Resource RU Viability Ranking Thread: Abomasnow and Slowking Discussion

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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Imo I really don't like the new ranking system. It really differenciate itself from other VR threads, and I think makes things more confusing, combining a A+ and a A mon together, without any extensive explanations. I feel like the old system should be brought back into place for clarity and to be more detailed, than just saying it's "too subjective".

Spirit edit: The purpose is to take less focus off of ranking semantics in addition to lessening subjectivity, not so much because it was too subjective. Please read the post where this was clarified more thoroughly.
 
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My only complaint is that the C rank seems way too crowded, and that a third sub-rank there would be nice to make the list seem less scrunched. Other than that, the list seems very accurate, except for Mola in A+, nice job guys :)
 
Double post but whatev

To D/C:
Seriously, why isn't this here already? Not only is it one of the better Glalie and Sneasel checks/counters, it also checks/counters Delphox, Houndoom, Sigilyph, Venomoth(provided something else is asleep), Camerupt etc. Plus Miltank also has reliable recovery with Milk Drink, cool utility in T-Wave, Heal Bell, and Stealth Rock, and with 100 base speed, uninvested you outspeed adamant Emboar and modest Exploud, being able to either finish them off when weakened or cripple them for the match with T-Wave. Granted it is M-Steelix bait, but even then I still think Miltank should be somewhere in the rankings, when it can check plenty of top tier mons and stay healthy throughout the match. I would honestly shoot for C+, but let's start with D or C, because it isn't ranked yet.
 
Double post but whatev

To D/C:
Seriously, why isn't this here already? Not only is it one of the better Glalie and Sneasel checks/counters, it also checks/counters Delphox, Houndoom, Sigilyph, Venomoth(provided something else is asleep), Camerupt etc. Plus Miltank also has reliable recovery with Milk Drink, cool utility in T-Wave, Heal Bell, and Stealth Rock, and with 100 base speed, uninvested you outspeed adamant Emboar and modest Exploud, being able to either finish them off when weakened or cripple them for the match with T-Wave. Granted it is M-Steelix bait, but even then I still think Miltank should be somewhere in the rankings, when it can check plenty of top tier mons and stay healthy throughout the match. I would honestly shoot for C+, but let's start with D or C, because it isn't ranked yet.
Pretty much everything in C fits through, except for Muk:
Seriously, what's his utility here, i just don't get it, it's a mediocre pokemon, why would i ever use it?
If anyone has an explanation for it to be ranked, please tell me, otherwise unrank it: I think we all acknowledge that Muk kind of is a shitty pokemon, but then again idk it's niche so if it has one, tell me.
 
muk compresses a few significant roles, including tspike absorber, venomoth / tangrowth check, and scrafty check (being immune to knock off, bulky to the point of avoiding most significant ko's from coverage, and koing in turn at about a 75% rate w/cb gunk shot after sr dmg). it's natural cohesion w/stuff like momo allow for it to play an extended role quite feasibly, and its more active offensive presence separate it notably from stuff that would otherwise fill a similar role, such as amoonguss. in spite of being qwilfish bait, slow for a beater even by ru standards, and so forth, it does retain some notable and useful qualities that make it worthwhile in the tier at this time.
 
Mr Mime for a rank pls.

After using Mr.Mime for a while it has been a real revelation. First off, its ability in soundproof lets it stop Exploud and Meloetta from Mindlessly clicking their normal type stab moves. It also beats the mono attacking venomoth sets. It has a fair bit of versatility and nice special bulk and a bearable offensive special attack. It has enough coverage in the form of Focus Blast, Dazzling gleam and psyshock. It also has some decent utility moves like Healing Wish. Furthermore, its scarf set (which I like a lot) can revenge a lot of mons including the likes of Scrafty. I really like Mr.Mime aka Mr.Meme as a sort of anti meta threat which can check some top tier mons or at the very least stop them from clicking their obligatory stab move.
 
At least until Venomoth (hopefully) gets banned, I feel as though Escavalier should be A+ rank. Being able to switch into Venomoth while avoiding sleep AND being 2HKO'd is amazing, and makes it probably the premier Venomoth check on both offense, balance, and semi-stall. Not to mention that in general this thing is both powerful and incredibly bulky with AV, checking Glalie, Meloetta, Virizion, Tangrowth not locked into HP Fire, Rotom-M, and more, meaning it will always be able to pull its weight even if Venomoth isn't being run by the opponent. Finally with Wish support, this thing can be incredibly hard to take out completely, while with Mega Steelix as a partner, Venomoth has virtually no chance of sweeping.

So yeah until Moth goes Escavalier should probably be A+.

EDIT @ below: Rotom-C was actually something I wanted to bring up... A drop to B+ is definitely warranted right now. Scarf hates Steelix / Flygon being some common, bulky sets are (for the most part) outclassed by Tangrowth, and specs is kinda shit. Defintiely not in the ranks of Hitmonlee, Qwilfish, Delphox etc.
 
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Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Esca is a pretty lackluster mon outside of checking Venomoth, Glalie, and Meloetta, and only the AV set can really be said to reliably check either special attacker. It doesn't really check a Virizion that's set up and it's not like Viriz is switching into so I'm unsure where that comparison is from. It takes a large chunk from everything it checks as well, so even with Wish support it can be incredibly difficult to maintain. Several mons it checks can carry coverage to hit it on the switch in (Tangrowth especially has minimal trouble fitting in HP Fire on offensive or AV movesets), and it then gets stuck in a Pursuit/Attack mindgame that's really not overwhelmingly in it's favor. The fact that +1 LO Bug Buzz can 2HKO Esca while Esca can miss the OHKO back (after LO Recoil) with Iron Head just makes it more difficult for me to feel a raise is justified. Running Pursuit, which is imo mandatory right now, means either dropping Knock Off or Drill Run, which makes it harder for you to find room to be useful against teams that aren't based around Melo/Moth. Everything it checks can find room to punish it on the switch in. IMO it's fine in A.
 
I don't know, maybe it's just because I like building bulkier teams, but I've been finding it difficult to build without Escavalier recently. It's really dangerous to run Mega Steelix as your only switch in, as there's a very high chance it will be checking a very large number of Pokemon for your team, and having it put to sleep will both prevent it from doing anything back to the threats it's supposed to switch into and from setting up Stealth Rock, which is important for (surprise) Venomoth. The only other viable Pokemon that can switch into Sleep Powder are Grass-types, and none of them want to take a Bug Buzz / Sludge Bomb. I think the ability to check not only Venomoth, but two cream-of-the-crop A+ mons in Glalie and Meloetta, is an amazing quality for a Pokemon with a good offensive presence to have.

I also disagree with you that it's difficult to maintain with Wish support, as a great typing and good bulk, it's not extremely difficult to switch in and heal up in MUs where its defensive capabilities will usually be needed the longest. Even without Wish support it's bulk, when combined with AV, is still usually good enough to take the hits it need to from offensive mons.

Finally, while LO Bug Buzz does have a good chance to 2HKO after SR, Iron Head will almost always be KOing, considering any damage from Stealth Rock / Spikes will put LO Venomoth in KO range. Even if Veno doesn't take any SR damage and wins both rolls to kill Escavalier, Venomoth is still dead, which is still pretty good considering it's the best Venomoth is going to get.

I think its main disadvantages are that it can sometimes find itself getting overwhelmed easy vs offense, 4MSS, and the fact it can get walled decently easily. Because of this it might be best to just hold off on discussing the nomination until after the suspect test (where if Venomoth does get banned, Escavlier is definitely not A+ rank.)
 
Might get shamed for this
Nomination:
Delphox A->A+/S

Okay so going through the viability rankings and tier itself, Delphox has no true counters bar Houndoom (and Mega Audino if you'd really wanna use your mega slot on that). Anything that could possibly switch in to its STABs can take massive damage from a coverage move that it usually runs. While not the highest in the tier, 114 SpA and 104 Spe is pretty solid stats for RU. Offensive checks are plenty but the switch in game doesn't really exist. Between Fire Blast, Psychic/Psyshock, Grass Knot, and Dazzling Gleam it can hit potential counters like Toad, Scrafty and Gastrodon super effectively. By the definition of a counter, it takes on the same role the Kyurem-B and Hoopa have in OU, with potential coverage for nothing to safely counter.

Next idea, style-breaking.

Slap a scarf on it, and it can easily dismantle offensive teams, outspeeding most things but of course missing out on a couple OHKOs and stuff. Still, wearing down an offense team makes it a horrifying cleaner when whatever defensive options are worn down. Outspeeding Flygon and Hitmontop is also a great revenge killing option with Psychic and/ or Dazzling Gleam and is a nice option for hazard stacking teams. Hazard Stack + Delphox (haven't really tried it) sounds like a nightmare for offense in general.

Next, Life Orb or Choice Specs boosting 114 SpAtk, the 6th highest in the entire tier (bc Mega Glalie's 120 doesn't matter), can allow it to dismantle defensive cores with its coverage. Hell, Switcheroo can neuter a fat mon that it usually couldn't handle. Plus, even unboosted it sits at base 104 Spe, making it more useful in matchups vs fast offenses unlike Mega Cam or Clawitzer. Even SubCM sets can surprise and damage defensive cores by forcing attacks.

So basically what I'm saying is that you can mold Delphox to match up well vs Offense or Balance, whichever your team needs. Might expand later, short on time rn
 
Might get shamed for this
Nomination:
Delphox A->A+/S

Okay so going through the viability rankings and tier itself, Delphox has no true counters bar Houndoom (and Mega Audino if you'd really wanna use your mega slot on that). Anything that could possibly switch in to its STABs can take massive damage from a coverage move that it usually runs. While not the highest in the tier, 114 SpA and 104 Spe is pretty solid stats for RU. Offensive checks are plenty but the switch in game doesn't really exist. Between Fire Blast, Psychic/Psyshock, Grass Knot, and Dazzling Gleam it can hit potential counters like Toad, Scrafty and Gastrodon super effectively. By the definition of a counter, it takes on the same role the Kyurem-B and Hoopa have in OU, with potential coverage for nothing to safely counter.

Next idea, style-breaking.

Slap a scarf on it, and it can easily dismantle offensive teams, outspeeding most things but of course missing out on a couple OHKOs and stuff. Still, wearing down an offense team makes it a horrifying cleaner when whatever defensive options are worn down. Outspeeding Flygon and Hitmontop is also a great revenge killing option with Psychic and/ or Dazzling Gleam and is a nice option for hazard stacking teams. Hazard Stack + Delphox (haven't really tried it) sounds like a nightmare for offense in general.

Next, Life Orb or Choice Specs boosting 114 SpAtk, the 6th highest in the entire tier (bc Mega Glalie's 120 doesn't matter), can allow it to dismantle defensive cores with its coverage. Hell, Switcheroo can neuter a fat mon that it usually couldn't handle. Plus, even unboosted it sits at base 104 Spe, making it more useful in matchups vs fast offenses unlike Mega Cam or Clawitzer. Even SubCM sets can surprise and damage defensive cores by forcing attacks.

So basically what I'm saying is that you can mold Delphox to match up well vs Offense or Balance, whichever your team needs. Might expand later, short on time rn
A little fact: Delphox was considered S rank at the beginning stages of XY RU. The thing that set Delphox back the most is its physical frailty, which has it struggle against stuff like Aqua Jet and Acrobatics. The fact that its Fire typing leaves it weak to Ground and Rock attacks, which mostly come from physical attackers, make it kind of hard to find a switch opportunity sometimes. It's Psychic typing happens to leave it weak to Dark-type attacks, which means it usually will be heavily crippled by Sucker Punch and Pursuit. The deal with Scarf and Specs is that it can be played around, usually by switching in to a resisted hit and taking advantage of that (which requires prediction on its own, but you get my point). Life Orb makes Delphox be even worn down crazy faster, leaving it even more susceptible to faster stuff. I do agree with the fact that Delphox is a pretty good wallbreaker, with the raw power and its coverage and that. As of now I think Delphox is OK in A, although I wouldn't disagree if it were to be moved to A+.

(e) here's a bit more orderly way of putting what I tried to say:
Delphox is one of RarelyUsed's most potent wallbreakers thanks to its high base 110 Special Attack. Its base 104 Speed lets Delphox outspeed several of RarelyUsed's powerful attackers, apart from a few exceptions such as Durant and Virizion. Due to its offensively oriented base stats, Delphox can use Choice items, Life Orb, and even Berries with Substitute effectively. Thanks to its Fire / Psychic typing, Delphox has key resistances to Grass-, Fairy-, and Fighting-type attacks. On the downside, Delphox receives extra damage from Stealth Rock which, combined with its low physical bulk, makes it struggle against Dark-type attacks such as Sucker Punch and Pursuit. Houndoom is particularly troubling for Delphox, as it competes with Delphox for a teamslot as a wallbreaker, checks a majority of Delphox's sets, and is able to Pursuit trap Delphox in a face off. Conversely, Delphox has higher defensive stats, resists Fighting-type attacks, and additionally, its coverage deals with certain defensive Pokemon such as specially defensive Flygon and Alomomola.
 
Delphox also really struggles with residual damage - between Stealth Rock, Spikes, Life Orb, and possible Substitute damage, it's very easy to put Delphox in a position where it either dies to priority or dies to hazard damage when it switches in again. Also, while Houndoom may be the only truly safe offensive switch in, it's a damn good one at that, and it's very common in the tier currently. It also Pursuit traps Delphox for literally free. Because of this, Delphox has to be played with aggressive double switching, and even if Delphox does get a kill, it's immediately revenge killed by Houndoom.

Of course, being an extremely powerful and decently fast wallbreaker is nothing to scoff at, so I wouldn't really be opposed with it going to A+. This thing is either a top A or a low A+ mon regardless so I don't think it's too big of a deal which one it's in.
 
A little fact: Delphox was considered S rank at the beginning stages of XY RU. The thing that set Delphox back the most is its physical frailty, which has it struggle against stuff like Aqua Jet and Acrobatics. The fact that its Fire typing leaves it weak to Ground and Rock attacks, which mostly come from physical attackers, make it kind of hard to find a switch opportunity sometimes. It's Psychic typing happens to leave it weak to Dark-type attacks, which means it usually will be heavily crippled by Sucker Punch and Pursuit. The deal with Scarf and Specs is that it can be played around, usually by switching in to a resisted hit and taking advantage of that (which requires prediction on its own, but you get my point). Life Orb makes Delphox be even worn down crazy faster, leaving it even more susceptible to faster stuff. I do agree with the fact that Delphox is a pretty good wallbreaker, with the raw power and its coverage and that. As of now I think Delphox is OK in A, although I wouldn't disagree if it were to be moved to A+.

(e) here's a bit more orderly way of putting what I tried to say:
Good way of wording it a lot better. The thing I'm thinking now is that a lot of mons get worn down quickly, a great example is weavile or Bisharp in OU. They remain top tier threats for breaking offensive cores. Maybe S would be pushing it in hindsight, but it is a pretty similar threat compared to Kyu-b in OU, with coverage moves for pretty much all counters. I've been liking it a lot recently and its counters I've found are dodging fire blasts lol
 
MAGNETON C->B This pokemon is very good at this tier with a good amount of special attack can defeat things like Togetic and Omastar has Abilities like analytic and magnet pull which become very useful either to catch steels or hit with a brutal power , You can also hold up well to hit with Eviolite , It can be used in many ways either Eviolite Choice Scarf or Choice Specs.
 

Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I would support a rise to C+ for Magneton if it wasn't already there. It's an excellent partner for Venomoth - Magnet Pull can trap Escavalier and it pressures stuff like Golbat while being a decent pivot to help Moth get in, but double/triple ground cores are fairly common and are pretty nasty for it which makes Analytic, the MUCH better ability if you're not specifically trying to trap Escavalier, kind of lame. Without Magnet Rise or the right hidden power it outright loses to every Ground-type switch-in except Flygon, without specs and HP Fire it doesn't actually threaten Escavalier. I think it's fine where it is. Magneton should stay C+.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
Okay, so it's been a week:

Smeargle:

This fits nicely in B+ or maybe A. While by no means a bad Pokemon, it's far from consistent and has a significant number of flaws that either make it so that it gives too many free turns to dangerous setup sweepers or it has difficulty keeping hazards down. Baton Pass sets are very match up reliant from my experience and fairly inconsistent, and Trick Room Smeargle are just super gimmicky in general. Good Pokemon with a fair bit of surprise value and it's nice that RU has a decent mon that can set up webs now, but it's nothing special.

Leavanny/Kricketune:

Unrank. I think both of these lose their niche with Smeargle in RU now. Having both webs and rocks is what frees team building for webs teams and allows them to be somewhat consistent, which neither Kricketune nor Leavanny can claim to do. They've also been fairly mediocre for a while now so this is the final nail in the coffin I suppose.

Gothitelle:

Fairly bad as was expected. It doesn't really have a valuable niche that makes it worth using. I'm thinking of just leaving this unranked or putting it in E until it inevitably drops to NU or moves back up to OU, whichever is first.

Would like some discussion on the above three before I update the list. Thanks.
 
Gothitelle:

Fairly bad as was expected. It doesn't really have a valuable niche that makes it worth using. I'm thinking of just leaving this unranked or putting it in E until it inevitably drops to NU or moves back up to OU, whichever is first.

Would like some discussion on the above three before I update the list. Thanks.
So yeah this is fairly accurate, but i have found a "niche" that it can use, and that is with Defensive CM Mean Look. Moves- CM, Mean Look, Rest/Heal Bell, Psychic/Psyshock. Item- Chesto Berry/Lefties. this set can set up on walls such as mola, aroma, amoongus, and potentially defensive hitmontop. yes ik this is not a good or decent niche and very circumstantial for it but it is the ONLY psychic type that can pull this type of strategy off, which is why id like it to be in D Rank but if this niche isn't "good" enough or too bad to be D Rank, than yeah it can be E Rank or unranked until it drops.
 
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termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
So yeah this is fairly accurate, but i have found a "niche" that it can use, and that is with Defensive CM Mean Look. Moves- CM, Mean Look, Rest/Heal Bell, Psychic/Psyshock. Item- Chesto Berry/Lefties. this set can set up on walls such as mola, aroma, amoongus, and potentially defensive hitmontop. yes ik this is not a good or decent niche and very circumstantial for it but it is the ONLY psychic type that can pull this type of strategy off, which is why id like it to be in D Rank but if this niche isn't "good" enough or too bad to be D Rank, than yeah it can be E Rank or unranked until it drops.
Nobody is gonna just let their hitmontop or amoonguss stay in on gothitelle, meaning it can't trap them with mean look. There's a reason why you don't see mean look in a competitive environment, it never really works.
 
Mean Look has been a thing on very specific mons in older metas tho this is just nitpicking, gothitelle is utter trash and mean look is not a niche to justify it being user over other mons (so basically what fagtron said)
 
Nobody is gonna just let their hitmontop or amoonguss stay in on gothitelle, meaning it can't trap them with mean look. There's a reason why you don't see mean look in a competitive environment, it never really works.
I have seen some good ubers players (Problems, for example) using stuff like Lefties Block Geomancy Rest Xerneas (set up on support Arceus formes and win) and making it work and I can find you replays of it. However, I've never seen it work outside ubers so I have to agree on this case.
 
The Block/Mean Look setup thing requires the user to be able to set up on the wall switching *in*. None of those pokemon are likely to switch into Gothitelle. I feel like the most common switchins to Goth would be Escavalier, Drapion, Mega Steelix, Tomb, Bronzong, and Scrafty, and none of those let Goth set up except Bronzong (and even that sometimes carries Explosion)

edit: sorry for piling on you Mar1onette!
 

lighthouses

Inordinary
is a Tiering Contributor
Kabutops C > B+

Hazard removal on this tier sucks and i find lum berry kabutops to be pretty dang reliable tbh, it doesn't let venomoth setup, has knock off and aqua jet is really sexy.
And as far as competition goes i can only see it being outclassed by hitmonlee(kinda) as a spinner for more offensive teams, c is too low D:
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
updates:

Smeargle added to B+
Bronzong down to B+
Gothitelle added to E
Kricketune Unranked
Leavanny Unranked

needs more discussion:

Kabutops
Delphox

discussion points:

Tyrantrum back up to S or stay in A+
Meloetta up to S or stay in A+ (really considering this now)
 
Poliwrath to B+
With a set of Scald / Circle Throw + RestTalk (or Protect and Toxic on more offensive teams) and a bulky spread it is an amazing check to Pokemon such as Steelix, Durant, Tyrantrum, Houndoom, Escavalier, Rhyperior, Sneasel and a decent soft answer to Emboar, Scrafty, and Mega Glalie (you murder Freeze Dry-less variants) which is kinda amazing considering they can be a real pain in the ass to deal with for balance / slowish bulky offense. The fact that it isn't passive or setup fodder for anything since it has Circle Throw (also nice since Rotom-C and stuff like Tangrowth even like to come into bulky Water-types for free) and Scald is also quite good imo so the small bump from B is totally justified.

Outside of Steelix's popularity (not to mention it wins the award for the most easily worn down Pokemon in RU) Tyrantrum is just an amazing Pokemon and the coverage it gets against all of the top offensive Pokemon makes it really a force to be reckoned with and for offense it is really a bitch to handle later in the game. The fact that it also kinda caused a drop in popularity of Emboar as the Choice Scarf user of choice (just because this outruns it) and that it can do well against the premiere Speed-boosting sweeper in the tier, Scrafty, with Superpower and that it handles another annoying Pokemon for offense in Fletchinder makes it a top notch Pokemon that deserves S rank.

So
OP said:
S RANK:
The best of the best. Reserved for Pokemon who shape and define the RU metagame and are a clear-cut above the rest of the tier. These Pokemon are typically very powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for or are phenomenal support and defensive threats that provide significant utility or defensive potential, respectively. Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
The only think Tyrantrum lacks that is mentioned here is the versatility to a degree but i would blame it on opportunity cost of not running Choice Scarf more than anything since Rock Polish per se is a good set and Choice Band is an overkill wallbreaker.

No particular opinion on Meloetta but it clearly has the stats and versatility to make the cut to be S rank but i don't see it being as influential as Tyrantrum atm
 

lighthouses

Inordinary
is a Tiering Contributor
Meloetta is extremely centralizing in my opinion
Unless you're running super heavy offense you have to either
-Run escavalier
-Run spiriomb/houndoom/skuntank(lol)/pursuit sneasel/spD;pursuit drapion
And they are all ohkoed by a move except for drapion and skuntank(lol²)
If drapion is spD then it lacks pursuit, it's extremely easy to wear down, if it has pursuit you have to win a 5050 like all the others.
The most damage you're doing to meloetta with pursuit if you lose the 5050 is this:
220 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 159-190 (46.6 - 55.7%) -- 73% chance to 2HKO
So basically you win a lot of coinflips with mons that cant even switch into it or you'll most likely lose a mon just to bring a revenge killer in or something.
Not to mention that people don't realize how stupid is a meloetta that can actually switch up moves(calm mind colbur offensive melo for one is REALLY dumb)
So basically run escavalier and hope for the best xd
S imo
 
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