is dumped into physical bulk.
40+ Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 384-452 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 96 HP / 252 Def Torterra: 205-243 (57.7 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 96 HP / 252 Def Torterra in Sun: 45-54 (12.6 - 15.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 96 HP / 252 Def Torterra in Sun: 120-142 (33.8 - 40%) -- 32.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So even when not on dedicated sun team, Torterra is still a great pokemon to have as a counter to Azumaril, Keldeo, Sand, Edgequake, and just a really solid Tank with lots of great assets defensively, offensively and utility wise.

Vote Drought Torterra! :D
 
The problem I see with Drought Torterra is the low base speed paired with a case of 4MMS: you want Synthesis (to enhance its durability even though a weather setter screws your recovery and 8 PP are few), Stone Edge/Rock Slide (vs opponent's traditional "checks/counters")+Wood Hammer (vs bulky waters even though Ice coverage is a thing and the recoil is a real downside)+Earthquake (vs steels) and you are forced to forget Stealth Rock and Leech Seed/Toxic/Rock Polish.

Small things, with the spread suggested of 96 HP / 40 Atk / 252 Def / 120 Spe with an Adamant Nature Torterra:
* misses the OHKO on Mega-Pinsir swith-in:
54+ Atk Torterra Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 228-272 (84.1 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
* Both Stone Edge and Rock Slide fails to OHKO regular Pinsir switch-in; the same happens with Mega-Pidgeot with a 2x weakness to Rock.
* 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 96 HP / 252 Def Torterra: 300-356 (84.5 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (but Wood Hammer has recoil)


I will not vote Torterra because, even though it is a decent non-Mega sun setter we don't have now and a good way to improve other pokemons such as Mega-Houndoom, it can't abuse sun properly on his own (bar 8 PP Synthesis) and is slow (=magnet for burn/Toxic).

I like Torterra but there are better/stronger options for a sun setter.

P.S. Where is Virizion + Drought? It was a "Runner Up" in the last post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-theorymon-voting-check-post-3272.3519178/)
 
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Drought Torterra
Saving the best till last imo. A well deserved reslate of what I believe to be the last winner of Alexwolf's thread? I've been waiting for this thing to return for a while and hinted at it a fair bit with the council members. So lets discuss.
I honestly believe that Drought Torterra has what it takes to make dedicated sun teams a thing that exists again. 2 of sun's biggest problems are its weakness to Talonflame and stacking SR weaknesses. With a sun setter that resists SR and has epic synergy with amazing sun abuser and great Talonflame check, Scarf Heatran (also not weak to SR), all of a sudden Sun teams are seeming a lot more viable. I'm thinking that AV Slowking could round out the FWG core as a Fighting resist and now we're looking really solid. The reduced Scald power isn't that big a deal, it still burns and you still have another STAB, plus Fire Blast in sun is more powerful than STAB Scald outside sun anyway. I might write up this core later.
As a side note, sun was gifted this gen with Mega Diancie which also helps vs SR and Talonflame. Torterra also has Ground STAB which when combined with Stone Edge for Edgequake, allows the tortoise to threaten many of the pokemon that would give sun teams trouble such as Talon, Heatran, and the Zards.
Torterra has great defensive synergy with Fire type sun abusers, being able to take on Ground and Rock types with ease. In fact it is 1 of 4 pokemon to resist edgequake and the only one of the 4 to not be Fighting/Grass. Synthesis recovering 75% and 95/105/85 defences give Torterra the ability to easily outlast opposing weather inducers (something Ninetales failed to do), except for maybe Hippo. Torty also provides SR support for its great wall breakers and sweepers.
So lets look at the rest of its partners.
I've mentioned Scarfed Heatran, which doesn't need much of an explanation, neither does Victini. I also mentioned Mega Diancie which can fit in REALLY well on sun teams.
Chlorophyl Venusaur is an outstanding sweeper, particularly with Growth. It'll be nice to see this thing being relevant again.
A couple new faces for sun would be Heliolisk and Mega Houndoom. Specs Heliolisk with Solar Power is actually and really strong. As for Mega Houndoom:
+2 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 435-513 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kingdra in Sun: 247-291 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So yay sun teams will be legit good!

To continue the hype, and drag this post out even longer, lets talk about Torterra by itself.
It has a lot of great defensive niches. Resists Edgequake, is a ground type the resists Water thanks to Drought, has great mixed bulk, solid offensive presence, Roar, Leech Seed, SR, 75% recovery, and removes opposing weather.
One of my favorite things about Torterra by itself is that it can be EVd to be a guaranteed switch in to Azumaril. Not many pokemon can boast that. At all.
A spread of 96 HP / 40 Atk / 252 Def / 120 Spe with an Adamant Nature does the Trick.
The speed evs are to creep standard BD Azumaril, the Atk guarantees the OHKO with Wood Hammer, and the rest is dumped into physical bulk.
40+ Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 384-452 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 96 HP / 252 Def Torterra: 205-243 (57.7 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 96 HP / 252 Def Torterra in Sun: 45-54 (12.6 - 15.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 96 HP / 252 Def Torterra in Sun: 120-142 (33.8 - 40%) -- 32.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So even when not on dedicated sun team, Torterra is still a great pokemon to have as a counter to Azumaril, Keldeo, Sand, Edgequake, and just a really solid Tank with lots of great assets defensively, offensively and utility wise.

Vote Drought Torterra! :D
This does make me like Torterra more; my analysis last night was admittedly a bit superficial. I still feel that sun needs something more, but this doesn't hurt at all.
Skarmory and Ferrothorn still have the option of running Shed Shell, and it's not like they need Leftovers/Rocky Helmets in order to function, so they won't become deadweight against other teams. Hell, I think some Skarmories in OU run Shed Shell already to deal with Magnezone.
This is true, and I did make the post under the assumption that Shed Shell was single-use, but that still doesn't make me happy with hindering the usefulness of some of the meta's most useful blanket checks. Countering Bisharp is cool, but ultimately not worth it imo.
 
The problem I see with Drought Torterra is the low base speed paired with a case of 4MMS: you want Synthesis (to enhance its durability even though a weather setter screws your recovery and 8 PP are few), Stone Edge/Rock Slide (vs opponent's traditional "checks/counters")+Wood Hammer (vs bulky waters even though Ice coverage is a thing and the recoil is a real downside)+Earthquake (vs steels) and you are forced to forget Stealth Rock and Leech Seed/Toxic/Rock Polish.

Small things, with the spread suggested of 96 HP / 40 Atk / 252 Def / 120 Spe with an Adamant Nature Torterra:
* misses the OHKO on Mega-Pinsir swith-in:
54+ Atk Torterra Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 228-272 (84.1 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
* Both Stone Edge and Rock Slide fails to OHKO regular Pinsir switch-in; the same happens with Mega-Pidgeot with a 4x weakness.
* 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 96 HP / 252 Def Torterra: 300-356 (84.5 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (but Wood Hammer has recoil)


I will not vote Torterra because a decent non-Mega sun setter is something we don't have and a good way to improve other pokemons (for example Mega-Houndoom) but can't abuse sun properly on his own (bar 8 PP Synthesis) and is slow (=magnet for burn/Toxic).

I like Torterra but there are better/stronger options for a sun setter.
I wouldn't necessarily say that there are stronger options for a sun setter. Sure you can use Ninetales, but that has a rocks weakness. This is where Torterra is better. Terra can come in many, many, many more times due to its resistance, and therefore doesn't forfeit as much momentum as Tales does due to Ninetales requiring hazard removal. Torterra is also more of a team player for sun in that it can beat the other weather setters like Ttar, Hippo, and Politoed unlike Ninetales. Torterra also doesn't require Rock coverage because sand Tyranitar is an excellent partner to many sun abusers due to it trapping the Lati twins.

I think people are blowing the 8 pp of Synthesis out of proportion. Sure it's a little bit of an issue, but gaining back 81% (with lefties) in one turn is still incredible, and gives Torterra a bit of leeway.
 
I just want to remind everyone that Synthesis in the sun recovers 66% of Torterra's max HP, not 75%. That being said, Torterra is one hell of a fantastic support mon that'll probably get my vote. I'll write more later.
 
Yes, Torterra can come in many times to set-up Sun but, then, how to use it? Torterra has a low speed and a 120 base power and STAB which has recoil to decimate some weather setters and itself in the process.

Torterra has good numerical bulk but being weak to 3 common types (Water types -which Torterra should beat- can use Ice coverage) and weak to U-turn is really bad even if you gain back 81% with lefties in one turn because is a huge tempo loss not to mention that nice 30% burn chance when you switch or you are hit by Scald from Water types you are supposed to beat always.

Without Rock coverage, in my opinion, Torterra is forced to run away from too many 4x Grass/Earth resist/immunities ==> I don't recommend it.

P.S. Virizion + Drought is missing from the Runner-up List!!! Look at there: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-theorymon-voting-check-post-3272.3519178/. Virizion + Drought was the first runner-up!
 
Yes, Torterra can come in many times to set-up Sun but, then, how to use it? Torterra has a low speed and a 120 base power and STAB which has recoil to decimate some weather setters and itself in the process.

Torterra has good numerical bulk but being weak to 3 common types (Water types -which Torterra should beat- can use Ice coverage) and weak to U-turn is really bad even if you gain back 81% with lefties in one turn because is a huge tempo loss not to mention that nice 30% burn chance when you switch or you are hit by Scald from Water types you are supposed to beat always.

Without Rock coverage, in my opinion, Torterra is forced to run away from too many 4x Grass/Earth resist/immunities ==> I don't recommend it.

P.S. Virizion + Drought is missing from the Runner-up List!!! Look at there: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-theorymon-voting-check-post-3272.3519178/. Virizion + Drought was the first runner-up!
I think it was excluded on the basis that Virizion + Trace was already voted in.
 
Current Slate:

+ Technician and Bulldoze (Credit to Brawl MK )
+ Drought (Credit to YouAreOutOfMy5 )
+ Magnet Pull
+ Electric / Ghost and Volt Switch
Klinklang: Another attempt at making a crazy setup sweeper. This one probably can be stopped by a couple of defensive mons though, its coverage isn't that great, and it is stopped by burn and para. Finally one that isn't goddamn broken but I still think +1 Technician Gear Grind will cause havoc.

Torterra: What attempt number is this to put drought on a random grass type mon to make it viable? Sorry I'm just not feeling it, it's better than most of the random grass drought mons that people come up with because it benefits more from the water weakening but other than that it doesn't solve any of Torterra's problems.

Cobalion: Ok kinda cool. I still would like a Magnet Pull mon who can actually beat MMeta but this can at least beat Heatran more reliably than Magnezone.

Mismagius: Uhh ok the theme really isn't there for this one but ok let's analyze it. Honestly I'd rather it get Focus Blast than Volt Switch just to have a chance to bop Tyranitar or Bisharp. It kinda improves its matchup against Excadrill and kinda Torn T I guess. It's def is so piss poor even its electric type doesn't protect it from birdspam really except for Torn-T which kills it with Knock Off. Really it wishes it were like 115 speed instead of 105
 
Oh good god, Torterra's finally back!

I loved this idea back on the old threads, because I think it exemplified what Theorymon was trying to do: bring in something that would have an influence on the Metagame. Torterra is almost the perfect Sun Setter on paper: Good Bulk, pretty decent typing for the role (SR resistance!), reliable recovery boosted by its Sun, high BP moves to avoid total passiveness, as well as Leech Seed to exploit forced switches if it changes the weather.

Sun was always the weakest of the 3 prime weathers (lol Hail), because of synergistic problems: Grass and Fire Types used the Sun, but the former were Chlorophyll and the latter SR weak, including the setter. This meant, unlike Rain, they couldn't exploit Weather boosted STABs and the ridiculous speed at the same time, with Venusaur, the prime Chloro sweeper, needing Growth to sweep efficiently. Then pile on that Sun lost spectacularly to the other weathers without specific builds, and it was the one weather that didn't survive the generational transition.

Torterra essentially eats Sand teams and a lot of Rain's sweepers, only fearing a few accompanying Rain mons or the rare Ice Punch/Beam Tyranitar. Counters Excadrill, Tyranitar loses 1v1, Politoed needs Ice Beam or to land Hypnosis to come out on top, and Kabutops can't break him switching in because of Sun and high Phys bulk. It also means Sun could use other Megas besides Zard-Y: Zard-X could use Sun-Boosted Flare Blitz, Altaria can use the Water and opposing Fire types for Set-up, Alakazam can revenge opposing Weather Sweepers if Torterra needs to be saved, to name a few that came to mind.

And finally, the thing to consider: Torterra would be one of the only bulky weather setters, alongside Hippowdon, and his recovery is boosted by his weather, making it easier to recover from certain hits/3HKOs on the switch. That gives him a lot of staying power for the weather war, and makes it easier to get the weather up since he's a bit more capable of switching in and surviving attacks.


The only other one I have an opinion on is Cobalion.

Close Combat for a STAB means Cobalion's not dependent on a weak HP to beat the Steels once it traps them, and its higher Speed means it's not reliant on a Scarf to outspeed and locking itself to a move. Typing also lets it take hits a bit better from the Steels, soaking hits against SD Mega Scizor (though it needs HP Fire to beat it).

0 SpA Cobalion Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 136-160 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I'm a bit tired to think over this one in depth, but I'd hope this one goes to honorable mentions.
 

Patolegend!

Fan of 1000 Arrow 'Slash
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Oh good god, Torterra's finally back!

I loved this idea back on the old threads, because I think it exemplified what Theorymon was trying to do: bring in something that would have an influence on the Metagame. Torterra is almost the perfect Sun Setter on paper: Good Bulk, pretty decent typing for the role (SR resistance!), reliable recovery boosted by its Sun, high BP moves to avoid total passiveness, as well as Leech Seed to exploit forced switches if it changes the weather.

Sun was always the weakest of the 3 prime weathers (lol Hail), because of synergistic problems: Grass and Fire Types used the Sun, but the former were Chlorophyll and the latter SR weak, including the setter. This meant, unlike Rain, they couldn't exploit Weather boosted STABs and the ridiculous speed at the same time, with Venusaur, the prime Chloro sweeper, needing Growth to sweep efficiently. Then pile on that Sun lost spectacularly to the other weathers without specific builds, and it was the one weather that didn't survive the generational transition.

Torterra essentially eats Sand teams and a lot of Rain's sweepers, only fearing a few accompanying Rain mons or the rare Ice Punch/Beam Tyranitar. Counters Excadrill, Tyranitar loses 1v1, Politoed needs Ice Beam or to land Hypnosis to come out on top, and Kabutops can't break him switching in because of Sun and high Phys bulk. It also means Sun could use other Megas besides Zard-Y: Zard-X could use Sun-Boosted Flare Blitz, Altaria can use the Water and opposing Fire types for Set-up, Alakazam can revenge opposing Weather Sweepers if Torterra needs to be saved, to name a few that came to mind.

And finally, the thing to consider: Torterra would be one of the only bulky weather setters, alongside Hippowdon, and his recovery is boosted by his weather, making it easier to recover from certain hits/3HKOs on the switch. That gives him a lot of staying power for the weather war, and makes it easier to get the weather up since he's a bit more capable of switching in and surviving attacks.


The only other one I have an opinion on is Cobalion.

Close Combat for a STAB means Cobalion's not dependent on a weak HP to beat the Steels once it traps them, and its higher Speed means it's not reliant on a Scarf to outspeed and locking itself to a move. Typing also lets it take hits a bit better from the Steels, soaking hits against SD Mega Scizor (though it needs HP Fire to beat it).

0 SpA Cobalion Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 136-160 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I'm a bit tired to think over this one in depth, but I'd hope this one goes to honorable mentions.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Mega Scizor: 292-344 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 148-175 (43.1 - 51%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO

If Scizor doesn't have superpower, it loses. Even if it does, it takes a massive hit and ends up at -1/-1, making it easier to deal with. Cobalion is going to be fitting more on Volt-Turn teams than anything else.

In fact, if Cobalion is a sub set, it loses even more, as the sub takes the superpower and Scizor gets the drops. It really doesn't need HP Fire.
 
Alright so here is my attempt at a FWG core, that would work on a sun team.

+
+
/


Torterra @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock / Stone Edge
- Synthesis

Heatran @ Choice Scarf / Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Stone Edge / Stealth Rock

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 164 SpA / 96 SpD
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Fire Blast
- Power Gem
- Psyshock / Dragon Tail / Ice Beam

OR

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Def / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Acid Spray / Toxic Spikes
- Sludge Bomb


Overview: This FWG core aims to provide a solid back bone to a dedicated Sun team, that deals with the majority of Sun's problems to give plenty of freedom when it comes to selecting wall breakers and sweepers. I couldn't decide which I preferred out of Slowking and Tentacruel so its up to whoever really. Tentacruel has better utility and type synergy, but Slowking has better offensive presence and pivoting ability.

: Torterra is the star of the show, carrying the mandatory Drought necessary for sun to work. Heat Rock extends the duration of Sun for as long as possible, and Defence is maxed out to compensate for lack of leftovers. Its dual STABs as well as defensive typing allows Torterra to take on a remove the Rock and Ground types that give Fire type sun abusers trouble. SR allows Heatran to run Scarf, or you can go with Stone Edge for Edgequake coverage. Torterra covers the Ground and Water weaknesses of Heatran and the Electric weakness of Tentacruel or Slowking. Lastly, Torterra resists SR, helping with one of sun's main problems.

: Offensive Heatran is epic one sun. Firstly it is a great Talonflame check, opening up holes for Chlorophyl sweepers like Venusaur, and secondly it is neutral to SR, which gives some leeway to Fire type wall breakers. Heatran also has amazing defensive type synergy with Torterra, covering all of Torterra's weaknesses perfectly and having its own weaknesses covered too, outside of Fighting. If Torterra is running Stone Edge, you'll be wanting to opt for offensive Air Balloon, as SR is pretty important. Or Torterra can take SR and Heatran Stone Edge, allowing Heatran to better take on Talonflame, and run Choice Scarf. With Choice Scarf and in Sun, Heatran is an epic Wall Breaker and Sweeper, but if you need to run SR you can still wall break like a boss. Heatran also covers at least 1 weakness of which ever Water type you choose to round out the core.

: Slowking was my original choice as a Water type for sun teams as it can run Pseudo STAB Fire Blast to make up for Scald being weakened. It can also of course still fish for Scald Burns or use Scald outside of Sun. Assault Vest allows it to take Special hits for the team like a beast whilst putting out respectable damage with whatever coverage you choose. Slowking also provides the previously lacking Fighting resist for Heatran, and acts as a strong pivot thanks to Regenerator.
/
: Tentacruel I also figured could be a great addition as even while Sun is active, Scald is still useful, and it has a secondary STAB which it can utilities too. It has strong base SpD so it can still take a couple Special hits for the team here and there. The main reasons you would use Tentacruel over Slowking are its access to Rapid Spin, and better defensive typing synergy. With Torterra, Heatran and Tentacruel, all weaknesses are accounted for, but with Slowking you have a Dark and Ghost weakness. Also Toxic Spikes are nice.

Basically; We have a strong Talonflame counter, no weaknesses to SR (Rapid Spin support too if you choose Tentacruel), a strong defensive back bone, and a solid offensive presence (Particularly with Slowking). So feel free to run you Venusaur without being paranoid of Talon, and enjoy stacking as many hazard weak wall breakers as you like. Also note that the core doesn't use up your mega slot which means you still have access to lots of goodies like Zard X, Houndoom, and Diancie.
 
Ight so i did my obligatory Ground mon post and now i think i should post bout something else....to be nice and all (i have my priorities, sue me)


Basically Cobal and Tor (long live Yum!!!) are getting the attention and are loved, but im just gonna talk little on those damn gears cause i feel like it.

Its a sweeping Technician user who doesnt actually rely on priority. Our other users (Bre, M/Sciz, and i guess M-Aboma in theory but ignore the gentle yeti) can deal lot of power but get screwed over by something that drives em near nuts. Breloom never has enough moveslots for what it does sometimes and is left with a horrid defensive typing. Sciz can nuke with the best but Steel as the offensive move can be such a liability when the team is carrying faster waters and electrics who can scare him (fire types too if ya want and steels, and yada).

Kling is able to abuse some fairly decent coverage with bull, gear, and an HP of choice all while boosting speed and attack. He doesnt need to rely on priority like the other two as he can just go up two speed levels, and hit for quite a pretty bit. A speedy boosting technician user is weird and different to say the least.

Anyway, felt like posting there bout him. Dont want to expand much more, but the guy is able to do a cool niche in being a speedyish bosting technician user. I still wont be voting for him but wanted to mention it just cause.
 
I think people are blowing the 8 pp of Synthesis out of proportion. Sure it's a little bit of an issue, but gaining back 72% (with lefties) in one turn is still incredible, and gives Torterra a bit of leeway.
Gaining back at maximum 72% with lefties (66% + 6% but you don't want Leftovers but Heat Rock) is really huge BUT:
(1) if Politoed/Tyranitar/Hippodown (or the rare Abomasnow) switch-in, your recovery is hindered so much that you have to switch-out and then back into the battlefield to set up Sun again ===> huge tempo loss (the same problem if you click Synthesis on Mega-Venu);
(2) you have to use almost all of your EVs on Torterra's HP and Def (plus a -SAtk;+Def nature) to make use of his bulk and of Synthesis at full extent (at least that spread of
252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def, Impish Nature suggested by Isa Simple makes the tortoise difficul to be OHKOed by Politoed/Tyranitar and something else).

Torterra is not bad by any means (I preferred the runner-up Drought Virizion but Trace Virizion was even stronger), but seems that it will be used to set-up sun, then click Synthesis to refuel its HP and switch-out, repeat the process until it die thanks to its poor speed.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Torterra has a pretty nice matchupagainst all of those weather setters. At the very least, they don't want to come in.
 
Torterra, Impish nature, 252 HP 4 Atk 252 Def vs:
(1) Support Politoed with Ice Beam switching-in
(2a) Tyranitar OU Dragon Dance switching-in
(2b) Mega T-Tar switching-in
(3) Hippodown OU mixed wall switching-in
(4) Abomasnow RU All Out attacker switching-in

(1) 4 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 356-420 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO if Politoed switchs-in but Wood Hammer has recoil and in the Rain Synthesis is bad (and still 8 PP)
0 SpA Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO + Wood Hammer recoil (at least 30%)
==> Torterra can easily win or barely win with less than 20% HP left and is forced out in Rain without using Synthesis

(2a) 4 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Earthquake does less, 63.3 - 74.4%)
252 Atk Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 236-280 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO + Wood Hammer recoil (at least 25%)
==> Torterra wins with 40-30% HP left with a previous Earthquake or 15/4% HP left with Wood Hammer recoil and the sandstorm is up ===> it can't use Synthesis in sand and is forced out

(2b) 4 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Earthquake does less: 85.5% chance to 2HKO)
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO + Wood Hammer recoil (at least 19,3%)
==> Torterra wins with Mega T-Tar switching-in on Wood Hammer/Earthquake with 10 % HP left at maximum with the previous Wood Hammer or 30% HP left with a previous Earthquake and the sandstorm is up ===> it can't use Synthesis in sand and is forced out

(3) ok, 4 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 198-234 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
the best Hippowdown can do is to click "Toxic" and forcing Torterra out from sand

(4) Torterra 2HKO Abomasnow with Stone Edge; OHKO if crits (P.S. Mega-Abomasnow is always 2HKOed by a critical hit from Stone Edge) but the Tortoise can miss or can mispredict the Abomasnow switch-in
Abomasnow OHKO back with Blizzard
==> Torterra can lose but Abomasnow is not OU ==> one less threat

To summarize, Torterra has a workable match-up with the OU weather setters on the switch but the calcs consider only the best move Torterra can use towards them because the tortoise's poor speed forced you to rely on prediction agaist the opponent's checks/counters (what if you click Wood Hammer and your opponent switches-in a 4x grass resistant pokemon?) but, at least, the EVs spread enables it to survive from some 4x SE physical hits.
 
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Torterra, Impish nature, 252 HP 4 Atk 252 Def vs:
(1) Support Politoed with Ice Beam switching-in
(2a) Tyranitar OU Dragon Dance switching-in
(2b) Mega T-Tar switching-in
(3) Hippodown OU mixed wall switching-in
(4) Abomasnow RU All Out attacker switching-in

(1) 4 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 356-420 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO if Politoed switchs-in but Wood Hammer has recoil and in the Rain Synthesis is bad (and still 8 PP)
0 SpA Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO + Wood Hammer recoil (at least 30%)
==> Torterra can easily win or barely win with less than 20% HP left and is forced out in Rain without using Synthesis

(2a) 4 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Earthquake does less, 63.3 - 74.4%)
252 Atk Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 236-280 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO + Wood Hammer recoil (at least 25%)
==> Torterra wins with 40-30% HP left with a previous Earthquake or 15/4% HP left with Wood Hammer recoil and the sandstorm is up ===> it can't use Synthesis in sand and is forced out

(2b) 4 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Earthquake does less: 85.5% chance to 2HKO)
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torterra: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO + Wood Hammer recoil (at least 19,3%)
==> Torterra wins with Mega T-Tar switching-in on Wood Hammer/Earthquake with 10 % HP left at maximum with the previous Wood Hammer or 30% HP left with a previous Earthquake and the sandstorm is up ===> it can't use Synthesis in sand and is forced out

(3) ok, 4 Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 198-234 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
the best Hippowdown can do is to click "Toxic" and forcing Torterra out from sand

(4) Torterra 2HKO Abomasnow with Stone Edge; OHKO if crits (P.S. Mega-Abomasnow is always 2HKOed by a critical hit from Stone Edge) but the Tortoise can miss or can mispredict the Abomasnow switch-in
Abomasnow OHKO back with Blizzard
==> Torterra can lose but Abomasnow is not OU ==> one less threat

To summarize, Torterra has a workable match-up with the OU weather setters on the switch but the calcs consider only the best move Torterra can use towards them because the tortoise's poor speed forced you to rely on prediction agaist the opponent's checks/counters (what if you click Wood Hammer and your opponent switches-in a 4x grass resistant pokemon?) but, at least, the EVs spread enables it to survive from some 4x SE physical hits.
If I'm playing rain I'm most likely not going to switch my weather setter in on Torterra, because letting my weather setter get OHKO'd after rocks is pretty much an autolose. Same with Tyranitar and Hippo. Hippo can't actually do anything back and Ttar is strapped for moveslots as is on Band/Scarf and may not always carry Ice Punch. Also if I'm playing sun with Torterra I'll most likely have a Scarftran or something like that to deal with Ttar. No one uses Abomasnow in OU and why would I leave Torterra in lol.

Also 75% recovery with Synthesis in Sun + 6% Lefties is 81% health back
 

Patolegend!

Fan of 1000 Arrow 'Slash
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
If I'm playing rain I'm most likely not going to switch my weather setter in on Torterra, because letting my weather setter get OHKO'd after rocks is pretty much an autolose. Same with Tyranitar and Hippo. Hippo can't actually do anything back and Ttar is strapped for moveslots as is on Band/Scarf and may not always carry Ice Punch. Also if I'm playing sun with Torterra I'll most likely have a Scarftran or something like that to deal with Ttar. No one uses Abomasnow in OU and why would I leave Torterra in lol.

Also 75% recovery with Synthesis in Sun + 6% Lefties is 81% health back
*66% in sun + 6% lefties is 72% back. Still good though!
 
Klinklang + Technician + Bulldoze: Hmmm, I am not sure why we need another set-up sweeper who also gets Technician to abuse its main STAB. Sure, it's coverage isn't great but Steel + Electric + Ground is workable and it also doesn't take much from priority moves (except Mach Punch / Vacuum Wave).

Torterra + Drought: This would have been good if the meta is still centred around weather wars but in the current meta, having a good match-up against weather teams / sweepers isn't a niche that people look for in a team slot (except Mega Alakazam but it's also used for other reasons). Furthermore, Torterra compounds the weakness to Fire types because most Chlorophyll sweepers share the same Grass typing and is also vulnerable to Talonflame. While it's supposed to beat Water-types, Torterra also hates Scald and Icy Wind / Ice Beam that Water-types commonly carry. Weather sweepers such as Keldeo, Thundurus and Tornadus also has Icy Wind / Hidden Power Ice / Hurricane which again does a lot to Torterra. In fact, the only Rain sweeper Torterra beats is Kabutops (it doesn't win against Swampert because of Ice Punch) . Gaining 66% HP back by Synthesis is nice but like Hippo, it is immensely pressured to recover to check threats. A boost to Sun teams is nice but I feel it's a bit overrated here.

Cobalion + Magnet Pull: This is like Sub Charge Magnezone but much better. It has a great typing which causes Steel types struggle to damage it and Sub means it can now avoid Status moves while setting up. It also has 108 Speed which means it is decently fast and carries moves such as Close Combat, Iron Head, Stone Edge, Taunt, and Volt Switch. Fits nicely on Offensive teams and makes Steel-types a liability.

Mismagius + Electric-typing: So we basically have a Rotom with higher Speed and has access to Nasty Plot, Taunt and Destiny Bond. Mismagius also has better coverage moves than Rotom and the higher Speed means it can use Choice items better. Mismagius's movepool is also much better than Rotom, which is a plus. However, it's Speed still leaves it outpaced by Talonflame, Tornadus-T and other Pokemon it wants to check. It's SpA also isn't that high.
 

Patolegend!

Fan of 1000 Arrow 'Slash
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
So, looks like discussion's died down for now, so you all know what time it is!

Yes, it's time for voting! Please remember to bold your votes so it makes it easier to add up!
Here are your options:

+ Technician and Bulldoze (Credit to Brawl MK )
+ Drought (Credit to YouAreOutOfMy5 )
+ Magnet Pull
+ Electric / Ghost and Volt Switch

Here are the list of honorable mentions you can vote for!

- Infernape + Prankster
- Tornadus + Competitive
- Noivern + Nasty Plot
- Umbreon + Unaware
- Typhlosion + Drought
- Spiritomb + Dark Aura
- Glalie + Dragon Dance
- Mega Tyranitar + Sand Force
- Umbreon + Magic Bounce
- Mega Garchomp + Weak Armor
- Jolteon + Spikes
- Ghost / Fighting Mega Banette + Drain Punch
- Mega Camerupt + Desolate Land
- Thick Fat Gogoat
- Electric / Dark Thundurus-T:

Have fun and good luck to the submissions!
(my vote)
Cobalion + Magnet Pull

Honorable Mention: Mega Camerupt + Desolate Land

P.S. Have mercy on the new guy, please PM me if I've missed off any of the honorable mentions :]
 

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