Sig Items balancing

[Frosty]

I actually find Plume fossil a good item. Dunno, it is just that Archeops have lovely stats, so its item is simply removing the weakness and boosting the stat that is usually nerfed to boost speed. Or you can play Leethoof and have a physically defensive Archeops, which is at least amusing. I would like to see other people's opinion on this. But still, 5/3/4/3/127 (or 5/4/4/2/127) is very nice + low energy costs for below 50% hp. Personally I prefer it than 6/2/4/3/127 with +1bap to rock/flying (so effectively 7/2/4/3/127) with it becoming 4/2/2/3 (or something) below 50% hp. Specially when a gyro ball from mostly anything will remove around a quarter of archeops's hp.

Pure Incense I agree. Mostly because Chimecho has Heal Bell. And it has 17 brt (or something like that) so it deserves a very good boost. If we deem the cleanse tag part as useless (a fair assumption imo, as it is wasted on chimecho), the +1spa/spd isn't as good as +2spa and +2bap to psychic attacks. Again, IMO.

So I am including Pure Incense. For Plume Fossil I prefer to wait a bit more.


This part will finish Saturday Night (I will tally everything and move forward 120h from now). Please post until then.

 

[Gerard]

I think we should just standardize fossils and stones.

Fossils seems to be [+1 arbitrary stat] + [Ability related interaction] but this is a broad assumption considering the only one considered universally good for what I can see is Armaldo's (which has TWO "ability" boosts as it activates swift swim and raises claw moves) while every other one is in the list for being too weak (since the stat boost is useless or the ability boost is below average.

Same with stones, the majority of them follow suit with them being [+1 Highest Stat] & [Ability related interaction]. Again, what ability gets boosted seems largely arbitrary and as Frosty has pointed out, this leaves a bunch of mons out of options since they are unable to use rare candy as they might prefer.

To me this seems to be largely the fault of the arbitrary selection of which stats and abilities get boosted, so if a majority of fossils ans stones are found to be underwhelming the I say look at the ones that aren't (dusk stone comes to mind) and remodel the other stones to follow suit.

 

[deadfox081]

I kind of have to agree that we are much better off looking at a bottom up approach to exactly how signature items are developed rather than just adjusting the existing ones. We need to decide whether they are intended to mimic Rare Candy or Link Cable or have their own effects entirely. I think the best thing to do is start with Link Cable/Soothe Bell and decide if we think this is fair in comparison to Rare Candy, then we work on the other items in reference to either Rare Candy or Link Cable. I have no problem with more unique boosts as opposed to the STAB BAP increase of Rare Candy but we need to put the work in to ensure these are not completely overshadowed by Rare Candy. Also we need to decide whether the highest two (or 3 with ties) BST increase of Link Cable is in equal power to Rare Candy. Then if we decide this is the case we need to reconsider if things like incenses need additional effects on top of these base stat increases. Also obviously Fossills need looking at. These were introduced in the latter days of word of god and hence are way out of the norm of other items. In some cases this results in them being much better than Rare Candy (Archeops) and in others somewhere between worse and who knows where.

Basically I suggest we approach this in the following order:

Link Cable/Soothe Bell
Evolutionary Stones (including eeveelution items)
Incenses
Fossils
Single mon unique items (full remaining list: Dubious Disc, Electrizer, Lucky Punch, Magmarizer, Oval Stone, Prism Scale, Protector, Reaper Cloth, Up-Grade, Charged Stone)

This way we can approach directly comparable items at the same time. I am fine with some of these groups mimicing Link Cable as they currently do (incenses) while others appear more like Rare Candy. This may either require bringing Dusk Stone back into the equation or using is a benchmark like Gerard suggested. However I feel Dusk Stone is a bad benchmark since it gets most of its usefulness due to 2/4 of the FE mons who use it being able to get more than 1 stat raised.

 

[Frosty]

Including Metal Coat on the list of items needing boost. it has the following effect: If held by Onix, Scyther, Steelix or Scizor, it increases the Pokemon's Defense by one (1) rank.

And I don't think any of those mons need extra defense. Or better: the ones that could use extra defense won't use the extra bap for steel moves. I suppose at least exchange defense with attack?

 

[Matezoide]

Definetly agreed on Metal Coat. If theres one mon that does not need the extra defense, it is the Onix line.




Speaking of fossils, i believe we should take a look at Helix Fossil.


''Swift Swim is activated, regardless of Weather. Weak Armor does not lower Defense when activated. Increases Attack by one (1) Rank.''


For starters, Omastar's physical movepool sucks, and his actual attack stat is even worse. Perma Swift Swim is sweet, but Weak Armor's speed boost is redundant most of the time.


I really think we should make Helix boost Sp.Attack or Sp.Defense instead. Maybe we could also get rid of the Weak Armor effect and, instead, give it a boost to Rock type moves, for Ancientpower?

 

[Frosty]

Items too weak:

• Dawn Stone
• Fire Stone
  
• Leaf Stone
  
• ThunderStone
• Shiny Stone
• Water Stone
  
• Dragon Scale
  
• Dubious Disc
• Electirizer
  
• Fairy Tech
• Full Incense
  
• Luck Incense
  
• Sea Incense
• Pure Incense
  
• Oval Stone
  
• Prism Scale
• Reaper Cloth
  
• Armor Fossil
  
• Cover Fossil
• Dome Fossil
• Helix Fossil
  
• Jaw Fossil
• Root Fossil
  
• Sail Fossil
  
• Kings Rock
• Metal Coat

This means that we gotta work on:

Stones: Moon (Strong on musharna), Dawn, Fire, Leaf, Thunder, Shiny, Water (all weak on something). Aka just not Dusk Stone and Sun Stone.
Incenses: Rose, Rock, Odd (all strong), Full, Luck, Pure and Sea (all weak). Just not Lax and Wave Incense.
Eeveeitems: Fairy Tech (and some stones on some eevolutions arguably). Moss Rock, Ice Rock, Solar Ray and Lunar Ray were deemed fine.
Fossils: Armor, Cover, Dome, Helix, Jaw, Root, Sail. Claw, Old Amber, Plume and Skull are fine.
Other items: Dragon Scale, Dubious Disc, Electirizer, Oval Stone, Prism Scale, Reaper Cloth. Deep Sea Shit, Light Ball, Lucky Punch, Magmarizer, Powders, Protector, Sachet, Stick, Thick Club, Whipped Dream, Up-Grade, Charged Stone, Odd Keystone.
Items sig for some and common for the rest: King's Rock and Metal Coat. No parameters.

I will still let people suggest changing to the list, while we work on each specific category. When the category is finished, you can't touch it anymore.

Following the suggestions of Gerard and deadfox081, I suggest we tackle on the following orders:

1) Eeveeitems (aka just fairy tech): Only 1 and the logic behind it is clear. Should be easy.
2) Items sig for some and common for the rest. Only 2 and they seem to be easy fixes.
3) Fossils. All are weak and the logic behind is solid, so it also should be easy.
4) Other Items. Only 6 items.
5) Incenses. 7 items, some too good and some too weak and some obey a logic (+2 stats and something) while some others don't (see full incense).
6) Stones. 7 items that affect a gazillion mons -_-.



- - - -

Also I forgot to include Mega Stones. Of those, I feel only Mawilite is too good (and none are weak). Reasoning is: Mawile doesn't get Huge Power before mega-evo, so there is no reason to boost it further. Unlike Medicham. Mawile has already intimidate and Sheer Force, so the extra attack to Huge Power is largely unnecessary.

Lemme know what you guys think. While we do the next step below.


- - - -

So, if we all agree, then let's begin with Fairy Tech.

All Eevee items do the following: they boost the abilities of the eevolution and the highest true stat. For Espeon and Umbreon they give a big boost to their main abilities. For Glaceon and Leafeon, they activate both their abilities at full force.

Sylveon's abilities are Cute Charm and Pixilate. We can boost Cute Charm and/or Pixilate. For Cute Charm we can make it work with mons of the same gender and/or mimic destiny knot and have it work forever. For Pixilate, we can boost bap of stuff or give the boost initially given.

My suggestion (and feel free to suggest other stuff, I just include suggestions so this moves faster) is:

Fairy Tech: Cute Charm affects pokemon of the same gender as well and infatuation induced by it lasts until the pokemon faints or switches out. Fairy Typed moves, either originally or changed by Pixilate, have their Effect Chance of Secondary Effects multiplied by 1.5. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.


turns sylveon into a very obnoxious little bastard, so it may not be advisable, so thoughts?

(ouch my wristle...)

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

Given that I'm indirectly responsible for this whole mess, I feel like I should've been more involved from the start, sry...

Anyways, I may post more later, but re: Fairy Tech: Attraction spam Sylveon can go die in a fire. Personally, I would much rather boost the Pixilate side of the abilities rather than the Cute Charm side, since I'd much rather lose to some dude spamming powerful Hyper Voices than lose because I got infatuated and haxxed to death (I call that one the Dogfish). I don't precisely mind the secondary effects part, given that out of Sylveon's commonly used Fairy moves only Moonblast has a secondary effect and it isn't even that broken. Given that RC would bormally boost Sylveon's Fairy STAB by 2BAP, I believe boosting all Fairy moves by at least 1BAP would be warranted. Something else that could be worth a mention would be to boost Draining Kiss by 1BAP, 6BAP is hardly game-breaking but the 75% recovery still makes up for it.

Just random thoughts I guess.

 

[Frosty]

We can always extend the pixilate boost to the moves originally fairy-typed and call it a day. That + more effect chance (the original way so moonblast jumps to the omfg so good level)? Dunno if it is (more than) enough

 

[Gerard]

What normal move does Sylveon has with a secondary effect? Only Moonblast benefits from the change for what I can see.
Eh, Infatuation is like Confusion. I don't see what how would it make different / more powerful than the pokemon we already have, which have access to Confuse Ray / Teeter Dance / Chatter / etc... and are much faster than Sylveon. Of course making it last forever is a whole other thing, I'm completely opposed to that. If you wanna boost Cute Charm then case it to always activate, or last infinitely (but not on same gender).

Gotta say though, that I believe the eevee items should come later, as we don't know how the Rocks will be done and if we change them dramatically, we're just gonna have to come back to tinker with the rest.

 

[Frosty]

Stones don't have good parameter. Eevee items do. It is best to finish eevee items and use them as parameters for stones.

 

[Gerard]

Then I believe that by choosing to base stones on Eevee items other than the other way around we're doing it wrong. The reason being we can't apply the [+1 Highest Star] & [Ability Boost] to ALL the stones without them being either underpowered (compared to RC) or becoming a total mess with half a dozen different abilities being boosted. Currently we have 4 common boosts that most signature items apply:

• [+1 Highest Stat]
• [+1 Second Highest Stat]
• [Ability Boost]
• [Base Power Boost]

Rare Candy / Everstone uses:​

• [+1 Highest Stat]
• [Base Power Boost]

If any signature item wishes to be better or at least equivalent to Rare Candy then we have to give them a boost that is equal or better than that of RC. However Signature Items have the second burden that they are tied to an specific pokemon, which means the user has a much more limited pool of users to choose from. If you wish to use that pokemon against similar pokemon with RC then you need to offer something beyond those other mons. Additionally unlike Rare Candy, where the large pool of pokemon generates a number of users that benefit a lot from it, this are, again, limited to group of pokemon, sometimes usually to a single pokemon.

With all that said I propose for all Signature Items to offer [+1 Highest Stat] + [+1 Second Highest Stat] as the base, and depending on the pool of pokemon available to the item, either [Ability Boost] or [Base Power Boost]. This helps with a problem with Fossils where many times they had to boost an arbitrary ability because their preferred offense was unavailable (since it wasn't the highest stat).

So for example. Faeries Tech boosts Sylveon's SpD & SpA by one rank each. Additionally to this we can give it a small boost to it's ability (since only Sylveon can use it, all FE Pokemon capable of using the item get the same abilities), which means we don't have to overdo it on the ability department since a small boost will be enough to make it a step above Rare Candy / Everstone.

The same train of thought would be applied to all items. We boost two stats and depending on the pool of pokemon and what all of them have in common we provide an appropriate boost that applies to all pokemon (ex. Fire Stone boosting Fire Attacks by 2, Water Stone boosting Water Attacks, etc....). We could even use the ability boosts to help the really weak pokemon since those boosts are a lot more specific and help us target who will be the recipient much better, though that will come once we start with the stones one by one.

Now, this shouldn't be absolute, especially if we boost a pokemon that is already strong, an example would be Dawn Stone, If we were to apply the 2 highest stats boost then Gallade gets an extra Special Defense rank and Froslass, the one actually needing of help, doesn't get anything more. Thus it seems to me that Dawn Stone should be left alone (or twitched with it's effect slightly instead of wholly revamped)

 

[Frosty]

Balancewise having everything follow what you said makes sense. Flavorwise it is very very dull. Personally I don't like that. If we wanted strictly balance we would just make one sig item only wigh yhe same effect for everyone.

Also I am not looking for a perfect balance. So I dont really care with an item having a gazillion mons affected. I am aiming so that every mon has a boost measurable to standard rare candy. Even if it means that some mons get more fortuitous boosts (think sableye and kecleon). For stones my parameter of minimum power is eevee items since they are balanced and mess with abilities as opposed to stab. If I were to begin with stones, aka the category without parameters, this would be done pretty much blindly. Which is undesireable.

 

[Its_A_Random]

"Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised."

Just change this to: "Increases the Pokémon's Special Defense by one (1) Rank." In both cases the SpD stat is boosted by Fairy Tech so the above can be simplified into this.

That is until we decide to change the rank boost anyway...

 

[Gerard]

As I said, use the boost as the base and then twitch it for flavor for every pokemon or group of pokemon. But make it so the base effect (as in, the effect that will benefit every member that can use it) is applicable to all of them (which only base stat boost accomplishes among all pokemon) and then add little bonuses for weaker mons or flavor (like Sun's Stone boost to Sunflora).

 

[Frosty]

That will be done. All items will be one stat raise + general ability-based effects + specific abilities effects for balance. The only difference is that Stones will work with high true stats, Fossils with a semi-random (but useful) specific stat and Incenses with 2 stats. But they will all start with stat boosts and then ability boosts for balance and maybe specific bap boosts if I can't get everything to the level I want.

But now seriously, if we derail the discussion to discuss how we will handle the process, we won't ever end.

As far as Sylveon goes, there are some normal moves that eevee gets and have secondary effects. That being said, those are like...secret power and headbutt. And those can die in a fire.

So I am proposing something different.

Suggestion:

Fairy Tech - Causes Moonblast's secondary effect to always activate. Increases the Pokemon's SpD by 1. Boosts BAP Boost from Pixilate by 1 and causes it to be applicable also to moves originally Fairy-Typed.

It ends up being a funny thinge for moonblast + +1bap on pixilate moves and +3bap on Moonblast and Draining Kiss and + 1SpD. Rare Candy would cause +1SpD and +2BAP on fairy, so it should be close enough. And since Draining Kiss is a kickass move, having it gain +3bp is actually much better than it initially seems (it gets almost as strong as Megardevoir's Draining Kiss).

- - - - - - - -

Since almost no one is commenting I thought I might as well move forward. Next in line are King's Rock and Metal Coat.

My suggestions are:

King's Rock: All attacks used by the Pokemon that connect have a 10% chance to cause the opponent to flinch. Multi-hit moves have as many chances to flinch as hits made successfully. If held by Poliwhirl, Politoed, Slowpoke, or Slowking, it increases the Pokemon's Special Attack by one (1) rank and continuously activates Water Absorb and Regenerator, granting +2hp per action due to it for each ability.

So it is +1stat + leftovers. Leftovers would play the role of + stab. Since the holders are somewhat bulky it fits to me. Although Politoed might like some bland +bap to water moves instead since drizzle and all. Still, both mons are usually support so it might be better to boost their bulky as opposed to their strength.

Metal Coat: Increases the damage dealt by all Steel-type attacks used by the Pokemon by four (4). If held by Onix, Scyther, Steelix or Scizor, it increases the Pokemon's Attack by one (1) rank and grants the holder STAB on Steel-Typed moves, if they don't have it already.

Technically speaking Metal Coat is already a good item on Scizor and Steelix has life orb so it doesn't care. I exchanged defense for attack as it fits better and the second part is to boost Onix's Iron Tail/Head and Scyther's Steel Wing. So they are at least useable to some point.

 

[Frosty]

I am gonna interpret lack of comment as agreement. Let me know otherwise.

So fossils (this was done with dogfish44):

• Armor Fossil - Immune to damage from ball and bomb attacks. (Full List: Acid Spray, Aura Sphere, Barrage, Bullet Seed, Egg Bomb, Electro Ball, Energy Ball, Focus Blast, Gyro Ball, Ice Ball, Magnet Bomb, Mist Ball, Mud Bomb, Octazooka, Rock Wrecker, Seed Bomb, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Weather Ball, and Zap Cannon.) Increases Attack by one (1) Rank. Boosts BAP reduction from Sturdy by 1.

I suppose some extra sturdy is enough for starters? Since Solid Rock would be too much

• Cover Fossil-Swift Swim is activated, regardless of Weather. Increases Attack by one (1) Rank. The Effect from Swift Swim is doubled.

54 speed is still shitty. 108 is kinda acceptable

• Dome Fossil-Swift Swim is activated, regardless of Weather. Weak Armor does not lower Defense when activated. Increases Attack by one (1) Rank.

Why on earth would you want a 5 defense kabutops? -_-

• Helix Fossil - Swift Swim is activated, regardless of Weather. Weak Armor does not lower Defense when activated. Increases SpA by one (1) Rank.

WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU WANT AN ATTACK BOOST? -_-

• Jaw Fossil- Boosts Strong Jaw's Effect by 2 BAP. Increase accuracy on all moves by 10% (flat). Increases Special Defense by one (1) Rank.

All fossils had stat boost + ability boost + something. This had only something + stat boost. Also, the something (non-contact) boosts the moves tyrantrum won't use much (Stone Edge and Earthquake), thanks to boltbeam fang coverage and Head Smash.

• Root Fossil-Enhances Storm Drain to increase Special Attack by two (2) stages (adjusting the natural stage) when activated and to not redirect allies' attacks. Reduces the Energy Cost of HP Draining Attacks / Recovery Moves by one (1). Increases the healing done by Single-Burst Draining or Recovery moves (e.g. Giga Drain, Recover, Mega Drain, Absorb, Morning Sun) by 3hp and of Ingrain and Leech Seed by 1hp. Increases Attack by one (1) Rank.

Storm Drain is so minor that the boost is only there to be convenient. No one is gonna target cradily with water moves so it is only useful on doubles. Because of that we decided to increase the extra boost on healing moves to the point of making a difference.

• Sail Fossil - Boosts BAP Boost from Refrigerate by 1 and causes it to be applicable also to moves originally Ice-Typed.. Increases SpA by one (1) Rank.

Aurorus doesn't need attack, and Snow Warning lasting forever isn't that useful. So we decided to just copy sylveon here and boost refrigerate. Since that is the entire reason one would use aurorus.



Thoughts?

 

[Geodude6]

For Armor Fossil maybe we could have it increase Special Attack instead of Attack since that is where most of its coverage lies.

For Cover Fossil maybe make Swift Swim triple speed instead of doubling it like it is by default or quadrupling it like it is in your proposal. This would give Carracosta 81 speed in your example.

 

[Frosty]

We figured 82 wasnt enough to really make a difference. There is a lot of syuff between the both. Since this is a replacement for better stabs it is supposed to make a bang.

As for armor fossil, the main stabs are physical so went that route. Coverage is nice but to deal damage to most mons you will use the stabs. Stone edge and heavy slam are nice.

 

[Frosty]

btw. no response in more 24h will be interpreted as agreement.

 

[Leethoof]

campaigning for spa on bastiodon
flash cannon is better than heavy slam
stone edge is a bad move
other rock types are physical
make it boost ancientpower for no particular reason

also cradily doesnt learn leech seed

 

[Frosty]

OK, so let's do this: I will put Bastiodon Special or Physical emphasis under council voting. If special is chosen, we can revisit the entire thing.

Voting will be done together with other disputed matters. So let us continue.

Other items (with the help of Dogfish44 once more and of Texas Cloverleaf too):

- Dragon Scale: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. Increases the critical hit damage with Sniper from +5 to +7 on single attacks, +3 to +5 on two-hit attacks, and +2 to +3 on multi-hit attacks.

Rare Candy would give a similar boost. Also, Castform didn't break the game and knock off is too widespread. We can do that without much hassle really. Kingdra has a shitty movepool, so it won't really abuse this that much IMO.

- Dubious Disc: Holder doesn't incur in sluggish status. Hyper Beam has its accuracy increased to 100 and can now be combined with any special single target damaging move regardless of feasibility

Original effect is very very shitty. Since PorygonZ's main selling point is hyper beam, we decided to boost it, as doing so boosts normal moves as well as coverage through combos. Hopefully it doesn't break anything. Also, Giga Impact combos become more entertaining.

BTW there were some disagreement regarding the power of the last part, so let us know if you have doubts regarding it.

- Oval Stone: Increases the Pokemon's Special and Defense one (1) rank each.

No one will use this instead of Lucky Punch. And if we did the other way no one would use lucky punch over this. And there is also eviolite and...uh...blissey? Seriously, this is just so it isn't ridiculous. No one should bother with this.

- Reaper Cloth: Raises the Energy cost of all incoming attacks by two (2). Increases the BAP of Physical Ghost moves by three (3).

Levitate is useless and weird on Dusknoir. Considering Dusknoir's strongest physical ghost move is Shadow Punch at 6bap (don't laugh), boosting its physical ghost moves would not only be comparable to a rare candy boost, but also would cover a nice shortcoming without giving it access to phantom force smh

- Electirizer: Increases the Pokemon's Attack and Special Attack by one (1) rank each. The Base Attack Power of this Pokemon's "Punch" attacks is increased by one (1). (Known attacks affected: Bullet Punch, Comet Punch, Dizzy Punch, Drain Punch, Dynamic Punch, Fire Punch, Focus Punch, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch, Mach Punch, Mega Punch, Meteor Mash, Shadow Punch, Sky Uppercut, Thunder Punch, Power-Up Punch)

Immunity to Electric moves is iffy. While Iron Fist seems a lot for a mon that already gets 2 stat boosts, better Fire Punch/Thunder Punch means that the special movepool will be less used which means that the SpA boost won't be that good.

- Prism Scale: Increases the Pokemon's Special Attack by one (1) rank and the bap of Water-Typed damaging moves by one (1). Increases the Base Attack Power reduction of the Marvel Scale ability to four (4) BAP.

+2 to Marvel Scale and some offensive boosts. Milotic has little offensive options, so it might be better to do so, in order to make it less of a sitting duck. Also marvel scale is too unreliable to really be a nuisance.




Thoughts?

(72h before next batch assuming no discussion)

 

[Geodude6]

- Dubious Disc: Holder doesn't incur in sluggish status. Hyper Beam has its accuracy increased to 100 and can now be combined with any special single target damaging move regardless of feasibility

Fucking FREE HYPER BEAM. No, I don't like it one bit. P-Z Hyper Beam does 23 damage to a neutral target without an item, which is 3 more than Silk Scarf Tri Attack. How about we make Download boost by 2 stat stages, and let the user decide whether to boost Atk or SpA? (defaults to lower defensive stat on the opp if not specified) This would result in +4 final damage to the user's choice of either every physical or every special move, basically making it a superior +4 item. This is a nice step up from Silk Scarf in my opinion.

This is the only one that I take issue with; the rest are fine (except Oval Stone but nothing we do will make it not shitty)

Also, since I think we're at the proper point in this discussion, what do people think about letting Blissey benefit from Lucky Punch? And then later maybe we can make Luck Incense a special version of Lucky Punch? The reasoning here is that although only Chansey benefits from it in-game, only Clamperl benefits from DeepSeaTooth/Scale ingame but we changed them in ASB to also affect Huntail and Gorebyss respectively, and as it is right now Blissey is outclassed by its pre-evolution which is really quite sad.

 

[Frosty]

Better download means just a +2 final damage (since regular download is there). Silk Scarf is better at +4 and, more importantly, rare candy would be better at +3.5 (or +3 for modest) bap.

Spamming Hyper Beam isn't all that wise IMO. It is still an expensive move. And considering we have mons (think pyroak and snorlax) who can spam 13ish bap moves (with typings that can net SE hits) at will without considering boost of items, Hyper Beam spam isn't as dangerous as it seems to be.

Sure if there is enough debate, we can put it also under voting. Maybe limit those effects for HB/GI combos and add something else to it. idunno.


As for Lucky Punch blissey...I have no opinion on the matter. But DeepSeaTooth and DeepSeaScale aren't parameters, since they affect Huntail and Gorebyss because they are the items needed for the evolution into those mons, not because they boost Clamperl. The better comparison is with Light Ball, which would need to be extended to Raichu by that logic, since it is also overshadowed by Pikachu and the situation is pretty much the same, really.

 

[Frosty]

I am gonna put Dubious Disc into voting. There are still 24h for the other items, but I'd like to include one more item in this batch (that I kinda forgot before):

Mawilite: Allows Mawile to Mega-Evolve into Mega Mawile.

My proposal is to remove the +1atk part. There is no reason for it to be there: Huge Power is a new ability introduced by the mega (unlike medicham) and Mega Mawile is already allmighty powerful. I don't really care that ingame mawile is stronger than medicham, following ASB logic there is no reason for Mawilite to do anything other than induce mega-evolution.

Thoughts?

 

[Leethoof]

you speak the truth