ORAS Ubers Analysis Index (See Post #394)

[Minority]

analyses are meant for newer users to find what's most splashable and "best" on a pokemon

Yes, but the analysis should include all sets that have a niche and order them by how splashable or effective they are (which is exactly what the Xern analysis does). The fact that the Geomancy set is first tells new users that it's the best set, as if they weren't already aware. If you reduce analyses to only being about splashable sets then you lose lots of interesting and perfectly viable sets across mons and even entire analyses for mons that by nature are niche.

I remember Edgar using CM Xern in SPL and getting really good results with it, but a set's nature is not defined by how often it is used on the ladder or how frequently it makes appearances in tours anyway. I don't like your whole "show me good tour matches with mon X so I know it's good" angle because this is not the fashion in which we determine what gets an analysis and because you can just dismiss any tour match provided on some subjective basis of "it didn't do much that match" or "said player misplayed against it" or "that tour isn't relevant" or "that set only worked because it had matchup" etc. I think you also overestimate how zealous I am about CM Arc Ground getting a set to begin with; my original point was that if we're going to bother adding the support set then we shouldn't gloss over the CM set, especially when the on site analysis fails to adequately elaborate as to why it shouldn't be used. The CM set is just about as lame as the support set, which is part of the reason why I suggest that they just get merged if it was decided to be worthwhile to add them.

 

[Nayrz]

I could approve a "special" set that perhaps has CM slashed (or defog slashed, havent put much thought into it) with the ev details for the specific option in the moves section. I don't think special groundceus is anything but average and im not sold on cm being/playing any different from defog besides the old "keep it healthy, play for late game sweep" that is probably mentioned across any arceus analysis that can run cm. 2 extra sets for special groundceus is something i will not approve of. The other options part of the current analysis does mention these sets but that might need some small elaboration or removal once this set is done.

There's also no problems with the xern analysis at all and im not sure why it keeps being brought up. Xerneas has plenty of sets all with some form of viability, and deserve coverage. If random stuff like specs or block + rest w/ geomancy had sets then there might have been an argument. For a mon as versatile and common as xerneas, all viable sets should be given all the information possible so newcomers know the possibilities when they come across the mon. The current xerneas analysis does that perfectly. Also:

If you could show me a replay of a user using defensive, mixed or CM xerneas in a tour game that actually meant something I'll give it up, but if analyses are meant for newer users to find what's most splashable and "best" on a pokemon, they shouldn't be there.

?

 

[Freeroamer]

My basis for referring to tour matches is that if good players don't believe bring the set/mon to a game they need to win to be worth it, despite seeing some metagame innovations derive from tour matches, then a new player probably isn't going to be able to make use of it either.

 

[Nayrz]

Fair point, but you have to remember that tour players form their own ideas and opinions of the meta, and that can greatly affect what you see from either player of a match. Analyses tend to go by a general consensus of what works, and some of these same tournament players are on the QC teams across the site, so sometimes there are sets that are pretty rare in tours but were recognized as viable (and pretty strong) that were written up by these tour players (physical pogre, mild pdon) despite being weird and probably not used by newcomers, so the opposite of your point is also true. I've seen a few tour games where blockrest geoxern makes it to tour matches (and wins) despite sitting in the other options section of its current analysis. That set is generally inconsistent and can prove useless to newer players (its still inconsistent in the upper levels of play but can bone specific matchups), so it sits in the other options. At the end of the day we can only really go with a general consensus of "this set works and doesn't suck ass" as tournament matches can be harder to take a consensus from. Thats where the qc teams find something to do.

 

[shrang]

I like how CM Groundceus was massively hyped at the start of ORAS (iirc it was used in SPL), then it got trashed hard. Kind of like Reshiram.

Anyway, I personally think while CM Groundceus has a lot of problems, it still has a niche of some sort. It's one of the few mons that can check both Primal Groudon and Mega Mence without being something that sits around and jacks off all day like Lugia, Waterceus, Dragceus Cresselia or Lolrock. Yes, it's Ho-oh bait and has trouble with CM Lati@s, but given enough bulk, it's a good offensive check to the two of the biggest threats in the tier. I'd go a physically defensive CM Groundceus so you can actually check Mence. Something like:

Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Nature: Bold
- Calm Mind
- Judgement
- Ice Beam
- Recover

On the topic support Ground, just don't use it. Like seriously, unlike CM Ground, you now have no offensive presence (which means you're back to something that just sits on its ass all day), therefore you're probably better off using Waterceus or Dragceus.

 

[Sweep]

CM Groundceus is a GREAT mon, unless you see the following pokemon:

-Wobbuffet
-Kyogre
-Ho-Oh
-Clefable
-Blissey
-Skarmory
-Cresselia (don't care if i'm the only one who uses this, it is viable, and if you use CM Groundceus vs my Cress you're going to get punched in the mouth 55 times)
-CM Lati

other than that it's a god. please don't give that set an analysis, it's vulnerable to wayyyy too much of the meta. support groundceus might actually be less ass, at least it can defog while doing nothing of note.

obviously every mon has checks, but apart from maybe Lati@s i listed a ton of counters to this...mons that can switch it repeatedly and gore you with attacks or status.

 

[Minority]

That list alone isn't really reason enough; a majority of that list is also capable of beating the SD set but obviously we aren't going to remove it. Also the only mons there that are immediately dangerous are Ho-Oh and Wobb, the first of which can be mitigated with SR advantage and the second is not only uncommon, but has to win a 50/50 to either to get a free turn for a teammate or trade eating damage for a KO. As I already pointed out being Ho-Oh food is not enough reason to dismiss a set because tons of viable mons have that problem. Being weak to a few stall mons also isn't reason enough, especially when the defensive mons you listed stack common weaknesses to certain offensive mons (Mega Gengar, Taunt Rai, Zekrom, Ho-Oh, etc.) meaning the support options are there to potentially offset the flaws you listed.

Just to say it again, I don't really like this set and don't care if it gets an analysis or not, but can we clear up once and for all the real reason why you shouldn't use it, if for no reason other than developing a proper explanation for when newer players inevitably ask the question "Hey why isn't there a CM Arc Ground analysis" or "I'm thinking about using CM Arc Ground, is that ever a worthwhile addition".

 

[Hack]

I don't like CM, but I can accept defog+toxic, which isn't as prone to tanks (cm lati, ho-oh, ogre) and walls (lugia, cress) as well as the rare wobb. CM arcs just suck in this meta in general, I would only accept cm arcs that really have nothing better to do tbf

 

[Take Azelfie]

So I saw that Gliscor was mentioned periodically in some of the online analysis but then I realized that there is actually no Gliscor UBERs set, is it deserving of a set? I mean it can take statuses and play a pretty good stall breaker as well as a nice speed tier and pretty good defense physically. It has pretty nice movepool with a plethora of options (obviously there are some better picks but I still felt they were worth thee mention)

Move Options

Baton Pass
Defog
Earthquake
Knock Off
Protect
Rock Polish (for BP)
Roost
Stealth Rock
Swords Dance (for BP)
Taunt
Toxic
U-turn
Bulldoze

The current spread I use ATM is 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD the set relies on maximizing defense but the 76 SpD + 151 HP allows Gliscor to live Modest 252 SpA from Xerneas after rocks. It has helped me in many situations Taunting Xerneas before it Geomancies then using either Knock Off if I think it will a problem late game or Stealth Rock. So may I reserve Gliscor?
BTW there is a set on the damage calc for Stealth Rock Gliscor.

 

[Nayrz]

Gliscor suffered from the same problems Landorus-T did back when its viability was debated (shaky check to Primal Groudon because of Special attacks and the SD set, couldn't check Mence, poor option for defensive teams cause they could use their own Groudon or Arceus-Ground for better results) , and then the Choice Scarf set was found to be useful enough to warrant Lando-T's use. Only problem is that Gliscor just doesn't have another niche. Its owned by Mega Sableye, something most defensively oriented teams have, so calling it a "stall breaker" doesn't exactly work. It wants special defense and physical defense, but can't exactly afford either. Even with max in either stat, something bones it.

It was also previously rejected back in July so if you want to find further info on its viability (or lack thereof) then take a look. I approved it at the time but the rejections were also true points and I can agree with them. The meta has not changed enough to make Gliscor any better either so unless something mystical meta-wise happens I wouldn't approve of it getting an analysis atm.

Speaking of which, what analyses have Gliscor mentions? Those probably need to be taken out...

 

[Take Azelfie]

Gliscor suffered from the same problems Landorus-T did back when its viability was debated (shaky check to Primal Groudon because of Special attacks and the SD set, couldn't check Mence, poor option for defensive teams cause they could use their own Groudon or Arceus-Ground for better results) , and then the Choice Scarf set was found to be useful enough to warrant Lando-T's use. Only problem is that Gliscor just doesn't have another niche. Its owned by Mega Sableye, something most defensively oriented teams have, so calling it a "stall breaker" doesn't exactly work. It wants special defense and physical defense, but can't exactly afford either. Even with max in either stat, something bones it.

It was also previously rejected back in July so if you want to find further info on its viability (or lack thereof) then take a look. I approved it at the time but the rejections were also true points and I can agree with them. The meta has not changed enough to make Gliscor any better either so unless something mystical meta-wise happens I wouldn't approve of it getting an analysis atm.

Speaking of which, what analyses have Gliscor mentions? Those probably need to be taken out...

OK, I'll edit this post and see which ones have Gliscor mentions.

Glicor Mentions (Finished)

Arceus

• Extreme Killer
  • Moves
    • second paragraph

Arceus Posion

• Other Options
  • After Ice Beam mention
• Checks and Counters
  • Ground types
    • 2 Mentions

Arceus Rock

• Checks and Counters
  • Primal Groudon and Gliscor
    • 2 mentions (not including the one in the title)

Blaziken

• Other options
  • After HP Ice mention

Giritina Origin

• Other Options
  • last word
• Checks and Counters
  • Gliscor (has its own section)

Kangaskhan

• Team options
  • after Kyogre mention taking on Kangs checks
• Checks and Counters
  • bulky physical pokemon
    • second pokemon listed after Yveltal

Mewtwo

• Physical attacker
  • moves
    • after Ice Punch and what it hits

Zekrom

• Choice Scarf
  • Moves
  • Team Options
    • mentions Stealth Rock setters that help with Zekrom getting OHKOs and 2HKOs
• Life Orb
  • Team Options
    • mentions how Zekrom likes hazards
• Choice Band
  • Team Options
    • Ground immune stealth Rockers
• Checks and Counters
  • Ground-types

Excadrill

• Team Options
  • after mention of water types that can defeat bulky ground types
• Checks and Counter
  • Lando T and Gliscor

Jirachi

• Checks and Counters
  • Ground types
    • 2 mentions

Klefki

• Checks and Counters
  • Ground types
    • it is in the last pair mentioned

Latias

• Support
  • Usage Tips
    • talks about how Lati hates status and Gliscor can help

Metagross

• Other Options
  • After Ice Punch mention
• Checks and Counters
  • Ground Types
    • after Lando T

Nayrz

 

[Minority]

I think the following mons need small edits via CMS, Latios may need a revamp because of adding a set.

- Latios (general + 4 attacks set + Modest) needs revamp
- Arceus-Poison (small general) ✓
- Arceus-Rock (small general + SR moves mention) ✓
- Mega Blaziken (small general + HP Ice moves mention) ✓
- Deo-S (small general + EV spread change + slash change + Rocky Helmet) needs revamp
- Diancie (small general) ✓ < this wasnt a small general, i can tell you that much
- Mega Gengar (small general + more emphasis on Wisp and Protect)
- Ho-Oh (faster spreads?)
- Mega Kangaskhan (small general + Adamant) - not sure what needs changed here... adamant is already mentioned?
- Klefki (small general + Dazzling Gleam) - looks fine, dazzling gleam isnt good now that sableye is starting to run sp def
- Latias (small general + Grass Knot) ✓ - didn't need revamp after all, updated through cms w/ steel
- Lugia (faster EV spread) ✓
- Mewtwo (general + new MM2X EV spread) - this and below are Sweep's agreed jobs ✓
- Mega Scizor (small general)
- Skarmory (small general + SpD EV spread mention + Taunt mention)
- Yveltal (Charti Berry) ✓
- Zekrom (Shuca first set?) ✓
- Arceus-Electric (CM set?) < still garbage, will pass on this one - nayrz

Might have missed some, but that's what I noticed. I've already done some work on Xerneas, Mega Salamence, EKiller, and Arc Ghost over the past couple months. If there are other possible updates that I missed point them out.

 

[Freeroamer]

Gastrodon should have it's XY analysis removed, I saw it the other day when I was trying to find an OU spread. To go with this someone should probs use the old xy viability rankings to make sure all the shit that isn't viable has been removed by now.

 

[Nayrz]

Alright I submitted all those Gliscor changes, the mentions should all be removed.

As for the above list, I'll work on those and double check the xy analysis removals tomorrow (if i have the time)

As for some approved revamps, here's a list of stuff to do:
Latios and Deoxys-S are approved for full revamps! These analyses are important and require decent meta knowledge to write well, but I won't place badgeholder restrictions on them. However, quality will be closely monitored and reassignments will be done if the attempted skeleton would take a lot of work to bring up to scratch.

No johns either.

 

[jboss1234]

can i reserve metagross

 

[Minority]

Metagross was finished a long time ago, but was then later removed from the dex when it was agreed that it no longer had a niche.

With that said I can pickup Deo-S but I probs won't have it posted until after my finals are over (friday).

 

[jboss1234]

can i reserve metagross

 

[Fireburn]

no

 

[haxiom]

Do you guys still need a Latios revamp? I can probably do that if you need it.

 

[Sweep]

i keep forgetting, yes pls do that

 

[Take Azelfie]

Is Hoopa-Unbound viable enough to get an analysis. I summarized everything onto here

http://pastebin.com/unnhmN99

Slay edit: I can also take this if it gets approved

 

[Nayrz]

the set is interesting but you would have to answer what it actually does for a team (aka its niche in the tier), what it checks, where it can be used and who partners with it

back when its stats were revealed i theory'd a nasty plot set completely boning stall but it does literally nothing defensive wise. if it was uber then yea but it doesn't look to be a mandatory analysis anytime soon, so its down to what you can come up with.

also cresselia is looking for an analysis writer

 

[Take Azelfie]

I'll elaborate more.
Generals
Hoopa as has pretty good special bulk meaning it can actually take hits in that. So this means Hoopa can actually quarrel against pokemon like MMY and Latios rather than whoever wins the speed tie gets to nuke the other first.

It also has the ability to force situations. In a 1v1 matchup some pokemon will try to abuse eachother like Mega Mence uses DD on an Intimidated Arceus. Hoopa does the same thing to many pokemon except in a different way. Against Arceus no and there is no Stealth Rock damage, you either live a hit from ESpeed (LO) and with FBlast which has a 25% chance to kill trading off a pokemon who easilly gets picked off for a powerful sweeper, or the switch out into something that resist FBlast (which is either a Psychic, Fairy or Ghost most of the time, Flying-types are a bit of a problem) and then the situation resets, you either hit Fairy (Xerneas mostly) with a Gunk Shot that does a hell of a lot and either get killed or make it susceptible to any priority or with Psychic and Ghost-type it either gets hit hard and OHKOed or forced to retreat, there are many more situation I can bring up as well. While most of the time it isn't a safe switchin, Hoopa can most likely come in after a fallen and scare it off.

Has a strange set of things it can check and counter but the things it can are actually super beneficial. It subs on Lugia because either it uses a move that gets blocked or switches out which is extremely useful meaning Hoopa will actually get a chance to hit something that is physical which is huge for it.

Hoopa also doesn't have oppurtunity cost of either a mega or an Arceus form (Mega Lop, Mawile or TTar)(Arc Grass and Flying)

Hoopa like hazard stacking teams since it can pressure most of the common Defoggers (Giritina, Lati@s, Arc Ghost) but it also just helps out with speed style sweepers like RP PDon and GeoXern since it helps to break things that often trouble them (King's Shield Aegi, Opposing Xern if unsetup, undamage Multiscale Lugia w/ Whirlwind.) Since It doesn't like taking physical hits pokemon like Klefki, Forre and Ferro are often great partners for it.


This is pretty much everything I can think of at the moment Nayrz

 

[Nayrz]

hmmmmMMMMmmmmm idk

Fireburn you enjoy using random mons, is this analysis worthy

 

[Hack]

No it's not.

Why does it matter that you live useless arbitary one hits and can hit back? Most uber mons do that. Even stall walls the propsed set easily (waterceus/lugia). PS: if you think Hoopa can sub on Lugia then I am very sad indeed. Since it doesn't actually check anything (arbitary lives doesn't count cause it gets 2hko by everything anyway) and is too slow to put in work vs offense you are going to be stuck with an overall weaker build by using it. I can't see how I would build a good team with this mon because it simply stands against any concept of sound teambuilding that I personally like.