np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Run The Jewels

[Eoin482]

Nice to see some very well developed arguments on this topic. While I'm against both bans (I'd be neutral on the complex ban but it's not happening so irrelevant), I am sympathetic towards those who argue Shadow Tag is uncompetitive. Ultimately I think common sense will prevail on Sableye; it's not bulky enough to kick out while a good range of Magic Bouncers is nice for keeping the hazard war diverse. Defog is a horrible move for non stall teams while there are too few good spinners (and fewer who actually like to run the move). In any case if you have good options for Scald you should be ok vs Sableye. It also loses a lot of CM wars due to low bulk and poor Sp Att. Nasty plot and Tail Glow punish these flaws even further. It is of course a brilliant addition to many teams but no more than many current OU threats.
Goth is much more controversial because using it takes no skill. However all it's doing is (at best) turning the match into a 5v5. A team shouldn't automatically lose (especially to such an easily beaten playstyle as stall) by losing one pokemon. Chansey is omnipresent in OU so having only one answer to it is pretty unforgivable. Skarmory goes down fast in OU due to the massive power creep, so removing one thing shouldn't make it unbeatable. Clefable is more of an issue; since few things carry Steel or Poison coverage it is reasonable to assume a team might only have one thing to beat it. However in practice most pokemon that are powerful enough to beat Clefable will just blow Goth apart (bearing in mind its low speed even when scarfed). This is the real problem I have with the ban: Goth itself only has the stats for NU, and can't actually switch in on many of the things it's supposed to cripple. The other Shadow Tag users are cool but pretty useless in practice so I'd maintain the status quo and wait until something else monstrous like gengar gets the ability before banning anything. Shadow Tag would not be a loss to the tier but we must remember that one of our primary goals is to remain as true to the game as possible: ie. avoiding bans unless really necessary. Is Goth broken? No. Is it centralising? Not overly. Is it uncompetitive? It's easy to use but so are Chansey and Scizor.
Ultimately I must applaud stall players for finding a tactic that makes their playstyle relevant after the power creep. If Goth goes so too does stall and I think that does more harm than good to our tier.

 

[ボーイ]

Nice to see some very well developed arguments on this topic. While I'm against both bans (I'd be neutral on the complex ban but it's not happening so irrelevant), I am sympathetic towards those who argue Shadow Tag is uncompetitive. Ultimately I think common sense will prevail on Sableye; it's not bulky enough to kick out while a good range of Magic Bouncers is nice for keeping the hazard war diverse. Defog is a horrible move for non stall teams while there are too few good spinners (and fewer who actually like to run the move). In any case if you have good options for Scald you should be ok vs Sableye. It also loses a lot of CM wars due to low bulk and poor Sp Att. Nasty plot and Tail Glow punish these flaws even further. It is of course a brilliant addition to many teams but no more than many current OU threats.
Goth is much more controversial because using it takes no skill. However all it's doing is (at best) turning the match into a 5v5. A team shouldn't automatically lose (especially to such an easily beaten playstyle as stall) by losing one pokemon. Chansey is omnipresent in OU so having only one answer to it is pretty unforgivable. Skarmory goes down fast in OU due to the massive power creep, so removing one thing shouldn't make it unbeatable. Clefable is more of an issue; since few things carry Steel or Poison coverage it is reasonable to assume a team might only have one thing to beat it. However in practice most pokemon that are powerful enough to beat Clefable will just blow Goth apart (bearing in mind its low speed even when scarfed). This is the real problem I have with the ban: Goth itself only has the stats for NU, and can't actually switch in on many of the things it's supposed to cripple. The other Shadow Tag users are cool but pretty useless in practice so I'd maintain the status quo and wait until something else monstrous like gengar gets the ability before banning anything. Shadow Tag would not be a loss to the tier but we must remember that one of our primary goals is to remain as true to the game as possible: ie. avoiding bans unless really necessary. Is Goth broken? No. Is it centralising? Not overly. Is it uncompetitive? It's easy to use but so are Chansey and Scizor.
Ultimately I must applaud stall players for finding a tactic that makes their playstyle relevant after the power creep. If Goth goes so too does stall and I think that does more harm than good to our tier.

Banning Shadow Tag will actually be much healthier for stall. You see offense doesn't have a problem with stall, stall has a problem with stall, because the stall with Gothitelle will always have an advantage over a stall team with out.

 

[Chatter]

Nice to see some very well developed arguments on this topic. While I'm against both bans (I'd be neutral on the complex ban but it's not happening so irrelevant), I am sympathetic towards those who argue Shadow Tag is uncompetitive. Ultimately I think common sense will prevail on Sableye; it's not bulky enough to kick out while a good range of Magic Bouncers is nice for keeping the hazard war diverse. Defog is a horrible move for non stall teams while there are too few good spinners (and fewer who actually like to run the move). In any case if you have good options for Scald you should be ok vs Sableye. It also loses a lot of CM wars due to low bulk and poor Sp Att. Nasty plot and Tail Glow punish these flaws even further. It is of course a brilliant addition to many teams but no more than many current OU threats.
Goth is much more controversial because using it takes no skill. However all it's doing is (at best) turning the match into a 5v5. A team shouldn't automatically lose (especially to such an easily beaten playstyle as stall) by losing one pokemon. Chansey is omnipresent in OU so having only one answer to it is pretty unforgivable. Skarmory goes down fast in OU due to the massive power creep, so removing one thing shouldn't make it unbeatable. Clefable is more of an issue; since few things carry Steel or Poison coverage it is reasonable to assume a team might only have one thing to beat it. However in practice most pokemon that are powerful enough to beat Clefable will just blow Goth apart (bearing in mind its low speed even when scarfed). This is the real problem I have with the ban: Goth itself only has the stats for NU, and can't actually switch in on many of the things it's supposed to cripple. The other Shadow Tag users are cool but pretty useless in practice so I'd maintain the status quo and wait until something else monstrous like gengar gets the ability before banning anything. Shadow Tag would not be a loss to the tier but we must remember that one of our primary goals is to remain as true to the game as possible: ie. avoiding bans unless really necessary. Is Goth broken? No. Is it centralising? Not overly. Is it uncompetitive? It's easy to use but so are Chansey and Scizor.
Ultimately I must applaud stall players for finding a tactic that makes their playstyle relevant after the power creep. If Goth goes so too does stall and I think that does more harm than good to our tier.

As much as I would like to agree with you on goth, I'm afraid that it's not normally a 5v5. For instance, if a stall team WOULD be ripped apart by Manaphy, once a scarf gets tricked onto it, that manaphy is out of the game. It's not stall breaking any time soon. After that, you say that stall is easy to beat, but I have to disagree. Well played stall is NOT easy to beat. It tanks, heals, etc. It's stall, it's built to survive. And if one of you stall breakers is down, it becomes that much harder to break.

Now that wouldn't be a huge issue if it weren't for the fact the Goth player will choose which stall breaker/mon is the most threatening to his team, and proceed to destroy that pok with goth. Unless your team happens to have 2 perfect answers to the stall team (sure, that's gonna happen) you aren't going to win unless the stall player chokes.

 

[Eoin482]

Banning Shadow Tag will actually be much healthier for stall. You see offense doesn't have a problem with stall, stall has a problem with stall, because the stall with Gothitelle will always have an advantage over a stall team with out.

I see your point here. It is very centralising to the playstyle itself which is problematic. I suppose a possible counter argument is that the same situation applies when you consider Stealth Rock, yet no one calls for that to be banned (I would hope). I have no doubt the game is healthier without Shadow Tag but are we really justified in banning it? In my opinion there should be a very clear factor that contributes to the ban, rather than a collection of things that make it annoying. For example while it can be said it centralises teambuilding for stall, the same can be said of Chansey. While it doesn't take any skill to remove certain pokemon with Goth, there is skill in identifying exactly what moment it should do its thing. Finally while it is notorious for locking wallbreakers like Manaphy into a single move, the real issue is not Goth itself but the pokemon capable of brushing off +3 hits from said wallbreaker. Chansey centralises stall and balance more than these 2 suspected mons ever will.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Setting up removable hazards that cause the player to think about how they play is not the same as removing all control from the player and killing the most troublesome Pokemon on their team. They're both centralizing, but they both are centralizing in COMPLETELY different ways.

That "clear factor" is removing control from the player, something that is VERY detrimental in competitive games by the way. Go to a Shooter tournament and take someones controller for about 20 seconds while they're playing and tell me how competitive that is.

 

[Eoin482]

I laid out my argument in the original post where I also made my stance on the suspect clear. Someone seemed to be suggesting that I was calling for Stealth Rock to be banned so I was just clarifying my point. No reason to remove that post.

 

[Blvdman]

I'm salty since I love my shadow tag Gothitelle/Mega Beedrill Team, so I have 2 questions/statements.

With an Ability finally getting banned, how will this affect future tiering, or is this a selfish decision made by the council for an Ability that only maybe a few of the top elites complain about? So I assume Blaziken will get unbanned now since we can ban its Speed Boost but allow its other Ability.

Second one is, if Shadow Tag gets banned, does this mean Clefable will follow suit? As with another way of disabling Clefable from setting up being up on the chopping block, doesn't this increase the usage of cCefable as there is 1 less playstyle for Clefable users to worry about? Clefable is already hard enough to take out as it is .Clefable can disable most offensive pokemon that 2 hit it with Twave, and sets up on anything that 3 hits it and anything else that resists Twave is walled by skarmory/ferrothorn/scizor 1 of these 3 is usually always paired with a clefable.

I'm really salty, but still keeping logical in my thought process, I'm confused and pardon my language, but what the fuck? I've pretty much lost faith in the council because of this decision. I'm not sure this decision was thoroughly thought out in terms of future suspect equality, council must be consistent with the rules and can't bend it apply to specific pokemon without considering other pokemon that could benefit from such a suspect, aka Blaziken.

Sableye Suspect though 11/10 keep up the good work.

 

[Aberforth]

Abilities have been banned before. Look at Moody. If you want to look at the lower tiers too, look at Drought, Drizzle and Shadow tag itself. Difference is that these abilities are broken on all mons that get them, not just 1 (blaziken).

Also, future suspects are irrelevant in current suspects. If something needs to be banned in the future it will be. Also there are a fairly large number of reasons a Clefable suspect wont happen.

The council did this test to see if Shadow Tag is uncompetitive, like Moody. Speed Boost just makes things OP (in the one and only case of Blaziken).

 

[bsu]

I'm salty since I love my shadow tag Gothitelle/Mega Beedrill Team, so I have 2 questions/statements.

With an Ability finally getting banned, how will this affect future tiering, or is this a selfish decision made by the council for an Ability that only maybe a few of the top elites complain about? So I assume Blaziken will get unbanned now since we can ban its Speed Boost but allow its other Ability.
...

I'm really salty, but still keeping logical in my thought process, I'm confused and pardon my language, but what the fuck? I've pretty much lost faith in the council because of this decision. I'm not sure this decision was thoroughly thought out in terms of future suspect equality, council must be consistent with the rules and can't bend it apply to specific pokemon without considering other pokemon that could benefit from such a suspect, aka Blaziken.

just to reply directly to ur blaziken thing, smogon has banned just abilities before (Moody), and regular non speed boost blaziken is pretty much an in-between of emboar and infernape, two uu/below mons, so I'm pretty sure a midway between the two won't do much better than either. regardless, ya they have banned abilities before so the idea of banning Stag isn't some crazy new thing

edit: ninjad ;[

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I'm salty since I love my shadow tag Gothitelle/Mega Beedrill Team, so I have 2 questions/statements.

With an Ability finally getting banned, how will this affect future tiering, or is this a selfish decision made by the council for an Ability that only maybe a few of the top elites complain about? So I assume Blaziken will get unbanned now since we can ban its Speed Boost but allow its other Ability.

Second one is, if Shadow Tag gets banned, does this mean Clefable will follow suit? As with another way of disabling Clefable from setting up being up on the chopping block, doesn't this increase the usage of cCefable as there is 1 less playstyle for Clefable users to worry about? Clefable is already hard enough to take out as it is .Clefable can disable most offensive pokemon that 2 hit it with Twave, and sets up on anything that 3 hits it and anything else that resists Twave is walled by skarmory/ferrothorn/scizor 1 of these 3 is usually always paired with a clefable.

I'm really salty, but still keeping logical in my thought process, I'm confused and pardon my language, but what the fuck? I've pretty much lost faith in the council because of this decision. I'm not sure this decision was thoroughly thought out in terms of future suspect equality, council must be consistent with the rules and can't bend it apply to specific pokemon without considering other pokemon that could benefit from such a suspect, aka Blaziken.

Sableye Suspect though 11/10 keep up the good work.

I'll refrain from tearing this emotional heap of tears and wadded tissues apart too badly. . .

Firstly, I want to express that this was not just a unanimous decision based on the Council and the council alone, as seen Here. Feel free to click it but not read it at all.

Second, are we really going to use this Swiss cheesed argument again? There is a VERY clear reason the Pokemon you illogically named were banned and not the ability. People touched on it above me so I see no point in reiterating. Let's NEVER bring that garbage argument to this thread again please. I say that, but I know for a fact it will be brought up again by someone being upset their favorite panic buttons are on the chopping block.

Third, why the ever living hell would Clefable get banned? Clef didn't face some obscene amount of pressure from Goth like literally all the other Stallmons did, so it's usage likely won't rise or drop by much if any. Aside from that, Clef has absolutely no reason to be suspect. Being annoying doesn't make it suspect worthy, not that it matters at all since this is a thread that has just about as much to do with Clef as it does why the Ocean is salty.

And speaking of salty. . .
Fourth, don't bring that shit here. If you're going to try and defend your side, do that. Don't try and deter the thread and point at things you personally don't like, as that is literally ALL you did.

Fifth, I use Shadow Taggers and trappers and I can recognize the problem. We're not all just a bunch of moaners and cry babies, you'd know that if you actually read through these posts, but that'd require time and effort now wouldn't it?

And sixth, shut up about your displeasure with the council, I did it, we all do it, you're not special and no one cares.




Alright, so maybe I went against what I originally said.

 

[Toljik]

Many people overlook Wobbufett, but to be honest, it is also a very stupid mon. I am certain we all know of counter coat shenanigans, with encore possibly letting Wobbufett get its one kill. Yet, Wobbufett's strongest use is its encore, combined with trapping, to ensure set up opportunities. Wobbufett can effectively turn any mon into set up bait with the right plays. Like above, Wobbufett has a high level of risk/reward pokemon that has issues getting in. But it is an uncompetative mon with rather limited counterplay.

This test is about Shadow Tag in the context of stall teams, and set up opportunities are not what stall teams need. Wobbuffet can temporarily stop many of the usual stallbreakers if it switches in at the right time, but it can't permanently shut them down the way trickscarf Goth can.

 

[Aberforth]

It's about shadow tag in general. Not just in the case of stall teams, and a free turn of setup for a powerful sweeper or a free incredibly powerful hit from a good wallbreaker can be invaluable on offense

 

[UltiMario]

It's about shadow tag in general. Not just in the case of stall teams, and a free turn of setup for a powerful sweeper or a free incredibly powerful hit from a good wallbreaker can be invaluable on offense

With Encore basically neutered compared to when Wob was actually effective in Gen 4, along with the increasing amounts of generic utility counters to threats in the past 2 gens, offensive teams abusing Shadow Tag has just about become much less relevant. Games where Wob "won" the game with STag for offense were likely already won by a plethora of other mons, as having a significantly stronger team would've likely also not put you into a situation where you needed a crucial trap by Wob to win. Just because something can contribute to a team, doesn't mean its the most effective tool for doing so, and Wob is virtually never going to be that tool. As a side note, Gothitelle on offense has this to a lesser extent, as it is a good pick for a team on a rare occasion, but it is massively outshined as a generic stallbreaker by mons like Hoopa and Cube for offensive teams, or specifically in the case of Sab Goth teams, outshined by Togekiss. (I'll say it here since I know someones going to try and nitpick at this: I'm not saying these mons I named share an identical role overall, just that the role that they're being used for in offensive teams tends to effectively end in the same result, just with different rates of consistency.)

With how the meta has developed at this point I'd say its straight spreading misinformation to say that Shadow Tag is an invaluable and incredibly strong asset for offense, as it's much weaker than many alternative options for offensive teams a great majority of the time.

 

[Aberforth]

I was just pointing out that offense is not irrelevant when talking about Shadow tag. While stall with stag is more common, well built and played offense with it can be devastating.

 

[p2]

nah stag isn't even that good on offense. gothitelle is absolute dogshit and wobb is overrated and ridiculously matchup based.

wobb has a decent matchup against opposing offensive teams, but half the time, if the opposing mon has a status move like sd, you're coming down to 50/50s to even have a chance at removing your opponents pokemon and if you want a better matchup against bulkier teams, you've gotta use that godawful fast tickle set and its just plain shit against offense because you're removing a ton of wobbs bulk which is the only thing that makes it decent as an offensive trapper.

gothitelle is just a huge momentum sink for offense and when it comes to trapping stuff like chansey for zardy, stuff like ttar and bisharp are way better trappers because, you know, they actually do something outside of removing one threat that you're rarely gonna see and aren't dead weight against offense.

stag is just too matchup based to seriously use outside of ladder play (and even then its not amazing there), and although your point about well built and played offense with stag is true, that's literally applicable to everything in the game. stag is pretty irrelevant on offense outside of a tiny minority of wobb teams.

 

[Norne]

nah stag isn't even that good on offense. gothitelle is absolute dogshit and wobb is overrated and ridiculously matchup based.

wobb has a decent matchup against opposing offensive teams, but half the time, if the opposing mon has a status move like sd, you're coming down to 50/50s to even have a chance at removing your opponents pokemon and if you want a better matchup against bulkier teams, you've gotta use that godawful fast tickle set and its just plain shit against offense because you're removing a ton of wobbs bulk which is the only thing that makes it decent as an offensive trapper.

gothitelle is just a huge momentum sink for offense and when it comes to trapping stuff like chansey for zardy, stuff like ttar and bisharp are way better trappers because, you know, they actually do something outside of removing one threat that you're rarely gonna see and aren't dead weight against offense.

stag is just too matchup based to seriously use outside of ladder play (and even then its not amazing there), and although your point about well built and played offense with stag is true, that's literally applicable to everything in the game. stag is pretty irrelevant on offense outside of a tiny minority of wobb teams.

My last post about this got removed since I didn't elaborate further, but I'm the kind of guy that pairs Diancie, Megagross, sub DD Maltaria, Maero and Bpass Mloppuny with Klefki and Goth quite often, you might ask, why the hell would you do that? As explained beforehand, when the played right this thing is not a momentum sink, it's an amazing panic button against loads of stuff that could threaten your sweep, all of these greatly viable mons despise a couple of stuff with a passion, and goth removes them, I no longer need to worry about normal slowbro nor quaggy, I have a free pass out of jail against base 115 speed Pokémon, with some hp tweaking I can ensure I can survive the switch in and remove Keldeo and Diancie without forcing one of my scarfed Pokémon to come in or depend on prediction to bring my own mega safely. Skarmory and Chansey become crippled once rocky helmet or lefties where scouted. Basically I remove the things that my team had a weakness before and my opponent is always at risk of goth coming since team preview revealed it, this makes them susceptible to chip damage and make them do risky plays more often. In probably 1/15 matches I play a team of hardcore volturn pass with hazards, depending on their hazard user goth could be assumed as dead weight in that 1/15 matches, even there using hp fire on Scizor or causing some chip damage isn't a terrible tradeoff.

Gothitrap is quite simple, it's an all around panic button that can make your life easier as an offensive player, so please don't try to undermine it's utility as commonly the move slot she frees on your sweepers is quite valuable.

 

[Aberforth]

How about you ask Vinc2612, the TD Who loves using it on offense. Dont get snippy by saying someone's record invalidates everything they said.

 

[Norne]

How about you ask Vinc2612, the TD Who loves using it on offense. Dont get snippy by saying someone's record invalidates everything they said.

Thanks, the player base shouldn't completely ignore the lowest common denominator or dismiss it early, as even fridge brilliance can put some light on an issue for a community. There are also other forum users that like using goth in offense as well, it isn't a "stall only" thing.

 

[Eoin482]

I'll refrain from tearing this emotional heap of tears and

Firstly, I want to express that this was not just a unanimous decision based on the Council and the council alone, as seen Here. Feel free to click it but not read it at all.

Second, are we really going to use this Swiss cheesed argument again? There is a VERY clear reason the Pokemon you illogically named were banned and not the ability. People touched on it above me so I see no point in reiterating. Let's NEVER bring that garbage argument to this thread again please. I say that, but I know for a fact it will be brought up again by someone being upset their favorite panic buttons are on the chopping block.

Third, why the ever living hell would Clefable get banned? Clef didn't face some obscene amount of pressure from Goth like literally all the other Stallmons did, so it's usage likely won't rise or drop by much if any. Aside from that, Clef has absolutely no reason to be suspect. Being annoying doesn't make it suspect worthy, not that it matters at all since this is a thread that has just about as much to do with Clef as it does why the Ocean is salty.

And speaking of salty. . .
Fourth, don't bring that shit here. If you're going to try and defend your side, do that. Don't try and deter the thread and point at things you personally don't like, as that is literally ALL you did.

Fifth, I use Shadow Taggers and trappers and I can recognize the problem. We're not all just a bunch of moaners and cry babies, you'd know that if you actually read through these posts, but that'd require time and effort now wouldn't it?

And sixth, shut up about your displeasure with the council, I did it, we all do it, you're not special and no one cares.




Alright, so maybe I went against what I originally said.

While the argument in question was full of holes, I think it's unfair to attack this guy for being "emotional". As annoying as it may be, a portion of voters can and will make decisions based on subjective elements like this.
However the most important thing you mentioned that I'd back up is the need to stick to the current suspect and leave the problems of tomorrow out of the equation. If Clefable becomes overpowered (it won't) then the appropriate action will be taken when necessary.

The healthiest thing for the tier is stability, so calling for things like complex reworking of the rules to allow Blaze Blaziken back does no one any favours. This suspect is increasingly becoming more complicated than it needs to be, so for anyone on the fence with their vote keep in mind this basically comes down to two factors:

1. Is the combination of Sableye and STag (Goth) overpowered or over-centralising (not just to the tier as a whole but when building for stall in particular)?

2. Is the ability to trap an opponent overpowered or (the real argument) genuinely uncompetitive?

Having become better informed by the people on this thread who use stall, my own opinion is that Goth-Sableye is probably over-centralising within stall itself. Shadow Tag itself is unquestionably the prime culprit in removing control from the opponent, something many people find "uncompetitive". I personally find that backing an opponent into a corner is part of the game, but must require skill. The issue for me, therefore, becomes Goth being too easy to use.
Weighing all this up I have actually altered my position and believe Goth needs to go. The other STag users are innocent collateral but never see any use In OU anyway.

In summary keep Sablenite and ban STAG (I'm a turncoat I know)

 

[AM]

How are your tournament results?

Dont get snippy by saying someone's record invalidates everything they said.

That.

Keep snide comments to yourself, don't be a dick. Addressing anyone who reads this by the way.

I'll keep some of the comments up above this one like that but let's refrain from being a little too cute for each others good from here on out thanks.

While the argument in question was full of holes, I think it's unfair to attack this guy for being "emotional". As annoying as it may be, a portion of voters can and will make decisions based on subjective elements like this.
However the most important thing you mentioned that I'd back up is the need to stick to the current suspect and leave the problems of tomorrow out of the equation. If Clefable becomes overpowered (it won't) then the appropriate action will be taken when necessary.

The healthiest thing for the tier is stability, so calling for things like complex reworking of the rules to allow Blaze Blaziken back does no one any favours. This suspect is increasingly becoming more complicated than it needs to be, so for anyone on the fence with their vote keep in mind this basically comes down to two factors:

1. Is the combination of Sableye and STag (Goth) overpowered or over-centralising (not just to the tier as a whole but when building for stall in particular)?

2. Is the ability to trap an opponent overpowered or (the real argument) genuinely uncompetitive?

Having become better informed by the people on this thread who use stall, my own opinion is that Goth-Sableye is probably over-centralising within stall itself. Shadow Tag itself is unquestionably the prime culprit in removing control from the opponent, something many people find "uncompetitive". I personally find that backing an opponent into a corner is part of the game, but must require skill. The issue for me, therefore, becomes Goth being too easy to use.
Weighing all this up I have actually altered my position and believe Goth needs to go. The other STag users are innocent collateral but never see any use In OU anyway.

In summary keep Sablenite and ban STAG (I'm a turncoat I know)

People vote however they feel like it. Whether they follow their own objective mantra of banning, whether they got salty as shit on ladder cause they got 6-0'd by the suspect in question, etc. etc. Once you get reqs you can vote however you please and I'm sure half the people voting aren't even taking this thread into account for justification since they can come to their own logical conclusion. Let's just be real with that here.

This suspect isn't complicated. Vote to ban Mega Sableye, vote to ban Shadow Tag, vote to ban both, vote to ban none. Pretty simple.

 

[Shaka Brah]

I have a problem with that sentiment. I'm not trying to be cute or snippy, but when somebody says that they use "x" Pokemon on "y" team type "effectively" without providing anything substantial to back up the claim it's pointless conjecture. We all know about goth's efficacy on stall but it's largely unproven to be anywhere near busted or banworthy on any other type of team. If you aren't going to apply anything being said to the actual game there isn't really any point in having 11 pages of discussion here.

AM Edit: Don't have a problem with you addressing that like you did now, you and I know both know the one liner was stupid though. Anyways carry on.

Edit edit: Fine. I did word it a little badly, but the intent was "how are your results with Gothitelle being used on these team types".

How about you ask Vinc2612, the TD Who loves using it on offense. Dont get snippy by saying someone's record invalidates everything they said.

So he's used goth offense teams to consistent success before?

 

[Eoin482]

That.

Keep snide comments to yourself, don't be a dick. Addressing anyone who reads this by the way.

I'll keep some of the comments up above this one like that but let's refrain from being a little too cute for each others good from here on out thanks.

People vote however they feel like it. Whether they follow their own objective mantra of banning, whether they got salty as shit on ladder cause they got 6-0'd by the suspect in question, etc. etc. Once you get reqs you can vote however you please and I'm sure half the people voting aren't even taking this thread into account for justification since they can come to their own logical conclusion. Let's just be real with that here.

This suspect isn't complicated. Vote to ban Mega Sableye, vote to ban Shadow Tag, vote to ban both, vote to ban none. Pretty simple.

The suspect itself is obviously very straightforward. What I was referring to is that some people are overcomplicating their arguments, typically those calling for STag to stay.
As for people ignoring the thread while voting I find that pretty lamentable. Without all the facts people probably will just base it off their own experience on the ladder and decide whether it's "broken" or not. I hope there is some initiative to get voters onto the thread so the eventual decision is made for the right reasons.

 

[Aberforth]

So he's used goth offense teams to consistent success before?

Yes. He posted one RMT with it. On a less public stage we've talked a fair amount on PS and skype about gothitelle and he's shown me the teams he uses with it. He says they are consistantly successful and I am inclined to believe him.

 

[Shaka Brah]

I've read the RMT, but there's no indication anywhere in it that the team has been consistently successful. He said himself that he didn't even get a chance to use it in the major tournament he built it for and I can only see one game being paraphrased and not even linked in the OP. Laddering with a team for OLT and not even qualifying or cutting close to doing so doesn't make it "consistent". I'm not "inclined to believe" that an offensive team with a sixth member like that over another breaker is consistent until proof's actually shown, and I don't see why you are.

Last post I'm making on the subject.

 

[Bluemargay]

With most of the discussion on Gothitelle there hasn't been much pro-ban talk for mega sableye. I want to bring up something no one has brought up to my knowledge. Mega Sableye discourages originality.

I'm sure most people have been faced the mega sableye teams whether they be Gothitelle stall or the team using shedinja, Dugtrio, Talonflame, seismitoad, and Togekiss. Because of this one Pokemon anyone can build one of these teams without thought and get to the upper portions of the ladder. Yes you can credit the original team builders but in a game where part of the equation is team building, it's frustrating how one Pokemon can take away that part.

So maybe Mega Sableye is easy to overpower, but I think that banning would bring skill and thinking back to the team building process and to stall itself.