ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

[Amaroq]

Most of what's been said about Mega Ampharos also came up the last time we had a discussion on it. Then, as now, I believed that it should move up to low B+, but the arguments against that stance are perfectly valid. To sum it up, it's a solid pivot with useful typing and stats that can serve as a primary or secondary answer to a lot of important threats in the current meta (it can check stuff like Entei, Feraligatr, Sharpedo, Zapdos, Crawdaunt, Honchkrow, the Rotom formes, etc.), but also suffers from a limited movepool and lack of reliable recovery, and is relatively easy to overload and force out. It also presents a significant opportunity cost in that it prevents you from using another Mega Evolution.

As for Gyarados, I think it belongs in S. It's easily one of the best Pokemon in UU right now. It reminds me of Salamence in the sense that it has multiple threatening offensive sets and can also make use of its typing and Intimidate to run a defensive set as well, allowing it to fit easily onto any team archetype.

I also think that regular Aerodactyl should rise to B-. It really only does one thing (suicide for Stealth Rock control), but it does it better than any of the other available options, should a team require its niche. Azelf is a solid suicide lead that benefits from its ability to threaten a Life Orb offensive lead set, but it doesn't guarantee Stealth Rock quite the way Aerodactyl does, should that be necessary. Aerodactyl doesn't really deserve a slot anywhere other than on HO, but it does its one job well enough to rise on strength of that alone. That said, it really only has that one niche, so I can see keeping it where it is.

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

To get back on topic, I do believe that Gyrados should be placed at S rank as well. It has a bunch of sets it can run that have their own benefits and different checks, which makes it incredibly versatile in that regard. The Sub+DD set is by far the best of its sets, since it can set up easily on bulky mons and proceed to set up and sweep.

There is the issue that Bounce is two-turned based, and can be played around, but that can be remedied by using a Power Herb, which can be useful in taking out an opposing Chesnaught that hasn't set up Spikes yet, an unexpected move surely to dumbfound your opponent.

With a lot of sets, Gyrados is able to fit itself in into many different teams without straining your team building to a vast degree. The rise in usage of Electric types should also indicate how much of an impact Gyra has had since dropping, since they're the best reliable answers to it.

I was thinking of nomming it A+ at first because, hey, Electric types, they deal rather well with it. But after coming across multitudes of different sets, each that had to be checked in specific ways, that's what really seals Gyrados in S rank. The unpredictability of what Gyrados you're going up against.

 

[kokoloko]

glad to see people still jump on the "every good new mon in uu is clearly S rank" train

you know what makes gyarados not S? that fact that no matter what set it runs, its checked/countered by a similar type of pokemon. it will never beat p2, umb, good chesnaught sets, etc. and it doesn't have mence's ridiculous speed tier which leaves it vulnerable to revenge killing, just like dd gatr.

which reminds me, its coverage moves are generally bad, only made decent by the fact that gyara has fantastic typing and DD, and is weak as fuck compared to gatr. its only real advantage is its ability to beat base 145s and scarfed 80s at +1... but it cant SD, its ice move is shit, and its crunch is weak as fuck. taunt is cool, another + i suppose.

 

[dodmen]

Changes:

Gyarados -> top of A+
Suicune: S -> A+
Krookodile: A+ -> A
Feraligatr: A+ -> top of A. Gained Gyara as competition and is also slightly hurt by rising usage of Mega Sceptile.
Sableye: moved higher up in A
Azelf: A -> top of A-
Heliolisk: B+ to B
Mega Absol: B to B+
Gardevoir: moved higher up in B+
Tentacruel: moved higher up in B+

I'm leaving Ampharos where it is, physically defensive is a decent answer to some of the offensive Water-types, but overall it's a very mediocre Pokemon especially for a Mega. It struggles to check Substitute variants of Gyarados since it's forced to Volt Switch out to break the Sub. Mega Sceptile is also ranked pretty nicely already, I wouldn't want to move it any higher than where it is in B+.

Nominations:

Chandelure: A to A-, with almost all Cobalion running Stone Edge now it lost one of its biggest "defensive" niches, and Scarf has gotten pretty bad over the last few weeks.
Nidoqueen: A to A-, it's still a very scary threat, but not quite as potent as the rest of A, especially bc of how it just misses out on outspeeding so many key threats.
Crawdaunt's still a bit too high in A- imo...

 

[kokoloko]

no way daunt's not a least a- lol.

i know it's been supremely underwhelming but its still the single biggest immediate threat you can see in front of you. so much so that every bulky mon that can reach 230 speed without giving up a stupid amount of bulk, needs to. i dont think anyone's insane enough to be running shit like blastoise, nidoqueen, moonblast cress, even metagross with less than 230, even mega pert wants to run jolly mostly now so it can outspeed pre-mega :[. these mons want the speed even when they're running like scald/beam/dark pulse on blaster or mash/eq/zen on meta (aka they can't hit daunt) cause they still 2hko and its better to just sac to get dmg most of the time since giving daunt a free hit and letting it come back in on the same thing it came in before is dumb as shit.

and it's not like its got 0 utility vs offense either. take your spl w3 team for example. it can gonna force the azelf to get up rocks and die without touching it or not get up rocks at all, it threatens both mamo and aero (and ape if you don't have mach) with jet and can force 50-50s and if you get it wrong, you're fucked, and it can even do a number on cune if you haven't boosted cause hp electric does like 70. also being forced to come in on revenges "only" isn't that uncommon vs offense so its not like there's any 'it can't come in!" water to stand on.

not to mention its the absolute best wallbreaker to pair with any one of the offensive waters in the tier... really dont think it should be lower than A tbh. daunt's scary man.

personally i dont think gyara is even at the top of A+ but wutevz everyone else will catch on soon enough.

 

[pokemonisfun]

As a wallbreaker I think Crawdaunt is probably at an A level of effectiveness not just because it's SD set but also because of its ability to run Knock Off Crabhammer Aqua Jet and either Ice Beam or Sludge Wave. Generally this is able to kill the bulky grasses Tangrowth and Chesnaught with no prediction and Whimsicott with prediction which is why SD isn't necessary since these guys are scarier for the offensive water types compared to bulky waters. While you lose the ability to defeat Alomomola and Suicune, those two were never particularly proficient at walling Sharpedo and Feraligatr and Gyarados, especially Sharpedo as he can pretty easily beat them if Crawdaunt takes away their Leftovers by fishing for a Defense drop. Just my two cents as a guy using various Scaldy water types to wall Crawdaunt.

 

[Pearl]

jumping on the bandwagon to move Crawdaunt up to A at least. koko's post sums up my opinion perfectly and pif's also does a pretty good job at explaining how painful it is to handle crab as a stall player. however, the point I'd like to stress out the most (so this one nomination isn't completely useless) is how Crawdaunt isn't as helpless against offense as other dedicated wallbreakers. CB aqua jet is a good revenge killing tool against a lot of common mons (krook, mega stone bird/bee and most fire-types for example) and SD + sash can consistently net a kill per game (unless it is not used optimally), heavily disrupts suicide leads and still has aqua jet's utility even if sitting at 1 hp. anyway, it's a pretty neat Pokemon which is being underrated like crazy

haven't used Chandelure at all lately so I'm not gonna comment on it and I agree with Nidoqueen moving down, but I'll explain why in tandem with another nomination

with that said, here are some (mostly irrelevant) nominations of my own:

B+ to B - gets boned by all of the electric/grass mons that gyarados made spike in popularity and has pretty meh match ups against both crab and gyarados (SubDD is tricky to handle). it still has a cool niche stallbreaker set, but the meta evolved in a way that makes it a lot harder to pull off

B+ to A- - "Nidoqueen misses out on outpacing many threats", which is why I think king should be a lot higher than it is right now (below Slowking would be fine). it has pretty much all of Queen's offensive options (except it is a lot better at running lure moves such as Shadow Ball for Zong/Cress/other psychic mons or Superpower/Thunderbolt), its speed tier is amazing for the role it has to perform (ties with Toxicroak, outruns Mamoswine and unboosted Gyarados, as well as some other Pokemon Queen just misses on). it is a little less beefier than queen, which means it can't check some stuff (mostly fighting mons) that queen would be able to in a pinch, but it's more versatile from an offensive standpoint due to the factors I've mentioned before and that's enough for it to be moved up IMO. if it's not, then put it above doublade in B+ at least

B to B+ (bottom of B+ is ok, although I think Tornadus is a lot better than that) - oh boy where should I even start when talking about this Pokemon. I only have experience with one set, but the amount of things things this Pokemon can run is incredible. with that said, I'm only going to talk about LO Special (Hurricane / Focus Blast / Grass Knot / filler) because that's what I've been running. if you count the amount of Flying resists there are across S + all A ranks, you'll see those are quite limited, with Zapdos being the only one that can come in on Tornadus without fearing getting nuked (if you exclude misses). Aerodactyl takes a lot of damage and is pretty much forced into recovering if SR is up and Empoleon dies to Focus Blast after Hurricane / Grass Knot damage. its support moves are pretty neat too. it can run taunt to stop florges and other specially defensive Pokemon that it can't instantly eliminate from recovering/boosting on it or set up the field with Rain Dance / Tailwind for its teammates to wreck havoc. a 4th offensive move isn't totally out of question either, since knock off / sludge wave / heat wave / hidden power ice are all reliable options that can catch typical torn switch ins off guard. physical sets have a niche (bulk up + acro + coverage is interesting for example), but i can't say im a fan of them with zapdos + other solid physically defensive pokemon around.

B- to B - gets SR up consistently against Defog Zapdos if it's packing toxic (HP Ice isn't as common as Toxic/HP Grass/Heat Wave), brings glass cannons in safely through its slow U-turn and checks a lot of Pokemon that would be painful to deal with otherwise (most Lucario, Mega Bee, some Zapdos and fighting-types).

stuff that I wouldn't mind seeing but doesn't really bother me much either: Florges to A (between Krook and Shark), Blastoise to A-, Gardevoir and Sceptile to A-and Metagross to B-

 

[FatCorgi]

jumping on the bandwagon to move Crawdaunt up to A at least. koko's post sums up my opinion perfectly and pif's also does a pretty good job at explaining how painful it is to handle crab as a stall player. however, the point I'd like to stress out the most (so this one nomination isn't completely useless) is how Crawdaunt isn't as helpless against offense as other dedicated wallbreakers. CB aqua jet is a good revenge killing tool against a lot of common mons (krook, mega stone bird/bee and most fire-types for example) and SD + sash can consistently net a kill per game (unless it is not used optimally), heavily disrupts suicide leads and still has aqua jet's utility even if sitting at 1 hp. anyway, it's a pretty neat Pokemon which is being underrated like crazy

haven't used Chandelure at all lately so I'm not gonna comment on it and I agree with Nidoqueen moving down, but I'll explain why in tandem with another nomination

with that said, here are some (mostly irrelevant) nominations of my own:

B to B+ (bottom of B+ is ok, although I think Tornadus is a lot better than that) - oh boy where should I even start when talking about this Pokemon. I only have experience with one set, but the amount of things things this Pokemon can run is incredible. with that said, I'm only going to talk about LO Special (Hurricane / Focus Blast / Grass Knot / filler) because that's what I've been running. if you count the amount of Flying resists there are across S + all A ranks, you'll see those are quite limited, with Zapdos being the only one that can come in on Tornadus without fearing getting nuked (if you exclude misses). Aerodactyl takes a lot of damage and is pretty much forced into recovering if SR is up and Empoleon dies to Focus Blast after Hurricane / Grass Knot damage. its support moves are pretty neat too. it can run taunt to stop florges and other specially defensive Pokemon that it can't instantly eliminate from recovering/boosting on it or set up the field with Rain Dance / Tailwind for its teammates to wreck havoc. a 4th offensive move isn't totally out of question either, since knock off / sludge wave / heat wave / hidden power ice are all reliable options that can catch typical torn switch ins off guard. physical sets have a niche (bulk up + acro + coverage is interesting for example), but i can't say im a fan of them with zapdos + other solid physically defensive pokemon around.

I Can get behind this, easily. I recently used Tornadus for an Iron Chef team and I quickly fell in love with it's flexibility and dependability. I can think of three excellent sets off the top of my head, and I'm not going to doubt that there are more, and potentially some niche/gimmicks with Tornadus. Overall, I agree, and hopefully I'm not the only one.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I nominate Alomomola to go to B+ on the merits of its standard Wish Protect set with near max investment in both defenses.

It's a great mixed wall because of Regenerator and high HP which means it's the only viable Pokemon that can switch into all the S threats and most of A+ to scout or counter. The ones you can't switch in are generally not as threatening (CM Florges and Crocune). The exception is Gyarados but you can beat some variants of that still at least and you have a non zero chance of beating the Substtue Bounce set because Protect. This alone makes it B+ worthy but it also can support the team with Wish and spreading status. Because of Regenerator momentum loss is kept to a minimum as you often do not have to waste time healing and simply threaten switch ins with Toxic. While you are generally limited to stall based and balanced based teams, that status hasn't stopped Jellicent and Cresselia which offer similar levels of defensive utility firm also being B+ rank. Also remember there are essentially no physical Grass or Electric Pokemon in UU which means Alomomola is one of the very best mixed walls.

I also nominate Umbreon to rise to B+ or A- rank.

Unlike Alomomola Umbreon actually has an outright shocking amount of versatility, it can viably run its old standard Wish Protect Heal Bell but also easily fit Moonlight Toxic Heal Bell which beats more Pokemon with Toxic such as Hydreigon and Zapdos and has non phazable recovery at the expense of losing a valuable support move. In these sets Umbreon can run any amount of bulk, from max special to max physical in order to counter different threats better; maximum physical defense is one of the most reliable counters to the physical waters and dragons bar Crawdaunt while maximum special is perhaps the best (or even only?) defensive counter to NP Azelf. Umbre on can even run moves like Taunt, Sucker Punch and Baton Pass to achieve specific goals such as beating most Reuniclus, useful for the defensive teams Umbreon most often finds itself in.
I'm even pretty confident a Work Up Baton Pass set can be effective, similar to Nasty Pass Togekiss.

Few set up sweepers can actually take advantage of Umbreons low offenses because a combination of Foul Play, Taunt and Toxic so Umbreon is not a gigantic drain on momentum and can even fit on balanced teams. Umbreon's real issue lies in the fact that other defensive Pokemon can take advantage of it by setting up hazards or otherwise using utility moves which Umbreon's slow and rare Taunt often cannot prevent. It also invited dangerous Fighting Pokemon which do not require set up to maul Umbreon and its team, although Foul Play can do a number to them. This is especially problematic with the never ending rise of Cobalion. However the fact that Umbreon sports such massive mixed bulk and good utility moves generally far overshadow his flaws, which to be fair are generally just the typical flaws of a defensive Pokemon.

 

[Cactrune]

I'm seconding this Umbreon nomination. PhysDef Umbreon in this meta is a great defensive Pokemon in terms of role compression and its ability to check many key UU threats. Thanks to great mixed bulk and decent movepool, which makes it less passive than a number of other walls, it makes a great check to Gyarados, Salamence, Mega Abomasnow, Zapdos, Doublade, Feraligatr, the Nidos, and others. With enough health left, it can check most physical threats that aren't Bug, Fighting, Dragon, or Fairy-types, which is a huge deal in this metagame. Pair it up with something like Salamence, a Fairy-type, or a Steel-type, and you have the makings of a great defensive core. Umbreon is cool. Give it a shot.

 

[YABO]

Hello everyone, I have an urgent change that needs to happen right now because somehow this pokemon remained in a rank that it has no business being in. This pokemon is none other than Magneton. What the fuck does this thing even do? I'll answer than question, NOTHING. Well, not nothing but it pretty much does nothing. For example, you trap Forretress (yay) and Empoleon (kinda sorta relevant); that's it. Trapping Forre is pretty much irrelevant in a lot of matchups as it is so easy to exploit or prevent from doing its job. I would never dedicate an entire slot on my team to a mediocre dude who can trap Forre of all things. Every other steel either outspeeds and kills like Cobalion and Lucario, or doesn't give a fuck about Magneton such as Doublade or Steelix. Aside from that, Magneton doesn't really do much to set itself apart from the 3000 other electrics that we have in the tier. It's typing is pretty cool but doesn't really help it versus the things that steel types need to check (Salamence, Florges, etc). Combine this with a mediocre speed tier and sub par bulk and you have a pokemon that is just stuck in its awkward phase. Frankly, Magneton sucks and doesn't really fit in with the likes of Haxorus, Amoonguss, Seismitoad, and others. So yeah, Magneton should drop to either C or C-. In a similar vein, Dugtrio is also terrible for the same reasons as Magneton but at least that dude has SR, Memento, etc.

 

[jjoshcja]

Hello everyone, I have an urgent change that needs to happen right now because somehow this pokemon remained in a rank that it has no business being in. This pokemon is none other than Magneton. What the fuck does this thing even do? I'll answer than question, NOTHING. Well, not nothing but it pretty much does nothing. For example, you trap Forretress (yay) and Empoleon (kinda sorta relevant); that's it. Trapping Forre is pretty much irrelevant in a lot of matchups as it is so easy to exploit or prevent from doing its job. I would never dedicate an entire slot on my team to a mediocre dude who can trap Forre of all things. Every other steel either outspeeds and kills like Cobalion and Lucario, or doesn't give a fuck about Magneton such as Doublade or Steelix. Aside from that, Magneton doesn't really do much to set itself apart from the 3000 other electrics that we have in the tier. It's typing is pretty cool but doesn't really help it versus the things that steel types need to check (Salamence, Florges, etc). Combine this with a mediocre speed tier and sub par bulk and you have a pokemon that is just stuck in its awkward phase. Frankly, Magneton sucks and doesn't really fit in with the likes of Haxorus, Amoonguss, Seismitoad, and others. So yeah, Magneton should drop to either C or C-. In a similar vein, Dugtrio is also terrible for the same reasons as Magneton but at least that dude has SR, Memento, etc.

Trapping is bad, it only works 100% of the time. (unless you're massive and run shed shell)

Mag can actually pack a pretty ridiculous specs analytic set if you're not feeling a completely slurpuff/bird focused team, putting anything that try's to swap in on volt switch not named blissy at DIE% after rocks or just flat ohkoing. Hell bliss still takes 31% minimum after rocks and lefties, from a neutral 70bp momentum move.

Mag just has a bad case of weird ass speed tier syndrome making it fantastic vs slower teams and mediocre vs offense (its actually an "ok" blanket-redundant soft check thanks to its hellmurder power and semi-unique typing)

Crawdaunt is not A rank, it's significantly worse than comperable wallbreakers in every way sans immediate power, and even then it's not exactly stellar with only semi-unique stab typing to differentiate it's overall output. The little bastard is just a black hole in team synergy that flat out requires you to either run momentum, or heavily outskill the opponent (#doubleallday) to use outside of revenge kills at a wonderful 65 base speed and a big 40 BP prio option in a tier where over preparing for waters and darks is almost mandatory.

That said soviet crab does have a really good home on water overload HO making it a pretty solid B/B+. Too bad there are a big 5 other mon's living in that home or I might actually see A- being a thing (but only if luke was also bumped because loldauntoverluke)

 

[dodmen]

Changes:

Cobalion: A to A+. With 90% of SD Cobalion running Stone Edge now, it's much tougher to offensively check it with Salamence, Zapdos, Gyarados, and Chandelure, leaving Doublade and Azelf as the only reliable offensive checks to it. With Lum, it can get past even more checks with Sableye, Jellicent, and Suicune with a little bit of prior damage. And as always, its bulk Speed and typing are great for sweeping etc.
Nidoqueen: A to A-
Crawdaunt: way higher up in A-. I ended up agreeing with koko on this one. I don't quite agree that it's A material but I definitely undersold it at first.
Mienshao: moved lower in B+
Infernape: moved higher in B+
Alomomola: B- to B. I like this nom a lot, all its attributes make it a prime choice for stall and semistall, including being one of the only 1.5 counters to Mamoswine. Kinda surprised I missed this one being at B-, I could see it even rising a little higher.
Jellicent: B+ to B. Pearl summed it up well, it's not as good against the overall metagame as it was a month or so ago.
Tornadus: B to B+
Gligar: B- to B
Omastar: unranked to C

I'm hesitant to move Magneton down because it's still quite threatening imo, for example being an Electric type that threatens the fuck out of Florges and has no reason not to run HP Grass makes it unique in a similar way that Haxorus and Moltres are unique. It's not only there because of its trapping abilities: I agree, that aspect is pretty mediocre and is difficult to justify using an entire team slot just to trap two or three steel types, but there's a lot more to Mag than that.

Nominations:

Mega Abomasnow: B+ to B
Umbreon: B to B+
Alomomola: B to B+
Nidoking: B+ to A-
Mandibuzz: B to B-

 

[Euphonos]

Mega Abomasnow from B+ to B

I'm very hesitant to move Mega Abomasnow down. Though its slow speed opens up to literally a plethora of attackers, switching in on Hail-boosted STAB Blizzards would be a pain to face (Blizzard + Giga Drain + Ice Shard + possibly Earthquake or Growth could is one of the best sets this Pokemon could do in this metagame), especially to some Steel-type Pokemon that they won't be considered as switch-ins anymore.​

Umbreon from B to B+

In my opinion, I'm hesitant to move Umbreon up. While it has (almost) all the tools and the stats a support Pokemon can have, lack of offensive capabilities (with Foul Play being the most used attack) leaves it to be set-up fodder against Pokemon like Calm Mind Florges. However, as I didn't use Umbreon at all in this metagame, I speculate that this nomination is coming from people electing Baton Pass on Umbreon to start the momentum going, which is understandable.
​

Alomomola from B to B+

dodmen has said this very well enough to warrant a B+ spot in the viability rankings, and I can attest to it.​

Nidoking from B+ to A-

Nidoking got undermined in the earlier metagames because those times were more focused on bulk and Nidoqueen is far better performing that role. As several Pokemon entered the metagame, Nidoking made its name known once more because of one attribute Nidoqueen doesn't have: Speed. While Nidoqueen has marginally higher damage output for its propensity to run Modest nature, Nidoking's Speed makes it a worthwhile threat faster balanced builds have to face without compromising too much on its damage output.​

Mandibuzz from B to B-

As testament to how Hydreigon fulfills its role much better than Mandibuzz as a Stall breaker, I'm okay with Mandibuzz going down (though this is open for discussions and everything); however, what sets Mandibuzz apart from Hydreigon is its ability to sponge key attacks Hydreigon can't (though it can't take Thunderbolt), especially Draco Meteors. Also, I don't think having Defog in Mandibuzz's moveset isn't recommended to clear hazards away; people should have used other Pokemon like Tentacruel, Mega Blastoise, or Forretress to control hazards that way. Plus, its ability to disrupt hazard controllers and other status-inducing moves is nice to have.​

 

[Threw]

Not sure about Nidoking moving up. Like Euph said, it all comes down to whether the Speed is worth it. Here's a list of relevant mons it outspeeds at Jolly+ that the typical Nidoqueen set doesn't.

Crawdaunt Ampharos Metagross Cloyster Magneton Hoopa Honchkrow Tyrantrum Absol Beedrill Feraligatr Chandelure Gardevoir Mamoswine Swampert-Mega Slurpuff Rotom-C Rotom-H Absol Beedrill Gyarados

And that's pretty much it (hope I didn't miss anything). Now how many of these 'mons does King straight up beat 1v1 that Queen doesn't?

Honchkrow Tyrantrum Gardevoir Chandelure Gyarados

Pretty short list right? Even these are mostly pretty deceptive. Honchkrow OHKOes King with Sucker Punch at +1, which it very well may be at since you don't want to switch King into anything it doesn't resist; the next 3 are Choice users that often aren't hard to play around, and they each only have one move that gives Queen trouble--in other words, do some smart switching and Queen handles them just as well as King (by the way, all can run Scarf over Specs/Band, in which case King's advantage is completely erased); and, finally, Gyarados, which is something King will only be able to handle if 1. It runs Tbolt over Ice Beam 2. it gets a free switch in and 3. Gyara has done no Subbing or setting up.

I'm not gonna try to compile a list of things Queen beats that King doesn't, but I'm sure the list would be quite a bit longer. This was pretty overly simplistic, but the point is that I don't think Nidoking's Speed advantage over Nidoqueen, which is the only thing going for it, is as important as we want it to be. As such, I don't think that King deserves to be equal with Queen, so it should stay in B+.

 

[Kreme]

Not sure about Nidoking moving up. Like Euph said, it all comes down to whether the Speed is worth it. Here's a list of relevant mons it outspeeds at Jolly+ that the typical Nidoqueen set doesn't.

Crawdaunt Ampharos Metagross Cloyster Magneton Hoopa Honchkrow Tyrantrum Absol Beedrill Feraligatr Chandelure Gardevoir Mamoswine Swampert-Mega Slurpuff Rotom-C Rotom-H Absol Beedrill Gyarados

And that's pretty much it (hope I didn't miss anything). Now how many of these 'mons does King straight up beat 1v1 that Queen doesn't?

Honchkrow Tyrantrum Gardevoir Chandelure Gyarados

Pretty short list right? Even these are mostly pretty deceptive. Honchkrow OHKOes King with Sucker Punch at +1, which it very well may be at since you don't want to switch King into anything it doesn't resist; the next 3 are Choice users that often aren't hard to play around, and they each only have one move that gives Queen trouble--in other words, do some smart switching and Queen handles them just as well as King (by the way, all can run Scarf over Specs/Band, in which case King's advantage is completely erased); and, finally, Gyarados, which is something King will only be able to handle if 1. It runs Tbolt over Ice Beam 2. it gets a free switch in and 3. Gyara has done no Subbing or setting up.

I'm not gonna try to compile a list of things Queen beats that King doesn't, but I'm sure the list would be quite a bit longer. This was pretty overly simplistic, but the point is that I don't think Nidoking's Speed advantage over Nidoqueen, which is the only thing going for it, is as important as we want it to be. As such, I don't think that King deserves to be equal with Queen, so it should stay in B+.

I really think Nidoking's Speed is being undersold here, honestly speaking. While it doesn't straight up 1v1 a lot of those 'mons, that isn't what the Speed's main thing is. The Speed prevents a lot of pressure coming from those Pokemon that would normally use Nidoqueen as a free turn to capitalize on. For example, you're forcing Mamoswine to either Ice Shard or take a lot from a potential Earth Power or Superpower as opposed to just being able to EQ / whatever freely, Mega Swampert is going to take a lot from Earth Power instead of just being able to click a move for free, Tyrantrum is unable to click EQ / Outrage for free and instead just gets smacked, Gyarados unboosted can't just come in on Nidoking to use it as something that can act as potential setup fodder whereas against Nidoqueen, Gyara can just pressure it out or straight up remove it. Those are just a few examples but basically Nidoking may not be able to 1v1 a lot of the Pokemon that Nidoqueen can't by virtue of its Speed but the Speed allows it to alleviate a lot of offensive pressure from many dangerous Pokemon and the Speed tier is just slightly above the newly popular base 80-ish Speed tier anyhow. All that being said though, I really do feel most teams would much prefer Nidoqueen in general and in terms of viability I do feel Nidoqueen should still be above Nidoking in this metagame despite Nidoking being better than it was due to metagame trends. I just really wanted to clear up the main pros of the Speed increase from Nidoking though.

 

[kokoloko]

idk why people seem to think nidoqueen /has/ to run modest and not max speed. queen has tons more utility, and you /can/ go timid if you want to beat all the 70s and you're still not getting ohko'd by shit like mence since:

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 282-333 (87.8 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 273-322 (85 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 252-298 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

as opposed to dropping dead to all of those attacks (the last eq is a roll, but wutevz). the difference between king and queen is specifically that, queen survives, or has a really good chance to, survive pretty much any non-super effective stab boosted attack while king drops to pretty much any strong stab or just super effective attack.

granted, king's speed tier is much better in a meta with gyara, but here's a fun calc:

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 288-338 (89.7 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

and if its adamant and you're timid, you outspeed. and tbolt isnt bad on queen anymore cause of this pos + its good for teams that have trouble busting past shit like cune/milo/vap (milo actually being decent now since its a good mence + gyara check (scald/beam/recover/haze or hp elec + it has competitive which is prob cool as fuck with all these intimidate and defog mons flying around :o).

and if you really wanna ensure you live all these hits just drop the speed down to 263? (w/e beats jolly pert/gross + adamant gyara) and dump the rest in bulk.

i realize all these calcs don't include rocks but there's a pretty good reason for that. queen is an early game mon that fits on offense, so you should be able to keep rocks off a lot of the time. besides, rocks affect both king and queen and then there's a whole bunch of other shit queen stays out of range of while king drops dead. you guys are really undervaluing what a bulky attacker can do.

 

[PK Gaming]

Nidoking: The extra Speed is nice since there are some good mons below its Speed tier, but it's not that significant enough to warrant moving it up a tier. The meta is just too fast for Nidoking and Nidoqueen's ability to take stronger hits makes her more valuable in general. I'd leave it in B+.

Mega Abomasnow: No comment.

Umbreon: Sure. It's a solid support mon, and even though Dark isn't that great of a defensive typing, its kit lets it deal with obnoxious Pokemon. I'm a little hesitant because giving Cobalion and other mons an invitation to fuck your shit up definitely feels like a bad thing™, but I think hilarious made a good case for it.

Alomomola: No Comment.

Mandibuzz: It's a little worse for wear these days, but it's still a fat defog bird that can pull its weight in a match. It should stay in B imo.

 

[lucqq]

First post on vr; bear with me.

Pearl brought up an excellent point on

Tornadus, and as it stands, Tornadus is a little bit below what it should be. Likewise to Pearl, I have only used the Special set, and it is brutal. The 4 attacks set and taunt both punch holes and stallbreak respectively. The AOA set itself though is very effective due to Tornadus' wide movepool. You are not confined to just Focus/Knot/Hurricane/Taunt or Heat wave, but you can also run Superpower, Knock off, u-turn or Acro, depending on what your team needs. The wide coverage and unpredictability allows limited switchins and is very hard to handle. It also has an impecable speed tier. I couldn't help but notice the fact that I could outspeed 90% (estimated guess) of the tier, including creeping Heliolisk and Infernape.

Tornadus is weak to rocks however and cannot take hits very well unlike it's Therian form. All in all though, strong BP moves, an incredible speed tier and limited switchins warrants at least a spark of convosation for Tornadus.

 

[LRXC]

I really think Infernape needs a raise from B+ to A-, I couldn't believe it when I saw Infernape at B+, I definetly think it should be A- and possibly A, and here is why. (Omg what no "Hey Everyone LittleRunnerXC here!")

B+ to A-
Infernape really needs to be raised for multiple reasons. For one, I feel it is one of the most threatening mons in UU right now. It is such a versatile mon, and is able to accomplish many jobs for a team. In my opinion, it is the most unpredictable mon in the UU metagame, being able to run a scarf set, all out attacking, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Stealth rocks lead, heck even Expert belt! Infernape also sits at a very important speed tier, as it can outspeed base 100's and really gain offensive momentum; especially with its access to U-turn. Its impact on the current metagame is huge, as its NP set can threaten out Gyarados on the switch, it can outspeed Crawdaunt with vacuum wave or mach punch, and has phenomenal coverage that is very hard to wall. Because of this extraordinary versatility, it is very hard for current teams to prepare for the threat that is Infernape, specifically its NP set. No matter what kind of team you build, almost every team will have trouble with it. If you have a counter for it, your counter may be easily taken out, due to the barrage of moves Infernape can throw at it. Chandelure is the main NP counter right now, but what if Infernape runs Earthquake or Stone Edge? Many special walls may switch into Infernape, but if Infernape gets a +2, it can do colossal damage to them, like Blissey and Florges. Salamence is a popular counter to NP Infernape, but again, what if Infernape runs Stone Edge, ice punch, or hp ice?? Thats the thing about infernape, it is hard to prepare for, and can be easily altered to deal with certain counters to it. Many of the high ranked mons in UU, get killed from a +2 Infernape. Now, it can't run every single move at once, but the idea of having a move for many of its checks is hard pressing.

Overall, I just think the presence of Infernape is a very good one, and that it most definetly needs a raise in the VR's with this current meta, because of its overall versatility and power.
Thanks for reading! (The text and font is being weird sorry)

 

[Hogg]

Mega Abomasnow: B+ to B
Umbreon: B to B+
Alomomola: B to B+
Nidoking: B+ to A-
Mandibuzz: B to B-

The only one of these I'm still a bit iffy about is Nidoking. I love King, and actually prefer it to Queen on more offensive teams, but I still don't quite see it at the same level as Queen and the other 'mons in A-. The difference in bulk really is pretty significant in this meta, especially when it comes to doing things like tanking Dracos from anti-balance 'mons like Hydreigon and LO Salamence.

Regarding the others... yeah, they should pretty much all happen. Mandibuzz's main niche of being a stallbreaker that also counters the hell out of most Reuniclus sets is pretty irrelevant now thanks to Sableye (and the related Reuniclus usage dropping sharply), and while it can still do good work on the right team, it just doesn't feel like a B+ 'mon anymore. Alomomola and Umbreon have definitely been showing their value on a ton of teams, with Alomomola usage in particular going way up lately. Abomasnow dropping is a bit sad, and I think it's still pretty good, but recent drops just haven't been friendly to it, with Gyara in particular causing problems for it.

I'd be alright seeing Infernape move up to A-, though. NP and mixed Infernape have both just been so threatening in this meta.

 

[lucqq]

Agreeing with a move up to A- for

Infernape. The drop of Sableye has been quite nice for it. I won't rehash what LittleRunnerXC said, but Infernape is incredibly versatile and can run a variety of wallbreaking sets and stallbreaking sets with extreme ease. A great thing about Infernape is just how flexible it is.

Problem with Infernape however is major 4MSS. For example with the NP set, Salamence and Chandelure are reliable checks, and without sacrifising Grass Knot for one of your STAB's, you are not going to hit them well at all without running something obscure such as HP Rock or Stone Edge, HP Ice for the Drags. SD set is similar; you can't hit everything you want to, and chances are Nape will always be hardwalled by something due to it missing the coverage

Overall though, Infernape deserves a move up to A- at least, due to how versatile it is and how strong of a wallbreaker it really is. A bit shocked to see it so low on the VR tbh, as it's one of the tiers premier offensive threats.

 

[HighClassSweep]

Now, I know this is my first post and my favorite mon is Infernape, but promise me, this won't be biased. Infernape's move pool lets him run rampant in the tier. There are a few problems with this very mixed mon. Like the other users have said, it's very versatile, but gets stopped in its tracks by dragons or flying type mons. Swampert will take decent damage from a close combat, but it isn't worth wasting a space for grass knot. You will need to run stone edge of hp rock to have a chance against, something like, Zapdos or Gligar. It does have its advantages though. It can run thunder punch for gyarados,suicune,vaporeon, etc.He is a great stall stopped if you will. Forretress and Galvantula aren't problems with this Pokemon. In conclusion, I'm VERY surprised it's not A-. Heck, it deserves A! But, baby steps I guess.

 

[Nightingales]

I feel like you underestimate the Mixed and Special sets. Nasty Plot is vicious, and dismantles teams not prepared for it. Mixed handles things that think it'll wall a special set like Blissey, not to mention a +2 Vacuum Wave hits like a truck to most common scarfers so outspeeding it's a tall order too.

But yeah, after getting back into the groove, agreeing with a rise.

 

[Cheryl.]

I'm surprised I haven't seen much discussion on this thing:

Virizion for C+ / B-

Virizion has been getting a bit of hype lately, and it's clear to see why. It's one of the most threatening sweepers right now in the metagame as Grass typing is really nice with all the bulky waters and Electric types running around, and with a really nice STAB combination, passable attacking stats combined with a boosting move in Swords Dance (and Calm Mind I guess), and a great 108 Speed stat makes it a very big threat. It also has good coverage in it's STABs and Stone Edge, letting it bypass would-be counters like Chandelure and Zapdos. It also finds many set-up oppurtunities thanks to bulky waters being everywhere, and it has decent special bulk so it can take a hit as well. While Virizion may have some flaws in it's bad physical bulk, having competiton from other Grass or Fighting types, and being outsped by some mons like Mega Aerodactyl, overall with it's very nice typing and STAB combination and vicious Speed stat letting it run through many unprepared teams, I think Virizion is suitable for a rise in this meta.