CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 4 - Mega Ability Discussion

[Dogfish44]

2. To fans of Rattled or Compound Eyes, why are the more niche boosts from those abilities enough to justify Mega Evolving?

Because +100 BST is going to be a thing. Rock/Poison is terrible, but it does give us a backbone vs Fairy- and Fire-Types - which I think really wants to be the base for what the CAP does. When you have a negative as large as our typing, then any miss is going to hurt greatly - CE fixes this up. I'll also note that CompoundEyes allows for some of the coverage being hailed by Rock Head (Power Whip notably).

But even in general, given we're playing with low accuracy moves, we can compare the effective BAP of such moves over a long period by multiplying by their acc.

Borrowing DK's Comparison Table

Post STAB + Ability BP (Effect), multiplied by accuracy, factoring in SEness:

Adaptability:
Head Smash 240 (50% Recoil)
Gunk Shot 192 (30% Poison)
Stone Edge 160
Poison Jab 160
Rock Slide 135 (30% Flinch)

Sludge Wave 190 (10% Poison)
Power Gem 160

No Effect on SE Coverage.

---

Rock Head:
Head Smash 180 (No Recoil)
Gunk Shot 144 (30% Poison)
Stone Edge 120
Poison Jab 120
Rock Slide 90 (30% Flinch)

Sludge Wave 142.5 (10% Poison)
Power Gem 120

SE Coverage: (Drawback-Free, 100 Acc)
(Light of Ruin lol 252)
Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz/Brave Bird 240
Wild Charge 180
Submission (lol) 160

---

Sheer Force:
Head Smash 180 (50% Recoil)
Gunk Shot 187.2 (No Addt'l Effect)
Poison Jab 156 (No Addt'l Effect)
Stone Edge 120
Rock Slide 131.625 (No Add'tl Effect)

Sludge Wave 185.25 (No Addt'l Effect)
Power Gem 120

SE Coverage:
Flare Blitz (Seriously? Flare Blitz has recoil -_-'. 312, 50% Recoil)
Focus Blast 218.4
Play Rough 210.6
Earth Power 234
Crunch 208
E-Punches 195

---

CompoundEyes:
Head Smash 225 (50% Recoil)
Gunk Shot 180 (30% Poison)
Stone Edge 150
Poison Jab 120
Rock Slide 112.5 (30% Flinch)

Sludge Wave 142.5 (10% Poison)
Power Gem 120

SE Coverage:
Power Whip 240
Bolt Strike (lol) 260
Focus Blast 240 (We shouldn't really be running this since Steels should wall us really)
Play Rough 180

The difference in long-term damage is fairly negligible regardless of what you go for, but I feel that the consistency of CompoundEyes is highly useful, both as a check/counter to Fairy + Fire, but also in terms of general damage dealing.

---

Of Rock Head and Adaptability, I prefer the former - if you're going unreliable, might as well go for the unreliable nukes of Head Smash and Wood Hammer.

I think most the base form abilities are very much weaker - Water Veil, for instance, is evidently there just to absorb one burn before the MEvo. They're all better considered as secondary abilities.

Arena Trap is interesting as a way to strengthen our power vs Fairy- and Fire-Types, trapping most of them. I think that because we have a poor offensive typing, it could work.

Prankster is terrible imho. We lack the typing to use it (We'll get KOed way too quickly), but I also dislike the notion that "Poison-types get lots of great support" is an argument - CAP has never cared for flavour like that, so we could feasibly run *any* support.

 

[sparktrain]

I'll address a few of the abilities, notably the offensive ones (Rock Head, Adaptability, Sheer Force)

Rock Head is an ability I'm very much in favor of for several reasons already stated; it gives CAP21 the ability to viably run a very strong STAB move in Head Smash thanks to the negation of recoil damage, not to mention it also opens up the door for running coverage options with recoil more safely. Along these lines, I noticed that YellowAdminSilver brought up the possibility of Magic Guard as an alternative to Rock Head earlier, but it didn't receive much discussion, so I'll try and analyze it a bit here. All in all, it's indeed a better version of Rock Head. Looking at the features of this ability as a whole, Magic Guard prevents indirect damage (including recoil damage from its own attacks and Life Orb, entry hazards, Burn/Poison, Leech Seed, and Sand/Hail). Seeing as this would be the mega ability, negating Life Orb recoil obviously doesn't affect Mega CAP21. CAP21 is already immune to being poisoned courtesy of its Poison typing and won't enjoy absorbing burns anyway, seeing as Magic Guard doesn't prevent the Attack drop. CAP21 is also already immune to Sand courtesy of its Rock typing, and the Hail immunity is barely relevant. So essentially, the main advantages of Magic Guard over Rock Head in terms of Mega CAP21 boil down to the added immunity to Leech Seed and entry hazards. Both of these immunities serve to strengthen CAP21's longevity and make it less prone to being worn down by switching in over time, especially in the case of entry hazards. The base form has Regenerator to keep itself healthy even after repeatedly switching into Stealth Rock and/or Spikes, and though Rock Head does help CAP21's longevity in terms of its own recoil moves, the added insurance against entry hazards would help ensure that Mega CAP21 doesn't find itself worn down too quickly in comparison to its base form, and helps provide an added incentive to running the Mega form in this regard. Overall, Magic Guard = Rock Head + an added buffer to CAP21's longevity, and due to the combination of this being a Mega ability and CAP21's typing, I don't feel that it would necessarily be "too good" in the context of CAP21. It's worth consideration. Of course, Rock Head would still be a very acceptable path to choose, as it's toned down from Magic Guard and would provide a bit more freedom when it comes to later stages such as Stats.

As far as Adaptability and Sheer Force go, I could probably put my support behind either one at this point, as I think the goals of both are actually quite similar even if the mechanics and method of both are different, which is giving CAP21 a significant power boost to muscle past the Pokemon it threatens much more easily while still being able to leave a dent in its switch-ins (also providing incentive to using the Mega over LO Base). Taking a look at some other abilities brought up previously, I also still enjoy Sand Stream if we opt for a more solid defensive ability that plays to a strength of the typing, though it seems as though some others have mixed feelings about having this as the mega ability. Many of the other previously mentioned abilities I don't feel will be utilized nearly as well with CAP21's Mega, especially considering CAP21 has such a great base ability in Regenerator that threatens to overshadow these options.

 

[snake]

Again, I like Rock Head/Magic Guard for mega, but I'm wary of allowing recoil moves for base form since it can heal the recoil damage with Regenerator. Would CAP21 just use Band (or Life Orb), use (most likely) Head Smash or another recoil move instead of Mega Evolving to get rid of the recoil? It's kind of a dumb question, but I feel like we should consider the possibility still. We have an example of an offensive Pokemon who uses Regenerator: Mienshao. While it uses it to mitigate Life Orb Recoil and not recoil-move recoil, I feel like we should take this point into account before we dive into recoil-moves.

 

[WhiteDMist]

If we're looking at pro-concept abilities, I actually believe Sheer Force looks worse than Adaptability and Rock Head. Rock Head might open the CAP to other recoil moves, but the list of viable ones is pretty small anyways: the ability to use the strongest Rock attack safely makes it pro-concept in the first place. With Adaptability, ONLY the STAB moves get boosted: that means you can get to a certain power level that a higher offensive stat would reach WITHOUT having to reach that stat and, most importantly, the offensive limitations of the typing are laid bare. As noted, a Head Smash is actually stronger than an Adaptability Stone Edge or the like. That means that Steel-types would retain slightly more defensive ability against this CAP, and many Ground-types as well.


Sheer Force does boost almost all Poison-type moves, but it only boosts Rock Slide and Ancient Power: even worse, it boosts a huge list of other moves. How is that focusing on the strengths and weaknesses of the typing? With a variety of coverage moves that are boosted by Sheer Force, you can easily afford to forgo a STAB move to hit something specific, or even run an all-out-attack set: good-bye utility counter. Sure, the community can be extremely careful in the movepool stage, but that is a lot of moves to have to analyze to make sure that the STABs remain appealing. This would be a lesser issue if the community decides that we would rather an offensive CAP than a utility counter, in which case, Sheer Force is fine.

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

Sheer Force does boost almost all Poison-type moves, but it only boosts Rock Slide and Ancient Power: even worse, it boosts a huge list of other moves. How is that focusing on the strengths and weaknesses of the typing?

I couldn't agree with this more. Since we're focusing on CAP's typing, giving a significant boost to most of its coverage moves seems pretty unfair, and as WhiteDMist points out, it does little for CAPs Rock-type STAB attacks, outside of Rock Slide.

I truly believe that CompoundEyes is the way to go here. As it's been pointed out, Stone Edge and Gunk Shot are basically mandatory for physically attacking Rock-type and Poison-type Pokemon, respectively. CAP will be relying on the power and, ergo, inaccuracy of these moves; CompoundEyes does the best job of compensating for the lack of accuracy, making Stone Edge and Gunk Shot reliable options for attacking, which CAP will need to be successful.

Rock Head is a problem for CAP as a process, and not as a Pokemon; even though it lets it use Head Smash and a few coverage options, it neglects to do ANYTHING for its Poison-type STAB, and I feel like an ability that doesn't produce positive effects for both STABs is anti-concept. Rock Head is good, but its anti-concept since it ignores CAPs Poison typing.

Adaptability certainly does its job in boosting CAP's STAB attacks, but honestly, it feels like cheating to me. Sure, it provides a solid power boost that CAP appreciates. But I feel like we're selling ourselves short if we choose it. "Oh, this typing sucks? Just power it up with Adaptability." It doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Ignus]

Alright, time for me to finally write the post that has been sitting in the back of my pants for the last few days; we've obviously hit a point where we need to make a decision between some very similar abilities and just listing the pros and cons, as it happens, is not as useful as we would like. Instead, lets talk about what our typing does well and how to properly augment it with an offensive ability.

I want to talk about our STAB coverage first, because I think it's important to realize how mediocre our STABs offensively synergize with one another (if you don't know how mediocre that is, it's about this mediocre). We actually don't have that great of offensive coverage with just Rock and Poison coverage, and so the chances of a solid player taking both of those moves on the same set without coverage are pretty low. Instead, what you're more likely to see is people trying to brute force their way through the enemy team by just pressing the same button over and over again. This is the same thing you see on dragon types. While their singular coverage isn't actually that strong against the OU metagame, it makes up for it with the brute force of moves like Draco Meteor.

Even though we know our STAB coverage is terrible, let's say we're running both of them, just for giggles. Let's list what move we're using against what types in an offensive situation:

Use Poison STAB when:

• Against a Fairy type
• Against a Grass type

Use Rock STAB when:

• In every other situation, because its effectiveness against the metagame is almost double Poisons, according to that Analysis I linked earlier in this post.

Even if our poison STAB does 20 extra base damage, Rock will still be the go-to primary STAB as its offensive presence is just so much more than poisons; and poison will almost always be just for removing fairies, as giving steel types a free switch in is bad for our health. In order to properly fulfill the concept, we need to be using the typing to its full potential. Putting spikes on the wet noodle that is Poison types offensive effectiveness is the opposite of this; we need to make our primary STAB do as much damage as it possibly can, and let poison do its job of giving us a plethora of useful resists. Does this mean we won't have a Poison STAB that does damage? No. In fact, you'll probably see it pretty often due to how much damage a STAB Gunk Shot or STAB Sludge Wave actually does. But does that mean you'll be seeing it as often as you see a Rock STAB? Probably not. 4/5 times people will being using a Rock move to nuke their way through the enemy team, and our ability should support that. It's not Anti Concept to just augment one STAB if the other's biggest advantage is its defensive boons.

With all of that said, out of all of the abilities that we've debated, Rock Head by far gives us the most consistent hard hitting STAB as an option. The ability to spam a move like Head Smash is by far the easiest and best way to pull offensive presence out of a typing with such terrible coverage and should be our go to Ability when we need to kick CAP up a few gears. The other abilities augment this 'nukeyness' too, but not nearly to the same extent that Rock Head does. Rock Head is what we should be going for and what we should stick with.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Out of the Rock Head/Adaptability/Sheer Force/Magic Guard fiasco, the one that's really piqued my interest is Magic Guard. Right now, we have a base form with Regenerator. That's a damn good Ability. If you look at most Mega Pokemon in OU right now, the Mega form generally has a much stronger Ability than the base form does. It isn't necessary for the Mega Forme to have a better Ability than the base form, but most viable Mega Pokemon don't downgrade their Ability when they Mega Evolve. While Rock Head and Sheer Force are likely weaker than Regenerator, Magic Guard is undoubtedly stronger. However, Magic Guard does patch quite a few weaknesses that our typing has, which runs the risk of being anti-concept. Rock/Poison isn't immune to Stealth Rock or Spikes, but Magic Guard patches those weaknesses anyway. CAP21 cannot abuse the Life Orb recoil protection with Magic Guard either, which helps to balance the Ability. To fans of Magic Guard, please defend why it's pro-concept and doesn't go too far in patching our weaknesses.

As always, keep suggesting and defending your Ability selections. I'm going to extend this stage a little bit and plan to wrap it up at 6:00 PM EDT tomorrow (Fri. Oct. 23, 2015), or in about 27 hours.

 

[noobiess]

I didn't have the time yet to read everything in this thread but have we ever defined what kind of Mega evolution we want?
In the beginning there was a short discussion about what we want to enhance (strength, extra immunities,...) but for me it seems very difficult to know that if you didn't define what kind of role your mega evolution will play.

If I look at the last post of the thread discussion, I see some problems CAP21 will face:
- Water-typed moves, or just water pokémon in general (Keldeo, Manaphy, Rotom-W, Politoed and Azumarill)
- Ground-typed moves from pokémon that CAP21 should threaten (Charizard, Kyurem and Altaria)(in lesser extent)

For this I see 4 options:
1) CAP21 can deal with this threats without mega-evolving, through stats (really high sp. def. to take scald), moves (electric-typed moves to kill the water-typed pokemon, magnetic rise,...). Mega-evolving just results in a stronger version without changing any defining characteristics.
a) The mega evolution overrules the base form and it becomes a no-brainer to always sacrifice your item slot for mega-evolution and use it in the first turn (f.e. Kanghaskhan)
b) The mega evolution offers more strength (either in defence or offence) but also downsides (losing regenerator or preferring an item)
2) Mega-evolution helps dealing with these threats, and so changes the dynamics and working principle of CAP21.
a) Mega-evolving helps against a frequently occuring threat; the ability is in general better
b) Mega-evolving is only beneficial for a very specific threat, and should only be used when it occurs

So my opinion on which ability to use:
in case of:
1a) Regenerator - This seems like the only option in this case. Regenerator is just so good for CAP21, that changing the ability would result in case 1b
1b) Rock head - Head smash without recoil will be very usefull to be offensive with loosing your defensive advantage. Iron barbs seems like a nice option too though...
2a) Cursed body - If we make CAP21 defensive enough to survive super-effective moves, this could be a great way to deal with water threats. But I wouldn't say this ability is in general better
2b) Magic Guard - Using this when burned, is a good option. But only for that I personally wouldn't mega-evolve. That why the no recoil-head smash becomes handy (making it a bit option 1b too).

When looking at these options, I don't see one option being more pro-concept then another.
Option 2 looks more interesting in general (changing the dynamics of a pokémon through mega-evolution is always fun) but certainly more of a risk. If you don't make it right and your pokémon can't deal with the listed threats (because you made the mega-evolution too weak to them, or let people prefer an item above mega-evolving) CAP21 will loose its ability to be a utility counter to the those threats.
I personally like the safest option 1a, so regenerator, because if regenerator isn't the ability of the mega evolution, I would probably just run it with assault vest or so (to deal with scald/hydro pump).

Ps: wow didn't expect to type so much -_-

 

[Alfalfa]

Alright, time for me to finally write the post that has been sitting in the back of my pants for the last few days; we've obviously hit a point where we need to make a decision between some very similar abilities and just listing the pros and cons, as it happens, is not as useful as we would like. Instead, lets talk about what our typing does well and how to properly augment it with an offensive ability.

I want to talk about our STAB coverage first, because I think it's important to realize how mediocre our STABs offensively synergize with one another (if you don't know how mediocre that is, it's about this mediocre). We actually don't have that great of offensive coverage with just Rock and Poison coverage, and so the chances of a solid player taking both of those moves on the same set without coverage are pretty low. Instead, what you're more likely to see is people trying to brute force their way through the enemy team by just pressing the same button over and over again. This is the same thing you see on dragon types. While their singular coverage isn't actually that strong against the OU metagame, it makes up for it with the brute force of moves like Draco Meteor.

Even though we know our STAB coverage is terrible, let's say we're running both of them, just for giggles. Let's list what move we're using against what types in an offensive situation:

Use Poison STAB when:

• Against a Fairy type
• Against a Grass type

Use Rock STAB when:

• In every other situation, because its effectiveness against the metagame is almost double Poisons, according to that Analysis I linked earlier in this post.

Even if our poison STAB does 20 extra base damage, Rock will still be the go-to primary STAB as its offensive presence is just so much more than poisons; and poison will almost always be just for removing fairies, as giving steel types a free switch in is bad for our health. In order to properly fulfill the concept, we need to be using the typing to its full potential. Putting spikes on the wet noodle that is Poison types offensive effectiveness is the opposite of this; we need to make our primary STAB do as much damage as it possibly can, and let poison do its job of giving us a plethora of useful resists. Does this mean we won't have a Poison STAB that does damage? No. In fact, you'll probably see it pretty often due to how much damage a STAB Gunk Shot or STAB Sludge Wave actually does. But does that mean you'll be seeing it as often as you see a Rock STAB? Probably not. 4/5 times people will being using a Rock move to nuke their way through the enemy team, and our ability should support that. It's not Anti Concept to just augment one STAB if the other's biggest advantage is its defensive boons.

With all of that said, out of all of the abilities that we've debated, Rock Head by far gives us the most consistent hard hitting STAB as an option. The ability to spam a move like Head Smash is by far the easiest and best way to pull offensive presence out of a typing with such terrible coverage and should be our go to Ability when we need to kick CAP up a few gears. The other abilities augment this 'nukeyness' too, but not nearly to the same extent that Rock Head does. Rock Head is what we should be going for and what we should stick with.

Gunk Shot still does heavy damage to most Fighting-types, bar Terrakion, Cobalion, and Lucario, all three of which are not difficult to account for. Keldeo is especially important, as not only can it can threaten us with a super-effective Water STAB, it is also a Pokemon we want our CAP to threaten, and not being able to hit it hard would be completely contrary to what we want to accomplish.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

It isn't necessary for the Mega Forme to have a better Ability than the base form, but most viable Mega Pokemon don't downgrade their Ability when they Mega Evolve. While Rock Head and Sheer Force are likely weaker than Regenerator, Magic Guard is undoubtedly stronger. However, Magic Guard does patch quite a few weaknesses that our typing has, which runs the risk of being anti-concept. Rock/Poison isn't immune to Stealth Rock or Spikes, but Magic Guard patches those weaknesses anyway. CAP21 cannot abuse the Life Orb recoil protection with Magic Guard either, which helps to balance the Ability. To fans of Magic Guard, please defend why it's pro-concept and doesn't go too far in patching our weaknesses.

First off, I'd argue that Magic Guard isn't "undoubtedly" stronger than Regenerator. Both are great abilities. That said, I do think it is very important not to have a mega ability worse than the base's.

If Water Absorb even got slated last time, then I don't see how one could argue that Magic Guard goes against our typing too much. Sure, it gives us leech seed and hazard immunities. I just don't see how this is any bit more anti-concept than Water Absorb... We're keeping the typing chart in tact. The hazard deal simply makes it easier to switch in and out with Magic Guard, which is something that Regenerator already helps with, too...

Magic Guard is undoubtedly better than Rock Head. If Rock Head isn't quite on par with Regenerator, then I think Magic Guard is the next logical option.

More of as a sidenote, I guess I'm not opposed to CAP keeping Regenerator either. Certainly the recovery is helpful, and it isn't quite as moveset-defining as some other abilities. I think Compound Eyes is entirely too poor of an ability. It's not a bad ability by any means, but it's just not good enough to replace regen. No Guard is a generically more powerful option if we get weird coverage moves, but that's still highly highly suspect. Stone Edge and Gunk Shot don't have absolutely crap accuracy, so I don't think wasting an ability slot to fix them would be that imperative.

Overall, I guess my biggest concern is making sure the Mega Ability is on par with or better than the base's ability.

 

[jas61292]

I'd like to second what HeaL just said about Magic Guard. Yeah, we are vulnerable to Spikes and SR, but that is not a notable feature of the typing. We are neutral to SR, so its not really a strength or weakness, and most Pokemon in the game are vulnerable to Spikes. Furthermore, between our natural immunity to Poison and our inability to hold Life Orb as a mega, we avoid two potential side effects of the ability. And while it won't help us power through burns, it does limit the damage they do, which could be a benefit.

Now, unlike HeaL, I don't really think we need to have an ability stronger than Regenrator. I mean, +100 to our stats can easily be a big enough upside with just a decent ability. But I definitely think Magic Guard is a fine option here. I don't know at the moment if I prefer it over Rock Head, but I think either one would be an ideal choice here.

 

[Octaazacubane]

I still think Adaptability is the closest to what we want to achieve here, although keeping Regenerator wouldn't be too bad. Rock Head and Magic Guard cater to Head Smash too much, limiting our other options. Similarly, Compoundeyes only benefits CAP21's physical stabs, and Sheer Force doesn't do much for its rock moves.
If we want to make the best of such a meh typing, CAP21 could really use the 1.33 boost to all of its stabs. I really don't want this to turn into a "spam Head Smash"-fest, and not be able to hit rock-resists hard enough.

 

[Alfalfa]

I still think Adaptability is the closest to what we want to achieve here, although keeping Regenerator wouldn't be too bad. Rock Head and Magic Guard cater to Head Smash too much, limiting our other options. Similarly, Compoundeyes only benefits CAP21's physical stabs, and Sheer Force doesn't do much for its rock moves.
If we want to make the best of such a meh typing, CAP21 could really use the 1.33 boost to all of its stabs. I really don't want this to turn into a "spam Head Smash"-fest, and not be able to hit rock-resists hard enough.

Catering to Head Smash isn't that much of a bad thing because it does allow us to build on a strengths of our CAP's typing. In reality, our CAP's Poison STAB does not need to be powered up by Adaptability because it will hit all of its important targets (Clefable, Keldeo, Mega Lopunny) hard enough with STAB Gunk Shot without an Adaptability boost (there is STAB Sludge Wave, but our CAP's physical STABs are a lot stronger). Our CAP's main targets to break through are neutral to Rock-type attacks, and a STAB Head Smash is 12.5% stronger than a Adaptability-boosted Stone Edge, and such power increase is very helpful when hitting the likes of bulkier Rock neutralities like Mega Scizor, Slowbro, Skarmory, and Landorus-T.

If you are referring to Attack BST being too low, you do not necessarily need to worry about that right now, because not only is that not important right now, we will have done our calcs before determining a BST anyways.

 

[Octaazacubane]

Catering to Head Smash isn't that much of a bad thing because it does allow us to build on a strengths of our CAP's typing. In reality, our CAP's Poison STAB does not need to be powered up by Adaptability because it will hit all of its important targets (Clefable, Keldeo, Mega Lopunny) hard enough with STAB Gunk Shot without an Adaptability boost (there is STAB Sludge Wave, but our CAP's physical STABs are a lot stronger). Our CAP's main targets to break through are neutral to Rock-type attacks, and a STAB Head Smash is 12.5% stronger than a Adaptability-boosted Stone Edge, and such power increase is very helpful when hitting the likes of bulkier Rock neutralities like Mega Scizor, Slowbro, Skarmory, and Landorus-T.

If you are referring to Attack BST being too low, you do not necessarily need to worry about that right now, because not only is that not important right now, we will have done our calcs before determining a BST anyways.

Well, of course if we make our base atk anything we want, all that matters is the relative strength of our attacks. I just thought, since poison is already a niche offensive type, it would be more interesting if CAP21's poison-type moves (probably Gunk Shot) weren't overshadowed by Head Smash.
(It would also be interesting if it had incentive to use special attacks, but that's not that important)

 

[Korski]

I still believe Sand Stream is the best way to go for the mega ability. Unlike Adaptability, Sand Stream provides a boost that is unique and specific to Pokemon of our chosen Rock typing, putting it much more squarely in line with the concept. It also eases up our stat distribution a bit, which seems to be an adequate reason to support Adaptability and should probably apply here then as well. The tradeoff between Regenerator and Sand Stream when it comes to deciding whether or not to MEvo the CAP is between: 1) durability via 33% restored HP on switching turns, and 2) durability + power via a roughly 150-point stat increase and up to five turns of 6% extra chip damage. I think that’s a fair tradeoff.

The boost to SpD in Sand here is huge, plausibly greater in size than the boost provided by Adaptability (unless we give it stats to go mixed, which seems unnecessary), and it could help the CAP greatly with its most dire typing issue: switching into battle. Sand Stream also reinforces the threats list, as its chip damage can whittle away at all of the Flying, Fairy, Water, Bug, and Ice-type targets we selected in that stage (excluding Magic Guard Clefable and Overcoat Mandibuzz of course). Charizard and Talonflame especially hate sand, and the SpD boost allows CAP to take Charizard-Y’s Focus Blast much more easily, making it an even stronger check than it would be otherwise. Same goes for Mega Gardevoir and Tornadus-T. At the same time, Sand lacks any effect on the Steel and Ground-types that we’ve deemed to be threats to this CAP, so it is consistent on both ends. Whether it’s negating Leftovers, stacking residual damage in addition to whatever utility role(s) we give the CAP, or potentially turning 2HKOs into OHKOs or 3HKOs into 2HKOs on things like Manaphy and Keldeo, every aspect of Sand would improve the CAP in ways that only a Rock-type could be improved, which is why I think it is the clear choice for this concept.

I am struggling to see how making the CAP’s attacks stronger via Adaptability or Sheer Force does more to advance the concept than does Sand Stream. Simply making Rock and Poison attacks stronger (for no specific benefit) as our best exhibition of the strengths of those typings is really, to me, an admission that these typings do not actually have inherent strength, which I view as anti-concept. Surely we aren’t counting “having STAB moves” as an advantage belonging specifically to Rock and Poison-types, are we?

As for the others, Magic Guard / Rock Head support a strategy of spamming a singular STAB move, which I think is pretty limited in scope and off-track, imo, when it comes to constructing a utility Pokemon; however, they are both better than Adaptability in that Head Smash is more concept-oriented as an extremely powerful Rock-type move that doesn’t need to be artificially inflated to be effective.

Compound Eyes would probably teach us nothing (not missing with Stone Edge is better than missing with Stone Edge, noted), but it would certainly do a lot of good in thrusting Gunk Shot to the forefront of CAP’s movepool. A high-powered Poison-type attack in the same league as Close Combat and Flare Blitz, with a 30% Poison rate and no drawbacks whatsoever, in addition to the only reliable Stone Edge in the entire tier, would certainly make the CAP stand out by virtue of its typing. Compound Eyes is indeed pro-concept, but people will still use Gunk Shot and Stone Edge even if they miss from time to time, so I would consider this ability to be a pretty underwhelming choice.

tl;dr - Really, all of these abilities are “good” and would make the CAP more effective in battle; I just think it’s pretty clear that Sand Stream is the one that is most relevant to the concept, is best-suited for the utility direction we’ve chosen, and most strongly adheres to the threat list we’ve settled on, making it the best choice for this stage.

 

[escarlata]

As much as Sand Stream is 'conceptual' per se, there really isn't much of an incentive to mega into it unless it's +100 stat is extremely well allocated + it has an amazing support movepool. Otherwise Regenerator with Assault Vest is just going to end up accomplishing the same thing and better.

 

[Cretacerus]

What do we want our Mega Ability to accomplish?
Our base form already possesses the perfect ability for a pivoting role in Regenerator, allowing it to utilize the Rock/Poison typing's defensive perks in order to find switch-ins and positive match-ups multiple times a game. Therefore, I would like to see the Mega form primarily take advantage of our typing's offensive traits in order to set itself apart, and hopefully give us a more complete view on the typing. As of now, there are still a couple of things that our base form will have trouble dealing with without extraordinary offensive stats, the primary example being Water-types such as Manaphy which could set up on it and proceed to heavily threaten our balanced team. Giving our Mega the ability to deal with such threats offensively would be a vital advantage for the team, and give players much needed incentive to actually run CAP as a Mega form over the many other powerful options found in OU. Remember that for our Mega CAP to carve a niche as a viable offensive attacker it will have to rival and even outperform competition such as Mega Metagross, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham even with the handicap of being threatened by many common Ground and Steel types, meaning that a powerful offensive ability would certainly be appreciated when going this route.

Adaptability, Rock Head, Sheer Force:
People tend to look mostly at the power boost granted by Adaptability, but what this ability actually does is emphazise the importance of our STAB moves over potential coverage. While Adaptability does give us more flexibility when distributing that +100 stats, it is important to note that our actual offensive prowess will only be determined in the stat stage and is still completely open until then. The only binding effect it has is effectively cutting down the power of our coverage moves, which is arguably pro-concept in that it helps preserve our natural checks in Ground and Steel, and places additional importance on the unique STAB combination that defines our chosen typing. This is especially useful if we choose to go the special attacking route with the rather low powered STAB options, but certainly avoids distraction for a physical approach as well. A look at our threat list shows just how well Adaptability supports the role we intended this CAP to take:

Pokemon we want CAP21 to threaten:
Fairy-type Pokemon: including Altaria, Azumarill, Clefable, and Sylveon
Flying-type Pokemon who lack a secondary Ground or Steel type: including Charizard [all forms], Mandibuzz, Talonflame, and Tornadus-T
Water-types that don't threaten us with secondary STAB: including Keldeo, Manaphy, Politoed and Rotom-W
Other Pokemon naturally threatened by our typing that do not naturally threaten back: including Ice-types like Kyurem and Weavile and Bug-types like Scolipede and Volcarona

Pokemon we want CAP21 to be threatened by:
Ground-type Pokemon: including Excadrill, Garchomp and Landorus-T
Steel-type Pokemon: including Ferrothorn, Metagross, and Scizor
Psychic-Type Pokemon when they run STAB: Including Alakazam, Latios, and Slowbro

In my opinion, abilities such as Rock Head and Sheer Force don't complement our typing's offensive traits nearly as well as Adaptability does. Rock Head rightfully gained a lot of support for taking advantage of our Rock STAB effectively, but sadly neglects to utilize the secondary Poison STAB in the process which was clearly intended to be part of our offensive identity. There's not doubt that Rock will be the more valuable STAB for our CAP, but increasing its dominance over Poison even more to the point where the latter will be barely ever seen is not in line our concept, as far as I'm concerned. A recoilless Head Smash would run the risk of loosing sight of the offensive priorities we gave our typing, and proceed to threaten just about everything not resistant to it equally, making our final product rather one-sided and less insightful. Sure, a 150 base power STAB without drawbacks (courtesy of ability) is amazing, but we can't expect to learn much about our typing if all CAP does is press a single button throughout the game.

Sheer Force on the other hand is an ability that I've never really gotten behind of. While all the important Poison-type moves have secondary effects that trigger Sheer Force, the 30% effect chance of both Gunk Shot and Sludge Bomb coupled with their high base power is what makes them stand out among comparable moves (such as Ice Beam and Fire Blast), something that Sheer Force completely removes leaving only their suboptimal attacking type. Furthermore, the Rock-typing is hard pressed to even take advantage of Sheer Force, with only Rock Slide and Ancient Power benefiting from it, both of which are extremely underwhelming aside from their respective secondary effects. Sheer Force is one of those abilities which brings instant benefit to just about any type combination, but Rock/Poison typing is arguably one of the least effective wielders out there. This also risks our STAB moves being overshadowed by certain coverage moves which synergize a lot better with Sheer Force, necessitating noticeable restraint and limitation in the later movepool stage in order to avoid distractions from the concept.

Sand Stream:
I have to agree with Bughouse that Sand Stream lost a lot of the appeal it had as primary ability, which was providing our Mega form with a temporary Special Defense boosts on top of its inherent strength once a game, something that no other typing can claim to do.
As a Mega Ability, Sand Stream merely acts as a permanent stat boost, which has nothing unique about it when the same effect can be achieved by simply giving CAP higher stats (regardless of its typing). The only notable exception I can think of is the rare situation in which Sand Stream allows CAP to check an opposing sun team more effectively than it already does.
While a permanent Sand Stream is inarguably better than a temporary one and the reason many voters chose to preserve it for the Mega form, it loses the status of an exceptional boost, and just means that we would have to make compromises in other areas (most likely stats) in order to retain the same level of viability for the final product.

 

[Exclaimer]

As much as Sand Stream is 'conceptual' per se, there really isn't much of an incentive to mega into it unless it's +100 stat is extremely well allocated + it has an amazing support movepool. Otherwise Regenerator with Assault Vest is just going to end up accomplishing the same thing and better.

I think it's a given the stats are gonna be well allocated given how our process works. You forget the other benefits of Sand Stream as well; Removes opposing weather, chip damage, and support for Excadrill/Sand Force abusers. Assault Vest also prevents us from using moves like Taunt, Stealth Rock, Toxic, and anything else we give the CAP, which is quite important because a lot of our checks and counters aside from Steels hate Toxic and Stealth Rock is so darn useful.

I'm going to support Sand Stream because of how useful it is overall and the widespread effects it has.

 

[WhiteDMist]

After looking through all the abilities posted, I think retaining Regenerator as the Mega CAP's ability has not been touched upon enough. It offers incentive to Mega Evolve, and prevents the CAP from being worn down due to the lack of Leftovers. We've acknowledged that the CAP will having trouble staying in on many popular Pokemon, and even the ones that it is supposed to deal with will wear it down once it Mega Evolves. It does something similar to Magic Guard as well, where the CAP won't be as worn down by hazards or Burns, but still be affected by them. Realistically, outside of some great coverage and/or stats, the CAP should expect to have to switch in on something it counters, hit the predicted switch-in with the appropriate move, and then switch out. It can take one of these turns to instead use a utility move as well, but that's besides the point. It shouldn't be expected for the CAP to be able to stay in battle for long, even as a Mega form, with the typing it has compared to the metagame threats. Staying in the base form as long as feasible before Mega Evolving is a possibility that could diminish the value of Mega CAP having Regenerator: the base form could even find reason to use other items instead. The +100 BST boost usually makes up the difference, and the resilience against Knock Off is a good selling point.

Sand Stream is still one of the better options, and one I am really fond of. It gives the CAP some extra team utility and strategic value, and the idea of a Mega Pokemon's base stats combined with the inherent Special Defense boost is highly appealing. Interfering opposing weather is a nice addition, though opposing weathers can just as easily interfere with the CAP. The fact that only Rock-types gain the Special Defense boost is what makes it the most appealing, making it one of the most pro-concept abilities around. Honestly, we're rehashing everything that was noted in the base form's discussion, but one major point is unique to the Mega form: it can continuously set up the Sand and actually benefit from it. Korski already noted the value of easing the stat spread: more freedom to invest in offenses is quite valuable, especially when trying to threaten Water-types switching in.

Adaptability and Rock Head have been discussed enough, but they are definitely good options too. I'm still not too sold on Compound Eyes, because it puts more pressure on the stats to be both offensively capable of threatening Water-types, and defensive enough to at least check the strong Fire and Flying types.

 

[Project_Mars]

On the three way discussion between Adaptability, Sheer Force, and Rock Head, I like Adaptability most. Rock Head seems the least likable one out of the three, since it is far too limited in scope by affecting Head Smash and one or two coverage moves. Sheer Force is a lot better, since it affects a lot more moves CAP could have access too on both sides of the attacking spectrum, as well as coverage moves. However the fact that it affects coverage moves is a strike against it, imo, since it could lead to headaches picking coverage that isn't too good. Plus there are a couple of STAB attacks that wouldn't benefit.

Adaptability will work with any of CAP's STAB attacks, while not touching any of the coverage moves. On top of that, Adaptability Gunk Shot deals as much damage as a Super Effective non-STAB Power Whip/Wood Hammer, meaning we can be a bit more selective on coverage moves and have an easier time staying in-line with our threats list.

 

[Alfalfa]

After looking through all the abilities posted, I think retaining Regenerator as the Mega CAP's ability has not been touched upon enough. It offers incentive to Mega Evolve, and prevents the CAP from being worn down due to the lack of Leftovers. We've acknowledged that the CAP will having trouble staying in on many popular Pokemon, and even the ones that it is supposed to deal with will wear it down once it Mega Evolves. It does something similar to Magic Guard as well, where the CAP won't be as worn down by hazards or Burns, but still be affected by them. Realistically, outside of some great coverage and/or stats, the CAP should expect to have to switch in on something it counters, hit the predicted switch-in with the appropriate move, and then switch out. It can take one of these turns to instead use a utility move as well, but that's besides the point. It shouldn't be expected for the CAP to be able to stay in battle for long, even as a Mega form, with the typing it has compared to the metagame threats. Staying in the base form as long as feasible before Mega Evolving is a possibility that could diminish the value of Mega CAP having Regenerator: the base form could even find reason to use other items instead. The +100 BST boost usually makes up the difference, and the resilience against Knock Off is a good selling point.

To be realistic, our CAP does not necessarily have to use its typing in a defensive manner, especially since we want our CAP to threaten (not necessarily be immune to, as was clarified) Water-types. Our Mega CAP isn't necessarily be able to threaten most of the Water-types we want it to threaten without being able to pressure them offensive. With Regenerator alone, our CAP does not have much initial leverage over Water-types, which is why I wanted Rock Head. STAB Head Smash usually does a ton of damage to even Slowbro and Suicune, dissuading them from switching in. With Regenerator in our mega forme, we are not really giving our CAP anything to increase its leverage over them.

 

[Ignus]

Honestly I feel the biggest argument against Sand Stream is its inability to check water types properly; something that's basically required in order to circumvent the weaknesses of our typing. Even with the massive Special Defense boost, you still see Tyranitar getting 2hko'd by scarf Keldeo's Hydro Pump with full HP investment. While something like Rock Head may not allow us to straight up tank water type burst, the power it allows us with moves like wood hammer or wild charge would stop the opponent from switching those in the Pokemon in the first place. Despite the fact that Offensive abilities don't directly support our primarily defensive typing, I think we need to realize that even with an extra 100 BST we might not be able to survive a head on attack from water types, especially from the offensively oriented ones.

I don't particularly agree that spamming a singular STAB is off from the concept assessment as we defined that CAP would primarily be a utility counter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I expect from CAP in an actual battle:

1. Opponent sends out Talonflame or other thing in order to wreck some shit
2. You switch in CAP to take the inevitable brave bird, regardless of a swords dance
3. You press the big red 'kill Talonflame' button, double switch and abuse Regenerator, or otherwise take advantage of opponent switching out T-Flame
4. Rinse and Repeat

Obviously Talonflame isn't the only example of this, but it's probably the easiest to conceptualize.

Examples like this are why I have problems with Sand Stream - I just don't see it aiding any part of this situation. Regenerator is already a stronger ability for pivoting, and Sand Stream doesn't particularly aid in punishing an opponent's switch, which all of the Offensive Abilities do. While sand stream is an ability that has some very unique benefits for our typing, it doesn't allow us to avoid the situations when CAP will be weakest; It doesn't give us the immediate power needed to win a 1v1 against our Checks after a double switch from Talonflame or whatever it is we're switching in against.

If any of you have a practical situation where Sand Stream (or any other defensive mega evolution ability) helps us avoid our weaknesses better than CAP changing gears from a defensively oriented position to an offensively oriented one, I'd definitely change my mind about the ability. The only reason I'm against it as of now is because it doesn't work as well when it comes to checking our threat list as an ability like Adaptability, Rock Head, or any of the other offensively oriented abilities mentioned.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Note that I have still not decided which abilities I will vote for, but I do want to have certain abilities highly analyzed to reach a more objective decision.

To be realistic, our CAP does not necessarily have to use its typing in a defensive manner, especially since we want our CAP to threaten (not necessarily be immune to, as was clarified) Water-types. Our Mega CAP isn't necessarily be able to threaten most of the Water-types we want it to threaten without being able to pressure them offensive. With Regenerator alone, our CAP does not have much initial leverage over Water-types, which is why I wanted Rock Head. STAB Head Smash usually does a ton of damage to even Slowbro and Suicune, dissuading them from switching in. With Regenerator in our mega forme, we are not really giving our CAP anything to increase its leverage over them.

Normally I would agree with you that threatening Water-types is a huge priority, and we can do this offensively rather than defensively. However, I have to disagree with the fact that Regenerator will prevent the CAP from threatening Water-types. We do not know the stats after all, so it's too much to assume that. The fact that the CAP can afford to run lower defensive stats in favor of offensive stats because the consistent HP gain will help keep its HP relatively high sounds like a positive point to me.

The reason why I like Adaptability and Sand Stream is the fact that they both provide more leeway for the stats, since we do not have to have as high a stat spread to reach the levels that these abilities would provide. Rock Head does do this to a similar extent, and it's been noted that Poison moves will do plenty of damage to the appropriate targets regardless.

Still not sure about Arena Trap, Unaware, and Magic Guard.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

And we're done! Here's the slate for your viewing pleasure.

Magic Guard
Adaptability
Sand Stream
Regenerator
Rock Head

Magic Guard was selected for the slate because of its recoil canceling and general utility. CAP21's typing leaves it vulnerable to entry hazards other than Toxic Spikes, and it cannot use its most powerful STAB move (Head Smash) without draining a lot of its own HP. While not as typing-focused as Rock Head, Magic Guard provides the same benefits while also boosting this Pokemon's general viability, which may be necessary given our typing.

Adaptability allows our CAP to fire off more powerful STAB moves. For a Pokemon that wants to take advantage of its typing, powerful STABs are a must. Adaptability will arguably benefit the Poison STAB more than any other Ability on this list, as it boosts Gunk Shot's power tremendously.

Sand Stream provides a boost extremely specific to the Rock type - a 50% Special Defense boost for five turns. This will increase CAP21's survivability against Special Water-type Pokemon such as Keldeo and Manaphy. However, note that a 50% Special Defense boost will not make CAP21 too strong against those Pokemon - Tyranitar even with investment in its mammoth stats doesn't want to take Hydro Pumps or +3 Scalds. Sand Stream can also provide team support to Sand Rush Excadrill and overall makes CAP21 a bulkier team player.

Regenerator is the same as our base form. It allows for CAP21 to continually keep its HP up, possibly allowing for Head Smash to be used often without the need for reliable recovery. It also allows CAP21 to heal damage from attacks like Manaphy's Scald and Keldeo's Hydro Pump if it's bulky enough not to be OHKO'd.

Rock Head allows for recoil-free Head Smashes and opens up numerous other coverage opportunities. It's very concept-focused, as Head Smash is the most powerful STAB option for Rock-types in the game. Recoil-free Wild Charges, Volt Tackles, or Wood Hammers also target opponents on our threat list.

 

[jas61292]

Once again, I fully agree with DetroitLolcat's slate here, and think he did an excellent job giving a summary for each. Sheer Force was the only other ability that I think had enough good arguments to warrant consideration, but ultimately, I do not think that there was enough of an argument showing how is would be more useful or more concept oriented than the alternatives. So yeah, no changes here from me. Lets get to this poll.