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Resource ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings V4 (See Post #229: Page 10)
- Thread starter bludz
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Okay so that didn't happen yet lol I'll be updating that tomorrow since I have time and editing in any VR shifts.
Here's something the ranking team discussed a little bit but we're sorta split so I wanna drop it here:
+TDK: hey why did defensive land-t rise?
+TDK: im not a fan of it at all tbh, it's really easy to exploit due to its low power w/o any investment or boosting moves and is easy to wear down
+TDK: not a fan of it being in the same rank as chomper tbh
I think the last point is kinda whats hard to argue against. I mean there is the idea that subranks can still have differences (i.e. Tank Chomp and Offensive Chomp are both A+ but one is mostly better than the other), but regardless the comparison point is pretty strong. As I said, team's sorta split on this issue so I wanna hear any opinions here.
Other things TDK said were: remove av sharp, drop its scarf set and drop sd zard x. These will all probably happen, though I'll talk it over with the team a bit more. AV Sharp just has the issue of being sorta in between 52 SpD EV sharp and AV Metagross making its niche pretty small and almost inconsequential a lot of the time. Scarf had more popularity at one point but just isn't that great of a set and as threatening as SD Zard X can be to bulky teams its really not all that great.
BTW m00ns said he doesn't wanna juggle too many things so he's leaving our council ;_;
Here's something the ranking team discussed a little bit but we're sorta split so I wanna drop it here:
+TDK: hey why did defensive land-t rise?
+TDK: im not a fan of it at all tbh, it's really easy to exploit due to its low power w/o any investment or boosting moves and is easy to wear down
+TDK: not a fan of it being in the same rank as chomper tbh
I think the last point is kinda whats hard to argue against. I mean there is the idea that subranks can still have differences (i.e. Tank Chomp and Offensive Chomp are both A+ but one is mostly better than the other), but regardless the comparison point is pretty strong. As I said, team's sorta split on this issue so I wanna hear any opinions here.
Other things TDK said were: remove av sharp, drop its scarf set and drop sd zard x. These will all probably happen, though I'll talk it over with the team a bit more. AV Sharp just has the issue of being sorta in between 52 SpD EV sharp and AV Metagross making its niche pretty small and almost inconsequential a lot of the time. Scarf had more popularity at one point but just isn't that great of a set and as threatening as SD Zard X can be to bulky teams its really not all that great.
BTW m00ns said he doesn't wanna juggle too many things so he's leaving our council ;_;
Defensive Lando-T should be one rank lower than Garchomp. I end up using it more because its the more consistent mon against Sand and has other nice stuff like U-turn and Intimidate, but its incapable of passively punishing contact attackers or phazing them and it just gets walked over by the likes of Ferrothorn and MegaZor. They have strong competition, but Garchomp is definitely the more consistent and splashable mon and really, Lando-T just isn't on the same level as it at all
Can we rank Swords Dance Rhyperior somewhere in C- or D? this thing is ridiculous in trick room, once it gets a boost and with SR damage, anything not named Quagsire or Mega Slowbro will die (even hippo is OHKOed by Aqua Tail 87.5% of the time and Skarm has a 75% to die to Stone Edge lol) and is very hard to revenge kill through priority, due to its excellent physical bulk and Solid Rock. The fun thing is that Rhyperior can adjust its movepool to beat some of its would-be checks. For example, Mega Slowbro is OHKOed by +2 Megahorn.
Rhyperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Tail / Megahorn
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Tail / Megahorn
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 413-489 (98.3 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 398-468 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 312-368 (70.2 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 408-481 (103.5 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 281-331 (84.1 - 99.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (LOL)
252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 199-234 (50.5 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 216-255 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 398-468 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 312-368 (70.2 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 408-481 (103.5 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 281-331 (84.1 - 99.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (LOL)
252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 199-234 (50.5 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 216-255 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Why would you need to revenge kill Rhyperior with priority, just bubble-beam it and it drops.
Rhyperior at +2 destroys all fat waters bar Quag, and it outspeeds them too since it's designed to work in TR.
The general idea we have for trick rooms sets is to hesitate to rank then due to the simple fact of how uncommon, hardly viable, very niche, and horribly inconsistent the playstyle is. There's a reason why the mons dedicated to TR are so low.
Why would you ever want to use setup moves in Trick Room? That's killing your already limited TR turns.
Naw SD Rhyperior sucks. - someone who's already tried it
I'm ok with defensive lando-t going down a rank below tankchomp at this point. I agree with all of TDK's points.
Some other things I've noticed is that Hoopa's NP set is sitting at A alongside its Scarf set. I would put that at A-, the extra coverage move is the reason why it can be deadly in the first place.
I reaaaaally don't think people are using SpDef Heatran as their main set of choice in most builds, the speed and offensive potential is kind of huge being able to outpace the likes of Breloom and Bisharp and there's a reason more people stick with offensive variants barring some fatter balance squads. Slower Heatran variants pave the way for a ton of things to kind of demolish it such offensive SD Mega Scizor and gives Keldeo a much easier time to switch in. Not sure what you want to call it but Stallbreaker is a weird name for a set that's more offensive and pick and chooses how it functions, 2 attacks / Taunt / SR, 3 attacks / SR, 3 attacks / Taunt. Just something to consider.
Someone mind explaining to me what "Defensive Utility" is on Gliscor? Being a Gliscor already makes it out to be that imo.
Can you guys please remove offensive lure on Mew rofl, that's just dumb and they're all gimmicks for the most part.
Holy Shit why is Sash Alakazam at B LOL. I could probably argue as to why it should be in the same rank as Life Orb but considering everyones boner for its Life Orb set I don't mind if you guys don't realize how clutch this thing can be late game. I've won a lot of my small tour matches with this coupled in with hazards as an end game where Life Orb Alakazam would fail. It's suppose to be an end game thing anyways it's not exactly limited to 3 attacks / Twave, which is sort of a poor mans way of handling dragon dancers like Char-X. I run HP Fire or an extra coverage move on a lot of mine seeing as how late game is when M-Scizor normally cleans but is usually in the kill range of HP Fire from Alakazam. Sash gives it the potential to finish off things like these, Life Orb variant can kind of deter some bulky offense and balance builds, however most offense and even some more offensive components on bulky offense such as SD Talonflame, Excadrill, and Weavile bank on their success against an Alakazam on the notion that Life Orb is what it's running. Having a second wind against some revenge killers is a big selling point to this set seeing as how it will be coupled in with hazards and can put most of these priority users in the kill range for Sash Alakazam to take care of.
I think Offensive Starmie is more deadly to the point that Defensive Starmie is more team specific and almost a slight opportunity cost. Not saying now but you want to keep a look out at the realization give or take half the teams you see now are boned by offensive Starmie.
I'll comment on more stuff later perhaps but I figure I would take a quick look and drop some thoughts on what I see.
I'm ok with defensive lando-t going down a rank below tankchomp at this point. I agree with all of TDK's points.
Some other things I've noticed is that Hoopa's NP set is sitting at A alongside its Scarf set. I would put that at A-, the extra coverage move is the reason why it can be deadly in the first place.
I reaaaaally don't think people are using SpDef Heatran as their main set of choice in most builds, the speed and offensive potential is kind of huge being able to outpace the likes of Breloom and Bisharp and there's a reason more people stick with offensive variants barring some fatter balance squads. Slower Heatran variants pave the way for a ton of things to kind of demolish it such offensive SD Mega Scizor and gives Keldeo a much easier time to switch in. Not sure what you want to call it but Stallbreaker is a weird name for a set that's more offensive and pick and chooses how it functions, 2 attacks / Taunt / SR, 3 attacks / SR, 3 attacks / Taunt. Just something to consider.
Someone mind explaining to me what "Defensive Utility" is on Gliscor? Being a Gliscor already makes it out to be that imo.
Can you guys please remove offensive lure on Mew rofl, that's just dumb and they're all gimmicks for the most part.
Holy Shit why is Sash Alakazam at B LOL. I could probably argue as to why it should be in the same rank as Life Orb but considering everyones boner for its Life Orb set I don't mind if you guys don't realize how clutch this thing can be late game. I've won a lot of my small tour matches with this coupled in with hazards as an end game where Life Orb Alakazam would fail. It's suppose to be an end game thing anyways it's not exactly limited to 3 attacks / Twave, which is sort of a poor mans way of handling dragon dancers like Char-X. I run HP Fire or an extra coverage move on a lot of mine seeing as how late game is when M-Scizor normally cleans but is usually in the kill range of HP Fire from Alakazam. Sash gives it the potential to finish off things like these, Life Orb variant can kind of deter some bulky offense and balance builds, however most offense and even some more offensive components on bulky offense such as SD Talonflame, Excadrill, and Weavile bank on their success against an Alakazam on the notion that Life Orb is what it's running. Having a second wind against some revenge killers is a big selling point to this set seeing as how it will be coupled in with hazards and can put most of these priority users in the kill range for Sash Alakazam to take care of.
I think Offensive Starmie is more deadly to the point that Defensive Starmie is more team specific and almost a slight opportunity cost. Not saying now but you want to keep a look out at the realization give or take half the teams you see now are boned by offensive Starmie.
I'll comment on more stuff later perhaps but I figure I would take a quick look and drop some thoughts on what I see.
Rhyperior needs to boost against balance and sometimes bulky offense since even it lacks the raw power to destroy stuff unboosted. However, 2 turns (including the turn where you SD) is honestly enough to seriously destabilize fat cores.
I'd say SD Rhyperior is more consistent than BD Chesnaught, each being in their favorable playstyle (TR and bulky offense respectively).
TR is sorta barely viable to the point that mons like regular Diancie aren't even ranked on the viability rankings.
If we're gonna rank SD Rhyperior we might as well re-rank stuff like Specs Latios which is just so niche that I don't think it's worth it.
If we're gonna rank SD Rhyperior we might as well re-rank stuff like Specs Latios which is just so niche that I don't think it's worth it.
Idk about you, but personally I don't see what niche Mega Camel has outside of Trick Room. It's extremely slow, and unlike something such as Ferrothorn or Slowbro it lacks any form of reliable recovery, which compromits its good bulk. An immunity to Volt Switch is cool, so I guess it stops Raikou and Manectric? but there are better ground-types for that tbh.
Mega Cam doesn't need a turn of set up to net damage. There's a huge difference between that and Rhyperior and it's kind of obvious you're just talking out of thin air for the sake of legitimizing a point that you have not backed up with any relevant points or replays, going purely off of paper logic that doesn't convey the whole story.
Wait what? Camel isn't able to break through the sheer number of walls Rhyperior can, since it can't do squat against Chansey, Latias, Gyarados or some bulky waters. Also Rhyperior actually doesn't need to always boost, it has 140 attack and STAB EdgeQuake, which offense really struggles against. It's supposed to boost against balance where taking out 2 pokemon is huge especially compared to offense.
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Can you explain to me in what realm of reality Rhyperior is actually setting up without making my head hurt? Can you actually go ahead and explain to me in what realm of reality Rhyperior even mandates a team slot to like, anything relevant these days? I'm simply amazed by this comment considering all the theorymon I'm reading from something even I have used myself so idk who you're fooling here.
I mean, you could use SD Rhyperior in TR, or you could achieve pretty much the same thing with a core of Camel+Wobb (which deals with every single one of the things you just listed as things that Rhyperior breaks and Camel doesn't - used this core thoroughy as it is on one of my favorite teams). TR is situational as hell anyway, and SD Rhyperior's niche is comparable in size to that of Poliwrath tbh. Not to mention that there are just better choices for physical TR abusers anyway which don't need a turn of setup (LO Conk comes to mind).
idk it forces out Pokemon that can't do too much to it and, well, set up??? (Tyranitar, Weavile, MegaZard X, Mega Diancie, bulky Mega Scizor, Manectric, Raikou, etc.)
Also you do realize SD Talonflame is one of the biggest threats to TR since Gale Wings bypasses it? And guess which Pokemon is probably the hardest counter to Talon? And yes I have used SD Rhyperior too. So I'm not theorymonning.
AM Edit: Ye I understand shitty TR teams get 6-0d by Talonflame good detective work.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
AM Edit: Lol riiight
Never used Camel+Wobb, but pairing this core with SD Rhyperior sounds really cool. Wobbuffet is able to destroy shit such as Quagsire and Mega Slowbro (if Rhyperior isn't running Megahorn) which Rhyperior would love gone. Camerupt is better at taking on mons such as Celebi, especially when TR isn't up. Rhyperior can also aid the core by being a hard stop to offensive Talonflame, unless it has the rare Natural Gift+Durin Berry combo.
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Why are we having an argument like this over something as mediocre and niche as sd rhyperior under the pretense its on a trick room team, a style that already struggles tremendously to be noteworthy?
Move on please.
Move on please.
Because I believe it's more effective than other shit in D (looking at you, Stallbreaker Chandelure) and is one of the premier physical abusers of Trick Room. Not saying it's this metagame-defining threat that everyone should prepare for, but I believe a set that capitalizes on its 140 Attack and STAB EdgeQuake, as well as its sheer physical bulk and access to Swords Dance, combined with its horrible base speed, SCREAMS Trick Room. And seeing as some other Pokemon that work exclusively in Trick Room are ranked, I think SD Rhy should be at least D. It's even mentioned on Rhyperior's analysis, albeit in Other Options.
With that said, I've brought my arguments, let's move on.
With regards to defensive lando-t dropping, I do not believe that its is below chomp in viability. Granted they both fulfil a similar niche as bulky ground types on more offensive teams, ultimately they wall different mons.
If i had a team that was weaker to bisharp, I would definitely run tankchomp. But in many offensive teams now, defensive lando t is the best counterplay to mons like + 1 zard x and sand drill, which tankchomp cannot handle as well. The usefulness of intimidate cannot be understated in handling boosting sweepers. With regards to handling talonflame, both chomp and defensive lando t are pretty susceptible to wisp variants. Though chomp can phase with dragon tail, landorus can actually pressure it with stone edge.
With regards to landorus-t having low power, I believe that we all know that its earthquakes are actually stronger than garchomps. Furthermore, I recently have had success in Swords Dance over u turn to prevent it from being fodder to scizor and clef and hippo.
Lastly, one point about defensive lando t is the fact that it is worn down less easily than chomp due to it normally holding lefties and its immunity to spikes. Chomp is definitely easier to wear down. Lando T is also generally more useful if its item has been knocked off compared to chomp as it doesnt rely on helmet to check physical attackers.
Tl;dr defensive lando t is as viable as tankchomp in this meta and should be placed in the same rank.
If i had a team that was weaker to bisharp, I would definitely run tankchomp. But in many offensive teams now, defensive lando t is the best counterplay to mons like + 1 zard x and sand drill, which tankchomp cannot handle as well. The usefulness of intimidate cannot be understated in handling boosting sweepers. With regards to handling talonflame, both chomp and defensive lando t are pretty susceptible to wisp variants. Though chomp can phase with dragon tail, landorus can actually pressure it with stone edge.
With regards to landorus-t having low power, I believe that we all know that its earthquakes are actually stronger than garchomps. Furthermore, I recently have had success in Swords Dance over u turn to prevent it from being fodder to scizor and clef and hippo.
Lastly, one point about defensive lando t is the fact that it is worn down less easily than chomp due to it normally holding lefties and its immunity to spikes. Chomp is definitely easier to wear down. Lando T is also generally more useful if its item has been knocked off compared to chomp as it doesnt rely on helmet to check physical attackers.
Tl;dr defensive lando t is as viable as tankchomp in this meta and should be placed in the same rank.
A few responses:
Def Lando-T is fine in the same rank as Tank Chomp. It can force out things Garchomp can't with Intimidate, plus it can still run rocky helmet to get some residual damage off on physical attackers. U-turn is always beneficial for the balance teams def Lando-T ends up on, and it boasts a higher attack stat than Chomp too. Now all of this does come at the expense of being much slower and giving Bish a +1 boost, but you usually have room for a Bish counter on balance anyway. Typing comes into play too, but both have useful resistances to play around with.
I see 0 reason to run NP Hoopa cause its not really setting up on much with its low speed, and part of what makes it threatening is its mixed offensive presence.
Defensive utility Gliscor was meant to encompass sets that did not run Taunt and/or SD. Something like SR / U-Turn / EQ / Roost. Not really an optimal set, but a set nonetheless.
Yes please don't encourage people to run offensive Mew. Get rid of it.
A few of my own noms:
Unaware + Calm Mind Clefable to A-. Unaware CM Clef is just very much inferior to MG + CM variants. The only things Unaware CM helps beats are CM + Psyshock users (Slowbro, and uh, Latios?), and the occasional mon that can boost faster than Clef (TG Mana, SD Gliscor, NP Celebi?). However, a lot of these are waters that run Scald, so Clef has a really hard time winning in the long run. Unaware Clef really just kinda needs Heal Bell.
SpDef Excadrill to B-. This one is based off the placement of another slow-ish defensive spinner - Tentacruel. Cruel's spinner set currently sits in B- and there is no way that Drill's Spdef set is better than that. You also just don't really see it often any more, so it may not even warrant a ranking.
Ebelt Keldeo should be removed. It's a relic of the past, and CM variants could also encompass sets that run more offensive items like LO or Ebelt.
For the love of god, can we please get rid of Choice Band Talonflame. I've been asking for this for a long time, and I will keep asking for it. CB Talon is just a completely trash set. 4x Rocks weakness + 2 moves that deal recoil + plenty of fat shit running around to take a hit = no thank you. Please, I implore you, bludz.
Combine M-Gyara's sets. This is just based on how the sets kinda function the same aside from being able to set up on/sweep a few different select mons. At the very least, I think several of us would agree that M-Gyara w/o a third attacking move is considerably less threatening, so that could warrant the sub/taunt set moving down to A-. The same situation is pretty much true for regular Gyara too, so those sets should also be combined.
Remove AV Kyu-B. Not 100% sure on this one, but the times I've run this set, I have found myself wondering why I'm not just using a bulky 3 attacks + roost set. Rocks weakness is also a major downer, and you don't gain all that much by running a single extra move (usually iron head, hp fire, or dclaw/outrage).
Poison Heal Loom should be above sash. TBH, I would put sash in B and Poison Heal in B+. Constant passive healing + status absorbtion + just the right movepool makes Poison Heal Loom a pretty good breaker against slower teams. Sash struggles in a hazard centric metagame and the the usefulness of spore oftentimes relies on the luck of when the opponent wakes up.
Last, I think Scarf Togekiss should go up to B+. It's actually pretty unique for a scarfer as it has an expansive movepool coupled with a useful set of resistances. Not to mention it can still reap benefits from Serene Grace + Air Slash and can even Trick its scarf onto something like a Clefable, nullifying it for the rest of the game.
Yeah for me I just really don't like Defensive Lando-T being in the same rank as bulky Chomp, which is far more dominant + arguably more useful than Lando-T as a bulky rocker at the moment. I understand that Lando-T and Chomp check different things + abilities come into play vs certain shit more than others, but I personally think offensive rocker Lando-T is just so much more useful in the meta over full defensive. It just hits so damn hard, can pivot into shit despite the less investment in bulk, and just overall a lot more pressuring so it's harder for shit to set up on it. Not saying defensive Lando-T is bad or anything, but offensive rocker Lando-T just seems a lot more useful in general, while rocky chomp is seen as the more reliable bulky rocker in the current metagame. I think it fits perfectly in A personally.
Quick nitpick on this thread: could you be a little more consistent as to how you're labeling the pokemon in the list? Mega gyarados is simply listed as gyarados, unlike most of the other higher megas (who, incidentally, have unviable non-megas), and most of the a- and below don't have names. I think that just sprites works just fine because most people can recognize them. I think that it'll look fine either way, but I just think it should be consistent.
Yeah I started naming them and didn't finish. Sorry I'll be working on that.
theurbandear so you're in the group and I don't wanna do all our discussion out here in the thread but I do have a couple responses to your post.
I'd like to first speak about SpD Excadrill to B-
Excadrill is an A+ rank pokemon. We touched on this in the Skype convo but I'm curious at what point do we still label sets for mons when they're so many subranks below? Like if a pokemon is A+ rank should we really be listing a C+ set? Even a B- set? I'm inclined to say anything more than 4 subranks (A+ to B, A to B-, etc) is hardly worth giving a set to. That said SpD Excadrill does have viability as a set but I agree it's honestly pretty bad. So it's not that I'm opposed to dropping it to B- but like what's the precedent for how low a set can be compared to the mon?
Ebelt Keldeo I'm down to remove. Never really cared about AV Kyu-B either. If someone wants to weigh in on that it'd be cool.
Band Talon I've been strongly opposed to removing just based on the fact that it's actually an effective set. Like yeah SD is better a lot of the time and really solid builders aren't going to incorporate CB Talon into their builds a lot of the time but the legitimate late game cleaning / revenging power of this set is real.
For example Mega Diancie is no longer a hard check as it can't even switch in:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 108-128 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO -- guaranteed with SR up
If there is truly a lot of support for removing this set then I can start to give it real consideration, but I think CB Talonflame is a better set than SpD Excadrill for example which is often the result of a teambuild trying to cover too many problems at once.
Unaware CM Clef is an interesting nom, not entirely sure how I feel about it but do agree that MG is significantly better. Kinda disagree on Loom but I haven't used much Sash or PH (fan of LO personally).
Those are some good nominations though and I would be interested to hear community input on them.
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