Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Kibblecat]

This guy - I don't think he needs to move down. Disclaimer: I've mostly used an Adamant LO set myself, I definitely need to use some other sets a bit more.

Comparing him to B ranked wallbreakers Victini, Mega Chomp and Mega Gallade; in terms of teambuilding, he's both less prepared for than Victini and harder to prepare for (and is only beaten on raw power by Banded Victini sets, and I say that on the premise that banded Diggers is pretty suboptimal given his coverage), although he's less comparable because they function totally differently and Diggers can't go mixed. More comparable are Mega Gallade and Mega Chomp: Using him is much less restrictive than Mega Gallade and Mega Chomp because of the mega slot. Diggers is functionally a very comparable breaker to those two too, when considered their respective SD sets, which is why I think his ranking should reflect him being harder to prepare for, generally less prepared for, much more versatile (scope for all out attacking, SD, scarf and band sets, very adjustable coverage, excellent STABs, priority, and paralysis immunity), and not holding up the mega slot.

He has a pretty defined niche over other B+ offensive mons too, while being in the grand scheme of things not much better or worse, which means he has a good reason to still be in B+. His ground type STAB, Thunder Wave immunity, access to U-Turn, and SR resistance give him niches over Dragonite, Terrakion, and Feraligatr, and he hits harder off the bat than all of those without needing to boost, while still having the scope to use SD himself (similarly the others have niches over him ofc). His harder hits, access to U-turn, and more adjustable coverage (elemental punches/wild charge) give him a slight niche over Mamo too.

I can see the main arguments for shifting him down; he's basically got the curse of being an offensive mon that can end up being deadweight against opposing offense, while being stuck in a meta that's shifting towards offense. He doesn't hit the right speed tier to force out a lot of balance staples either (read: Manaphy), which is the main thing that's kept such a powerful wallbreaker out of A-. Most sets are hard-walled by Gengar of all things, too. Tell me if I've missed something huge but I don't think these are enough issues to drop him below B+ as he's pretty adaptable to these problems. Switching in on Diggers is always a prediction war, while Diggers himself usually hits hard enough to dent things even with resisted hits. While most variants of his wallbreaking sets are dead against offense, his scarf set is actually quite threatening to offense easily able to surprise things like MegaMane, Torn-T, non-scarf Keldeo, and Mega Lop. Not to mention, he's simply so much less predictable than other B and B+ wallbreakers/scarfers, and much more adaptable to your team. He's more self-sufficient offensively than most of them too, which makes him a lot easier to fit onto a team than one might think.

TLDR: Keep Diggersby in B+; moving him down doesn't do him justice when considering how he compares to the mons around him

 

[Heatmor]

I think Whimsicott should rise a rank or two. Having access to Prankster and Encore is extremely valuable, especially in a metagame where stat boosting moves are seen in many teams. 3 of the mons in S rank, Mega Charizard X, Clefable, and Manaphy, are checked by Whimsicott and are prevented from setting up do to the fact that Whimsicott can just go in and lock them into a move. The utility it brings to balanced teams is simply amazing. Whimsicott's typing also allows it to check/counter other popular mons in OU, such as Keldeo, Latis, Kingdra, Dragonite, Lopunny, Medicham, and many more. It offers even more utility with access to Stun Spore, Toxic, Knock Off, Leech Seed, and Tailwind. Do to the fact that it's great support to balance and it's ability to shut down setup sweepers, Whimsicott should rise. C rank is way too low for the little transgender collie flower.

I'm thinking B-. Whimsicott is one of those Pokemon that is extremely good (And Annoying) if played right. As a 1v1 Guru, unfortunately I have encountered and lost to Whimsicott many times. It is great at trolling matches, has a good utility moveset, and can run Stall-Troll and Utility sets very efficiently. What's more that it has Prankster, allowing it to shut down so many threats and setup sweepers, with Taunt and other moves. It provides valuable support for its team, from shutting down setup sweepers, to boosting speed with Tailwind, and in conclusion I think it's a very underrated Pokemon that should be considered for your Overused Team.

 

[bludz]

Uh yeah Whimsicott's defenses are actually really bad. So even with that nice typing, for example it can't come in on Latios whatsoever because Psyshock blows it back unless you're fully defensive, in which case HP Fire does a ton. It's hardly taking on Kingdra in rain either nor is it taking Specs Keldeo on very well at all. Basically that list of threats are things that it checks in a 1v1 scenario but it can't switch into reliably - which is kind of pitiful based on the fact that it only 1v1s based on typing anyway. It has some nice utility but lack of longevity kind of relegates it to being a worse Thundurus (Prankster Para) with a better set of resistances but with very little offensive pressure. Klefki is another comparison I guess which capitalizes on free turns due to its typing better as well. Sure it has the annoying sets like Sub Leech Seed and moves like Encore and Tailwind but in the long run it applies very little offensive pressure and doesn't really have much longevity. That makes it a weird fit for bulky teams since it has problems staying alive and on offense it's not dead weight per se but it's just sorta passive. A decent pivot / stallbreaking / annoyer option but it shouldn't be touching the B ranks, I can see C+ at best

 

[Srn]

The only real arguments I've seen against Torn's rise is how it is forced to rely on an inaccurate STAB move which can often cost you the match if you happen to miss, which is does quite often. However, Hurricane is such a threatening move on its own that just the sheer possibility of Torn-T landing Hurricane just a few times can really pressure the opponent, and oftentimes will depend heavily on it missing in order to gain momentum, which on its own, should prove just how influential and dangerous Torn-T is, and how despite its accuracy, Hurricane's upsides heavily outweigh the miss chance.

Honestly, to kind of summarize whether or not torn-t goes to S, i think it depends on how much you care about hurricane's 70% accuracy, which you pointed out well.
If you think it's a big issue (I do), then you're against it going to S.
And if you think its worth it (you do), then you're for it rising to S.

I think its terrible to have offensive pressure 70% of the time and check threats 70% of the time but hey; how you view hurricane's accuracy dictates where you stand with this nom, pretty much.

 

[Anacleto]

My problem is that Hurricane accuracy has little to do with how the opponent plays around your Tornadus, and thus I don't find it so relevant in this discussion as others make it to be.

Staying in with your Keldeo/Serperior/whatever is threatened by Hurricane banking on a miss is moronic; you either stay in predicting a u-turn, in which case the opportunity cost is in favour of Tornadus because he fuckin outspeeds you most of the times and can u-turn into a safe switch in keeping the momentum, or you stay in because all your Tornadus lolcounters and lolchecks are worn down with the Kock + U-turn bullcrap and you have now to dodge a Hurricane as a last resort gameplan (or maybe dodge two if you can't oneshot him).

Let's also not forget about the chance of getting screwed by a Hurricane confusion which is not negligible at all considering it's the same chance of a scald burn, plus all the other nice things that Torn brings to the table that have been extensively discussed.

This is my last word on the topic but yeah Torn-t is S-tier all day

Hope you've had a nice christmas my dear kids

 

[MikeDawg]

Your low-risk, relatively low-reward plays are u-turn and knock off. The opponent predicts this play and leaves his keldeo in on the u-turn. You extra predict and decide to go for the higher risk, high reward hurricane. Yay! You predicted correctly, but you missed (51% of the time over two uses) and keldeo gets to do whatever (probably scald). Tornadus (especially lo) doesn't like this in the later game when hurricane becomes more of a neccesit than early on. Your good prediction turned on you 3/10 times. You could also say this about any Mon that always runs focus blast, but none of those are in S-rank, are they? If I'm not mistaken, nothing in S runs an attack with lower than 100% accuracy (exception being sableye will-o). The absoluteness of this fact (100%) is telling to what often defines such a strong threat: reliability. It doesn't matter if the opponent has to play around a hypothetical always-hitting hurricane; you are the one that is losing the games from the misses!

Alternative scenario that doesn't require you to predict and loses you even more games:
Manaphy is out and at +3 and weakened, ready to sweep your team late game. They dealt with your raikou already, but torn managed to stick around because of obvious pivot utility. Tornadus is the last thing that can outspeed and ko (via hurricane). Yay good thing we packed such a strong, fast mon. It will take care of this situation super easi- oops I missed. Bad game, ur a haxxer. Man I always get haxxed like when megabro swept me cuz of my hurricane miss. And when charizard swept me cuz of my hurricane miss. And when Metagross swept me cuz of my rare heat wave miss. And that darn clefable paralyzed me when I tried to nail the ko with hurricane. Man, you would think that this hax happens almost 1/3 of my games! At least sometimes I can play around tornadus' screw-up because my opponent didn't capitalize on hurricane increasing the reward:risk ratio when im finally face to face with tornadus. Or I had a good matchup. Or I just played overall better than my opp this game. Now that the manaphy is out of the way, I just need one more ko on that weakened clefable and oops, that darn 51% chance to miss at least 1/2 hurricanes. Oh well. It's only pokemon.

Accuracy is a huge issue. But like srn said, the difference between S and A+ is whether you think it is a 7/10 problem or a 4/10 problem (if you think it is more insignificant than that then you are delusional). <---That will presumably be determined by personal experiences, playstyles, etc., but it is objectively subjective nonetheless.

 

[Eminent Doom]

Your low-risk, relatively low-reward plays are u-turn and knock off. The opponent predicts this play and leaves his keldeo in on the u-turn. You extra predict and decide to go for the higher risk, high reward hurricane. Yay! You predicted correctly, but you missed (51% of the time over two uses) and keldeo gets to do whatever (probably scald). Tornadus (especially lo) doesn't like this in the later game when hurricane becomes more of a neccesit than early on. Your good prediction turned on you 3/10 times. You could also say this about any Mon that always runs focus blast, but none of those are in S-rank, are they? If I'm not mistaken, nothing in S runs an attack with lower than 100% accuracy (exception being sableye will-o). The absoluteness of this fact (100%) is telling to what often defines such a strong threat: reliability. It doesn't matter if the opponent has to play around a hypothetical always-hitting hurricane; you are the one that is losing the games from the misses!

Alternative scenario that doesn't require you to predict and loses you even more games:
Manaphy is out and at +3 and weakened, ready to sweep your team late game. They dealt with your raikou already, but torn managed to stick around because of obvious pivot utility. Tornadus is the last thing that can outspeed and ko (via hurricane). Yay good thing we packed such a strong, fast mon. It will take care of this situation super easi- oops I missed. Bad game, ur a haxxer. Man I always get haxxed like when megabro swept me cuz of my hurricane miss. And when charizard swept me cuz of my hurricane miss. And when Metagross swept me cuz of my rare heat wave miss. And that darn clefable paralyzed me when I tried to nail the ko with hurricane. Man, you would think that this hax happens almost 1/3 of my games! At least sometimes I can play around tornadus' screw-up because my opponent didn't capitalize on hurricane increasing the reward:risk ratio when im finally face to face with tornadus. Or I had a good matchup. Or I just played overall better than my opp this game. Now that the manaphy is out of the way, I just need one more ko on that weakened clefable and oops, that darn 51% chance to miss at least 1/2 hurricanes. Oh well. It's only pokemon.

Accuracy is a huge issue. But like srn said, the difference between S and A+ is whether you think it is a 7/10 problem or a 4/10 problem (if you think it is more insignificant than that then you are delusional). <---That will presumably be determined by personal experiences, playstyles, etc., but it is objectively subjective nonetheless.

I would just like to point out I lost a game where my AV Tornadus missed three straight Hurricanes against the opposing Serperior, which was the last thing I had to out speed said Serperior. As silly of an argument against a Pokémon rising as it is, it is very difficult to depend on a Hurricane hitting the opponent when the accuracy is so terrible to begin with. Especially if it will cost you the match or not.

I wouldn't be opposed to Tornadus rising to S, but depending on a low accuracy move to hit is really the downfall of this thing. But it isn't exactly a big one.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I mean, anyone can make up scenarios to make their point. What if Hurricane hit? What if the opponent switched and I hit and confused and they hit themselves and I kill? Anything could be said to counter these points.

When people vote for Pokemon no one, and I do mean No One, goes "It should be S, also all of its moves are 100% accurate". Why is that all of a sudden the deciding factor here?

I'm not exactly the most fond of it becoming S, it is an amazing Pokemon, but I'm not entirely sure it's an exceptionally metagame defining Pokemon. Regardless, I'm not sure why the accuracy of its moves are all of a sudden the deciding factor. Prior to the meta shifting to conform to Metagross, Accuracy wasn't a problem, and its 2 most powerful moves were not 100% accurate. "But it's 90% accurate" that doesn't mean anything, it's not 100% accurate therefore it is not 100% reliable according to the logic being used here. Hydro Pump being 80% accurate wasn't the reason Keldeo dropped, Play Rough missing 10% of the time isn't the reason Azu dropped. Why is it all of a sudden the reason Torn shouldn't rise to S?

Again, I am not completely for Torn moving to S, but saying the accuracy of its move is the reason it shouldn't rise, is REALLY stretching.

 

[jordanthejq12]

I mean, anyone can make up scenarios to make their point. What if Hurricane hit? What if the opponent switched and I hit and confused and they hit themselves and I kill? Anything could be said to counter these points.

When people vote for Pokemon no one, and I do mean No One, goes "It should be S, also all of its moves are 100% accurate". Why is that all of a sudden the deciding factor here?

I'm not exactly the most fond of it becoming S, it is an amazing Pokemon, but I'm not entirely sure it's an exceptionally metagame defining Pokemon. Regardless, I'm not sure why the accuracy of its moves are all of a sudden the deciding factor. Prior to the meta shifting to conform to Metagross, Accuracy wasn't a problem, and its 2 most powerful moves were not 100% accurate. "But it's 90% accurate" that doesn't mean anything, it's not 100% accurate therefore it is not 100% reliable according to the logic being used here. Hydro Pump being 80% accurate wasn't the reason Keldeo dropped, Play Rough missing 10% of the time isn't the reason Azu dropped. Why is it all of a sudden the reason Torn shouldn't rise to S?

Again, I am not completely for Torn moving to S, but saying the accuracy of its move is the reason it shouldn't rise, is REALLY stretching.

90% (or even 80%) is not 70%. You have as good of a chance of missing, say, a Meteor Mash or Play Rough as you do scoring a Flamethrower burn. Your odds of whiffing a Hurricane equal that of a Scald burn.

It's not that Hurricane can miss, it's that Hurricane has such a high chance to miss relative to anything else save Focus Blast, and your other moves can only carry you so far. Meanwhile that's your STAB, and it's not like you can just run Air Slash, since you will end up missing some KOs.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

90% (or even 80%) is not 70%. You have as good of a chance of missing, say, a Meteor Mash or Play Rough as you do scoring a Flamethrower burn. Your odds of whiffing a Hurricane equal that of a Scald burn.

It's not that Hurricane can miss, it's that Hurricane has such a high chance to miss relative to anything else save Focus Blast, and your other moves can only carry you so far. Meanwhile that's your STAB, and it's not like you can just run Air Slash, since you will end up missing some KOs.

Yea, they are as likely as getting a scald burn. Sometimes you get the burn, sometimes you don't either way your chances of hitting are FAR more likely than they are to miss. The point is, the argument is "It's not 100% reliable". Neither was Meteor Mash, neither was Zen Headbutt, neither was Hydro, Play Rough or Stone Edge.

Knock off, U-Turn, and Superpower can only carry you so far? I guess being an amazing utility 'mon can only carry you so far. I mean, really, what does having a stupid fast Knock off do for you? What does having an extremely fast U-Turn do? What does Regen do for you? It's an amazing utility Pokemon, that is the point here. Yea, it's main STAB attack isn't the most accurate move, but it's got AMAZING features outside of that. It can be used on ANY team that isn't stall, it stays alive for what seems like forever, it's relatively strong, it has amazing move coverage, its moves that it carries are amazing for being supportive, it's stupid fast, and it has Regenerator. Completely shoving those to the side because you have a 30% chance to miss seems absolutely ridiculous to me.

 

[Heatmor]

Wait, I thought the argument about Tornadus-Therian was over.

Anyway, I have mixed feelings. Of Moose & Men is completely right about his point that Hurricane's accuracy shouldn't really disregard the many other options Tornadus-T does have which has gotten it to A+ Rank in the first place. It's Speed Tier allows it to outpace about 80% of the metagame, and it is pretty versatile, running offensive, pivots, and utility sets pretty well. It's weakness to SR is arguably negated by Regenerator, and it generally survives the entire match. So why not S Rank?
In my opinion, the reason a lot of people are against ascending Tornadus-Therian is because one of it's only powerful offensive moves, Hurricane, has a noticeably shaky accuracy ratio, which allows it to kill things like Keldeo, Mega Venusaur, and others. From what I can see, none of the current S-Rank mons really have any troubles with accuracy, but the thing is that Tornadus-Therian can do so many better things than spamming Hurricane. With a 110 Special Attack Tornadus-Therian cannot do any real damage without LO, and is generally too frail without AV.

Despite these flaws, overall I would have to agree with it being S Rank. Accuracy issues, while major, shouldn't be overcentralizing in my opinion because there are ways to work around this. Tornadus-Therian is a dangerous offensive threat, a good pivot, and sports longevity which makes it deserving of S Rank.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Knock off, U-Turn, and Superpower can only carry you so far? I guess being an amazing utility 'mon can only carry you so far. I mean, really, what does having a stupid fast Knock off do for you? What does having an extremely fast U-Turn do? What does Regen do for you? It's an amazing utility Pokemon, that is the point here. Yea, it's main STAB attack isn't the most accurate move, but it's got AMAZING features outside of that. It can be used on ANY team that isn't stall, it stays alive for what seems like forever, it's relatively strong, it has amazing move coverage, its moves that it carries are amazing for being supportive, it's stupid fast, and it has Regenerator. Completely shoving those to the side because you have a 30% chance to miss seems absolutely ridiculous to me.

Well, that's why it's A+, isn't it? Clearly one of the best in A+, otherwise we wouldn't be having substantive discussion for it to move up.

Thing is, when we're talking about S Rank, when we're talking about truly metagame-defining Pokemon, I think we have every right to nitpick. Hurricane accuracy issues may not mean so much if this were A to A+, but as others have said, one of the traits of the other S-rankers is reliability. Torn's support and defensive capabilities are incredible, and LO sets can put out huge amounts of damage, especially when you do land your Hurricanes. But when you can't rely on pivoting or Knocking Off anymore, you have to roll the dice, and that risk just seems too much for an S-ranker.

As Srn put it, quite wonderfully:

Honestly, to kind of summarize whether or not torn-t goes to S, i think it depends on how much you care about hurricane's 70% accuracy, which you pointed out well.
If you think it's a big issue (I do), then you're against it going to S.
And if you think its worth it (you do), then you're for it rising to S.

 

[nameless90]

Yea, they are as likely as getting a scald burn. Sometimes you get the burn, sometimes you don't either way your chances of hitting are FAR more likely than they are to miss. The point is, the argument is "It's not 100% reliable". Neither was Focus Blast.

Comments in bold to underline the fact that 30% chance to miss the attack means that you are probably get your Tornadus-T badly damaged or a free switch-in and, in my humble opinion, a S-rank threat.

The other movesyou mentioned have all one thing in common: better accuracy.
90% accuracy = you'll miss 1/10 of the time
80% accuracy = you'll miss 1/5 of the time
70% accuracy = you'll miss almost 1/3 of the time ===> let's be honest, it's a lot in terms of consistency for a "supposed S-threat". Manaphy, Clefable, Mega Sableye and Mega Charizard X do their job more consistently: they have not so much trouble with the accuracy of their own moves.

Not only that but:
(1) if holding a Life Orb, Tornadus-T shortens further its lifespan (due to its middling bulk) and missing a move means that you lost a 121 base Spe cleaner. Hurricane is picked over Air Slash because -IF hits- provides some OHKOs with little support while the latter can't do on some key threats weak to this move (i.e. Defensive Mega-Venusaur, Volcarona, Keldeo) and if fails to hit Tornadus takes much damage in return from the monsters it is supposed to kill;
(2) if holding an AV, Tornadus-T is lacking the power to OHKO or 2HKO (bar supereffective hits). Tornadus has other utility moves in the form of Knock Off, U-Turn, Heat Wave, Sludge Wave
(3) suffers Volt Switch users being weak to this move and being weak to Stealth Rock (while Regenerator is a good ability, Tornadus-T is not natually bulky enough)

Tornadus-T is very fast, has good mixed offences alongside many coverage moves but has middling bulk and typing (if you run this pokemon, you will have to stack another Rock, Ice and Electric weakness to your team) with a main STAB that troubles even itself almost 30% of the time.

Seriously, there is no shame in being only an A+ monster.

 

[bludz]

I don't really think the accuracy of Hurricane is the best argument for Torn to not rise (or at least the way many arguments using it have been presented). Now I'm not saying it isn't relevant but you have to consider when someone stays in on a Hurricane hoping for a miss they're taking a calculated risk that is not in their favor. It is certainly bad for breaking walls that spam Roost or whatever but the whole "I'ma stay in with Keldeo on the U-turn" is just a terrible play most of the time since Torn can Hurricane and U-turn out the turn after without too much repercussion in most situations.

Anyway opinions seem to be pretty split on Torn at the moment so it's probably going to stay A+. I think the ranking team is a bit more inclined on raise but it's not unanimous so probably no movement for the time being.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Since we're talking about Torn-T, I'd like to nom Rhyperior to B-. Especially if Torn goes to S rank for some reason (though I still don't agree because hurrimiss).

The increase in popularity of Torn-T is good news for Rhy, as it doesn't really care about anything (bar losing its leftovers i guess) Torn-T throws at it and can set up rocks on it fairly easily, or Dragon Tail it away, or go for the kill with good prediction. Its also strong enough to 2HKO most Pokemon on offense, even Manaphy after rocks, considering it runs an Adamant nature. Much like before, it's still good at dismantling bird/electric spam and checking Zard X, Bisharp, Weavile, Scarf Hoopa-U/Tyranitar and Togekiss.

I'd also like to note that Rhyperior can run a fun Choice Band set, which is very difficult to play around, especially for balanced teams as very few Pokemon avoid the 2HKO:

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 190-225 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 190-225 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (yes even hippo can fall...)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 213-252 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 229-270 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This means that unlike other bulky Choice Band users such as Tyranitar, Scizor or Azumarill, Rhyperior doesn't always need to force prediction games against the premier physical walls of OU, since it can just spam Earthquake and let loose because it hits so damn hard.

Of course, there are times when Rhyperior will have to use coverage moves...

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 296-352 (77.4 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 366-432 (100.8 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 290-342 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

...but outside of Lando-T, those cases aren't very common. In a nutshell, Rhyperior can typically spam its STAB EdgeQuake with little impunity. This means Rhyperior can combat walls decently as they switch in expecting the tank set, only to get 2HKOed by a STAB.

Sooooo yeah, Rhyperior is becoming better in this meta, and the rankings should reflect that. B-

Edit: people want Mega Alt to drop? Remember this thing still has one of the best defensive typings in the game, and while shit like Weavile and Mega Manectric are everywhere nowadays, Jolly DD variants can still beat them even if it means tanking an Ice Shard to the face... not to mention its still pretty damn versatile, with crap like special sets to beat MegaBro and Hippo, the incredibly annoying DDD (especially if it has Cotton Guard) or a status remover... I personally think you shouldn't run Fire Blast on DD sets though, as stuff like Ferro/Skarmory are honestly really easy to lure with Alt's partners, and Alt should just stick to good ol' Roost. Just my 2 cents though.

 

[Alfalfa]

Since we're talking about Torn-T, I'd like to nom Rhyperior to B-. Especially if Torn goes to S rank for some reason (though I still don't agree because hurrimiss).

The increase in popularity of Torn-T is good news for Rhy, as it doesn't really care about anything (bar losing its leftovers i guess) Torn-T throws at it and can set up rocks on it fairly easily, or Dragon Tail it away, or go for the kill with good prediction. Its also strong enough to 2HKO most Pokemon on offense, even Manaphy after rocks, considering it runs an Adamant nature. Much like before, it's still good at dismantling bird/electric spam and checking Zard X, Bisharp, Weavile, Scarf Hoopa-U/Tyranitar and Togekiss.

I'd also like to note that Rhyperior can run a fun Choice Band set, which is very difficult to play around, especially for balanced teams as very few Pokemon avoid the 2HKO:

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 190-225 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 190-225 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (yes even hippo can fall...)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 213-252 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 229-270 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This means that unlike other bulky Choice Band users such as Tyranitar, Scizor or Azumarill, Rhyperior doesn't always need to force prediction games against the premier physical walls of OU, since it can just spam Earthquake and let loose because it hits so damn hard.

Of course, there are times when Rhyperior will have to use coverage moves...

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 296-352 (77.4 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 366-432 (100.8 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 290-342 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

...but outside of Lando-T, those cases aren't very common. In a nutshell, Rhyperior can typically spam its STAB EdgeQuake with little impunity. This means Rhyperior can combat walls decently as they switch in expecting the tank set, only to get 2HKOed by a STAB.

Sooooo yeah, Rhyperior is becoming better in this meta, and the rankings should reflect that. B-

Edit: people want Mega Alt to drop? Remember this thing still has one of the best defensive typings in the game, and while shit like Weavile and Mega Manectric are everywhere nowadays, Jolly DD variants can still beat them even if it means tanking an Ice Shard to the face... not to mention its still pretty damn versatile, with crap like special sets to beat MegaBro and Hippo, the incredibly annoying DDD (especially if it has Cotton Guard) or a status remover... I personally think you shouldn't run Fire Blast on DD sets though, as stuff like Ferro/Skarmory are honestly really easy to lure with Alt's partners, and Alt should just stick to good ol' Roost. Just my 2 cents though.

Fire Blast vs. Roost is very team-specific and is mostly dependent on what form of support Mega Altaria is getting from its teammates, to make it clear.
I have already stated before that people need to stop looking at a Pokemon's pros and cons in a nutshell, which have already been stated multiple times before. The real questions you should be answering when bringing up a Pokemon like Mega Altaria are: has the metagame changed to a point where Mega Altaria is not as effective as it used to be? Are common Pokemon capable of pressuring Mega Altaria from putting in work more frequently than a couple of months ago? Are Mega Altaria's capabilities still as useful as they were a couple of months ago? Does what Mega Altaria is capable of doing still make it deserving of the same rank as other Pokemon in A+ Rank? Or is its capabilities just not as necessary or more difficult to perform than it used to be?

And NOT: does Mega Altaria look good in a vaccuum? Can it theoretically beat X Pokemon in any possible scenario? Can it beat some common staple with a usable set? Is Mega Altaria a usable Pokemon?

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Mega Altaria shouldn't drop again. I Don't really know how or where this argument came up in the thread, but it's abundantly clear to me that Malt doesn't deserve A drop. Sure, it's kind of slow, weak to ice shard, And not as strong as competition Mega Charizard X, but it still has hilariously good defensive typing and some solid power and bulk. Furthermore, it has a niche over all of it's competition, being the only fairy-type DD sweeper as well as bulky variants being a solid check to threats like Mlop, Megazard X, Serperior, Dragonite, Mega Manectric and a million other things that rely on Fighting, Dark, Grass, electric and Dragon type attacks to do significant damage. Offensive variants can shear through offensive teams lacking an ice shard user or scarfer, being able to destroy offense staples like garchomp, Mlop (provided Malt is jolly) and keldeo, as well as anything without a very solid amount of physical bulk. Sets that use heal bell or refresh can be a wake up call to defensive teams unprepared for it as well. Mega Altaria dropping simply doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering its many redeeming qualities that make it a dominant force in the OU metagame.

 

[AM]

Mega Altaria shouldn't drop again. I Don't really know how or where this argument came up in the thread, but it's abundantly clear to me that Malt doesn't deserve A drop. Sure, it's kind of slow, weak to ice shard, And not as strong as competition Mega Charizard X, but it still has hilariously good defensive typing and some solid power and bulk. Furthermore, it has a niche over all of it's competition, being the only fairy-type DD sweeper as well as bulky variants being a solid check to threats like Mlop, Megazard X, Serperior, Dragonite, Mega Manectric and a million other things that rely on Fighting, Dark, Grass, electric and Dragon type attacks to do significant damage. Offensive variants can shear through offensive teams lacking an ice shard user or scarfer, being able to destroy offense staples like garchomp, Mlop (provided Malt is jolly) and keldeo, as well as anything without a very solid amount of physical bulk. Sets that use heal bell or refresh can be a wake up call to defensive teams unprepared for it as well. Mega Altaria dropping simply doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering its many redeeming qualities that make it a dominant force in the OU metagame.

Mega Alt isn't really a dominating force in the meta-game and having a niche doesn't necessarily justify the use of it if there are better options regarding the whole picture of the metagame. Most of its defensive utility stems from having a lot of perfect conditions for it. This isn't really an argument for 4mss but it does find itself strapped for moveslots that it needs to function against a lot of the major archetypes. Mega Altaria was a much more dominant force in the Landorus meta where teams were less prepared for it than they were. Stall will never have to really worry about Mega Altaria considering they have Spdef Talonflame, M-Venusaur, Clefable, Skarmory, Jirachi and a combination of these to cover whatever set it has. Offensive sets going through offensive teams is a pretty big stretch in regards to the nature of what a usual offensive team actually looks like. They have tools such as Scarf Jirachi, Taunt, wall-breakers, Klefki, sand offense and all of this takes into account that you sort of have to give Altaria a free turn for it to actually get the ball rolling. This is easier said than done when most matches it's spending its time roosting off SR damage, Scald burns from Keldeo, Roosting off the damage to save it from potential 2hkos, etc.

A lot of the stuff in A right now are more useful just for the fact they apply more pressure to a number of teams such as Kyurem-B and M-Gardevoir. While they may not perform the same functions all the time, it is funny how M-Altarias usage has practically plummeted over other choices where these assumptions you have about clearly don't represent what it normally has to contend with and what players prefer to be using. A drop to A isn't really sudden and I think is justified now.

 

[Heatmor]

i dont play ou but can i ask what r gatrs niches over gyrados someone send me a bulleted list of them and u guys can delete this post if u want.

Well, Feraligatr hits harder than Gyarados, with Sheer Force + Life Orb. Gyarados can run more defensive sets and is more versatile.

Nevertheless, you shouldn't be posting this kind of comment in this thread.

Since we're talking about Torn-T, I'd like to nom Rhyperior to B-. Especially if Torn goes to S rank for some reason (though I still don't agree because hurrimiss).

The increase in popularity of Torn-T is good news for Rhy, as it doesn't really care about anything (bar losing its leftovers i guess) Torn-T throws at it and can set up rocks on it fairly easily, or Dragon Tail it away, or go for the kill with good prediction. Its also strong enough to 2HKO most Pokemon on offense, even Manaphy after rocks, considering it runs an Adamant nature. Much like before, it's still good at dismantling bird/electric spam and checking Zard X, Bisharp, Weavile, Scarf Hoopa-U/Tyranitar and Togekiss.

I'd also like to note that Rhyperior can run a fun Choice Band set, which is very difficult to play around, especially for balanced teams as very few Pokemon avoid the 2HKO:

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 190-225 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 190-225 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (yes even hippo can fall...)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 213-252 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 229-270 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This means that unlike other bulky Choice Band users such as Tyranitar, Scizor or Azumarill, Rhyperior doesn't always need to force prediction games against the premier physical walls of OU, since it can just spam Earthquake and let loose because it hits so damn hard.

Of course, there are times when Rhyperior will have to use coverage moves...

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 296-352 (77.4 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 366-432 (100.8 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 290-342 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

...but outside of Lando-T, those cases aren't very common. In a nutshell, Rhyperior can typically spam its STAB EdgeQuake with little impunity. This means Rhyperior can combat walls decently as they switch in expecting the tank set, only to get 2HKOed by a STAB.

Sooooo yeah, Rhyperior is becoming better in this meta, and the rankings should reflect that. B-

Edit: people want Mega Alt to drop? Remember this thing still has one of the best defensive typings in the game, and while shit like Weavile and Mega Manectric are everywhere nowadays, Jolly DD variants can still beat them even if it means tanking an Ice Shard to the face... not to mention its still pretty damn versatile, with crap like special sets to beat MegaBro and Hippo, the incredibly annoying DDD (especially if it has Cotton Guard) or a status remover... I personally think you shouldn't run Fire Blast on DD sets though, as stuff like Ferro/Skarmory are honestly really easy to lure with Alt's partners, and Alt should just stick to good ol' Roost. Just my 2 cents though.

I'm going to have to disagree. Rhyperior, while hits as hard as a truck and is physically bulky, is slow, and has atrocious defensive typing that leaves it dying to many special hits, even with Solid Rock taken into account. Those calcs you posted are kinda worthless, this being Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Garchomp will all find ways of either crippling, phazing or downright destroying Rhyperior. Rhyperior has no reliable recovery, and hates status. There are much better macho hard-hitters, like Garchomp, Tyranitar, Mega Metagross, and Mega Charizard X that are more competitively relevant. C Rank is good, C+ at the very best.

 

[Srn]

Welp the torn-t to S discussion has been wrung pretty dry so I guess i'll bring something up of my own:

Kyu-b to A+
Pretty much one of the most consistent wallbreakers here, and its not one-dimensional either. Right now, the meta is pretty favorable towards bulky grounds/waters and kyu-b takes advantage of that very well with just its standard special attacking set. However, Hp fire and iron head are awesome lures to ferro/zor and clef, and the only big thing you miss out on is tran without epower imo. It pairs well with several megas due to its ability to take advantage of bulky grounds/waters and pressure steels/clef, such as mega beedril, mega ttar, and mega gyarados; somewhat rare but very relevant threats. If you really want breaking power CB kyu-b is a good choice too, it blows away cocky chanseys with its simply breathtaking outrage and is otherwise just really fucking powerful. Scarf outrage is pretty powerful itself and revenge kills pretty well; late-game cleaning with outrage is possible too.

The fun doesn't end there for kyu-b. unlike many other wallbreakers, and much like manaphy, kyu-b actually provides some solid defensive qualities to a team. It's a great check to manaphy, starmie, serp, mvenu, rotom-w, and electrics like megaman and raikou, and it has enough physical bulk to switch into one or two moves from lando-t as well. This goes for pretty much 70% of the meta, but its checks, such as ferro, chansey, mew, and scizor, hate hazards which are pretty relevant rn.

Those gross garchomp/manaphy/torn-t/skarm/hippo/etc balance cores are really just blown back by kyu-b its great.

But it has lots of flaws, like a rocks weakness, somewhat awkward typing, and subpar speed. Its stats are pretty badly distributed and its very easy to revenge kill, and choiced sets are very prediction reliant (i mean if its not specs scald from keldeo, choiced = prediction but you know)

All in all it's a very relevant and defining threat, pretty anti-meta, and has both offensive and defensive capabilities. It has perks over top tier wallbreakers like immediate power (manaphy) and defensive uses (hoopa-u), and between all its sets it doesn't really have a counter. Kyu-b to A+

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Welp the torn-t to S discussion has been wrung pretty dry so I guess i'll bring something up of my own:

Kyu-b to A+
Pretty much one of the most consistent wallbreakers here, and its not one-dimensional either. Right now, the meta is pretty favorable towards bulky grounds/waters and kyu-b takes advantage of that very well with just its standard special attacking set. However, Hp fire and iron head are awesome lures to ferro/zor and clef, and the only big thing you miss out on is tran without epower imo. It pairs well with several megas due to its ability to take advantage of bulky grounds/waters and pressure steels/clef, such as mega beedril, mega ttar, and mega gyarados; somewhat rare but very relevant threats. If you really want breaking power CB kyu-b is a good choice too, it blows away cocky chanseys with its simply breathtaking outrage and is otherwise just really fucking powerful. Scarf outrage is pretty powerful itself and revenge kills pretty well; late-game cleaning with outrage is possible too.

The fun doesn't end there for kyu-b. unlike many other wallbreakers, and much like manaphy, kyu-b actually provides some solid defensive qualities to a team. It's a great check to manaphy, starmie, serp, mvenu, rotom-w, and electrics like megaman and raikou, and it has enough physical bulk to switch into one or two moves from lando-t as well. This goes for pretty much 70% of the meta, but its checks, such as ferro, chansey, mew, and scizor, hate hazards which are pretty relevant rn.

Those gross garchomp/manaphy/torn-t/skarm/hippo/etc balance cores are really just blown back by kyu-b its great.

But it has lots of flaws, like a rocks weakness, somewhat awkward typing, and subpar speed. Its stats are pretty badly distributed and its very easy to revenge kill, and choiced sets are very prediction reliant (i mean if its not specs scald from keldeo, choiced = prediction but you know)

All in all it's a very relevant and defining threat, pretty anti-meta, and has both offensive and defensive capabilities. It has perks over top tier wallbreakers like immediate power (manaphy) and defensive uses (hoopa-u), and between all its sets it doesn't really have a counter. Kyu-b to A+

I brought this up and was shot down before I could get another word in. I'm just here to add that a million and one teams rely wholly on Clefable to wall this monster, which can be a grave mistake when dealing with a pokemon with this much firepower. Between the somewhat-trendy CB set and the standard LO, there's nothing that can safely wall this thing. The defensive abilities mentioned in the above post cannot be understated- Its a solid check to electric types like mega manectric, which as we know is an absolute pain to deal with for offense and hyper offense. Yes, it gets some weaknesses, but so do manaphy and hoopa-u and every single other wallbreaker, although there's might not be as crippling. And while the above post says that kyurem-B has suboptimal speed, it's actually pretty good for a non-mega wallbreaker, which is another perk of kyu-B- it doesn't take up the mega slot, which allows it to fit more easily on HO builds that would rather use the mega slot for an anti-offense mon like Mega Alakazam, Mlop, or Mega Manectric. It can bait in stuff like ferro and sciz with HP fire, and Clefable with Iron head. It can essentially score a KO every game with the aforementioned bulk, something that fellow wallbreaker hoopa-u can sometimes fail to do. I think that Kyurem-B is a threat that most fatter teams can struggle against despite having "counters" like Chansey and Clefable.

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

for a while i used Kyurem-B a lot and i agree completely it is better. In all honesty i do think it deserves A+ the fact it allows immediate power but still has defense use with that weird typing and big stats is amazing in this current meta. Balance teams have nightmares of this monster because its coverage and power hits everything and it dismantles these passive builds pretty easily. Stall can have problems with this pokemon too. Its Physical set can take on Chansey builds and trying to pivot around and guess this pokemon's set can be dangerous. its Scarf set is good vs Offense and that coverage gives Offense problems along with that speed. its Life orb set even gives Offense problems when it can get a free switch which is not impossible with the bulk and typing. And Roost allows it to survive and do more work. i personally think it should be A+ . but that's just my opinion.

 

[Heatmor]

I am going to bandwagon the Kyurem-Black thing- I believe that it should be A+ Rank. Not only is it a terrifying wallbreaker capable of defeating walls and taking down dangerous threats, what's better is that it is extremely bulky for an offensive Pokemon, if not the most bulky offensive Pokemon altogether. 125/100/90 bulk almost ensures that it will not die to one hit, and it is versatile, too, running Choice Scarf, Sub, Mixed, and even AV very well. I think that the AV Kyurem-Black is underrated, as it allows it to check several threats in OU, while also maintaining power. Late game cleaning is its specialty, mixed wallbreaking is what it does, and that is why Kyurem-Black has the recovery, the stats, and the power to be deserving of A+ Rank.

 

[DennisEG]

Rotom-W should be A rank as bludz's said a coupla pages ago. One of the best pivot out there if not the best, able to switch ins into the top mons right now and spread will-o-wisp everywhere. Talon, Pinsir, Skarm, Bulky Chomp, Tornadus-t, SD Scizor, Lando-T and Heatran; all of this mons can be checked by Rotom-W without some crazy set like Solar Beam Tran. Have access to Pain Split which isn't the most reliable recovery move but helps a lot specially when the HP stat isn't that good, can fit on different playstyle due to its typing, movepool and ability and can complete Volt-turn cores very easily. So yeah a versatil mon which deserves A rank imo.

 

[Groovy groudon]

I don't think kyub really deserves A+ rank, idk how to lay this out so ill just do pros, cons and a summary
Pros

• capable of running many sets like sub, av, scarf, and life orb
• extremely good against balance
• one of the few electric checks offence can run
• capable of luring its checks ie hp fire and iron head
• good bulk and reliable recovery

Cons

• So much of the meta gets a super effective hit on it with stabs or common coverage just from s and a+ you have charizard x, clefable, altaria, alakazam, azumarill, bisharp, diancie, excadrill, ferrothorn, garchomp, heatran, hoopa, keldeo, landorus, lopuny, latios, metagross, scizor, thundurus, tornadus and weavile. This means that kybes cant make good use of his bulk.
• bad matchup against offence if not scarf
• stealth rock weakness
• doesn't block volt switch, this is big especially if the opponent has rocks up as stuff like manectric can click volt switch on the switch in and kyub losing 40% from from volt switch plus rocks and the opponent gaining momentum
• 4mms ice beam and fusion bolt are basically mandatory.The other two slots are a toss up between hp fire, earth power, iron head and roost. This is made worse if you rely on kyub to check electrics because that makes roost near madatory.
• Items, if you run life orb kyub is whittled down so quickly, but if you run any other item you aren't quite powerful enough to break through defensive cores.

Kyub is a good mon but has too many flaws to be A+

Agree that torn is too inconsistant to be S

Also i feel the a rank are too bloated right now with 90% of ou in them and if a beginner see the rankings they would have no idea how the 20 pokemon in a subrank compare to each other