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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
- Start date
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p2
Banned deucer.
This one has been bugging me for a while
Shaymin to C / C+
Alright, I don't get how this thing is so low, its one of two Grass types that can actually fulfill a hit-and-run role, the other being Mega Sceptile though its a mega and it's ass. Celebi can't function the same as it wants Nasty Plot to force switches in the same way and Serperior is too weak unboosted to pose the same kind of threat, Serp also lacks bulk meaning that it struggles to take a bunch of neutral or even strong resisted attacks. Against balance builds, Shaymin is fucking scary, being able to bullshit its way past nearly everything in the tier with Seed Flare and its huge offensive movepool coupled with amazing recovery in Natural Cure + Rest, which gives Shaymin stupid longevity and makes it really annoying for balance to handle it, let alone switch in. Offense doesn't like this thing either because Seed Flare hits insanely hard and the SpD drop is just a complete killer for anything slower. It also likes stuff rising in usage like Suicune which it has an amazing matchup against those kind of teams as they all struggle to handle the coverage coupled with SpD drops. I don't know what Shaymin is doing in C- of all places and it deserves to move up, I'd honestly nom it up to B-, but that's kinda pushing it.
Shaymin to C / C+
Alright, I don't get how this thing is so low, its one of two Grass types that can actually fulfill a hit-and-run role, the other being Mega Sceptile though its a mega and it's ass. Celebi can't function the same as it wants Nasty Plot to force switches in the same way and Serperior is too weak unboosted to pose the same kind of threat, Serp also lacks bulk meaning that it struggles to take a bunch of neutral or even strong resisted attacks. Against balance builds, Shaymin is fucking scary, being able to bullshit its way past nearly everything in the tier with Seed Flare and its huge offensive movepool coupled with amazing recovery in Natural Cure + Rest, which gives Shaymin stupid longevity and makes it really annoying for balance to handle it, let alone switch in. Offense doesn't like this thing either because Seed Flare hits insanely hard and the SpD drop is just a complete killer for anything slower. It also likes stuff rising in usage like Suicune which it has an amazing matchup against those kind of teams as they all struggle to handle the coverage coupled with SpD drops. I don't know what Shaymin is doing in C- of all places and it deserves to move up, I'd honestly nom it up to B-, but that's kinda pushing it.
Okay, so I'm thinking at this point that the argument to push Hoopa-U down from S to A+ is pretty solid, but I'd like to see what people think of putting it down as low as A. Don't get me wrong, this thing is still an absolute monster that puts a huge damper on defensive teams, but it's total ass in the current meta.
First of all, I'll just go ahead and beat the dead horse a bit and list all the flaws this thing has. The average speed is fair enough against stall and bulkier teams, but seriously struggles against anything offensive . Additionally, while it's bulk is on the same level as Latias's, the total lack of resistances makes it nearly useless defensively. In the currently offensive meta, you'll notice almost everything either has some sort of defensive value or do extremely well against offense through offensive coverage, priority, or pure speed. Hoopa-U has none of these qualities. What you end up with is a mon that, despite its otherwise reasonable bulk, can't switch into most offensive mons. It's also unable to outrun most mons on offense, making it incapable of actually having a presence in most matches. Most matches with Hoopa-U against offense tends to end up with Hoopa-U coming in through either a sack or a slow switch, throwing out one attack, and then either being forced out and sacked later or dying on the spot. As a result, it's really difficult to build with this thing, since it offers no synergy with its team and requires a fair amount of team support to work as well. Now obviously once it gets in there's very few answers to it, but honestly any wallbreaker that gets inside against an offensive team is going to do serious damage, and Hoopa-U's position at that point is better taken up by pretty much any wallbreaker that has resistances, since, y'know, they can use those to get in there.
The funny thing I've found is that Hoopa-U, thanks to its own presence and the presence of Manaphy, isn't actually that good against stall right now, or at least isn't as good as it used to be. As far as actual wallbreaking power, it's certainly not to be taken lightly, but the prevalence of ScarfTar and Scarf Gothitelle on stall is a serious issue, as both of them are able to deal with it pretty easily (and honestly these two are on like every stall team atm). Obviously this isn't a particularly good answer, but it is enough to make Hoopa-U less able to 6-0 stall right off the bat, which is the main appeal to this thing. Until this trend dies down, Hoopa-U is going to struggle against stall a lot more than it used to. Again, the lack of a defensive typing hurts Hoopa-U here as well, as it has no resists to take advantage of, nor does it boast any immunities to status or hazards.
I'm kind of confused why something is as high as S Rank when it suffers from every meta trend going on atm, including ones in the one rare archtype that it should be great against, when stuff like Mega Manectric and Klefki, who are enjoying the current trends greatly, are sitting in lower ranks. Not that I'm implying Klefki is on the same level as Hoopa-U, but I don't think that something that suffers so much should be ranked that much higher than things that are actually solid right now.
TLDR; a bad matchup against offense and not appreciating new trends in what's left of stall lead me to question why a 20 foot tall genie is much more viable than a lightning dog.
First of all, I'll just go ahead and beat the dead horse a bit and list all the flaws this thing has. The average speed is fair enough against stall and bulkier teams, but seriously struggles against anything offensive . Additionally, while it's bulk is on the same level as Latias's, the total lack of resistances makes it nearly useless defensively. In the currently offensive meta, you'll notice almost everything either has some sort of defensive value or do extremely well against offense through offensive coverage, priority, or pure speed. Hoopa-U has none of these qualities. What you end up with is a mon that, despite its otherwise reasonable bulk, can't switch into most offensive mons. It's also unable to outrun most mons on offense, making it incapable of actually having a presence in most matches. Most matches with Hoopa-U against offense tends to end up with Hoopa-U coming in through either a sack or a slow switch, throwing out one attack, and then either being forced out and sacked later or dying on the spot. As a result, it's really difficult to build with this thing, since it offers no synergy with its team and requires a fair amount of team support to work as well. Now obviously once it gets in there's very few answers to it, but honestly any wallbreaker that gets inside against an offensive team is going to do serious damage, and Hoopa-U's position at that point is better taken up by pretty much any wallbreaker that has resistances, since, y'know, they can use those to get in there.
The funny thing I've found is that Hoopa-U, thanks to its own presence and the presence of Manaphy, isn't actually that good against stall right now, or at least isn't as good as it used to be. As far as actual wallbreaking power, it's certainly not to be taken lightly, but the prevalence of ScarfTar and Scarf Gothitelle on stall is a serious issue, as both of them are able to deal with it pretty easily (and honestly these two are on like every stall team atm). Obviously this isn't a particularly good answer, but it is enough to make Hoopa-U less able to 6-0 stall right off the bat, which is the main appeal to this thing. Until this trend dies down, Hoopa-U is going to struggle against stall a lot more than it used to. Again, the lack of a defensive typing hurts Hoopa-U here as well, as it has no resists to take advantage of, nor does it boast any immunities to status or hazards.
I'm kind of confused why something is as high as S Rank when it suffers from every meta trend going on atm, including ones in the one rare archtype that it should be great against, when stuff like Mega Manectric and Klefki, who are enjoying the current trends greatly, are sitting in lower ranks. Not that I'm implying Klefki is on the same level as Hoopa-U, but I don't think that something that suffers so much should be ranked that much higher than things that are actually solid right now.
TLDR; a bad matchup against offense and not appreciating new trends in what's left of stall lead me to question why a 20 foot tall genie is much more viable than a lightning dog.
M-Diancie is primarily meant to perform well against offensive oriented teams. Let's take a look at its most common set, Protect+3 Attacks, for example. The reason why M-Diancie performs better vs offensive teams compared to bulkier ones is; Magic Bounce, and defensive typing. Magic Bounce aids it a lot vs speed control mons found on HO like Thundurus and Klefki. This doesn't allow it to be crippled, and this ensures that its potential sweep isn't stopped by anything other than an OHKO. It has a really nice speed tier, the only things that can take it out on HO are: Iron Tail Tornadus-T, Klefki, Scarf Keldeo, and M-Lopunny (watch out for Protect). It's typing, Rock/Fairy, makes it resist the ever so present priority dark and flying type moves, again, commonly found on HO.
Let's take a look at this core. You mentioned that it had a hard time beating the likes of Hippowdon and Clefable, yes? Hippowdon is dealt with by Keldeo while Volcarona should be able to handle Clefable. Volcarona also beats Ferrothorn, M-Venusaur, and Amoonguss, all of whom pose a threat to M-Diancie. Keldeo and Volcarona both fear Talonflame, which in return is checked by M-Diancie. M-Diancie also breaks stuff like TankChomp which pose problems to QD Volcarona. Hope this cleared up your doubts.
Honestly, I can't "like" this post enough. Who died and made Hoopa king of the wallbreakers? The reality is that (as was discussed many pages back) Hoopa faces stiff competition with many other wallbreakers that all have significant upsides over Hoopa (usable speed, resistances, different coverage, physical bulk etc.) including Kyurem-B, Manaphy, Thundurus, and Hydriegon. Pure attacking power and coverage are not enough in this meta right now.
I must also bring up the considerable support Hoopa requires. I found it needs at least 2 volt/turn mons to bring it in safely and by that point you are pretty much making the "Hoopa team." This lack of splashablilty really hurts Hoopa's shot at S rank. And before someone says Splashablilty=/= viability I'd argue that's not true. I'd say the ability to be used on many different teams reflects a mon's viability, otherwise it wouldn't be that easy to use and therefore not as viable. The other S rank mons can go on many teams with minimal support which is just not true of Hoopa.
In conclusion, I second Hoopa-U dropping to A rank where I'd put it more or less on par with Kyurem-B. At least drop it to A+
I wanna nominate Mega Beedrill to drop from B to B-
This thing looks OP offensively on paper with a ton of attack and a ton of speed. However, it literally can't do anything to fat ground types, and with Tank Garchomp, Hippowdon and Lando-T on most teams, this thing can't apply much pressure at all. There's also the fact it literally can't take any form of priority outside of Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave well at all, and offense (which is growing more popular) has plenty of priority (Fake out from Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham, Quick Attack from Diggersby and Mega Pinsir, E-Speed from Dragonite, Talonflame, Aqua Jet from Azu and Crawdaunt, Bullet Punch from Scizor, and Mega Medicham, Ice Shard from Weavile, and Sucker Punch from Bisharp). It's got a nice role in being a poison type that can 1HKO fairies easily, but aside from that, it's fairly easy to handle it. It's also got a pretty useful quick U-turn, but it's not too helpful when it can lose 29% to Tank Chomp, and then 25% from Stealth Rock. Mega Scizor and regular Scizor on the other hand, can do anything Mega Beedrill does, but slower. They can kill fairies, provide a good strong U-turn, and the biggest pros they have over Mega Beedrill, are the defensive stats + typing, as well as the access to Roost. There's also the fact Mega Beedrill can get forced out pretty easily after it gets a kill (you can usually send in something with priority or a scarfed mon with more than base 80 speed), meaning it'll lose another quarter of its health from trying to come back in. Besides Garchomp, Hippo and Lando-T, there's other mons that can check Mega Beedrill, most notably steel types including Mega Scizor, Skarmory and Magnet Rise Klefki (if Beedrill has Drill Run). Mega Beedrill becomes setup fodder for Mega Scizor, or it can give Garchomp, Hippo, Lando-T, Skarmory and Klefki a free turn to set up Stealth Rock and Spikes respectively. Overall, it's just getting harder to use, and requires much more team support than the other mons in the B Rank.
to B-
This thing looks OP offensively on paper with a ton of attack and a ton of speed. However, it literally can't do anything to fat ground types, and with Tank Garchomp, Hippowdon and Lando-T on most teams, this thing can't apply much pressure at all. There's also the fact it literally can't take any form of priority outside of Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave well at all, and offense (which is growing more popular) has plenty of priority (Fake out from Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham, Quick Attack from Diggersby and Mega Pinsir, E-Speed from Dragonite, Talonflame, Aqua Jet from Azu and Crawdaunt, Bullet Punch from Scizor, and Mega Medicham, Ice Shard from Weavile, and Sucker Punch from Bisharp). It's got a nice role in being a poison type that can 1HKO fairies easily, but aside from that, it's fairly easy to handle it. It's also got a pretty useful quick U-turn, but it's not too helpful when it can lose 29% to Tank Chomp, and then 25% from Stealth Rock. Mega Scizor and regular Scizor on the other hand, can do anything Mega Beedrill does, but slower. They can kill fairies, provide a good strong U-turn, and the biggest pros they have over Mega Beedrill, are the defensive stats + typing, as well as the access to Roost. There's also the fact Mega Beedrill can get forced out pretty easily after it gets a kill (you can usually send in something with priority or a scarfed mon with more than base 80 speed), meaning it'll lose another quarter of its health from trying to come back in. Besides Garchomp, Hippo and Lando-T, there's other mons that can check Mega Beedrill, most notably steel types including Mega Scizor, Skarmory and Magnet Rise Klefki (if Beedrill has Drill Run). Mega Beedrill becomes setup fodder for Mega Scizor, or it can give Garchomp, Hippo, Lando-T, Skarmory and Klefki a free turn to set up Stealth Rock and Spikes respectively. Overall, it's just getting harder to use, and requires much more team support than the other mons in the B Rank.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Dafuq b-? Lol
Shaymin shouldn't move up in the first place. This argument has been made half a dozen times over the last while.
It is thoroughly outclassed by celebi, serp, and venusaur to the point where D/c- is obvious.
Serp doesn't need bulk (also avest), because it is out speeding 90% of the meta anyway. How is it took weak btw? Lol It doesn't even need to bs its way through anything (which fyi is not true in the slightest) because it has a guaranteed +2 (how are you about to claim that 30% chance - chance of missing is anything close to reliable. On top of that you are overstating the effect). Venusaur also outclasses it as an offensive grass type. Even celebi outclasses it. The extra resistances are bae (the weaknesses don't matter. Sludge bomb gengar. Akazam 2hkos shaymin with psychic, hoopa gunk shot, etc.) And the unpredictability is even more bae. Leaf storm gives you -2, but when is shaymin not getting forced out on turn 2 anyway? And lol at rest amazing recovery. Perhaps if it didn't absolutely destroy momentum while literally giving the opponent a free turn.
Of course seed flare > leaf storm, so shaymin probably outclasses celebi as an all out attacker slow and weak af grass type, but it doesn't matter because all out attacking slow and weak af grass types are garbage in this meta lol. Celebi's access to bpass/boosting moves/twave to actually take on switching like talonflame and any other faster threat is infinitely more valuable.
Also serp is still 100% better as an all out attack grass type (it is both fast and strong af).
Moving it to b- is plain stupid lol. C+ is plain ignorant. C is maybe if suicune becomes an issue but owait celebi can just nasty plot and 1hko.
Also celebi gets stab psychic which is absurdly useful given that shaymin is trying to run psychic/air slash 80% of the time and celebi is just outright stronger at it.
lol why do u refer to everything as bae
p2
Banned deucer.
I said B- was pushing it, chill
Shaymin, in terms of coverage is easily the best offensive grass type available. Serperior has ass coverage, Celebi needs to run NP, while also needing to use up a turn to even threaten teams the way Shaymin can. It is not outclassed, and I've already said why.
How am I overstating the effect of -2 SpD? In all honesty, I don't think you've ever used or played a competent Shaymin in your life because -2 SpD is fucking scary, especially when Shaymin can outspeed you and has a shit ton more coverage than Serperior and can run more moves than Celebi. and lmao at Venusaur outclassing it when they do completely different things. The extra resistances help. I can describe a situation where Shaymin repeatedly took U-turns and just nukes the next mon that came in with Seed Flare or just Rested off the damage and came back in later, it's a somewhat rare situation, but given that U-turn is one of the more prevalent moves in the meta right now, it gives Shaymin more breathing space instead of just getting forced out like Celebi does. Natural Cure Rest is a momentum sink, but you're acting completely oblivious to the fact that simply using Recover / Synthesis is a massive sink too, and Rest completely fits Shaymins playstyle of come in, blow up something with Seed Flare, followed by a coverage move, and getting the fuck out of there.
But yeah, you can blindly disagree with Shaymin for nonsense reasons, not an issue for me.
Umbreon for Unlisted -> D
umbreon can be use full on stall in can create so pretty good wall core e.g Umbreon, Skarmory, Mew. Umbreon has really good base defensive stats 95HP 130Spdef 110Def witch it pretty good imo. Umbreon is only weak to 3 types being Bug fairy and fighting witch although they are common types that not to bad also many other wall resist these types so it not to much of a deal also umbreon get accsess to STAB foul play witch it great for dealing with set up sweepers if you run 200 Def and 252 HP (this def and HP allows you to take +1 flare blitz and after recoil kill it with foul play) you can revenge kill zard x witch is pretty im pressive (this is when zard is +1 ) thought this isnt the really the mean reason. Umbreon also can wish pass of his Base 95HP stat witch isnt as good as say chansey or vaporeon but is still pretty impressive he also dosnt louse you all momentom like many other wall as you can baton pass out when predicting a switch. Umbreon check latios and latias very well compaired to other wall like Skarm ferro or clef as latios commonly runs HP fire and pyshock to counter these also umbreon is a very good cleric witch heal bell. I dont exspect Umbreon to be put into D rank but i really think i should go there (thanks for reading)
umbreon can be use full on stall in can create so pretty good wall core e.g Umbreon, Skarmory, Mew. Umbreon has really good base defensive stats 95HP 130Spdef 110Def witch it pretty good imo. Umbreon is only weak to 3 types being Bug fairy and fighting witch although they are common types that not to bad also many other wall resist these types so it not to much of a deal also umbreon get accsess to STAB foul play witch it great for dealing with set up sweepers if you run 200 Def and 252 HP (this def and HP allows you to take +1 flare blitz and after recoil kill it with foul play) you can revenge kill zard x witch is pretty im pressive (this is when zard is +1 ) thought this isnt the really the mean reason. Umbreon also can wish pass of his Base 95HP stat witch isnt as good as say chansey or vaporeon but is still pretty impressive he also dosnt louse you all momentom like many other wall as you can baton pass out when predicting a switch. Umbreon check latios and latias very well compaired to other wall like Skarm ferro or clef as latios commonly runs HP fire and pyshock to counter these also umbreon is a very good cleric witch heal bell. I dont exspect Umbreon to be put into D rank but i really think i should go there (thanks for reading)
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The trouble with Umbreon is much like that with Chansey: it's relatively passive in a highly offensively-oriented metagame (although Foul Play will do more to some opponents than Seismic Toss). Porygon-2 fulfills the general mixed wall role better thanks to a better defensive typing and actual offensive presence, although again, Umbreon has passive recovery over it. Plus, mono-Dark is not the best defensive typing. Being weak to two common attacking types in Fighting and Fairy kinda sucks. And then Sylveon can do much of the WishProtect thing with a better defensive typing and, again, actual offensive presence. EDIT: And Clefable exists, with two awesome abilities defensively and that Fairy typing and offensive presence, thank you AllJokesAside.
Like with so many other noms for D, it's not that a particular mon is bad, it's just outclassed.
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Stiff competition with this behemoth.
In all honesty, there was a lot of immediate Hoopa over excitement, as there is with any new release (such as Serperior), though, with that said, I don't know if it's really enough to warrant a rise. I believe B is still fitting for it right now.
If I hear that Base 100 Speed is slow again, I think I'll take another break from this place. Shaymin does have other coverage options like Earth Power (stay away, Heatran), so...that's cool. I'm all behind Shaymin moving up, but C+ is probably the highest I can see it
I'm pretty neutral on this debate overall, but would like to mention that Shaymin and Celebi have the same base offensive stat, and leaf storm has a higher BP and less chance to miss than Seed Flare. Celebi also recieves Earth Power and STAB Psychic, so stating that Shaymin hits harder than Celebi or has a more diverse movepool isn't true. Celebi also doesn't need to NP in order to hit as hard as Shaymin. Basically, while using shaymin you are relying on SpDef drops in order for it to force checks out, although if a faster threat switches in on it, it's gone anyway. I have no comment on how viable relying on Spdef Drops is.
actually I'm glad you brought up speed tiers, I wanna share what I use to identify "slow" and "fast"
x<100 base speed is slow
100<x<110 is fast
110<x is very fast
That's my take on it anyway.
Regarding m-bee, b- sounds pretty good. Considering all the klefki+rh chomp hazard setting business we see all the time the drop seems pretty fair. However, I dont support comparisons to scizor as they're just different beasts altogether; bee has the speed to not give a shit about every other pokemon and its mother trying to lure it with hp fire which is important in battle but is easy to forget on paper. But its not as strong as its ability and stats would suggest and its reaally prone to priority so it oughta drop.
About shaymin, yeah, celebi has same movepool and t-wave baton pass and Stab psychic (psychic is a bad attacking type to start with) yada yada sure but the point that's trying to be made is that shaymin is a better tank. This is mostly because sometimes monograss typing is better than grass/psychic. You have a LOT less annoying weaknesses to worry about like bug, ghost, and dark, two of which are super common, and seed flare is much more consistent than leaf storm, especially with a 40% chance to turn checks to fodder. And it has more bulk and better movepool than serp yay move it up to C.
Finally one nom i'd like to make: Toxicroak to C
it's mostly being nom'd up because of its really cool typing that allows it to check 4 prominent mons: clefable, bisharp, azu, and keldeo. It's very very unique in its ability to check all of them, and it fits in very nicely into offensive teams that can't bother with much more than checks anyway. It's fairly strong as well, a +2 LO gunk dishes out 73%-90% to max defense slowbro. And thanks to the omnipresent bulky chomp its definitely viable to swap out sucker punch for ice punch, especially since bulky chomp rarely run more speed than 263 (bish/loom).
It's really frail outside of that, so its not really switching into much, and its walled to hell by a few things like hippo and m-sab, and an unSTAB'd sucker isn't nearly enough to redeem its mediocre speed tier, but its cool typing+ability lets it check some important stuff and its strong otherwise so it oughta move up; its on the level of regular hera/goodra.
EDIT: wait toxicroak's at B- not C- nvm it can stay there
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I don't get what you're trying to get at with the Toxicroak nom: are you nomming it to drop two ranks from where it's at? From what I can tell it doesn't seem like that at all since you're pointing out a lot of good things about it. Or maybe you just didn't remember that it's currently B- atm? Toxicroak is currently B- atm, and right now for all the reasons you said I think B- (where it is now) is a pretty damn good placement for it. Being able to check some of the top mons and being pretty good as an offensive threat I'd say warrant its current rank (b-) right now.
Not to mention that Toxicroak makes a sweet check to Azumarill on rain due to its typing + Dry Skin. It also takes care of Ferrothorn pretty easily and a Gunk Shot hits a lot of things shockingly well, with priority to back it up. Bulky Chomp does suck for it, but it's relatively easy to wear down anyway. Toxicroak is completely deserving of B- for its role on rain alone.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Celebi and shaymin have the same exact coverage except celebi's coverage is better.
I downplayed -2 because there is a difference between -2 and a 20-something percent chance of -2. There is also a difference between -2 and +2, especially when you are dealing with low bp coverage moves off of 100 spatt (ie shaymin is not hard to switch into at all. It's strongest move being a grass type doesn't do any favors).
But, again, shaymin and celebi literally have the same coverage. Serperior's coverage is limited, but it is also much stronger given that it is always going to be coming off of +2 for the most part (and dragon pulse + HP fire or rock really isn't that bad. It is limited to p much the same targets as shaymin).
When you rest, you are forced to give up a turn. You can either switch or completely waste a turn. It is safe for the opp to do anything. When you recover, you can continue to function.
Shaymin isn't blowing anything up with seed flare. It is p much hydro pump off of base 100 attack with way worse coverage lol.
Its onlyonly real niche is taking u-turns better (tho I would argue that just switching to tank chomp is more beneficial). Dark/ghost moves always have a se move along with them (weavile, gengar, hoopa), and celebi can outspeeds and surprise ko bisharp or playa round spunch.
U go "u haven't played a good shaymin" (duh because shaymin is bad), but nobody in the entire thread that has ever proposed shaymin to rise has ever posted any replays of shaymin doing something that celebi or serp could not. ^_^
Also what is your lucky -2 going to do to gengar or talon or char or tornadus or do you see where I'm going with this?
There are a bunch of trap-based Umbreon stalls on the upper echelons of the ladder, and I've been using it in a traditional semistall with some success. It's just really good, easily on par or better than everything in C+.
First of all, Synchronise + Heal Bell is an amazing combination. Umbreon can switch regularly into Scalds and status in general, similarly to Mew, but with better bulk, typing, and the ability to cure itself. Because of this, Umbreon is actually a massive pain to M-Sableye - the utility version can't spam Will-o-wisp freely, and can't touch Umbreon outside of Knock Off, whereas the CM version again doesn't want to burn it and manages a maximum of 26% with a +6 Shadow Ball.
Wish + slow Baton Pass is also a strong niche, although Umbreon has to go without Protect to use it. Outside of these things, Umbreon is just a good special wall. 95/110/130 is great, and thanks to its typing and Foul Play, Umbreon also makes one of the best checks to LO Hoopa.
Both sides of this argument are kinda overstating their cases. Shaymin has a very small niche in that it's a moderately fast, bulky Grass type with some offensive presence. Access to Earth Power is huge for it, and even though U-turn isn't that big atm, its lack of a Dark or Ghost weakness is enough to differentiate itself from Celebi. Seed Flare definitely isn't that much of a plus, though, mainly because of the low PP. I think C is the right place for it.
Yes, but Shaymin forces these Pokemon to use a less useful coverage move, thus making it easier for a teammate to switch in. Hoopa doesn't want to be hitting Gunk Shot instead of Dark Pulse, for instance, and its easier to switch into Weavile's Icicle Crash than its Knock Off. You omitted Bisharp, but Shaymin is clearly better against it. Not to mention that Pursuit is still big in this meta.
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Hit-and-run Grass-types were never spectacular in the first place (which is a big reason why Mega Scept is mediocre as it is). If a balance build is at risk of losing to Shaymin, it should really assess its matchups against both Serperior and Nasty Plot Celebi in general because those two would most likely be able to punch though it as well; in fact if the balance build has no issues with both Serp and Celebi it really shouldn't have trouble with Shaymin at all. So yes, Shaymin is fairly outclassed as far as offensive Grass-types go especially when compared to Celebi (which I've already explained ages ago here) but I'll continue elaborating below.
- Shaymin may have more coverage options than Serperior, namely Earth Power for Heatran, Dazzling Gleam for Mega Altaria, and Air Slash for Mega Venusaur / Volcarona / Amoonguss, but it really cannot afford to fit them comfortably into its moveset. There's also the fact that those coverage moves only cover like one / two targets at the very most than Serperior doesn't already hit, making it even harder to justify over the sheer raw effectiveness that is Leaf Storm / HP Fire / Dragon Pulse Serperior. In fact, in terms of 3 move neutral coverage Serperior has the upper hand, whereas 3 attacks Shaymin may aim to hit something Serperior does not and end up missing out on more targets overall; any moveset you can conjure up with Shaymin is almost guaranteed to hit less threats than Serperior does in the current meta, if not less effectively. Not to mention at the end of the day Shaymin still struggles heavily with Flying-types anyway, while even Serperior has a tool to mess with them in the form of Glare.
- Yes, you are overstating the effect of -2 SpD due to the fact that it has 40% chance of actually occurring (not accounting for the miss) compared to Serperior's guaranteed +2. This is worsened by the fact that the opponent can actively nullify the effect by switching, unlike the case with Serperior. This means Shaymin would need to fire off more Seed Flares throughout a match regardless of the opponent's team matchup (Serperior only really needs to get to +6 or even just +4 before it can start resorting to its weaker moves to pick off opponents), which is bad as Seed Flare's measly 8 PP would become very apparent. A good example of this would be Chansey, who can sponge a few Seed Flares until its SpD gets dropped too low, then it simply switches out to something that can survive the hit (let's recall Shaymin isn't that strong either) and come back in to drain more of Seed Flare's PP.
- While Shaymin has fewer weaknesses, it's not really helped by the fact that the large majority of users of Bug-, Dark-, and Ghost-type attacks still have a favorable matchup against Shaymin regardless. You go on about Shaymin not being forced out by U-turn but just about the only common U-turn user Shaymin can afford to stay in on is Landorus-T, then in order for Shaymin to heal off the damage it needs to Rest, meaning it would get forced out anyway, just via a different method that still gives the opponent momentum.
Those tools that you mention Celebi have are enough to make Grass / Psychic typing not as much of a liability as it makes itself out to be. Meanwhile, Grass / Psychic typing grants Celebi easy switch-in opportunities to Keldeo while also resisting Mega Lopunny's most powerful STAB, so I would hesitate on calling Shaymin the better tank among the two (what does Shaymin even manage to switch in on that Celebi doesn't?). Serp may have lesser bulk than Shaymin but it is by no means bad, plus it can make up for it by being able to afford Giga Drain (aka a healing method that is the complete opposite of Rest when it comes to maintaning momentum) while Shaymin cannot. Shaymin's superior offensive movepool is severely undermined by the fact that it doesn't manage to cover as many threats as Serperior does universally, no matter what moveset it tries unless it forgoes Rest, but if I am even going to suggest that then anyone can start to see Shaymin's limitations.
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That's right, guys. They're the exact same. No differences. There is nothing different about their coverage--except Celebi's is better. Even though they're exactly the same, somehow Celebi's is better. Their coverage isn't exactly the same, actually. Celebi can use Shadow Ball. Shaymin has Air Slash. If anything, Shadow Ball might be worse as a coverage move since Air Slash can hit Grass-Types like Serperior and Venusaur for Super-Effective Damage. All Shadow Ball can do is hit the Latis, really. Akalazam is so frail it doesn't matter, Mega Metagross can be hit harder with Power, Slowbro and Starmie already has a Grass Weakness, and Hoopa-U? No Celebi, nor Shaymin, is staying in on that. What, you don't like opposing Celebi? Pretty pointless if you ask me. Shaymin's Air Slash is hitting every Grass-Type that would normally check it (bar Ferrothorn, but that's always been an exception), as well as giving it a way to fight off Fight-Types AND Bug-Types (except Scizor, but...again, Scizor's an exception Pokemon). If you ask me, Celebi's coverage isn't as good as people make it out to be.
Seed Flare has a 40% chance of lowering the opponent's Special Defense by two stages, not this "20-something percent". To be fair, though, low BP moves don't do any favors. On the other hand, Seed Flare isn't a "low bp coverage move". It's a STAB. There's a difference.
What did I say earlier about Shaymin and Celebi having different coverage? Serperior is going to be powerful off the bat, but Heatran can just come in and take advantage of it on the spot moreso than Shaymin. Why? Shaymin has Earth Power, much like Celebi. Serperior's power may be impressive after a turn, but it comes at a terrible cost to coverage.
Shaymin can tank better than Serperior and doesn't take as much damage from U-Turn as Celebi, nor does it have a Dark or Ghost Weakness. Replays aren't always needed if the proof is on paper. Does Celebi have a better defensive typing against specific Pokemon? Sure. Look at Mega Lopunny and Breloom, for instance. At the cost of that, you are much weaker to one of the most common moves that every Landorus-T, most Mega Pidgeot, Tornadus-T, non Swords Dance Scizor, etc.
Celebi doesn't want to stay in on any of those, much like Shaymin. Serperior can outspeed Gengar and Charizard, but Charizard can boost. If anything, none of these Grass-Types want to be going against any of these Pokemon (except Serperior vs Gengar, but really that's only if Serperior is at +2 already).
What did we learn today? Having a different move equals to having the "same exact coverage" and a STAB move is a coverage move.
Guys, if we're going to name specifics about Shaymin, can we at least get the specifics down and correct? Please?
*I'm going to be flamed, aren't I?*
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Celebi's is better because Stab psychic instead of not stab psychic is what I was going for.
Air slash is bad imo. Shaymin is presses for moves, actually (hence why celebi runs a bpass set and not aoa, because aoa slow grass sucks, etc.)
Seed flare is obviously nice. Then you have two of: ancient power (only for talon and zard who wall you otherwise), HP ice/fire (hp ice seems p mediocre when dgleam and ancientpower exist, so meh. But HP fire for ferro/sciz/skarm who wall(-ish for scizor) you otherwise), earth power (for steels that aren't ferro or skarm or kind of scizor), air slash (for like... Serperior), dazzling gleam (for altaria/dragons and Hoopa or something), psychic (for venu).
You could say "but that's so many options!" Which would be true for lots of mons, but in the case of a mono grass type, it is :( because of the fact that no combo of two offers good+strong-enough coverage (alongside obligatory grass).
Keep in mind that stab psychic on celebi = 135bp. Stronger than a se base power, same power p much as se air slash, etc. This trade off is leaf storm > seed flare but meh. Aoa sucks anyway in both cases.
Air slash doesn't matter also because seed flare is stronger than se air slash lol.
Celebi is popular (not shaymin) because it can just bpass out when something bad comes in rather than try to squeeze decent coverage out of its good but limited-by-grass-typing-and-also-weak options.
Again, idk what is so difficult about this, gengar->sludge wave. Hoopa-u>gunk shot. Weavile->icicle crash. Bisharp>surprise outspeeds and ko with ep or just switch out/pass out into keldeo (in practice).
These are the relevant dark/ghost mons. They all 1hko shaymin also.
As far as none of the grass mkns wanting to go up against torn/gengar/etc.: duh. Why is this a pro for shaymin? Why would that hindrance be grounds for /any/ of them to move up? At least celebi can twave and serp can glare/outspeed. Serp doesn't need to ank as well because it is faster than the things shaymin p much needs to tank
UTurn, you p much listed mons that 1hko them both with their main moves (for example hurricane). No need to u-turn lol at least come up with good examples.
And you definitely do need replays because the proof is definitely itely not in the paper lol (and if it was, replays would be ez, right?)
Speaking of on-paper, you did a terrible job of coming up with real scenarios. Air slash covers bug types except steel-bugs? What bug types would those be in ou, exactly?
It covers grass types, sure, but psychic covers breloom/venusaur/fighting types harder, and those are the more relevant ones. What is air slash actually se against? Serperior and celebi? Meh. Shaymin doesn't have a ton of business staying in on either (and vice a versa).
You can't just say "covers ____ type", because it isn't that simple (what non steel bugs are in ou again? Pinsir mind of also ancient power and shaymin gets 1hkod anyway?). That is p much the defi ition of poor on-paper not practice argument.
ShadowMarioGalaxy64
Air slash is bad imo. Shaymin is presses for moves, actually (hence why celebi runs a bpass set and not aoa, because aoa slow grass sucks, etc.)
Seed flare is obviously nice. Then you have two of: ancient power (only for talon and zard who wall you otherwise), HP ice/fire (hp ice seems p mediocre when dgleam and ancientpower exist, so meh. But HP fire for ferro/sciz/skarm who wall(-ish for scizor) you otherwise), earth power (for steels that aren't ferro or skarm or kind of scizor), air slash (for like... Serperior), dazzling gleam (for altaria/dragons and Hoopa or something), psychic (for venu).
You could say "but that's so many options!" Which would be true for lots of mons, but in the case of a mono grass type, it is :( because of the fact that no combo of two offers good+strong-enough coverage (alongside obligatory grass).
Keep in mind that stab psychic on celebi = 135bp. Stronger than a se base power, same power p much as se air slash, etc. This trade off is leaf storm > seed flare but meh. Aoa sucks anyway in both cases.
Air slash doesn't matter also because seed flare is stronger than se air slash lol.
Celebi is popular (not shaymin) because it can just bpass out when something bad comes in rather than try to squeeze decent coverage out of its good but limited-by-grass-typing-and-also-weak options.
Again, idk what is so difficult about this, gengar->sludge wave. Hoopa-u>gunk shot. Weavile->icicle crash. Bisharp>surprise outspeeds and ko with ep or just switch out/pass out into keldeo (in practice).
These are the relevant dark/ghost mons. They all 1hko shaymin also.
As far as none of the grass mkns wanting to go up against torn/gengar/etc.: duh. Why is this a pro for shaymin? Why would that hindrance be grounds for /any/ of them to move up? At least celebi can twave and serp can glare/outspeed. Serp doesn't need to ank as well because it is faster than the things shaymin p much needs to tank
UTurn, you p much listed mons that 1hko them both with their main moves (for example hurricane). No need to u-turn lol at least come up with good examples.
And you definitely do need replays because the proof is definitely itely not in the paper lol (and if it was, replays would be ez, right?)
Speaking of on-paper, you did a terrible job of coming up with real scenarios. Air slash covers bug types except steel-bugs? What bug types would those be in ou, exactly?
It covers grass types, sure, but psychic covers breloom/venusaur/fighting types harder, and those are the more relevant ones. What is air slash actually se against? Serperior and celebi? Meh. Shaymin doesn't have a ton of business staying in on either (and vice a versa).
You can't just say "covers ____ type", because it isn't that simple (what non steel bugs are in ou again? Pinsir mind of also ancient power and shaymin gets 1hkod anyway?). That is p much the defi ition of poor on-paper not practice argument.
ShadowMarioGalaxy64
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MikeDawg I don't know what you're going on about with this Ancientpower business because Shaymin doesn't even learn it (but Celebi can).
Also Air Slash nabs the bulky Grasses as well as Volcarona, whereas Psychic only hits MVenusaur and Amoonguss but not Celebi itself.
So now you have Seed Flare + Earth Power + HP Fire Shaymin, plus Rest in the final moveslot. Does this moveset seem off to you? You've managed to cover Heatran all right, but you still miss out on a lot of mons Serperior doesn't cover, like Mega Venusaur, Tornadus-T, Talonflame, Mega Altaria, Volcarona, Amoonguss, etc. while faring even worse against Mega Charizard Y, Dragonite, Kyurem-B, Latios, Latias, and Gengar, the latter five of which don't even check Serperior to begin with, so now Shaymin has even more obstacles to bypass. Substituting your existing coverage for other coverage like Air Slash and Dazzling Gleam simply opens you up to other mons, namely Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory. Shaymin's additional coverage options are simply not worth giving up the effectiveness of Serperior.
nameless90 if you're arguing against Shaymin, why are you nominating it to rise to C Rank? Shaymin is currently in C- Rank.
Also Air Slash nabs the bulky Grasses as well as Volcarona, whereas Psychic only hits MVenusaur and Amoonguss but not Celebi itself.
This is probably where I should start elaborating on why Shaymin's superior offensive movepool still doesn't do it a lot of favors. So you have Seed Flare + Earth Power, so already you're pretty set against Heatran. But what about the other Pokemon Serperior struggle with? You should probably put HP Fire on Shaymin since the whole reason you're using Shaymin over Serperior is to have coverage for the 4x Fire weak Steel-types and Heatran; otherwise you'd probably be better off using HP Ground Serperior instead.
So now you have Seed Flare + Earth Power + HP Fire Shaymin, plus Rest in the final moveslot. Does this moveset seem off to you? You've managed to cover Heatran all right, but you still miss out on a lot of mons Serperior doesn't cover, like Mega Venusaur, Tornadus-T, Talonflame, Mega Altaria, Volcarona, Amoonguss, etc. while faring even worse against Mega Charizard Y, Dragonite, Kyurem-B, Latios, Latias, and Gengar, the latter five of which don't even check Serperior to begin with, so now Shaymin has even more obstacles to bypass. Substituting your existing coverage for other coverage like Air Slash and Dazzling Gleam simply opens you up to other mons, namely Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory. Shaymin's additional coverage options are simply not worth giving up the effectiveness of Serperior.
Shaymin tanking hits better than Serperior is not very relevant since Serperior is usually not forced out easily when it does get going (meaning it doesn't need to switch into hits as often), whereas not taking as much damage from U-turn as Celebi is practically irrelevant as Shaymin has no business trying to take the hits of nearly every U-turn user (including the ones you mentioned) bar Landorus-T. I've also already explained that unless Shaymin takes the time to Rest and give the opponent momentum (while forcing itself out anyway), it's not going to be tanking U-turns for very long regardless.
Yeah I agree with this. I will say that MSceptile's access to Rock Slide is interesting as it can actually prevent most of the Flying-types that all the other offensive Grass-types struggle to beat (Talonflame, Tornadus-T, YZard) from checking it, plus Lightningrod allows it to make use of a mistimed Electric move to break open cores or just simply swat Thundurus-I aside. Aside from that, its Speed may be high but it's not even the fastest Mega around, it can't check weather teams like MegaZam can, it doesn't have Mega Aero's versatile and safe coverage to threaten the majority of fast attackers with, and when it comes to coverage it faces similar problem with Shaymin (albeit less severe) when compared to Serperior's. Speaking of safe, even Mega Sceptile's STABs are pretty awkward: Leaf Storm is your nuking attack, but your reliable attack, Dragon Pulse, is so much noticeably weaker than Leaf Storm (less than ~2/3 the power!) that it just feels like Mega Scept doesn't have a reliable "middle ground attack" when it comes to attacking, which isn't good news for an attacker that can't boost its power (Swords Dance MScept is just so...ugh).
nameless90 if you're arguing against Shaymin, why are you nominating it to rise to C Rank? Shaymin is currently in C- Rank.
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