[Gen6] CAP Viability Ranking Thread V2

[Exclaimer]

Togekiss is fine where it is imo. It's not easy to fit on teams over stuff like Clef or Sylveon, and also incredibly weak to most of A rank. Too much stuff can switch in on it (Megagross, Plasmanta, Mollux, Gardevoir, Talonflame, etc.) and force it out. That set really sucks because it's weak to the stealth rocks it gets rid of and struggles to do that in addition to Nasty Plot abuse.

Though it is a great special tank and paralysis spreader. B seems fine to me.

 

[BreloomMyHomie]

Volkraken: A- to A/A+

Volkraken is probably one of the greatest CAP mons out there. Offense gets threatened by Scarf Sets while balanced is very susceptible to the Specs set. Like seriously, what is switching into an Analytic Specs Hydro Pump/Fire Blast? It's switchins are limited: Only ones i can think of are Mega Latias and Chansey. You could say Mega Altaria, but they sometimes carry Flash Cannon. Gyarados? Power Gem. Volkraken is definitely a force to be reckoned with. I understand that Specs Volkraken's 95 base speed is mediocre, but with mons that can take on its checks and counters, this thing can run through your entire team no problem.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Volkraken is not without its flaws. While nothing particularly wants to switch into it, Volkraken doesn't have a ton on things it wants to switch into, especially with its vulnerability to hazards (the exception might be steel types like Scizor or whatnot, especially since Volkraken just eats up bullet punches). It also is pretty reliant on a choice item, which makes it easy to revenge in turn. If he gets locked into the wrong move then he's kinda set up bait, too. He's a great mon for sure, but I think A+ is a stretch.

I will say that some people may be underestimating the Specs Set though. On the lower ladder, scarf is more common, but on the higher ladder the two choice items are pretty equal and this last month I think specs edged it out a little bit. Taking a specs blow without proper prediction is pretty much fatal, and even with proper prediction you'll still take a pretty big hit.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

I usually prep my slower, bulkier teams for specs since its such a threat. While I find scarf to be more reliant as it can work as a great cawmodore check, as heal said, it relies so much on these choice items to function in the current meta, making it less scary.

While I do think volkraken is great, it's fine where it is

 

[Animus Majulous]

Yeah I agree that its terrifying to switch into, but because of its weakness to rocks and its inability to safely switch in on things unless you make a godly prediction, I think its fine at A-. I personally think the specs set is more threatening because slower balance and stall teams get rekt by the analytic switch in. I mean, Cyclohm gets 2 shot by hydro pump if it switches in to one analytic shot. But, there are many times that I wish I ran scarf or LO because being locked into a move and being slower or at a speed tie with common threats makes it not high A or S.

 

[cbrevan]

After looking over the posts in this thread, the council has decided over these changes:
Manaphy A to A+
Togekiss B to B+
Mega Pidgeot C+ to B-
Celebi added to B-
Naviathan added to B-
Azelf added to C

Furthermore, we've decided that Volkraken is going to stay in A- for the reasons stated in the above three posts.

 

[Animus Majulous]

Where can I read where the council decided on Manapy to A+. I don't have much experience with manaphy, but from past history, its not been very good. I don't think its better than Volkraken, and as we kept Volkraken at A- I just want to know the reasoning behind the bump from A to A+ and why it was there to begin with. I guess you can use it as a sweeper, but asides from that I don't really see it having too much value. Is it because of rain spam?

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

It's because its bulky and has Tail Glow and ohlawdylawdy not the scalds, anything but the scalds, plus the great coverage options (not even Mollux is safe).

 

[sparktrain]

some bits from the Manaphy discussion

I think Manaphy to A+ is reasonable, it's a known monster to stall/balance and requires the use of a small handful of mons to not lose outright (Goth, Mollux, Ferro, Unaware Clef) and even then it has ways to get past said checks (HP Fire, Burns, CM Rain Dance). Its still has a tougher time against offense but not complete crap speed and Scald gives it some weight. Its certainly not as good as in OU but its still a pretty massive threat, especially when the meta in general is still geared slightly towards balance.

manaphy, I do support this moving up, maybe it's because I'm constantly pairing this with auru or pursuit colo but the prevalence of mollux/manta aren't quite as big of an issue as people make it out to be. The fact that manaphy can be custom tailored to fit a team and has a bunch of viable possible set combos, including water/ice/grass/psychic coverage as well as rain dance to pick and choose what beats it (rd+surf+rocks or rd+scald burns can even put the pressure on unaware clef!), is a display of its versatility, not 4mss in my eyes given that they're all quite viable in their own right.

All in all, Manaphy is a very threatening and effective anti-balance mon thanks to its unique combination of Tail Glow, coverage, and good bulk/typing, which is quite valuable considering the current metagame tends towards balance. On several common balance builds, there exists a fairly exploitable over reliance on mons like Unaware Clefable, Mollux, etc (as mentioned in the above quotes) to check Manaphy, which Manaphy can oftentimes overcome simply by tweaking its moveset, or, by pairing it with LO Illusion Aurumoth, one of Manaphy's most effective wallbreaking partners. Manaphy obviously can't sweep against more hyper offensive teams, but hyper offense is a more uncommon archetype than balance at the moment, and Manaphy still has a decent Speed tier, bulk, and typing as well as Scald to help it pull its own weight in this matchup. And of course, Manaphy will most certainly pull its own weight and more against balance and stall with very basic team support. For these reasons, we felt that Manaphy was fit for a rise to better reflect its current effectiveness in the metagame.

 

[~BLOOM~]

Pyroak A to A+ imo

Why i think this: Pyroak is an excellent mon to slap on a team and (with hazard control) automatically disregard huge threats in the meta rn such as Mega Alt, Mega Gross, and Colossoil. As described by it's concept, Pyroak is also an excellent user of leech seed due to STAB fire moves that obliterate any switch-ins.

 

[Exclaimer]

Pyroak is too heavily pressured by Tomohawk, Talonflame, Diancie, Stratagem, and can't wall stuff as reliably when it takes so much from Stealth Rock. This is very detrimental for a wall, as Tomohawk and Stratagem are extremely common, and Stealth Rock even more so.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Could we not? He's a great wall but his bulk is compromised by hazards. Pyroak isn't even a terrific seeder, and often forgoes it as a move in favor of roar or coverage or whatever. He struggles with Tomo, Clefable, Talonflame and is set up bait for a few more things.

I mean he's a good wall for sure, but A+ is too much of a stretch.

Somewhat ninja's by exclaimer, but eh.

 

[MQJinx]

Noivern for Removed

Is there any reason to use Noivern over stuff like Tornadus-T, Mega Pidgeot, Lati@s, or even Crobat? Noivern suffers from a weak special attack, while Tornadus-T, Mega Pidgeot, and Lati@s have more offensive presence (and Pidgeot's Hurricane is more reliable), and Crobat is a better stallbreaker that has Infiltrator and U-turn due to its typing allowing it to check fairies. The only reason to use it was to revenge kill Greninja who is long since gone. It falls flat against bulkier teams and can only do anything against HO, which it still struggles against due to low power and frailty.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Is there any reason to use Noivern over stuff like Tornadus-T, Mega Pidgeot, Lati@s, or even Crobat?

Lewl at crobat. Mega Pidgeot pretty much has stolen Noivern's main niche though. The main difference is Noi can abuse infiltrator I guess. Not sure how much that's worth anymore though.

 

[heartofgold]

I've occasionally subbed Noivern in on rain teams, and I can say that Infiltrator Hurricanes are handy to have, though more often than not it's a surprise for an unsuspecting opponent more than a real weapon in your arsenal. While it is outclassed by M-Pidgeot for sure, it doesn't eat up your Mega slot, which is a pretty major point for it in terms of opportunity cost and team-building. Mega-Pidgeot's better than Noivern, but there are a lot of Megas that are better than Pidgeot.

The real killer is Tornadus-T, though. Infiltrator is inarguably worse than Regenerator, especially on a 'mon that NEEDS Life Orb to do any kind of real damage. Add that to the fact that Noivern's Dragon-typing is a liability more often than a boon, and you've got a recipe for being thoroughly outclassed. Of course, Noivern is low enough on both the Viability Ranking and Usage charts that removing it feels kind of ....whatever.

On the topic of other moves, I'd say Mega-Zard Y deserves a promotion to A rank. The existence of Stratagem definitely ruins its day in CAP, but the simple fact of the matter is there's next to nothing in the CAP tier that can safely switch in on the thing, especially when you're trying to figure out its coverage. Between the blasts, Fire and Focus, Solar Beam, and Dragon Pulse the thing can be absolutely terrifying. It can completely dismantle teams that aren't properly prepared for it, and it even provides some quality team support as well - sun isn't the game-changing force that rain is, but it definitely helps a well-built team (Volkraken, in particular, can do some major damage with Sun/Analytic FBs). It also should be said that the number and quality of spinners in CAP-tier completely dwarfs OU - I'm looking at you, Colossoil. While hazards are still and will always a big concern for Charizard, they're frankly much easier to clear in CAP, which only helps everyone's favorite sun-dragon.

 

[DJTHED]

M-Gallade A- to B+/B

Why is this so high? Is its 110 speed tier really that important in CAP? Honestly, I'm not sure why I'd use this over M-Lop or M-Cham, or hell, even Terrakion in some cases. Am I missing something? Unless there's a really good set I've not heard of or seen, I think this should move down. While its not complete garbage, and I understand it's dual stab is pretty valuable in this meta, but I seriously don't see it on par with the two megas I've stated before, who are also in A-, as well as stuff like Serperior, Tornadus-T, Thundurus, etc.

 

[Taliheim]

This thread has been dead, so I might as well try and resurrect it by reiterating what DJTHED posted above, in that I'm still questioning what metagame differences CAP has to make M-Gallade rise in viability. If anything, I would think the increase of Fairy-types in the CAP metagame hurt it, although dealing with Colossoil helps a bit.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Medicham is just much better. The speed tier doesn't make a difference in cap as the meta is pretty slow and the sheer immediate power it has make it be able to breakthrough whereas gallant needs a turn to sd

 

[cbrevan]

Gothitelle and Wobbufett have been removed due to the recent ban of Shadow Tag.

 

[BP]

Suicune C --> B

While Suicune is in the UU tier and only having pressure as it's abiliyt; it's understandable that it is in the C ranking... However it's way more viable then most people think. With base stats of SpD and Def of 115 he becomes a wall with several different purposes. Calm mind allows suicune to become an amazing setup sweeper capable of destroying phyisical attackers with scald such as Colo. Suicune makes a great defensive mon for the team.

 

[Exclaimer]

Manaphy to S

Manaphy is really, really good right now in CAP and has been for way too long to be A+. This thing breaks balance apart so easily, plowing through Tomo/Colo/Clohm cores with ease, which is 80% of balance. Its best set is probably Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Psychic, which can break through a lot of typical counters like Mollux and Plasmanta, who can deal with a lot of other waters (Thus clearing the way for Azu, Navi, etc.). Aurumoth's presence only makes Manaphy happier, and that core is absolutely devastating to every balance team in the tier.
Mega Sableye to S/A+

A- is a crime. That's absolutely atrocious considering how well stall does in this metagame, even with the recent banning of Gothitelle. Sableye is the only bulky Magic Bounce user available, it can spinblock against Colossoil (This is one of the reasons stall is so damn effective), it spreads burns like wildfire, and absorbs so many Pokemon that would otherwise trouble stall, like Mega Metagross. This mon is the cornerstone of almost every stall team (Does anyone else use stall?) and the rank ought to represent that.

Not to mention it has great utility in balance and certain hyper offense teams, especially Trick Room, which is the best use of Calm Mind sableye in my opinion.

Colossoil to A+

While perhaps the most splashable the and most used pokemon in the tier, I can't justify S rank for him. He lacks recovery, he lacks variety in sets with only two great sets unlike his nemesis Tomohawk, and he isn't quite as much a nuke as Char-X nor a setup sweeper like Altaria. He does hit hard, and he does have great bulk with Assault Vest and enough utility attacks to abuse AV well, but I find it on par with A+ rank monsters like Aurumoth and Cawmodore. He's just not S rank when the Pokemon that walls it so extremely well is in S rank as well, and other Pokemon such as Pyroak, Skarmory, and Gliscor are fairly common as well.

Mega Gallade to B

This thing is hard to even use when Mega Medicham exists. It's not that great of a setup sweeper when Cyclohm is everywhere to paralyze it or phase it out, and it's overshadowed by better physical sweepers such as Altaria, Char-X, DD Aurumoth, and Mega Pinsir. Its bulk is mediocre at best with a typing that lends it no favors, letting it be easily revenge killed by Talonflame, Azumarill, Cawmodore, Scizor, and many more after just a little bit of prior damage.

Krilowatt to B+

This thing has more super effective coverage than anything else in the tier, and this makes it surprisingly powerful despite only having 84/83 offenses. It's rather hard to switch into as well, making it quite effective as a support attacker and can even lure some things with Hidden Power Fire. However, it's not as fast as it wishes it could be, so Diancie and friends can revenge it. But all things considered, it's really powerful right now and is plenty good enough for B+.


I'll add more to this later when I feel like it

 

[BP]

Mega Sableye to S/A+

A- is a crime. It's absolutely atrocious considering how well stall does in this metagame, even with the recent banning of Gothitelle. It is the only bulky Magic Bounce user available, it can SPINBLOCK AGAINST COLOSSOIL (This is one of the reasons stall is so damn effective), it spreads burns like wildfire, and absorbs so many Pokemon that would otherwise trouble stall, like Mega Metagross. This mon is the cornerstone of almost every stall team (Does anyone else use stall?) and the rank ought to represent that.

Not to mention it has great utility in balance and certain hyper offense teams, especially Trick Room, which is the best use of Calm Mind sableye in my opinion.





I'll add more to this later when I feel like it

Agreed, Mega Sableye can be a major pain to deal with the right set. Not many pokemon can effectively disspose of Mega Sableye. Personally I'd put him at S because of it's ability to stall oppoents to tears.

 

[BreloomMyHomie]

I pretty much agree with everything exclaimer said on her post for the exact same reasons.

 

[Arcade]

I also Agree with Exclaimer, but I'd say move Krill to A-. That thing is evil for me to face with a decent speed tier, the infamout Magic Guard-LO combo and amazing coverage, Krill can come out and really hurt an unprepared team.

Manaphy should stay in A+ However. i think this because its low speed really cripples it and yes, whilst it has access to nice bulk and its +3 attack isn't something to laugh at, it gets beaten by a lot of bulky CAP mons who can come in on the switch like Haze Tomo, Plasmanta and Krillowatt, along with he fact that after some chipping, Tail GLow Mana gets hurt bu priority, especially Sucker Punch from an Adamant Colo (Do people still run that?).

I must add on the fact that Tomo is on almost every team, which means he's a one-stop counter for Colosoil forcing him to run pursuit to get any damage off on anything and he requires team support to get rid of that, now that the one-stop-answer Gothitelle is gone.

At the risk of my online rep. #BringGolthiBack

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

While Krill might be a bit under prepared for, it's not going to 6-0 any competent team. LO+MG is really nice for Krill but it has a bit of 4mss, every time I run it i find myself making room for Low Kick and Ice Shard so that I have ways of dealing with Colo while also having priority. I think a mixed set is best for LO+MG anyway with AV Colo being so popular. It's pretty good but I'm not sold on moving it up.

As for Manaphy, it works great by itself. Give it some rain support and it will 6-0 stall every time. Manaphy is very unique, especially for a water type, and has so many traits that set it apart from the rest of the water types that I can easily get behind an S rank for it. Its speed is slightly above average, but not amazing. It's stats are slightly above average, but not amazing. It's move pool has just enough to prevent its sweep from being stopped easily. It's ability could be better, but it's very useful if utilized vs bulkier more stallish builds which can go a long way for a special attacker. Not any of these traits make it an s rank threat, but the combination of these traits together are enough to warrant an s rank IMO.