Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

**A -> S

Might seem like a big jump in viability, but Rotom is 100% worthy of S Rank in this meta imo. The Hex set is probably the best balance breaker in the tier, as it has such an easy time getting around its own checks and counters. On most Balance teams these are mons like Lanturn and Steelix, which are easily beaten by the Hex set. Rotom is one of the scarriest and under prepared mons to face in the current meta, and this is shown by a huge amount of recent tour matches, the most recent one I can remember being Shaneghoul vs Realistic Waters for NUL [Game 1, 2, 3].

In the games, Rotom makes an appearance in all of them, and is always able to be a threat to the opposing team. In Game 1, Shaneghoul is the one who brings it and right from the start its easy to tell that it would put in a lot of work against Water's team. Since his electric resist is Steelix, it does not want to come in on a Wisp as it is then 2HKOd by Hex and can't even damage it back as Rotom resists both of Steelix's STABs. In the game Shane uses it to wear down the Articuno, which would have lead to Sceptile putting in more work late game but instead he swept with Barbaracle. In Game 2 both players bring Rotom, and right from the start its obvious how threatening they are to each other. However Waters does have a Pyroar which is one of the few checks to Rotom as it isn't affected by Wisp or Hex, but it still is worn down very easily by rocks + volt switch damage. One Shane's side, his best way to handle the opposing Rotom is switching into Sceptile, which is only really a one time switch in since Burn Damage + Hex kill it after rocks. Water's ends up using his Bulkier Rotom set with Pain Split to take care of the Garbodor, Samurott, and Scyther leading to a late game Specs Sceptile sweep. Even with his bad match up, Shane is able to use his Rotom to take care of a threat to his team in Piloswine. In Game Three, Shane once again brings a Rotom, and it puts in large amounts of work for his team. While there is a Pyroar, he is still able to beat the opposing Steelix, threaten out Vileplume multiple times even at low health, and late game check the Sawk showing its worth as a Balance breaker.

In terms of checks / counters to Rotom, there are really only two hard counters in the tier: Mega Audino and Camerupt. Out of these, only Mega Audino is viable enough to be considered a common mon in the metagame, and even then it can't just be thrown onto teams as its a very big momentum sap for playstyles like offense and some forms of balance. Other checks to the Hex set are mons like Pyroar, Magmortar, Skuntank, and Shiftry. None of which have reliable recovery and can't switch in multiple times due to Wisp buring up the Lum Berry the first time around on Skuntank / Shiftry. Also while Pyroar / Magmortar aren't affected by Wisp, options in the 4th slot are there to hit them. A new move I've started running is Discharge, as it gives Rotom a reliable Electric STAB while also giving it another way to Status the opponent. It also allows it to beat things like Sceptile that try to switch in on Hex / Volt Switch, only to take a Discharge.

There are also multiple viable Rotom sets that contribute to its viablity and threat level in NU. These are: Hex + Spel Tag, Defensive, Scarf, and Sub. Defensive is able to handle most common Normals / Flyings / and Steel Types in the tier due to its Typing and Bulk once invested. Scarf is a threat to a lot of teams that lack Electric resists, as it has a very easy job to just wear down the opposing team with continued attacks and the ability to cripple defensive mons with Trick. The last set is probably something a lot less people know about, and its a set I've started to use and I'm probably one of the few that use it. The set is Hex / Substitute / Will-o-wisp / Discharge with Max Speed and either Max HP or Attack. Rotom is able to set up Subs on things like Steelix, Lanturn, Weezing, Scyther, and other threatening Physical and Special attackers. From there it is able to basically annoy and rack up damage very quickly against the opposing team.

Rotom also provides a key role on offensive teams as an Anti-Hazard Removal mon. Due to its Typing it can reliably switch into Rapid Spinners due to its Normal Immunity, and threaten common spinners like Hitmonchan and Kabutops with Will-o-wisp, making sure they can't spin during the match. It also is able to beat common Defoggers like Mantine and Pelipper, due to its threatening Electric STAB. Even though it can't prevent them from defogging, it punishes the opponenet for not switching out to something that can handle Rotom, or going for Scald to get the burn. This could mean Rotom can get a free Wisp off, or just Volt Switch to grab momentum.

Overall I do believe Rotom is one of the most threatening and under prepared mons in the meta, and its ranking should reflect this, which is why I am suggesting to move it up to S right away instead of waiting a week or two for it to be put in A+.
I think what holds rotom back from S is its passive nature against most of the common threats, since it needs wisp + hex to break, it solely relies on this set and it involves the clicking of two moves. I agree that rotom is extremely underprepared for (shane didn't have any answers in his team 3 and waters didn't really on his team 1) but that doesn't really come down to the mon being S rank material, more lackluster building from both players in my honest opinion. (not taking anything away from the players, the series was very good to watch:3) But just because a mon is under-prepared for right now, what with the sceptile hype and steelix hype does it mean that it got any better. I believe that yes, rotom + rotom fan did get better from the drop of steelix, allowing it to have more switches in to spread status and cause damage to teams, but it's still got some problems.
Firstly its weak damage output, it doesn't exactly break things straight away, which means that it takes time + playing it extremely well to break down its checks, this is something completely different to sceptile who can come in, force a switch and leaf storm everything in its path.
Secondly, i'd like to say it has a hard time spamming its stabs, there's always a prediction involved with every team that's around. Having a ground type is a staple on every team, whilst dark types + normal types that may carry pursuit (liepard, tauros, skuntank) or even outspeed and just ohko come in on the stabs involved. I'd agree by saying that will-o is a very spammable move, but its attacking moves hold it back from S for me since it cannot be used very easily, it takes a large amount of skill involved to get it right.

in conclusion because I can sometimes get a bit muddled with my points, rotom needs wisp + hex to break shit, its stabs are weak and that's what holds it back from being a splashable mon, stabs aren't spammable + can be pursuit trapped by some of the most common physical attackers in the tier. However I would most definitely agree on a rise to A+, it's still a very, very good mon right now and I agree with a rise.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Okay so I have another nom

Klinklang for B-
Klinklang just isn't in a very good spot in the current metagame right now. Not only has the arrival of Steelix heavily hurt it's chances to sweep, other mons that are good right now, like Rotom-N and Hariyama, also hurts it. Klinkang's only coverage is Gear Grind, Return, and Wild Charge, (unless u count Hidden Powers but it doesn't hit anything that hard) so it gets walled by a lot of stuff right now, as mons like Steelix and Rotom are on almost every team due to their viability and splashability, so almost every team are gonna have a good answer to Klinklang. Klinklang still has some use, as it's still a good sweeper once these threats are eliminated, but right now it requires so much support in order to work that I think it's more on par with the B- mons than B mons.
 
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Luck O' the Irish

banned in dc
is a Tiering Contributor
pizzaguy88 I'll respond, scyther I can see why you would want to drop with lix walling it to hell and back but I still think it's as good as it was in the past meta. It doesn't lose much by clicking uturn since it's a powerful stab move and it gives a lot of free turns to potent balance breakers such as hex rotom and magmortar thanks to bringing in steelix, other ground types, and bulky poisons. Bulky sd still checks a bunch of shit, and is one of the best checks to special sceptile in tier and malamar, something people tend to forget about. From my experience using it, a lot of teams throw in lix and assume they're set against scyther but thanks to uturn all of the lix vs hex rotom/offensive fire type matchups that you get from it can make it hard to keep it until the end. I'd link you the game if I weren't on mobile, but look up the series I had vs can-eh-dian and watch g1. His steelix goes down really soon in the game and from there winning wasn't too hard since the rest of his team was scyther food. All in all scyther still puts in a lot of work as long as you can keep rocks off the field. I don't think scythers viability has changed much.

On the other hand I can't see how torterra ahead gotten better, if anything it seems like it should drop. Its bulky rocks set faces a ton of competition from steelix since steelix checks more mons. A large problem is that torterra also loses to most of lix's checks, especially weezing, and its advantage against bulky waters doesn't matter as much now since more shit like lanturn is carrying ice beam to deal with sceptile. Speaking of which, tort is set up fodder for sd sceptile which is a really potent sweeper/cleaner rn.
Not to say that torterra is bad id just rather use other ground types most of the time.

On the other hand, I don't mean to be rude but AV torterra seems like an awful set. You give up stealth rock and synthesis, the latter of which is one of torterras main niches, and any sweeping and wallbreaking potential it has in order to tank a bunch of random ass fire attacks which kill you with a little bit of prior damage anyway. Most other special attackers don't care anyway since a lot of them, such as ghost types, carry wisp and water types carry scald or ice beam. If I really wanted torterra to tank some special attacks it normally wouldn't I'd rather just put like occa berry on standard tort. Or y'know, just team build properly around it and give it teammates that can take fire attacks. AV does nothing but limit torterras potential. And sorry, but AV doesn't make torterra any less helpless vs scyther since they tend to only use physical attacks
 

pizzaguy88

Banned deucer.
pizzaguy88 I'll respond, scyther I can see why you would want to drop with lix walling it to hell and back but I still think it's as good as it was in the past meta. It doesn't lose much by clicking uturn since it's a powerful stab move and it gives a lot of free turns to potent balance breakers such as hex rotom and magmortar thanks to bringing in steelix, other ground types, and bulky poisons. Bulky sd still checks a bunch of shit, and is one of the best checks to special sceptile in tier and malamar, something people tend to forget about. From my experience using it, a lot of teams throw in lix and assume they're set against scyther but thanks to uturn all of the lix vs hex rotom/offensive fire type matchups that you get from it can make it hard to keep it until the end. I'd link you the game if I weren't on mobile, but look up the series I had vs can-eh-dian and watch g1. His steelix goes down really soon in the game and from there winning wasn't too hard since the rest of his team was scyther food. All in all scyther still puts in a lot of work as long as you can keep rocks off the field. I don't think scythers viability has changed much.

On the other hand I can't see how torterra ahead gotten better, if anything it seems like it should drop. Its bulky rocks set faces a ton of competition from steelix since steelix checks more mons. A large problem is that torterra also loses to most of lix's checks, especially weezing, and its advantage against bulky waters doesn't matter as much now since more shit like lanturn is carrying ice beam to deal with sceptile. Speaking of which, tort is set up fodder for sd sceptile which is a really potent sweeper/cleaner rn.
Not to say that torterra is bad id just rather use other ground types most of the time.

On the other hand, I don't mean to be rude but AV torterra seems like an awful set. You give up stealth rock and synthesis, the latter of which is one of torterras main niches, and any sweeping and wallbreaking potential it has in order to tank a bunch of random ass fire attacks which kill you with a little bit of prior damage anyway. Most other special attackers don't care anyway since a lot of them, such as ghost types, carry wisp and water types carry scald or ice beam. If I really wanted torterra to tank some special attacks it normally wouldn't I'd rather just put like occa berry on standard tort. Or y'know, just team build properly around it and give it teammates that can take fire attacks. AV does nothing but limit torterras potential. And sorry, but AV doesn't make torterra any less helpless vs scyther since they tend to only use physical attacks
How is torterra settup fodder for sd sceptile i av is still vialble imo but i never said it was the best set. Also torterra can run the choice bamd set which lots of offensive mons cant safely into. I do agree steelix is a better entry hazarrd setter but its better special defence an resitance to ground is good. Also rock polish is also good or u can do swords dance, torterra fits the a rank more than b rank imo
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Thoughts on our smashers after drops.

Barbaracle B > B+
Carracosta B > B-

These two noms basically go hand in hand. With king sceptile now running the streets, it's extremely important to be able to outspeed arguably NU's greatest threat after a shell smash. These two often compete with each other for a team slot, but with the prevalence of scept now in the tier, barb more often than not is the superior choice. While scept comfortable eats up costa's +2 jet, barb's +2 return is an easy OHKO.
Barbaracle may seem to be in a better position in the meta, but I firmly believe Carracosta is still not bad enough to drop to B-; it's still a plenty respectable threat. What irks me are most of your arguments, which don't make much sense:
Steelix, another hugely influential drop, is another mon which favors barb over costa. Some calcs for reference:

+2 252 Atk Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 248-294 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 326-386 (92 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Is this White Herb Carracosta? Because Life Orb Carracosta gives you this:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 328-385 (92.6 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Pretty much the same odds as Barbaracle. If you want to argue putting Life Orb on Barbaracle will net better odds of OHKOing Steelix, well you can't because of Sturdy (if you apply Stealth Rock then Costa's odds rise as well, except even better cos Costa has better accuracy), plus putting Life Orb on Barbaracle is not advised since LO recoil combined with the Defense drops render Barbaracle much more susceptible to priority, while Costa suffers less from this problem due to its own priority in Aqua Jet.
252+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 204-243 (70.3 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 168-199 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, in a 1v1 situation, costa loses to steelix while barb more often than not will come out on top. Whether costa runs herb or shuca, it will die to two earthquakes as steelix can live +2 waterfall comfortably, while barb can take a hit with shuca, and OHKO back.
Um...what's this? When did Mega Steelix come into the picture? I don't even know how you came up with MLix when you started off with regular Steelix in your aforementioned calcs, unless you were deliberately trying to undermine Carracosta. Here's your calcs:

136+ Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 141-168 (48.6 - 57.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 112-132 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 159-189 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I took the liberty of listing the more standard Steelix spread at the top for you, but honestly these calcs do not mean much of anything if Steelix's Sturdy is broken, because +2 Carracosta can just blast through Steelix without having to take a hit at all.
Yes, costa can run a mixed/special set, but then samurott and lanturn are both able to stop your sweep, and fully physical is arguably the most common set.
I believe you're referring to the outdated specially offensive Shell Smash set, but mixed Costa does run Stone Edge which utterly crushes those two after +2 LO, even with just minimal investment.

Some other reasons why I think barb in general is a great mon and deserves a rise on it's own anyways:
  • Barb has a range of cool coverage options which let it beat its various checks. EQ to avoid aftermath and destroy lanturn, grass knot to bop quag, cross chop for seed, etc.
  • Barb is fast enough to run a fun lure scarf set to get surprise KOs on things that try to stop you from setting up, and even has access to switcheroo to cripple walls that try to switch in
  • Barb in comparison to costa, doesn't have to rely on stone edge hitting as +2 return with the tough claws boost is just as strong as neutral stone edge
  • Though uncommon, Barb has various support options as well (sash endeavor rocks, taunt, switcheroo as previously mentioned)
Anyhow, hope this post is coherent enough to understand.
- Carracosta also has a wide pool of coverage options, and a major strength Costa has over Barb is its perfectly usable Special Attack to fuel the effectiveness of some of these coverage moves, like Hydro Pump and Ice Beam to pop the (numerous) physically bulky Pokemon in the tier that Barbaracle cannot. Regardless, Costa can already evade Aftermath with Stone Edge or Hydro Pump, Hydro Pump can still do major damage to Quagsire, and it can Superpower Ferroseed (Superpower is more for the mixed set).
- Eh Scarf is an option Barbaracle can consider but hardly worth talking about when trying to nominate it for a rise in Rank, especially when you realize how lackluster it is as an immediate attacker once it loses its surprise value. Sets like Choice Band Switcheroo Archeops or Choice Scarf Magmortar aren't really the kind that would help promote a rise. Barbaracle's SR Endeavor set has a bit more of a niche but is still on pretty shaky ground as well.
- It is Tough Claws Razor Shell (hits 100 BP pre-STAB) that has the same power as Stone Edge; Return still falls short albeit at a respectable 136 BP.

Costa's physical Smash set has taken a hit in this meta, but it can adapt with its mixed set which is excellent at breaking bulky cores, especially unsuspecting ones, so Costa doesn't warrant a drop. Neutral on Barbaracle's position though.
 
I think that just the simple speed tier that carra sits in means the smash set took too much of a beating, considering if i wanted priority, i'd still use samurott as the setup sweeper and barb outspeeds whilst having similar identical bulk. I mean sure, we can sit here and theory mon about it, but the simple fact is that carracosta took a hit from every aspect from steelix + sceptile joining the tier.
A) as a normal resist, plus things like tauros + archeops have fallen out of favour for things like sceptile, whilst rotom leads the tier. Steelix gives it a lot of trouble for competition.
B) with the speed tier of sceptile being such a massive problem for the smash set, there is little reason to run it over barb, being that they were extremely similar before, but now it just leaves no reason to run costa over barb but for priority.
Which leaves the question of why should it stay highly ranked if its main roles are outclassed by two of the main threats on almost every team in the tier. Why would you choose to use carracosta? I understand you can make comparisons to barbaracle in the roles they play, but i'm simply suggesting that the role that carracosta offers in a team builder is not as great as many of the other options available. Hence I support a drop tbh.
 
Barbaracle may seem to be in a better position in the meta, but I firmly believe Carracosta is still not bad enough to drop to B-; it's still a plenty respectable threat. What irks me are most of your arguments, which don't make much sense:

Is this White Herb Carracosta? Because Life Orb Carracosta gives you this:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 328-385 (92.6 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Pretty much the same odds as Barbaracle. If you want to argue putting Life Orb on Barbaracle will net better odds of OHKOing Steelix, well you can't because of Sturdy (if you apply Stealth Rock then Costa's odds rise as well, except even better cos Costa has better accuracy), plus putting Life Orb on Barbaracle is not advised since LO recoil combined with the Defense drops render Barbaracle much more susceptible to priority, while Costa suffers less from this problem due to its own priority in Aqua Jet.

Um...what's this? When did Mega Steelix come into the picture? I don't even know how you came up with MLix when you started off with regular Steelix in your aforementioned calcs, unless you were deliberately trying to undermine Carracosta. Here's your calcs:

136+ Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 141-168 (48.6 - 57.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 112-132 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 159-189 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I took the liberty of listing the more standard Steelix spread at the top for you, but honestly these calcs do not mean much of anything if Steelix's Sturdy is broken, because +2 Carracosta can just blast through Steelix without having to take a hit at all.
I believe you're referring to the outdated specially offensive Shell Smash set, but mixed Costa does run Stone Edge which utterly crushes those two after +2 LO, even with just minimal investment.


- Carracosta also has a wide pool of coverage options, and a major strength Costa has over Barb is its perfectly usable Special Attack to fuel the effectiveness of some of these coverage moves, like Hydro Pump and Ice Beam to pop the (numerous) physically bulky Pokemon in the tier that Barbaracle cannot. Regardless, Costa can already evade Aftermath with Stone Edge or Hydro Pump, Hydro Pump can still do major damage to Quagsire, and it can Superpower Ferroseed (Superpower is more for the mixed set).
- Eh Scarf is an option Barbaracle can consider but hardly worth talking about when trying to nominate it for a rise in Rank, especially when you realize how lackluster it is as an immediate attacker once it loses its surprise value. Sets like Choice Band Switcheroo Archeops or Choice Scarf Magmortar aren't really the kind that would help promote a rise. Barbaracle's SR Endeavor set has a bit more of a niche but is still on pretty shaky ground as well.
- It is Tough Claws Razor Shell (hits 100 BP pre-STAB) that has the same power as Stone Edge; Return still falls short albeit at a respectable 136 BP.

Costa's physical Smash set has taken a hit in this meta, but it can adapt with its mixed set which is excellent at breaking bulky cores, especially unsuspecting ones, so Costa doesn't warrant a drop. Neutral on Barbaracle's position though.
What irks me are most of your arguments, which don't make much sense:
I don't know understand how any of my arguments except the steelix one don't make sense.
Okay yes I goofed with the overall thought process/calcs. The point I was try to make is, assuming costa isn't orb, which often times it's not, steelix can come in and stomach a hit and deal with costa.

Regardless, as Teddeh said, the speed tier carra sits in is enough to warrant a drop. Sceptile's presence in the tier is such a huge hindrance to costa's viability.

- Carracosta also has a wide pool of coverage options, and a major strength Costa has over Barb is its perfectly usable Special Attack to fuel the effectiveness of some of these coverage moves, like Hydro Pump and Ice Beam to pop the (numerous) physically bulky Pokemon in the tier that Barbaracle cannot. Regardless, Costa can already evade Aftermath with Stone Edge or Hydro Pump, Hydro Pump can still do major damage to Quagsire, and it can Superpower Ferroseed (Superpower is more for the mixed set).
- Eh Scarf is an option Barbaracle can consider but hardly worth talking about when trying to nominate it for a rise in Rank, especially when you realize how lackluster it is as an immediate attacker once it loses its surprise value. Sets like Choice Band Switcheroo Archeops or Choice Scarf Magmortar aren't really the kind that would help promote a rise. Barbaracle's SR Endeavor set has a bit more of a niche but is still on pretty shaky ground as well.
- It is Tough Claws Razor Shell (hits 100 BP pre-STAB) that has the same power as Stone Edge; Return still falls short albeit at a respectable 136 BP.
I'm simply laying out all the options here. I'd say in general, the more versatile a mon is, the more its viability increases.

"Stone Edge hits Grass-types and some Water-types harder than Barbaracle's other main attacks, but it is generally not worth the moveslot, as Return is almost always more reliable thanks to its perfect accuracy and the fact that it is just as strong as a STAB Stone Edge."

Simply quoting the barb analysis, must be a blip in the write-up then.
 

Disjunction

Everything I waste gets recycled
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Got a fresh one for you dudes
Code:
Drops:
Lilligant A+ > A
Archeops A+ > A
Jumpluff B > C+
Quagsire B > B-
Zangoose B > B-
Regirock B- > C
Linoone B- > C+
Pawniard C+ > C
Simisage D > E
Stunfisk D > E
Audino D > E
Ditto E > Unranked

Rises:
Rotom A > A+
Rotom-S B+ > A-
Mismagius B > B+
Barbaracle B > B+
Mr. Mime C+ > B-
Mantine C > C+
Muk C- > C
Clefairy C- > C+
Sliggoo C- > C+
Ninjask C- > C
Vigoroth Unranked > D
There were a couple of nominations that were brought up while we were working on this update, so please feel free to continue discussion on the following:
  • B+ > A-
  • B > B-
  • A+ > S
  • B > B-
  • B- > B
I'm also implementing a new rule: You cannot bring up a nomination that didn't go through until after the next update. Nobody was annoying or bad about this, but I seem to always see the same nominations come through after every update. If your nomination didn't go through, it isn't because we missed it or forgot about it, it's because we felt it wasn't the right move. I'd like mons to rise/drop because they deserve to be, not because a handful of people kept bringing it up until we let it happen.

With that being said, the following nominations are barred from discussion until the next update (unless I, or another council member, says otherwise):
  • S > A+
  • A > A+
  • A > A+
  • B > B+
If you have any questions, feel free to ask them by sending me a vm :)
 
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torterra is fine as it is. faces steep competition with other bulky ground rockers, particularly steelix and rhydon, and isnt nearly as splashable or even as good as the aforementioned grounds due to its typing. realistically, piloswine even has a more relevant defensive niche in being a p reliable ice check. torterra, if anything, should go down, due to the severe dropoff in the usage bulky waters that check the fire-types that roast torterra. torterra just faces severe competition with other bulky grounds and isnt nearly as splashable in them, is hindered by the increased presence of fire-types. keep torterra where it is (if u dont just drop it)

klinklang should drop. honestly i think b- is really generous for a mon youll never realistically use on a serious team, so c+ seems more like a better fit. the shift gear set that once made is practically invalidated by the overwhelming presence of steelix and rotom, and i wouldnt really use any set other than the lure, but is it really enough to keep it in b? keep in mind klink has a base 70 special attack with no move over 80 base power, relying on super effective coverage to do damage, but even then it still struggles to get past walls like lanturn just bc of how weak it is. klinklang isnt good, and sure as hell worse than some actually usable mons in b-, like quagsire or camerupt; c+ seems like a good placement

im on mobile, sorry if this is sloppy, just wanted to put my thoughts out there.

also rotom is a top 3 mon in the tier and its placement should reflect that. move it to s tbh.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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This doesn't deserve to rise; it's less splashable than ever due to its niches becoming weaker. I don't know what Tank Torterra even exclusively walls nowadays, its dual STABs which are inferior to Rhydon's have always prevented it from performing DualDance sets well, and the prevalence of mons like Weezing and Gourgeist-Super just hurt it from an attacking perspective. pizzaguy88, the guy who made this nom also suggested some weird AV Torterra set that, from what I see from his calcs, functions like a worse Occa Berry Tank Torterra that can't use Synthesis so I don't even know what that was about :/. Really, this is more liable to move down than move up.
Costa got hurt a lot, though I still don't consider it bad enough to drop to B- (it was like A- prior to the shift, plus it's more threatening / consistent than most of the mons in B-). Physical Costa took a massive hit and tank Costa now faces serious competition, so Costa's best set atm is its mixed Shell Smash set whose wallbreaking ability is on par with, if not better than special Samurott's, but it does rely on bluffing the now less impactful physical set so yeah it's not looking too hot.
Literally the only things I can think of that can stop WispHex Rotom are Mega Audino and Camerupt. Aside from that, WispHex Rotom just puts in a ton of work and is easily one of the best momentum grabbers in the tier, thanks to its excellent typing (which makes up for its less than stellar defenses), decently fast Wisp, Volt Switch, and can bust open walls and Electric-immune mons with boosted Hex which boasts surprising power. Sure it doesn't hit very hard off the bat, but between the fast Volt Switch and Will-O-Wisp, even that is mitigated due to how easily Rotom can minimize damage to itself before it really starts wearing the opposition down. The sheer effectiveness of Rotom combined with its splashability makes it very worthy of S.

Yeah we know what the deal with Klinklang already is: Steelix's return made its life hell again, and then the rise of mons like Rotom, Weezing, Pelipper, SuperGeist, etc. didn't really do it much favors.

I guess this could rise on the basis that most of the faster threatening attackers (Tauros, Archeops, Scyther, Guts Swellow, Floatzel) have substantially declined in usage, but really this sounds like better news for Pyroar if anything. Part of what caused people to shy away from Ninetales in the first place is its lackluster immediate power for a Fire-type (even Combusken is stronger off the bat), plus the other Fire-types can get plenty of corebreaking done without the help of boosts, diminishing the value of Nasty Plot. This translates into Flash Fire as well: sure Ninetales can punish Will-O-Wisp with Flash Fire boosted attacks, but the other Fire-types can already do the same with 'already powerful' attacks, and retain that power should they mispredict or switch out.

In any case, competition with Magmortar is still very fierce, and Magmortar still has an easier time checking special attackers thanks to Vital Spirit + the ability to wield Assault Vest. Tales should probably stay where it is.
 
Ninetales' immediate speed as well as not being walled by Hariyama (one of the most common Pokemon in this metagame now) are some of the main reasons to use it over Pyroar and Magmortar. Sure Magmorter can switch into Rotom's Will-O-Wisp, but the next turn Rotom can freely Volt Switch and widdle down Magmorter. Now you're probably thinking "use Pyroar it's got an even better speed tier than Ninetales", but as I stated earlier one of the most common Pokemon is Hariyama, and Ninetales punishes Hariyama with Psyshock. Even Combusken is forced to predict when it switches into Rotom's Will-O-Wisp. The Combusken user has to decide if it wants to protect or attack because the Rotom user could easily just hard switch and kill the Combusken's momentum as they protect.

Ninetales should rise
 

pizzaguy88

Banned deucer.
Torterra does deserve to rise up to a- maybe even a rank but that's a bit of a stretch. The choice band set can be hard to switch into with two great stabs. Torterras solid bulk also allows it to run a double dance set Turing it to a treating revenge killer and wallbreaker. Also it beats sceptile pretty easily without acrobatics and steelix ain't shit to it. I honestly don't care about the bulky rocks set but versatility and being unpredictable is why it should rise.
 

etern

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I really don't understand why Torterra out of all mons in the tier deserves a rise when the main niches it has have been severely diminished as the meta has changed. Every set that it can run is either outclassed or comes at a very high opportunity cost.

  • As previously stated by others, it has huge competition as a defensive rocker by Steelix, Rhydon and Piloswine.
  • The tank set primarily walled things such as Klinklang, Rhydon(Lacking Megahorn), Garbodor(which all the aforementioned rockers can also do) and Lanturn. However every single one of these mons have dipped in usage as of late, besides perhaps Garbodor which Steelix arguably handles much better due to a poison immunity.
  • Banded Torterra can easily be scouted around, as its dual stabs are not very spammable and can be revenged killed/ worn down immensely due to its plethora of weaknesses and low speed tier. Not to mention the fact that Ice types
  • Not going to talk about AV Torterra because i've never seen it, but it seems very gimmicky, and again loses out on recovery.
  • Finally, as Punch mentioned before, the double dance set is outclassed by Rhydon that gets stab on its EdgeQuake and is still put to a halt by things such as Gourgeist and Weezing which are becoming a lot more common.
Also in response to pizzaguy88, Acrobatics is pretty standard on Physical Scept, and regardless Tort loses to the most common set which is LO Mixed Scept.
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 338-400 (85.7 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 338-400 (102.1 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Anyways, sorry for the long winded post, but overall I definitely think Torterra should just stay where it is, if in fact it doesn't get moved down.

B > B- : Not too much to say on Costa that hasnt been said already. Its speed tier and Sceptile outspeeding it after a smash really hurt it, as well as other stealth rockers being a lot more splashable. I support this drop, but if it stays where it is I wouldn't be disappointed.

A+ > S: Rotom is ridiculous right now. The ability to check so many things, provide utility, be threatening AND provide momentum is just outstanding. Obviously the Wisp/Hex set is probably its best right now, but it has a lot of other viable sets that prevent it from being too predictable, and give it a lot of versatility. I support this rise for sure as the sheer utility it provides to a team makes it one of the most splashable mons in the metagame at the moment.

B > B- : Unfortunately Klinklang has arguably taken the biggest hit from the meta, with the rise in popularity of many of its biggest checks, the arrival of steelix, and the lack of midgame presence it provides due to the huge amount of support it needs. Throughout the last few weeks, not once have I ever thought to myself "hmm my team really needs a klinklang" because right now it has far too many negative points that make it worth even considering on a competitively viable team. This definitely needs to drop.

B- > B: Ninetales is really cool at the moment, being able to take on a huge threat in Hariyama, something most Fire Types in the tier cannot boast about. Coupling that with a nice speed tier, a great boosting move + ability, and the decline of bulky waters, I think it would be fine for Ninetales to move up to B.
 

erisia

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A+ > S: Disagree: Rotom has been getting a huge amount of buzz lately because of its ability to completely grab momentum from the opponent with fast Will-O-Wisps, STAB Volt Switch, and a plethora of good anti-meta sets it can run. However, I don't think this means Rotom should be S rank, as although it can mess with most teams pretty effectively, its overall threat level is not as high as something like Sawk or Sceptile. It requires two turns to land a decently powerful hit and even then it's not that strong, and it doesn't provide enough support to immediately give a setup sweeper the game. Its splashability is superb in this meta, but as a spinblocker it can struggle to take strong attacks as it switches in, such as Hitmonchan's Ice Punch and Kabutops' STAB attacks, making it somewhat unreliable in this regard. Furthermore, special attackers that aren't particularly bothered by its STAB attacks (such as Sceptile, Magmortar, and Lilligant) can come in, take a possible Wisp, and either KO Rotom with a powerful STAB, inflict heavy damage to a teammate, or setup to win the game.

Finally, in terms of its effect on the metagame, it reacts to the metagame, instead of defining it. Everyone needs one (or even two) solid Fighting resists to deal with Sawk. Everyone needs something that can either outspeed Sceptile, hit it with priority, or tank all of its sets (only a few things can do that). Everyone needs a Water resist so that Samurott doesn't sweep you in the late game or wallop you with Hydro Pump. With Rotom, you don't need to pack anything specific to beat it per sé, and because of its slightly passive nature and mostly long-burn game influence, its impact can be minimised through smart play without any specific adaptations needing to be made to your team.

Rotom is a really, really good Pokémon, but in my opinion it doesn't fit with the other S ranks.
 
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if you value using regular audino with audinite for regenerator, then why is it considered useless to just use lefties instead of audinite? You (disjunction) seem to acknowledge that using audino for regenerator is useful, and then say it's effectively worthless because you can do the same thing with mega audinite. but it's not like you can do both at the same time using mega audino. i understand that you have a bit of leeway using audinite since you can use regular audino in case it happens to be more useful at the beginning of a match, but to me you can't say using lefties audino is worthless because of that. mega audino is bulkier with better typing, while regular audino is not quite as bulky but can take special attacks almost good with lefties factored in, plus it can act as a pivot against most special attackers, since your opponent is going to switch and you can pass a wish, use heal bell or knock off and then switch out to regenerate. the ability to do that throughout an entire game is completely viable for a balanced or defensive team, which i can attest to. maybe I'm the only one. although i do seem to remember there being a stall team posted here a month or two ago, don't remember when exactly or the username, but they used lefties audino as a specially defensive pivot in a team that peaked 1, for whatever that's worth. anyways I think E is just way too harsh, it feels weird for me seeing audino put there, but again i could be the only one, i just wonder if anyone else feels the same way
 

Disjunction

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if you value using regular audino with audinite for regenerator, then why is it considered useless to just use lefties instead of audinite? You (disjunction) seem to acknowledge that using audino for regenerator is useful, and then say it's effectively worthless because you can do the same thing with mega audinite. but it's not like you can do both at the same time using mega audino. i understand that you have a bit of leeway using audinite since you can use regular audino in case it happens to be more useful at the beginning of a match, but to me you can't say using lefties audino is worthless because of that. mega audino is bulkier with better typing, while regular audino is not quite as bulky but can take special attacks almost good with lefties factored in, plus it can act as a pivot against most special attackers, since your opponent is going to switch and you can pass a wish, use heal bell or knock off and then switch out to regenerate. the ability to do that throughout an entire game is completely viable for a balanced or defensive team, which i can attest to. maybe I'm the only one. although i do seem to remember there being a stall team posted here a month or two ago, don't remember when exactly or the username, but they used lefties audino as a specially defensive pivot in a team that peaked 1, for whatever that's worth. anyways I think E is just way too harsh, it feels weird for me seeing audino put there, but again i could be the only one, i just wonder if anyone else feels the same way
It's more on the grounds of a technicality, so allow me to explain myself a little better because you bring up a good point.

The way we tier our megas now, and subsequently how we identify megas, is by counting any base form holding their respective mega stone as said mega. This means Mega Audino has the ability to choose between its base form with Regenerator or its Mega Evolved form with its better typing and stats. The only reason we should rank Audino separately from Mega Audino is if there was some distinct niche regular Audino had over its Mega by being able to run a different item, but this is not the case. Mega Audino completely eclipses its vanilla base form in every relevant facet, which is why I nominated regular Audino to E Rank.

The only alternative to this would be ranking the two together, which is an inferior option, in my opinion, because it sends the message that regular Audino without its Mega Stone is as potent as its Mega counterpart. Additionally, it would be incongruent with our tiering philosophy, because you're implying that regular Audino holding its Mega Stone is a different Pokemon, and I'd like the list to stick as close to these policies as much as possible.

Hopefully that explains everything well enough :toast:
 
It's more on the grounds of a technicality, so allow me to explain myself a little better because you bring up a good point.

The way we tier our megas now, and subsequently how we identify megas, is by counting any base form holding their respective mega stone as said mega. This means Mega Audino has the ability to choose between its base form with Regenerator or its Mega Evolved form with its better typing and stats. The only reason we should rank Audino separately from Mega Audino is if there was some distinct niche regular Audino had over its Mega by being able to run a different item, but this is not the case. Mega Audino completely eclipses its vanilla base form in every relevant facet, which is why I nominated regular Audino to E Rank.

The only alternative to this would be ranking the two together, which is an inferior option, in my opinion, because it sends the message that regular Audino without its Mega Stone is as potent as its Mega counterpart. Additionally, it would be incongruent with our tiering philosophy, because you're implying that regular Audino holding its Mega Stone is a different Pokemon, and I'd like the list to stick as close to these policies as much as possible.

Hopefully that explains everything well enough :toast:
i think i see what you're saying, which is that audino with audinite by definition includes regular audino, in other words specially defensive audino with audinite, for example, is essentially better than audino with leftovers since audino with audinite includes regular audino and lefties doesn't make a huge difference. That's understandable. the only thing I would say is that you can use audino solely as a specially defensive pivot. It doesn't need the extra spA if using knock off and the fairy typing doesn't seem to make a difference since it's specially defensive and not trying to switch in on knock offs and hariyamas and whatnot. So for me it's regular audino with lefties vs the possibility of mega evolving which has pros and cons (more bulk but you lose regenerator), without lefties, and I'm personally choosing the former most of the time.
 
Well the most common mega-audino set is physically defensive, so it is able to switch in on hariyamas, whilst it also has the ability to run a cleric set that you're describing, but personally i would never switch in a hariyama / sawk on an audino right now unless i saw lefties or wanted to force a mega. I think that I can understand where you're coming from, but from my point of view, regular audino just suffers in so many ways compared to the mega that the added lefties just isn't worth it. It's setup fodder / switch in fodder for almost every physical attacker in the tier such as sawk, hariyama, rhydon, steelix, barbaracle, etc etc whilst also being setup fodder for calm minders, lilligant, vivi, etc etc. With the added bulk for mega, it adds a whole new list of pokemon that mega-audino can switch in on whilst also having the ability of keeping regenerator prior to mega-evolving.
All in all the role of a cleric, i can see the very small niche of being able to run lefties as appealing to you, but using mega is just far superior in my opinion and hence i agree with where they are both currently ranked right now.
 
from my point of view, regular audino just suffers in so many ways compared to the mega that the added lefties just isn't worth it. It's setup fodder / switch in fodder for almost every physical attacker in the tier such as sawk, hariyama, rhydon, steelix, barbaracle, etc etc whilst also being setup fodder for calm minders, lilligant, vivi, etc etc. With the added bulk for mega, it adds a whole new list of pokemon that mega-audino can switch in on whilst also having the ability of keeping regenerator prior to mega-evolving. All in all the role of a cleric, i can see the very small niche of being able to run lefties as appealing to you, but using mega is just far superior in my opinion and hence i agree with where they are both currently ranked right now.
just want to point out that you're setup fodder either way if we're talking about the specially defensive cleric set (which is what i use), with the exception of certain things like gurdurr if you're using dazzling gleam over knock off. I do think added bulk can be a nice pro of using audinite. It definitely boils down to how often mega evolving is more useful than not mega evolving. If it was like 50/50 every game using the specially defensive set then yeah tiering regular audino just for leftovers isn't really worth it. But regular audino fits very well on defensive teams that make great use of regenerator, which lefties helps with significantly over time (sometimes i think people forget how useful lefties is over a long period of time). It's just switch in to tank a hit, heal bell/knock off/wish, and switch out to regenerate. Again if you're using knock off instead of dazzling gleam, and the fairy typing isn't helping as a specially defensive tank, for me there's almost always no reason to mega evolve and lose regenerator. i'm hoping someone else has some experience using spD audino on defensive teams although it's entirely possible that this thing is more niche than i'm claiming. I do agree mega audino is more useful in most other ways
 
i'm hoping someone else has some experience using spD audino on defensive teams although it's entirely possible that this thing is more niche than i'm claiming. I do agree mega audino is more useful in most other ways
I've used SpD Audino on a lot of defensive teams, and I'd definitely say it's better for it to hold Audinite than Leftovers. During BW I got a lot of mileage from base Audino, so when the mega was released I spent some time bouncing between Leftovers and Audinite to decide which one I preferred, which wasn't too hard.

With Audinite you get the benefits of added bulk and better typing, and you can still take advantage of Regenerator for a while before you mega. The extra Leftovers recovery can be nice in some situations, but Audino is already excellent at keeping itself healthy without them, and having the mega option is much more consistent. It's also nice to have access to a STAB move that can actually cause SE damage, but either way cleric Audino's offensive presence is weak.

Being able to use Audino to absorb Knock Off can also be helpful when dealing with things like Liepard, Shiftry or Gurdurr, although it definitely isn't going to be able to do that consistently against heavy hitters like Sawk. On a similar note, holding the mega stone prevents Audino from being disrupted by TrickScarf.
 
Torterra from B+ to A- seems like a bit of a stretch. It has a lot of bulk:
252 Atk Mold Breaker Sawk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Torterra: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Now, that's pretty good coming from a 300BP move from a base 125 atk power house. True, this is the scarf set and not the choice band set but, that still says something.
Another plus about Torterra is the fact that it's good against Steelix if the player knows the player is going to start it off as it's rock setter. And often times, I see players switch Torterra on Steelix and synthesis off the damage. And Torterra doesn't have that many switch-ins so, sometimes Steelix allows Torterra to set-up, heal up, or take something out/deal a good amount to whatever comes in. Same could go for the Rhydon tank set.
At the same time though, a lot of pokemon have a way of dealing with it, whether it be will-o-wisp, ice beam, ice punch, fire blast, etc.
With that being said, it has a tough time setting up double dance.
So, I think B+ or B rank is just fine for Torterra.
 

Disjunction

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I got some suggestions for lower ranks here

C --> C-

I guess I could say that I want this thing to drop because of Steelix, but it's mostly because I think it's outclassed. It has the strongest Flying STAB move in the tier, but it doesn't mean much when our tier is saturated with solid Flying-resistant mons that can steal away Dodrio's momentum. It's good support for other Flying-types because of its ability to wear down common checks with Brave Bird and Knock Off, but outside of that one specific team archetype you should realistically never be using Dodrio.

C+ --> C-

Arbok was really cool back when Rhydon was everywhere and it could smash it with its colorful coverage options. Now, however, Rhydon has fallen as the most common Rocker and Steelix has taken its place. Steelix, unfortunately, completely destroys Arbok. On top of that, bulky Poison-types are a cornerstone of NU balance because of the relevance of Sawk and Sceptile; however, if I'm running Arbok, I'm either stacking weaknesses by running another Poison-type alongside Arbok that beats those two or I'm forgoing one of these Poison-types that fills the vital defensive niches its typing requires of it.

C- --> E

It's extremely outclassed. Sliggoo's Curse spread is a better special tank and Fraxure is a superior attacker overall because of Dragon Dance and superior Speed. On top of that, its typing hurts it more than it helps because it makes it much weaker to Sceptile than the other Dragons. Any defensive or offensive niche this thing has is better covered by another Dragon and it's really not all that threatening in the first place.

D --> E

The tier is oversaturated with answers to this thing. It's far from threatening, outclassed by Sceptile, and not even close to splashable on any team. Who was the dunce that nominated Simisage to drop before this thing?

D --> C-

I've been using this thing a lot lately and it's a surprisingly cool core breaker. Its rather lacking Special Attack stat is made up by Protean, allowing it to actually outdamage Samurott on some traditional Water-resistant Pokemon.
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 224-265 (67.2 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 255-302 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vileplume: 265-315 (75 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vileplume: 307-361 (86.9 - 102.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 172-203 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 198-234 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

On top of that, it has access to Toxic Spikes and threatens every Defogger in the tier. U-turn is also cool for pivoting and stuff like Jynx. It's also fast enough to outspeed some fast Grass-types, such as Lilligant and Shiftry, which Samurott can't do. I'd argue for higher, but I haven't played around with it all that much and it's shut down by bulky mons it can't hit super effectively.

Unranked --> D

Electrode is really cool! It outspeeds Sceptile with a Modest nature and the one non-scarfed mon it doesn't outspeed with Modest is Swellow, which it can shut out with Soundproof. Here is what I believe to be the most optimal set right now:

Electrode @ Life Orb
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Signal Beam

Hidden Power Ground hits Lanturn and Steelix while Signal Beam hits Sceptile and other assorted Grass-types, such as Tangela and Lilligant. You could run Static if you're unafraid of Swellow and want to punish priority users, but I'm skeptical about how much it would come into play with how frail Electrode is. It's a little weak, but it functions as an alright cleaner lategame and a decent pivot early- to mid-game. Definitely deserving of being ranked given how the meta looks right now.
 
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Quite Quiet

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Because Disjunction so kindly asked (read: forced) me:

C- -> D
This this is pretty awful, honestly. It can sort of pass as a reasonably useful Rain setter, but Liepard is much better at it without being weak to rocks and having better moves outside of Twave and Rain Dance. It just seems to never be worth the bother to use this for Rain Dance.

As for the "potent" Tail Glow Pass:
%Blaziken1337: it seems like it's very gimmicky and I can't see people allowing it to consistently pass off boosts
%Blaziken1337: 63/55/75 isn't exactly impressive bulk
%Blaziken1337: and it's not going to pull up like
%Blaziken1337: a sub against very much
 
I would like to add a little to the Electrode nom, it also gets Taunt which can be a cheeky option to play with and throw off opponents, even being a somewhat risky anti-lead with Taunt and Volt Switch. Aftermath is also a viable ability option to deal some more damage to physical attackers before it goes down. Its speed tier lets it run Modest so it's actually stronger than Zebstrika, despite missing out on Overheat. Overall, a very cool mon that definitely deserves to be on the VR, I would say higher than D.
 
Going to post thoughts on volbeat:
Now I've been using the tail glow pass set and I have to say i've been pleasantly surprised by how it works. Prankster t-wave is more than just a troll, carrying roost makes it fantastic for longetivity and makes tail-glow pass consistent throughout the game consistently passing huge boosts to pokemon. It's more than a useless piece of shit as far as i'm concerned as no-one has ever used it before, but it has the niche of tail-glow + bp which is what I consider to be valuable as a playstyle tbh. Just because no-one at the moment has exploited it on a team doesn't make it unviable, in fact I would suggest it's one of the most under-rated tactics in the tier right now. For that reason alone, I would choose to keep volbeat ranked. (I would have replays but I got rid of my replays for spl scouting :toast:)

As far as a rain setter goes, I would say that having a prankster user + slow u-turn as opposed to fast u-turn in liepard could definitely be considered a niche also, however i have not tested it so far. However, just because a pokemon is not given a chance does not mean it should be demoted. I'd suggest highly that we keep it in C-

Edit: deej became a victim 5 minutes after this post:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-312693122
 
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