Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[blank]

i definitely support Analytic's nom of regular metagross to B. simply put, AV regular metagross is a godsend for offensive builds. you kinda almost need a steel to handle things like latis, fairies, etc., and having AV gross as a viable option is huge. other than gross, your other "bulky" offensive steels are AV bisharp, jirachi, scizor, heatran, mega metagross, and mega scizor. i'm pretty sure these aren't all the bulky offensive steels, but let's just go through this little list:

• AV bisharp isn't really that great, and non-AV bisharp sets usually don't have the bulk to contend with other pokemon on this list.
• if you're gonna be running jirachi on offense, it's gonna be scarf most of the time; while scarf jirachi is pretty good at handling the things a steel needs to handle on offense while providing utility, it's pretty underwhelming offensively, and it's really easy to be forced into tough situations with it. being choice-locked + having ample switch-ins due to sub-par offenses makes it really easy to give your opponent the upper hand.
• imo if regular scizor is B rank, meta should be as well. gross isn't as powerful (CB) / doesn't have the capability to be as powerful (SD), but it's superior in the bulk department.
• offensive heatran still has a great amount of bulk, and it can provide nice utility for offensive builds with things like magma storm and/or taunt to stallbreak, and stealth rock to set rocks lol. however, it doesn't put as much pressure on latis & other psychic types as some of these other pokemon do.
• mega metagross and mega scizor take up mega slots, so you aren't really going to them as your first choice unless you have that mega slot open...

regular metagross is a really solid bulky offensive switch-in to those fairies and psychic types that tend to annoy offensive builds among other things. however, like AM said, it's insanely easy to predict when your opponent's gonna bring their AV gross out to trap whatever, but even with this in mind, i don't think it's enough to stop gross from rising to B rank.

(pretend this is mega)
i don't think mega aggron is that great by any means, but when looking at the other C- and C rank pokemon (mainly the other megas), i think it's more on par with the mega absol and mega bannete (the C+ megas) than it is with mega camerupt (the C- mega). i get what bludz was saying about that probably just being an indication that absol and bannette should drop rather than aggron rising, and i do also agree that the lower viability rankings could use a bit of cleaning up. however, in my opinion, mega aggron stands out a lot more than the other C- pokemon. mega camerupt and roserade are pretty bad, cloyster, froslass, nidoqueen, and shaymin are quite niche, and zygarde, forretress, and cresselia are a little less niche than those (in my opinion). while mega aggron isn't really good at all, and it's also pretty niche, it isn't as bad as those other bad C- ranks, and it's easier to throw on teams than those niche / super niche ones.

Albacore already did a great job of making mega aggron's case for C rank, but it's really as simple as the thing being insanely fat but not weak by any means. it's true that i'm gonna want to go for mega scizor or skarmory or whatever > aggron 99% of the time, but when you look at the other C- and C rank pokemon, it's tough to say aggron belongs where it is. mega aggron for C. n_n

 

[Kav]

Its utility most definitely extends beyond that.

The capability to spread Paralysis is extremely helpful as well as not be bait for Azumarill as Garchomp and Landorus-T is, as well as to Weavile who is doing really good right now. Not to mention Aggron pressures switch-in's, not what it comes in on, through it's capability to lure a variety of threats, set rocks, or hit most of what comes in with Heavy Slam for incredibly solid damage, while check nearly all the Fairies in the tier, bar MGard and Diancie who it can 1v1 easily.

The reason why it should rise isn't in said "pressure" but the capability to actually offer more support to the team through its movepool and being able to still take on huge metagame threats with relative ease. And it immediately threatens what would attempt to switch in on it through said movepool.

paralysis counts as an attack so yeah. The ultimate problem though is that hes a physical wall, and is taking hits, while really not being particularly difficult to switch into. Between slam, probably stealth rock, and two coverage moves (in this case including paralysis), you can probably find a switch in on your team, especially considering the ease of scouting considering ferro and lando can both tank the coverage moves. The main thing is that unless you drop rocks then you basically have to pick between getting hard walled by bulky grounds or steels. Not that the situation isnt similar for them

the para thing obviously contrats with klefki with the benefit of being stronger, but it takes up a mega slot and imo has arguably less utility. Idk. Sorry for trying to shit all over this but aggron with all the other c mons are in the spot where i dont even consider them when building usually and never have a problem anyway. Twave would probably catch me off guard if i faced one using it, but thats just because i didnt even know it learned it before this thread. I dont think its exceptionally hard to deal with by any means, and bulky steel with twave isnt really something unique to aggron.

~

Anywayyyy i think absol is bad. The mixed sets are underwhelming even though its movepool is massive just because its not strong enough to really kill anything. knock off+fire blast wont really kill ferro without investment. Ice beam doesnt kill chomp. It needs a decent investment but it feels bad to waste its massive attack stat doing so. If its defenses werent so atrocious then CM might have had some viability but unfortunately not the case.

I may be out of touch though because i cant remember the last time i saw absol on a team with less than 3 other uu mons on it.

 

[DennisEG]

I support Metagross rise to B rank, Its easily one of the best fairies checks in Balance, BO or Offense teams specially when in OU Mega garde doesn't run Sball yet. Also is able to check Pshychic types and its ability is a plus against physical that try to sponge hits, also have access to priority such as Bullet Punch to check fastest and frail threats such as Weavile or weaken pokemon, in the downside it had 4MSS and a poorly base speed but when you running a tank you always prefer bulk>speed so that's irrelevant.
An excellent offensive pressure doens't make it a dead wheight, over 400 attacks with a strong STAB called Meteor Mash hurts every wall and force it to recover which can be exploited for another teammates, so yeah let's give MetalBoss a B Rank !

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I don't agree with Metagross rising. It's simply too damn overloaded and has no form of recovery... it has to tank Draco Meteors, Moonblasts and Ice Beams and it simply can't last long enough. It's just like AV Goodra except it has more utility options in the form of Bullet Punch and Pursuit, which is what makes it slightly better than Goodra (though Meta does have worse coverage). Honestly, I'd rather use AV Hoopa-U or Bisharp as a check to Latios.

 

[Punchshroom]

I don't agree with Metagross rising. It's simply too damn overloaded and has no form of recovery... it has to tank Draco Meteors, Moonblasts and Ice Beams and it simply can't last long enough. It's just like AV Goodra except it has more utility options in the form of Bullet Punch and Pursuit, which is what makes it slightly better than Goodra (though Meta does have worse coverage). Honestly, I'd rather use AV Hoopa-U or Bisharp as a check to Latios.

Wait, how are these better alternatives to checking Latios than Metagross is? You use the argument that Metagross can't tank things forever, yet you bring up these two that are in no way any better at that (Hoopa-U resists nothing and is even weak to Moonblast, Bisharp is not bulky)? The whole reason one uses Metagross is to reliably Pursuit trap the likes of Latios, Mega Gardevoir, both formes of Alakazam, and Jirachi, as well as soft check things like Mega Diancie and even big bro Mega Metagross to an extent. Also Metagross bops Clefable (while not getting hugely crippled by TWave) which is always a plus.

Metagross doesn't do that much, but it does what it can fairly consistently, and its rank should reflect how important its niche is right now, and how often one wants its services. AV Hoopa-U and AV Bisharp are just bad in comparison.

 

[TPP]

I don't agree with Metagross rising. It's simply too damn overloaded and has no form of recovery... it has to tank Draco Meteors, Moonblasts and Ice Beams and it simply can't last long enough. It's just like AV Goodra except it has more utility options in the form of Bullet Punch and Pursuit, which is what makes it slightly better than Goodra (though Meta does have worse coverage). Honestly, I'd rather use AV Hoopa-U or Bisharp as a check to Latios.

The set in mind for Metagross involves having an Assault Vest, so it's not gonna be able to use any recovery options other than Drain Punch, but it doesn't have that or anything else. Anyways, you really underestimate Metagross's bulk with an Assault Vest. Also, neither Bisharp nor Hoopa-U wants to switch into a fairy attack, which is something Metagross can actually do really well, and unlike Scizor, it's not afraid to die to a 4X weakness to fire. Metagross's typing allows it to check additional stuff like Mega Alakazam and Mega Gardevoir, and does so without running the risk of easily being KO'd by a move like Focus Blast against Bisharp.
I got some calcs below:

Draco Meteor

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 90-107 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Bisharp: 123-146 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

HP Fire

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 114-135 (31.3 - 37%) -- 75.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Bisharp: 153-182 (47.9 - 57%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

Focus Blast

232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 102-120 (28 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 107-127 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 3HKO

Naturally Bisharp get's 1HKO'd by Focus Blast, and doesn't resist Fairy, so it gets 2HKO'd by Mega Gardevoir, while Metagross eats it up.

Anyways, my main point is that AV Metagross is bulkier than it looks, and it's able to switch into a lot more stuff thanks to it's typing. However, you won't see it switching into literally everything, and other than Psychic and Fairy Types, Metagross won't have to come in. Not to mention it actually has a good amount of bulk to rely on before getting worn down quickly.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Metagross can't punish Defog, for once, and Bisharp can run bulkier spreads if it wants to. Also Hoopa has way more firepower and recovery in Drain Punch. Though honestly, AV Bisharp is garbage bar checking Latios.

Meta is a great check to the Lati twins and fairies, since it lols at Clefable (honestly so does Nidoqueen but she's only C- wtf) and Lati@s. It's definitely better than AV bisharp.

I don't see it reaching B rank since it has NO recovery (Hoopa at least has Drain Punch) or a good utility movepool (Pursuit and BP are the only moves it can use with AV). It's also one of the easiest mons to lure with stuff like TrickScarf Latios. It's probably no better than stuff like Toxicroak and Thundy-T.

 

[yuruuu]

Metagross can't punish Defog, for once, and Bisharp can run bulkier spreads if it wants to. Also Hoopa has way more firepower and recovery in Drain Punch. Though honestly, AV Bisharp is garbage bar checking Latios.

Meta is a great check to the Lati twins and fairies, since it lols at Clefable (honestly so does Nidoqueen but she's only C- wtf) and Lati@s. It's definitely better than AV bisharp.

I don't see it reaching B rank since it has NO recovery (Hoopa at least has Drain Punch) or a good utility movepool (Pursuit and BP are the only moves it can use with AV). It's also one of the easiest mons to lure with stuff like TrickScarf Latios. It's probably no better than stuff like Toxicroak and Thundy-T.

No one is saying that AV Metagross is better than Bisharp, but it has a very significant role in compressing a draco switch in, priority, and pursuiting opponents. The lack of recovery isn't even that bad because if you are pursuiting Latis, you aren't going to be taking repeated Draco meteors.

And if you are comparing it to Toxicroak and Thundy-T...lol

e: nidoqueen checks clefable too, but it doesn't even come close to the utility Metagross brings.

 

[XRAGNA XZ]

A- -> A Raikou should be A, Idk why it dropped but I personally think CM Raikou is really threatening to majority of teams out there. Also having Sub+ TBolt+HP Ice makes it extremely difficult to stop him from setting up and further destroying everyone after +1 or +2 SAtk. It isn't as fast as M-Manectric, but it has his strong sides so A rank is fine, cause it still has trouble with Excadrill, Ferro, Heatran and CM Lati.

A+ -> A Hippodown was mainly to check M-Zard X, Talonflame, Volcarona and majority of Fire and Electric type mons. But now with CM Raikou and CM Lati rising up in usage, Hippo gets easily worn down by those, not to mention his common checks like Serperior, M-Venu and most common grass types. Also will-o-wisp Zard-X and Talonflame are also being more common which Hippo doesn't appreciate. M-Sableye stayed in OU so that's another problem for Hippo as it can bounce back rocks, whirlwind, toxic and will-o-wisp him back.

 

[blank]

I don't agree with Metagross rising. It's simply too damn overloaded and has no form of recovery... it has to tank Draco Meteors, Moonblasts and Ice Beams and it simply can't last long enough. It's just like AV Goodra except it has more utility options in the form of Bullet Punch and Pursuit, which is what makes it slightly better than Goodra (though Meta does have worse coverage). Honestly, I'd rather use AV Hoopa-U or Bisharp as a check to Latios.

Team Pokepals provided some great calcs where you can see that AV bisharp really doesn't check much outside latis, and even against latios, it's taking a hefty amount from a draco meteor on switch-in. fact of the matter is that bisharp isn't as bulky as metagross, and AV meta can provide more role compression (in the stuff that it checks). AV bisharp doesn't check things like mega gardevoir, mega alakazam, regular alakazam, and (as i mentioned) the latis as effectively as metagross. also, metagross is actually capable of checking some fairies thanks to resisting fairy moves, having more bulk, and having access to bullet punch and meteor mash. both have around the same attack on the typical AV sets they run (both are at 375 atk with the standard sets i'm running), but metagross getting access to those moves + traits that make it actually decent against fairies can help with making a build more efficient. that's what role compression is~

Punchshroom already did a good job with explaining AV hoopa-u in comparison to bish and meta, and there isn't really much to say there anyways.

i understand looking at other pokemon of similar ranks & comparing a pokemon by relativity (what you did with toxicroak & thundy-t v. metagross), but comparing AV goodra and AV metagross is just silly. yes, both of them are bulky and have AV sets, but other than that, they don't really have much in common. while metagross is used to check the psychic and fairy types everyone has been going on about, goodra checks (well, counters) things like offensive electrics (magnezone, mega manectric, raikou, etc.), specially offensive fires (char-y, heatran), serperior, and torn-t & keld kinda i guess. also, they're kinda a way's apart on the viability rankings considering goodra is C and metagross is B- (nom'd for B), so the whole relativity thing doesn't really apply here. on the topic of those ranks, goodra's lower and metagross is higher for a reason: goodra's pretty bad and metagross isn't. i just don't really understand why you kinda compared the two, going as far as to say that metagross is only slightly better than goodra lol...

 

[MikeDawg]

Ask Omegasization about how I used my non-cm clefable as his av Metagross counter.

 

[Heatmor]

Ask Omegasization about how I used my non-cm clefable as his av Metagross counter.

Can't you tell what you used?


Hey, I was scrolling through the OU Discussion for a while, and I noticed that Marquis Of Blaze made a rate about Zygarde moving from C Rank to C- Rank, so I'm going to elaborate on what he said.
Zygarde is almost always overlooked in terms of competitive Pokemon because of one simple thing: It's outclassed by Garchomp. And it is. Garchomp is a completely superior offensive Pokemon that outclassjkkes any offensively-oriented set Zygarde will use. Zygarde's movepool is shallow, predictable, and most importantly wallable, meaning that it will lose to almost all OU Walls, like Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Slowbro. Garchomp is one of the most versatile things in OU, which makes it one of the most used Pokemon ever, and one of- if not the most- significant. Garchomp is probably the most competitively relevant thing on the planet.

Zygarde almost has none of that.
Zygarde is slower, and doesn't hit very hard. It has a bad offensive movepool, a competitively useless ability, and it is almost thrown into disuse. However, once you see beyond this, there are qualities that Zygarde has that are better than Garchomp...
Zygarde has superior defenses, and fortunately has the movepool to run great defensively-oriented sets, such as a Defensive Shuffler Set (Imo I think it's the best Shuffler in the game). It has two moves, ExtremeSpeed and Dragon Dance, that Garchomp would literally commit murder to get, allowing it to run a halfway decent bulky Dragon Dance set.

It may not be perfect, it may not be viable, but one thing that it is is that it's underrated. C- Rank is definitely a little harsh for the poor EcoSnake, which is actually not that bad if you get to use it. So my opinion is C Rank.

 

[BlazeLatias]

Decided to chip in about av metagross although im pretty sure team pokepals pretty much said everything im gonna say. Having used this myself quite a few times its honestly a pretty effective pursuit mon. While its true it cant deter hazard removal like bisharp can av meta has quite a lot of bulk which makes it more effective as a pursuit trapper. if you look at other pursuit users in the tier how many of those like taking draco meteors? none of them outside of av metagross really. So while its true it cant pressure hazard removal like bisharp the extra bulk means metagross will be capable of taking more special hits for the rest of the match. (bisharp also has to play a 50/50 vs latis) As far as av tanks go in the tier you got torn,meta,hoopa,azu,bisharp and kyurem-b. Out of all of these metagross is probably one of the better switch ins to the lati's and the only one of two that can trap them. On top of this Metagross is the only one of these av users mentioned that can take hard hitting fairy type attacks think mega diancie which is a pokemon that is a huge threat to offense where you commonly would want to use av metagross. I think it carves out a solid niche for itself as a av user for these reasons and is definitely one of the better av users right now.

Also im not saying Av metagross is better then Av tornadus just saying it can take on the latis better.

 

[pika pal]

The big thing to me about Metagross as a Pursuit user is his consistency as such. Not just his bulk in managing to get into things, but the fact that once facing the trapped mon, Metagross doesn't have to tread carefully much at all to pressure the mon. Bisharp and T-tar are playing a 50/50 since they get hurt pretty bad if the mon they're trying to trap doesn't switch (Lati's can hurt with Draco or a coverage move, or Latias can use the sac with Healing Wish, while Gengar has Wisp and Focus Blast), and both can be forced out hard by typical Pursuit answers like Fairies or Keldeo. Metagross is safe to click Pursuit in front of these mons, as there's not often much they can do to threaten him on the same magnitude they do Bisharp or T-tar

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 226-268 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
160+ Atk Metagross Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 140-166 (54 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Metagross does the role of a Pursuit Trapper the best on paper to me: he exerts pressure and puts the opposing mon in a bad situation without strings attached like prediction, nor does he have to be in peak condition to deal with them or certain teammates. The other two still can have something to fear from the targets they try to trap depending on potential Utility moves or Lure options they may carry (I've seen an occasional Lure Latios with Surf or HP Fighting for T-Tar).

Metagross doesn't have the same lucrative potential that some other mons do, but the degree of great consistency it shows in what is still a semi-common and considerable role warrant a B-Rank rise in my opinion.

 

[bludz]

Altaria A+ -> A

Something I brought up maybe a month or two ago but it was too early, TDK brought it up again when we were just talking. I've used it a little recently and it seriously struggles to put in work a lot of the time. Offensive DD honestly has problems setting up in this metagame with Weavile, all the steel types and the billion powerful attackers that do tons of damage to it. Even at +1 it's susceptible to a lot of priority and is walled by a lot of common stuff like Ferro and Skarm. DDD sets up more easily but is just hard walled by a ton of shit and mixed sets seem kinda nice til you realize that Clefable just comes in. The conglomeration of threats that Altaria can check is nice on paper but with all the offensive power running around it gets overwhelmed and has problems putting on its own pressure even after a DD.

Rotom-Wash A- -> A

Sand is good, Talon is good, Torn-T is really good. Tons of offensive teams are annoyed by this thing and it's also pretty solid glue for a lot of squads as well. Rise of some grass types is annoying for it, but those are mostly the offensive ones while the more defensive ones Mega Venu and Celebi have fallen out of favor a bit. Volt-Turn is great currently and countering Lando-T is big especially when the meta has sort of prepped for Chomp and Lando is taking its place on more teams now.

Manaphy drop is another thing that's being considered, the metagame has adapted to it a lot and even with the demise of Goth stall there's still a lot of things working against Manaphy. That said I'm not totally sold but yeah.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Altaria A+ -> A

Something I brought up maybe a month or two ago but it was too early, TDK brought it up again when we were just talking. I've used it a little recently and it seriously struggles to put in work a lot of the time. Offensive DD honestly has problems setting up in this metagame with Weavile, all the steel types and the billion powerful attackers that do tons of damage to it. Even at +1 it's susceptible to a lot of priority and is walled by a lot of common stuff like Ferro and Skarm. DDD sets up more easily but is just hard walled by a ton of shit and mixed sets seem kinda nice til you realize that Clefable just comes in. The conglomeration of threats that Altaria can check is nice on paper but with all the offensive power running around it gets overwhelmed and has problems putting on its own pressure even after a DD.

Rotom-Wash A- -> A

Sand is good, Talon is good, Torn-T is really good. Tons of offensive teams are annoyed by this thing and it's also pretty solid glue for a lot of squads as well. Rise of some grass types is annoying for it, but those are mostly the offensive ones while the more defensive ones Mega Venu and Celebi have fallen out of favor a bit. Volt-Turn is great currently and countering Lando-T is big especially when the meta has sort of prepped for Chomp and Lando is taking its place on more teams now.

Manaphy drop is another thing that's being considered, the metagame has adapted to it a lot and even with the demise of Goth stall there's still a lot of things working against Manaphy. That said I'm not totally sold but yeah.

^ This, Dude is preaching.

Mega Altaria is a mon that looks good on paper, and when naming answers to it, its easy for people to say well " what if it has X coverage move". Well in the real world it doesnt have everything and every set is stopped by enough things that it doesnt deserve to be A+. For Altaria to be most effective, one of the first things you do is need steels gone and that usually means altaria is paried with Magnezone and then you need hazards and removal, etc, so the teams always come out looking similar. This isnt a characteristic of an A+ mon, needs too much support, and while it does have a lot of variety, each individual set has plenty of answers and I dont think it has any set that puts it in A+. Its just a solid A mon.

Rotom is stupid good, its only issue is sometimes it ends up being the answer to too many mons and cant take all of them on. So its biggest flaw is that it checks too many things lol. Put it A

 

[Kav]

Im with the altaria drop. The only ones i really get work done with are the mixed sets, since otherwise it just finds itself covered by the standard array of fairy checks. Even then its stats leave it barely short of a number if KOs unfortunately.

 

[MikeDawg]

Clefable S -> A​

I know that this nom is going to get a lot of hate, but I know a lot of people that agree with me but have been too afraid to come forward and defy the ranking council. But screw it. Clefable has been unfairly put on a pedestal for way too long when it should hardly even be A-rank. Here is a list of all of the reasons that clefable should have dropped a long time ago:

1. Stats: has anybody even looked at the stats on clefable? It has a BST of 483... lol. no that isn't a typo. Cresselia (a C- RANK!) has a BST of 600! Latios-Mega (a C RANK) has a BST of 700!! I know what you are thinking: "What about slaking and regigigas?". Well, stat's aren't everything, and their abilities make them not viable. Clefable is one of the weakest pokemon in overused in all of the stats. Then you look at something like mega beedrill, though, and you see that it only has a bst of 495 (which is STILL higher than clefable), but it is a top-tier because it has a good distribution. clefable doesn't have any stats that are higher than 95. It cant defend because of its low defense, it cant atack because of its low attack, and it cant sweep because of its low speed. It is a jack of no trades, master of none.

2. Typing: clefable does have a kind of good typing, but it isnt worthy of an s-ranking. It has weaknesses to poison and steel. I'm sorry, but those are such bad types... you have to be a really bad pokemon to be weak to those on the food chain. and if steel is so bad, then why is scizor and lucario such a popular mon? second, it resists bugs and fightings and darks. but first of all, you dont need to resist bug, you can just use stealth rock. dark type doesnt matter because bisharp has a fricken steel move. And fighting is fair, but i dont see why you need to resist it when you can just kill them with moonblast anyway. Meanwhile, it cant hurt fire types or steel types or poison types. what the heck. if clefable and manaphy drop, then half of the s-rank is one of thse before it mega evolves. if you use clefable then you are just asking to be swept by a talonflame or charizard, end of story. not to mention that you literally cant touch ferrothorn or skarmory who will just setup hazards and kill you with iron moves. Clefable would be a lot better if it had for example a fairy/psychic typing (for poison types) or a fairy/fighting typing (for steels). it is good against op dragons, though.

3. 4 Moveslot Syndrome: clefable has a decent (but not great) movepool. for example, it doesnt get baton pass or spikes. but what it does have gives it 4mss. since it has to do a boosting move because of its stats and a healing move because of its bulk. so it gets 2 moves. u have too many choices here. the best is probably thunderbolt + ice beam, probably, but moonblast is also really good. you could run a status move, but its speed isnt too good, and you have to have a lot o coverage to make up for the bad attack stats. if you do try to run your stab moonblast, then you are locked in to 4mss, because fairy has terrible coverage. you cant hit any steels or poisons or fires. hi talonflame and entei. how are you, mr skarmory and mr metagross. where is mr gengar. oh he couldnt make it that's unfortunate. All of them can 1hko/2hko you as well. these are on literally every team and clefable cant do a darn thing to them unless you run ice beam + thunderbolt or toxic (but then it takes a while and you stil cant hit steels and poisons without support).

4. Abilities: the abilities are really good but they dont fit clefable. Magic guard is awesome awesome awesome, but this isn't black white anymore. nobody uses hazards except for the stealth rock but clefable isnt weak to rocks. so there is no point whatsoever unless you make a lot of double switches. unaware is cool... but are you unaware that clefable doesnt have nay defensive stats to begin with? Even with unaware, almost every pkoemon can 1/2hko it even defensive pokemon like ferrothorn. Maybe if you had unaware on blissey then it would be good, but on clefable it just makes a 2hko mon still a 2hko mon (but not a 1hko mon, which is really good). it helps you against op dragons, but they cant hit clefable anyway so, again, its a good ability that is wasted. Cute charm can be good but it is unreliable since showdown randomly sets the genders, so it is obviously the worst one out of the three.

Clefable just isn't as good as the othe rpokemon in the A+ rank and it is very obvious to anybody that has ever played any of the pokemon games. i don't think a single person has ever used clefable inside of omega ruby or alpha saphire because its stuff isnt up to par. Maybe game freak will give it a mega or an evolution and then smogon can have the fairy in S rank, but right now, it is just too countered to be in the top of the overused tier.

 

[skies]

bludz – I made a post on Azelf awhile ago that seemed to garner support (judging by likes + comments towards it); is anything going to happen to it?

 

[bludz]

I'll have to try out that set. It's definitely not going anywhere on the merit of standard sash lead or any fully offensive set

For the record there hasn't been any talk on moving Azelf back up

 

[bludz]

Ok so I haven't been deleting every one liner in sight just because they're not all the worst thing to ever happen to mankind even if the moderating staff such as myself pretended it was the case

That said I'll ask posters to please use your discretion and try to be substantive

 

[Heatmor]

Hey no one seems to really be giving a thought-out paragraph of why this should not be so here goes..

Clefable S -> A​

While you do make very intriguing points, overall I would have to disagree with you. Your point about Mega Latios was invalid because it was outclassed by regular Latios in terms of power, who can do everything Mega Latios does, but with more power. First of all, Clefable has two, VERY USABLE competitive abilities that help make it a great defensive threat as it is today. It has 95/73/90 bulk, which isn't terrible, especially with it's typing and abilities. It can run many sets and is versatile, has great offensive and defensive backbone, and can do many roles well which makes it practically a staple on almost every OU Team. S Rank is perfect for it, but that is just my opinion.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

CelticEdit: removed a passive aggressive part.

Hippo from A rank to A+ rank or S rank

We all know what hippo does, its a bulky powerfull ground with reliable recovery that checks half of the entire tier, can set up SR and the only bulky ground that checks electrics (yes we have gastrodon and that frog that is a wannabe of swampert but the first one lacks SR and raw bulk while the wannabe swampert lacks reliable recovery), and the only reason hippo was downgraded a Rank is because its in passive, well this is a poor excuse because the other grounds (garchomp and landorus T) are passive too when they run defensive sets, they lack reliable recovery and they cant even check electrics cause x4 weakness to hp ice leaving offense to the mercy of those mighty mega manectric or cm raikou, hippo checks those and can even run non defensive sets to wallbreak with life orb sets, thanks to his boosted earthquakes with a full tank set of 252 3vs in hp and attack (slack off, Stealth rock, earthquake, stone edge or ice fang (yo choose yor counters with)) it can 2ohko freaking chansey, ferro, mega sableye, etc and still have the utility to check the physical threaths like lopunny that those wannabes of hippo (defensive chomp) semicheck, cons you are not that bulky but you still check shit like raikou, lopunny or talon at +2.

 

[BlazeLatias]

I know i may sound insane like mikedaw but my proposal is not equally insane as him because i am sane.

Hippo from A rank to A+ rank or S rank

We all know what hippo does, its a bulky powerfull ground with reliable recovery that checks half of the entire tier, can set up SR and the only bulky ground that checks electrics (yes we have gastrodon and that frog that is a wannabe of swampert but the first one lacks SR and raw bulk while the wannabe swampert lacks reliable recovery), and the only reason hippo was downgraded a Rank is because its in passive, well this is a poor excuse because the other grounds (garchomp and landorus T) are passive too when they run defensive sets, they lack reliable recovery and they cant even check electrics cause x4 weakness to hp ice leaving offense to the mercy of those mighty mega manectric or cm raikou, hippo checks those and can even run non defensive sets to wallbreak with life orb sets, thanks to his boosted earthquakes with a full tank set of 252 3vs in hp and attack (slack off, Stealth rock, earthquake, stone edge or ice fang (yo choose yor counters with)) it can 2ohko freaking chansey, ferro, mega sableye, etc and still have the utility to check the physical threaths like lopunny that those wannabes of hippo (defensive chomp) semicheck, cons you are not that bulky but you still check shit like raikou, lopunny or talon at +2.

Hippo for s rank? you cant be serious. Hippowdon as good of a defensive mixed wall as it is is not even CLOSE to s rank material in the first place. The metas pretty much adapted to hippowdon and while its still a nice reliable rocks setter its also true that hippowdon is just super passive which leads to him being taken advantage of pretty easy. not to mention hippowdon can even lost to some variants of talonflame think wisp bulk up. Without stone edge you become set up fauder for taunt variants of talonflame also. manaphy is everywhere also which gets invited in pretty much every time hippowdon is out which is a problem. i dont get why you say it checks half the meta as well. Mega scizor uses hippo for set up bait, excadrill can beat it assuming its loon sd, Cm versions of raikou can pressure hippowdon, lopunny with pup is capable of breaking past hippo also. hell even electric types like thundurus can break past hippowdon if its a nasty plot set or lure grass knot. Sd landot has become more popular also while defensive sets are known to carry toxic now which prevents hippo from taking landot on as good. litteraly every water and grass type in the tier checks hippowdon because of how passive he is also. while its true hippo can take quite a few hits its not all that hard to pressure hippowdon like lol. almost all the wallbreakers in the tier pressure him. Also id honestly say chomp takes on lop better as rocky helmet+Rough skin damage pressure lop so much more because of the passive damage. Hippowdons not as good as it once was honestly a drop would make more sense then a rise. Hippo cant check over half the meta. Honestly landot and garchomp are more reliable rock setters at least those cant lose to mega scizor and can pressure things because they have a offensive presence even with their defensive sets. (defensive sd landot is actually a thing as is sd rocky chomp and even then landot has like 323 atk and chomp hits 293 uninvested)

Hippowdon should not rise.

 

[Yugi]

I know i may sound insane like mikedaw but my proposal is not equally insane as him because i am sane.

Hippo from A rank to A+ rank or S rank

We all know what hippo does, its a bulky powerfull ground with reliable recovery that checks half of the entire tier, can set up SR and the only bulky ground that checks electrics (yes we have gastrodon and that frog that is a wannabe of swampert but the first one lacks SR and raw bulk while the wannabe swampert lacks reliable recovery), and the only reason hippo was downgraded a Rank is because its in passive, well this is a poor excuse because the other grounds (garchomp and landorus T) are passive too when they run defensive sets, they lack reliable recovery and they cant even check electrics cause x4 weakness to hp ice leaving offense to the mercy of those mighty mega manectric or cm raikou, hippo checks those and can even run non defensive sets to wallbreak with life orb sets, thanks to his boosted earthquakes with a full tank set of 252 3vs in hp and attack (slack off, Stealth rock, earthquake, stone edge or ice fang (yo choose yor counters with)) it can 2ohko freaking chansey, ferro, mega sableye, etc and still have the utility to check the physical threaths like lopunny that those wannabes of hippo (defensive chomp) semicheck, cons you are not that bulky but you still check shit like raikou, lopunny or talon at +2.

Your definetly are overselling Hippos capabilities.Ill list these thing

1.Typing: His typing isnt that great.It gets beat by manaphy,Weavile,Slowbro Even Defensive Will DD Zard X.Zard Y hurts him too due to the fact that it decimates every single hippo set,It gets destroyed by Latios,also rotom wash just walls and decimates the shit out of hippowdon,keldeo makes hippowdon his bubble gum,Serperior makes hippi his set up fodder,Every SINGLE azumarill set destroys Hippowdon,Starmie... and many more.

2.Abilities:Its abilities arent something to be desired either.While it has a good ability to support some sand abusers its not that great,tbh.I dont have much to say.