I've found Red Orb Togekiss is a solid check to Absolite Manaphy - with a spread of 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD it can endure a +3 Hidden Power Ground and OHKO back with Solar Beam. I haven't faced a Sceptilite Manaphy yet, so I have no idea how it performs against that.
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Ladder Mix and Mega
- Thread starter Imperator Romanum
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Tbh an underrated is coverage option Ancient power. It hit's all the Red orb users anf can be used effectively with Grass knot - all in all it's an option with meh coverage. However, it's unique in that if you get the boost your opponent is in deep, deep shit... Priority doesn't work...
The strongest -ate user doesn't 2hko anymore. Nor will you be able to outspeed it, at 1+.
All in all, it probably isn't the best option but it's another way to counter previous threats
The strongest -ate user doesn't 2hko anymore. Nor will you be able to outspeed it, at 1+.
All in all, it probably isn't the best option but it's another way to counter previous threats
just gonna post to say red orb volcarona is really good and you should try it since after 1 qd if your opponent has no pinsirite mon left they are pretty much fucked lol
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey in Sun: 306-361 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
Blissey can't even switchin if rocks are up and it doesn't have SpDef and this is not even modest. Btw it's sablenite blissey
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Togekiss in Sun: 174-205 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
Someone mentioned it a couple posts ago and it seems like a decent check -except it's not.
Hope you use red orb volc now, it can really sweep teams with rocks and ate removal.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey in Sun: 306-361 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
Blissey can't even switchin if rocks are up and it doesn't have SpDef and this is not even modest. Btw it's sablenite blissey
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Togekiss in Sun: 174-205 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
Someone mentioned it a couple posts ago and it seems like a decent check -except it's not.
Hope you use red orb volc now, it can really sweep teams with rocks and ate removal.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
I don't think Manaphy is banworthy. Good, yes, but not broken. It had two viable sets and you know it will run two moves (TG+Scald, Surf is generally inferior because of the burn chance) and it has 3 choices of coverage move (Ice Beam, HP ground, GK|Energy Ball). It's always walled by something and Blissey - without a grass move it's stopped by bulky waters and itself, without HP ground it's walled by certain Red Orb mons.
Going through the VR for stuff to check it (assuming absolite because that hits harder and is better in general imo, except as a lure)
-Pdon needs 252/88 to survive +3 HP ground/GK, but misses out on an OHKO with blades (it does at least 80% if adamant)
-Sceptilite Energy Ball Manaphy can beat Absolite iirc
-Red orb Tini can survive +3 HP Ground with 252/12 and has a 62.5% chance of OHKOing back with modest Solar Beam
-CM Sablenite Blissey comes in on anything Manaphy does and only really dislikes the burn chance (but it still wins bar crits, even if it comes in on a TG). Slowbronite might also do ok.
-Cameruptite Hoopa doesn't even need to invest to tank any +3 attack (no, Manaphy isn't running signal beam or dazzling gleam) and OHKOs back with Timid Tbolt/Energy Ball
-Manectite Thundy can come in on any attack if it's already mega'd, and outspeeds and almost always OHKOs with Tbolt
-Sablenite Mew can come in on anything, and if it's running Anmesiapass (which I've seen surprisingly often) then it walls Manaphy to hell and back
-Univested Ekiller can come in on any attack and usually 2HKO
-Red Orb Tran beats HP Ground-less Manaphy with ease
-Fully invested Blue Orb Ferro takes any +6 attack and OHKOs back with Power Whip
-252/36 Soul Dew Latios survives +3 Ice Beam and OHKOs back with 220+ Draco (latias won't always OHKO with 252+)
-Bulkyish Venusaurite Zapdos takes anything at +3 and OHKOs back with 196+ Tbolt
And that's just the S down to A- mons. All of them can switch in on Manaphy and win, and if that's not required then there's a lot more which wins 1v1.
Going through the VR for stuff to check it (assuming absolite because that hits harder and is better in general imo, except as a lure)
-Pdon needs 252/88 to survive +3 HP ground/GK, but misses out on an OHKO with blades (it does at least 80% if adamant)
-Sceptilite Energy Ball Manaphy can beat Absolite iirc
-Red orb Tini can survive +3 HP Ground with 252/12 and has a 62.5% chance of OHKOing back with modest Solar Beam
-CM Sablenite Blissey comes in on anything Manaphy does and only really dislikes the burn chance (but it still wins bar crits, even if it comes in on a TG). Slowbronite might also do ok.
-Cameruptite Hoopa doesn't even need to invest to tank any +3 attack (no, Manaphy isn't running signal beam or dazzling gleam) and OHKOs back with Timid Tbolt/Energy Ball
-Manectite Thundy can come in on any attack if it's already mega'd, and outspeeds and almost always OHKOs with Tbolt
-Sablenite Mew can come in on anything, and if it's running Anmesiapass (which I've seen surprisingly often) then it walls Manaphy to hell and back
-Univested Ekiller can come in on any attack and usually 2HKO
-Red Orb Tran beats HP Ground-less Manaphy with ease
-Fully invested Blue Orb Ferro takes any +6 attack and OHKOs back with Power Whip
-252/36 Soul Dew Latios survives +3 Ice Beam and OHKOs back with 220+ Draco (latias won't always OHKO with 252+)
-Bulkyish Venusaurite Zapdos takes anything at +3 and OHKOs back with 196+ Tbolt
And that's just the S down to A- mons. All of them can switch in on Manaphy and win, and if that's not required then there's a lot more which wins 1v1.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Sorry gonna post my thous on Mana later but needed to post this replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-329416001
AllJokesAside don't you try ur stall shenanigans on me ;)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-329416001
AllJokesAside don't you try ur stall shenanigans on me ;)
Manaphy is good and sometimes can 6-0 teams ( you need at least 1 way to check or counter this beast ) after 1 tail glow. It can be deadly and normally can force some sacks, but isnt that hard to beat it , blissey can take a few hits ( if doesnt burned ) and most red orb users wall it ( if the manaphy doesnt have hp ground )
Plus manaphy suffers from 4 moves syndrome , meaning it will be always walled by something.
Plus manaphy suffers from 4 moves syndrome , meaning it will be always walled by something.
How is Metagross with Diancite? It gains Magic Bounce for WoW and its stats would be, if I am not mistaken, 80/195/90/155/50/130. With STAB Bullet Punch it has a powerful priority and a decent revenge killer. And a base 130 speed makes ik a decent sweeper with Meteor Mash, EQ, Ice Punch. It does has way less bulk but with the attack stats this high it is more of a late game sweeper.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
Its contact moves are actually slightly weaker than regular Megagross because of Tough Claws, and its bulk goes from excellent to awful. Yes, Earthquake hits harder, but is it worth it?
I don't think Diancite is worth it in general tbh (the only things which it really works for are mixed wallbreakers but a lot of these have better options), but especially not here.
Calcs:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Metagross (Diancite) Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 201-237 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
:( there goes my idea
Assuming Red Orb Togekiss is carrying a Fairy STAB, it's a reliable check to both variants, and indeed the default trifecta of Scald/Energy Ball/Ice Beam is unable to 2HKO Specially Defensive Red Orb Togekiss even at +6.
Blue Orb sets relying on sheer, overwhelming Scald/Surf firepower also show up, and among other points will power through Sablenite Blissey.
Absolite and Sceptilite are its main/best sets, not its only competitively valid sets.
Absolite will outspeed, and without a Tail Glow Energy Ball isn't a OHKO. After a Tail Glow, Absolite Manaphy's Energy Ball/Ice Beam is a 2HKO. Shaky (Sceptilite loses if switching into Absolite Tail Glowing), and also kind of silly to say that Manaphy checks Manaphy.
Sceptilite has a less than 75% chance of being 2HKOed. Bulky Red Orb Victini strikes me as an odd choice, personally, and in any event is shaky since even with HP investment Stealth Rock will instantly turn that into a OHKO.
Except the Blue Orb set.
+6 252 SpA Manaphy (Blue Orb) Scald vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey (Sablenite) in Heavy Rain: 360-424 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy (Blue Orb) Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound (Cameruptite) in Heavy Rain: 325-384 (89.2 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Surf would be a OHKO, of course.
Sceptilite wins.
+3 252 SpA Manaphy (Blue Orb) Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew (Sablenite) in Heavy Rain: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Shaky against Blue Orb.
... if you mean Arceus, you're risking Scald Burns. If you mean the -atespeeds, they all either are risking a Scald Burn for switching directly in or are a Fire type and so risking being KOed on the way in.
+3 252 SpA Manaphy (Blue Orb) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde (Altarianite): 512-604 (121.9 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Why Blue Orb? Because it's the weakest Special Attack boost of the three, and it still OHKOs Altarianite Zygarde with Ice Beam if it has Tail Glow up.
252+ SpA Heatran (Red Orb) Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy (Sceptilite) in Harsh Sunshine: 94-111 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Heatran (Red Orb) Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy (Sceptilite): 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy (Sceptilite) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran (Red Orb): 123-145 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 90.6% chance to 3HKO
Actually a workable check even against Sceptilite, though somewhat shaky when considering Stealth Rock and Heatran's difficulty keeping its health up in general.
+3 252 SpA Manaphy (Sceptilite) Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran (Red Orb): 122-144 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not Sceptilite. +3 Ice Beam has more than a 90% chance of OHKOing, too.
I'll admit ignorance to whether people run bulky attacker Soul Dew Latios or not/it's general viability and give you this one.
I use Sablenite Specially Defensive Zapdos, and it's not remotely reliable a counter against Absolite Manaphy. (+3 Ice Beam and Scald both do a minimum of 76% to Sablenite Specially Defensive Zapdos, meaning if there's Stealth Rock up Zapdos loses outright) Sceptilite wins outright, at most being annoyed by Toxic.
Some of them can switch in on Absolite Manaphy and usually win. Sceptilite beats almost all of those, and aside from bulky Soul Dew Latios Blue Orb beats the remainder. (Bar Red Orb Heatran, which is shaky against Sceptilite and has other problems but is otherwise good)
Actually, most Red Orb users don't wall Manaphy. Red Orb Raikou flat-out loses to Sceptilite Manaphy, no need for HP Ground, Red Orb Hippowdon dies to Energy Ball or Ice Beam, Primal Groudon loses (252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy (Whatever): 274-324 (80.3 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Red Orb Victini loses to Sceptilite, Red Orb Heatran is shaky against Sceptilite, Red Orb Entei loses to Sceptilite, Red Orb Arcanine loses to Sceptilite, Red Orb Azelf loses (252 SpA Azelf (Red Orb) Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy (Sceptilite): 218-258 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO vs +3 252 SpA Manaphy (Sceptilite) Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf (Red Orb): 172-203 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and I guess I can give you Red Orb Volcarona.
Sceptilite Manaphy tends to beat Red Orb checks that expect to beat Absolite, without even changing its moveset. Hidden Power Ground is entirely optional.
---
Again, don't assume Absolite. Part of what makes Manaphy so scary is that making a single mistake can lead to a sweep, and it's extremely difficult to find an answer to both Absolite and Sceptilite, making it very easy to, for instance, have your Electric type Thunderbolt Manaphy and whoops it's now +4 and sweep commences. (Blue Orb announces itself the instant Manaphy hits the field, so the only mistakes regarding it are going to be strategic -if you think your Blissey will wall Manaphy no matter what, and so allow your other Manaphy check to be KOed before ever seeing Manaphy, then the fact that it's Blue Orb can surprise you and kill you, but you'll never have a Pokemon sitting in front of it, trying to decide what you should be doing, and lose the match right there)
They are its best ones though, by far. Blue orb really, really hates how slow it is, and can lose even to nonspecialized red orbs like PDon. In fact, I'd probably have to day that blue orb is mostly outclassed by Keldeo. The lure idea of the other sets is important, though.
He said calm mind- +6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. +1 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Heavy Rain: 271-319 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
No comment here, except that on Scald it does (obviously) still usually win.
Not just shaky- almost guarenteed.
Again, no comment.
*guarenteed 3hko
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 150-177 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 110-130 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 206-243 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Can't come in, but still beats Sceptilite.
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arcanine: 188-222 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to
2HKO
Arcanine's morning sun healed 66% of it's health
I guess it would run out of pp, though.
Also the aforementioned Togekiss,
See above
See above.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
Ghoul King, that's great, but I specifically said that I was discussing Absolite in my post.
Sceptilite Manaphy "only" hits 125 base speed, and this is a lot easier to outspeed - for example, Pidgeotite Gengar can now put you to sleep (obviously it doesn't want to switch in, but at +0 it can if it wants). There were a bunch of things I simply skipped in my post because while they could switch in, they couldn't reach 140 base speed and were promptly OHKO'd at +3 (and thus useless). It also now dies painfully to Pixispeed.
Blue orb is even slower and has a different set of checks - its coverage moves are weaker than Absolite and it's really a lure that announces itself, and so fails at being a lure. I'll give you that it does better against stall, but with teams seemingly so offensive I wonder whether that's relevant given that Manaphy already does a number on stall.
The sometimes weird EV spreads in my post are there for the same reason that you run certain benchmarks on pokes in standard - Manaphy is a metagame-defining mon so you need to adapt to it. In a vacuum, Victini (for example) wants to run a fast hard-hitting set because its bulk isn't fantastic and it'd rather be killing things. But IF you want to use it as a Manaphy check, THEN you need to hit certain benchmarks.
I disregarded rocks because it's a lot harder to keep rocks up in this meta, what with everything potentially being a "Mega-Sableye". You either need Mold Breaker or scouting to get hazards up in the first place, and that doesn't even account for Defog and Scrappy Rapid Spin courtesy of Lopunnite (though I must question why you'd use such a good stone for that)
As for different sets being checked by different things - who would've thought?
There doesn't need to be one single mon that checks every single Manaphy set (although CM Sablenite Blissey arguably can). Yes, if you bring your electric-type in against Manaphy expecting Absolite and it's Sceptilite, you probably lose a mon, but the same thing happens in standard, bringing a Ferro in on M-Alt expecting DDance, only to get smashed by the special set's Fire Blast.
...I'm wondering why no-one's tried Diancite Manaphy yet. Gives bigger boosts than Absolite with the same ability, and is now even harder to wall/outspeed. Sure, the loss of bulk is a pain and probably means that it's not worth it, but paired with an -atespeed counter or two such as Blue Orb Skarm, and it could be pretty damn nasty.
Sceptilite Manaphy "only" hits 125 base speed, and this is a lot easier to outspeed - for example, Pidgeotite Gengar can now put you to sleep (obviously it doesn't want to switch in, but at +0 it can if it wants). There were a bunch of things I simply skipped in my post because while they could switch in, they couldn't reach 140 base speed and were promptly OHKO'd at +3 (and thus useless). It also now dies painfully to Pixispeed.
Blue orb is even slower and has a different set of checks - its coverage moves are weaker than Absolite and it's really a lure that announces itself, and so fails at being a lure. I'll give you that it does better against stall, but with teams seemingly so offensive I wonder whether that's relevant given that Manaphy already does a number on stall.
The sometimes weird EV spreads in my post are there for the same reason that you run certain benchmarks on pokes in standard - Manaphy is a metagame-defining mon so you need to adapt to it. In a vacuum, Victini (for example) wants to run a fast hard-hitting set because its bulk isn't fantastic and it'd rather be killing things. But IF you want to use it as a Manaphy check, THEN you need to hit certain benchmarks.
I disregarded rocks because it's a lot harder to keep rocks up in this meta, what with everything potentially being a "Mega-Sableye". You either need Mold Breaker or scouting to get hazards up in the first place, and that doesn't even account for Defog and Scrappy Rapid Spin courtesy of Lopunnite (though I must question why you'd use such a good stone for that)
As for different sets being checked by different things - who would've thought?
There doesn't need to be one single mon that checks every single Manaphy set (although CM Sablenite Blissey arguably can). Yes, if you bring your electric-type in against Manaphy expecting Absolite and it's Sceptilite, you probably lose a mon, but the same thing happens in standard, bringing a Ferro in on M-Alt expecting DDance, only to get smashed by the special set's Fire Blast.
...I'm wondering why no-one's tried Diancite Manaphy yet. Gives bigger boosts than Absolite with the same ability, and is now even harder to wall/outspeed. Sure, the loss of bulk is a pain and probably means that it's not worth it, but paired with an -atespeed counter or two such as Blue Orb Skarm, and it could be pretty damn nasty.
So, time for the temporary ban of Manaphy.
Tagging The Immortal.
We'll see how people feel about the Manaphy-less meta in five days.
Getting Rocks up isn't necessarily as hard as you're saying. If you're faced with a Red Orb or Blue Orb Pokemon, you know it's not Magic Bounce. If you're faced with anything that's Mega Evolved and doesn't have Magic Bounce and nothing in the back that has Mega Evolved has Magic Bounce, you know you can get Stealth Rock up. There's an early-game phase where, barring the opposition outright leading with their Magic Bouncer, you can be fairly confident of getting Stealth Rock up. Most Magic Bouncers make poor leads -if you lead with Blissey, you're probably sacrificing early game momentum, while Diancite whatever is so painfully fragile that it's risky to lead with it. Furthermore, Mold Breaker leads are gaining in popularity -I'm suddenly seeing a fair amount of Ampharosite Jirachi, for whatever reason- and laugh at the Magic Bouncers.
Then, of course, there's the possibility of bouncing the enemy's Stealth Rock to get Stealth Rock up... which Absolite Manaphy can totally do itself, by the way, and since it's a stallbreaker it often likes to switch into many of the most popular Stealth Rockers in the first place.
Your comparison to Mega Altaria runs into the problem that if Ferrothorn switches into Mega Altaria and dies to Fire Blast, Mega Altaria itself isn't liable to then sweep the team. (And in fact if it's committed to Special, its capacity for sweeping is very low) It also runs into the problem that Mega Altaria is sacrificing a moveslot on this -Manaphy can beat a depressing number of things with the same near-universally effective moveset by just changing Mega Stone.
Picking up vulnerability to -atespeed is also a misleading point. Yes, Sceptilite Manaphy is easier to revenge with -atespeed than Absolite, but -atespeed is unable to perform a manual switch into it safely. If bringing in your counter demands you sacrifice something every time you want to switch into the thing you're countering (Which Manaphy tends to lead to if you haven't basically dedicated your team to countering it), it's not really a counter.
Sceptilite sacrificing Speed is also fairly minor. Pidgeotite Gengar can only beat it if it has already Mega Evolved, and it's hard to get Gengar in and Mega Evolved. If it takes Protect to ensure it beats Manaphy's Speed, it has to give up something vital, be it a STAB, Focus Blast, or Hypnosis. The latter two being the primary benefits of even running Pidgeotite, while sacrificing Sludge Wave/Bomb cripples its ability to check Altarianite Extreme Speeders and also makes it that little bit less able to take on Sablenite Blissey. Fishing for Poison via Sludge Bomb can potentially let it beat many Sablenite Blissey builds, and sacrificing Shadow Ball shouldn't even need to be explained for why it's bad.
The same basic points apply to most Speed-based checks to Manaphy, including the ones that beat Sceptilite but not Absolite. The fastest things are often fragile and cannot switch directly into Manaphy and their fragility often means they can be kept from coming in and Mega Evolved successfully more-or-less indefinitely, even with U-Turn support and the like. A fair portion of the fastest stuff isn't even all that viable.
---
I'll also add that, personal experience-wise, Manaphy is the single most common Pokemon for me to see on teams, above even Entei and Zygarde collectively, even though I've been told people feel -atespeed is overly dominating of the meta. Not any kind of "proof" of brokenness, of course, but comment-worthy.
Tagging The Immortal.
We'll see how people feel about the Manaphy-less meta in five days.
Fair enough, barring crits and/or well-timed Burns of course. I'm still not entirely used to Calm Mind Blissey's commonality in MnM.
Huh, I hadn't noticed Blue Orb provides Special Defense. Still, Ferrothorn is a shaky check, even against Absolite, because switching in is risking the Burn on Scald. Less shaky than I'd thought, but still shaky.
I'm not sure why you think Blue Orb Manaphy loses to Primal Groudon. I mean, yes, if Primal Groudon wins the predict and comes in on a Scald or, really, anything other than a Tail Glow, it wins, but if it comes in on a Tail Glow it still loses, albeit it wipes Blue Orb Manaphy's weather, forcing a switch if it wants it back.
Actually, I saw Diancite Manaphy a lot first time MnM was OMotM. It lost popularity quickly, probably in no small part because the loss in bulk cripples its ability to actually set up and sweep. (Smarter players set up and then Mega-ed, but this opens the way to stuff like Gengar switching directly in and then KOing on the Mega Evolution turn) Honestly, a lot of Diancite builds I've seen were basically fads -for a time I'd see a specific 'mon with Diancite a lot, and then it would be replaced with some less vulnerable Mega Stone or Stones.
Getting Rocks up isn't necessarily as hard as you're saying. If you're faced with a Red Orb or Blue Orb Pokemon, you know it's not Magic Bounce. If you're faced with anything that's Mega Evolved and doesn't have Magic Bounce and nothing in the back that has Mega Evolved has Magic Bounce, you know you can get Stealth Rock up. There's an early-game phase where, barring the opposition outright leading with their Magic Bouncer, you can be fairly confident of getting Stealth Rock up. Most Magic Bouncers make poor leads -if you lead with Blissey, you're probably sacrificing early game momentum, while Diancite whatever is so painfully fragile that it's risky to lead with it. Furthermore, Mold Breaker leads are gaining in popularity -I'm suddenly seeing a fair amount of Ampharosite Jirachi, for whatever reason- and laugh at the Magic Bouncers.
Then, of course, there's the possibility of bouncing the enemy's Stealth Rock to get Stealth Rock up... which Absolite Manaphy can totally do itself, by the way, and since it's a stallbreaker it often likes to switch into many of the most popular Stealth Rockers in the first place.
Your comparison to Mega Altaria runs into the problem that if Ferrothorn switches into Mega Altaria and dies to Fire Blast, Mega Altaria itself isn't liable to then sweep the team. (And in fact if it's committed to Special, its capacity for sweeping is very low) It also runs into the problem that Mega Altaria is sacrificing a moveslot on this -Manaphy can beat a depressing number of things with the same near-universally effective moveset by just changing Mega Stone.
Picking up vulnerability to -atespeed is also a misleading point. Yes, Sceptilite Manaphy is easier to revenge with -atespeed than Absolite, but -atespeed is unable to perform a manual switch into it safely. If bringing in your counter demands you sacrifice something every time you want to switch into the thing you're countering (Which Manaphy tends to lead to if you haven't basically dedicated your team to countering it), it's not really a counter.
Sceptilite sacrificing Speed is also fairly minor. Pidgeotite Gengar can only beat it if it has already Mega Evolved, and it's hard to get Gengar in and Mega Evolved. If it takes Protect to ensure it beats Manaphy's Speed, it has to give up something vital, be it a STAB, Focus Blast, or Hypnosis. The latter two being the primary benefits of even running Pidgeotite, while sacrificing Sludge Wave/Bomb cripples its ability to check Altarianite Extreme Speeders and also makes it that little bit less able to take on Sablenite Blissey. Fishing for Poison via Sludge Bomb can potentially let it beat many Sablenite Blissey builds, and sacrificing Shadow Ball shouldn't even need to be explained for why it's bad.
The same basic points apply to most Speed-based checks to Manaphy, including the ones that beat Sceptilite but not Absolite. The fastest things are often fragile and cannot switch directly into Manaphy and their fragility often means they can be kept from coming in and Mega Evolved successfully more-or-less indefinitely, even with U-Turn support and the like. A fair portion of the fastest stuff isn't even all that viable.
---
I'll also add that, personal experience-wise, Manaphy is the single most common Pokemon for me to see on teams, above even Entei and Zygarde collectively, even though I've been told people feel -atespeed is overly dominating of the meta. Not any kind of "proof" of brokenness, of course, but comment-worthy.
There's a very thin line in terms of ranking, there's this thin, thin blue line, often reserved for 2-3 pokemon per metagame. This line separates Ubers from OU. The line is the S rank, it's often viewed with controversy because it splits the community, some people will think any S rank pokemon is broken, others believe they are merely metagame defining.
In my opinion, a good example for a metagame defining pokemon is Clefable in OU. It's far to diverse and too good at its roles to work to be bunched together with A+ ranks. This doesn't mean that Clefable, let us say Calm mind set, isn't necessarily better than Weavile all out attackers set, but the accumulated roles of Clefables sets/roles make it a defining pokemon where you have to account for all of its sets whilst team building. But it isn't unbeatable... It's counters, it doesn't hit very hard right of the bat nor its it particularly hard to breakthrough with neutral attacks because of the lack of bulk.
A comparison in Mix and Mega would be Primal Groudon/Zygarde these pokemon are very, very effective in either one or more roles. But it's not broken... You have counters, and it's difficult for these pokemon to get past their counters. Both Primal Groudon and Zygarde struggle to get past a plethora of mons, such as Skarmory Blue orb or Ferrothorn. And to beat these pokemon you have to choose less viable move options. And let us be real sin(pi) if one pokemon quite literally forces otherwise viable pokemon to diminish their viability versus 99% of the metagame it's unhealthy.
Manaphy lacks consistent checks, and it does not have to diminish its own viability to beat said checks. Ancient power, Grass knot, Shadow ball, HP ground, HP fire, Ice beam, Energy ball, psychic, Scald, Surf, Calm mind & Absolite/Sceptilite. But it's fine, we'll see how the Metagame looks in a couple days. I urge all of you to experiment in this time to see the true potential of the metagame <3
In my opinion, a good example for a metagame defining pokemon is Clefable in OU. It's far to diverse and too good at its roles to work to be bunched together with A+ ranks. This doesn't mean that Clefable, let us say Calm mind set, isn't necessarily better than Weavile all out attackers set, but the accumulated roles of Clefables sets/roles make it a defining pokemon where you have to account for all of its sets whilst team building. But it isn't unbeatable... It's counters, it doesn't hit very hard right of the bat nor its it particularly hard to breakthrough with neutral attacks because of the lack of bulk.
A comparison in Mix and Mega would be Primal Groudon/Zygarde these pokemon are very, very effective in either one or more roles. But it's not broken... You have counters, and it's difficult for these pokemon to get past their counters. Both Primal Groudon and Zygarde struggle to get past a plethora of mons, such as Skarmory Blue orb or Ferrothorn. And to beat these pokemon you have to choose less viable move options. And let us be real sin(pi) if one pokemon quite literally forces otherwise viable pokemon to diminish their viability versus 99% of the metagame it's unhealthy.
Manaphy lacks consistent checks, and it does not have to diminish its own viability to beat said checks. Ancient power, Grass knot, Shadow ball, HP ground, HP fire, Ice beam, Energy ball, psychic, Scald, Surf, Calm mind & Absolite/Sceptilite. But it's fine, we'll see how the Metagame looks in a couple days. I urge all of you to experiment in this time to see the true potential of the metagame <3
I understand and agree with a lot of what you said, but there are a few points I'd like to call into question.
1. Diminishing viability is what having a mon is all about. If a pokemon could be dealt with by common mons without them changing their set, then unless it fills some huge need your team possesses, you shouldn't be running it.
2. Manaphy does, in fact, have consistant checks- and even counters. Red orb Raikou, for instance, beats any set bar hp ground. Red orb Togekiss can beat nearly any set Manaohy even thinks of running, while red orb/cm Sablenite Blissey will always win. Heck, if you are desperate you can always run SpecDef Clefable- that hardwalls ever Manaphy set ever bar blue orb, which only wins because rain cripples moonlight.
You do have some good arguments, however- lets see how it turns out.
Manaphy loses to pdon with blue orb because pdon gets dragon tail/roar. If Manaphy tries to tail glow, it can get phazed, if it tries to attack unboosted it dies. Further, Pdon can use twave to cripple it for the rest of the match bar aromatherapy (which isn't really run on offensive teams)
While this is a different point, I find rocks harder to get up for a different reason. In MnM, nearly anything can be a danger. There are far too many mons you just cant afford to give that setup turn, be they Manaphy, Keldeo, Zygarde, etc. That sr turn is also a turn for the opponent to mega, get a free attack off, or just be a royal pain in the neck.
This isn't exactly relevant to the Manaphy ban, But I'd wager the reason people use Ampharosite Jirachi is that it is a bulky mold breaker steal rocker ALA mew- without that terrible typing.
Yes, Manaphy requires you sack something to bring in atespeed, but most things in the meta can do at least 30% to Manaphy, or live 1 boosted hit and do even more. After it gets down to about 60% or so, it's really really hard to find places to setup. It isn't the end of the world, but it might be the end of Manaphy.
Of course the fastest things aren't all viable, but enough of them are. While this is biased because I have never struggled with Manaphy bar the first time AJA roflstomped me, it seems as though Manaphy is simply our equivalent of XY Geoxern.
Who knows, however. Lets see how the meta looks without Manaphy.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
I don't see why Ghoul King asked for the thoughts from the community on a suspect, had almost everybody who posted disagree with it, and then go through with it anyways. Regardless, this suspect seems to be based on what the council wants, if it's what you guys want then don't tell us we get the decisions when we don't. It's completely fine for the council to make suspect decisions, but the deception has left a sour taste in my mouth.
Technically, If we count people who actually arguements rather than posting 1 liners, the split was pretty even.
In fact...
I got nothing.
Ghoul King did you mean ban Manaphy or ban Manaphy from holding a stone
Ghoul doesn't wake up before a couple of hours, but I'd assume it would make zero difference as it almost reduces Manaphies Viability too zero, so banning it entirely seems like a good option to see how the metagame adapts
I brought it up, so I'll explain it. The reasoning for doing this is... Well, we can't decide on the ban. It's not something the council is sure on, because it's hard to gauge how the metagame would look - if it would be healthier not. This is a good way to have a look without making any rash decisions.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-329967204
I should not have won this match.
Also, Mega Meloetta is still glitched. Or is glitched again. She won't forme change from Relic Song after Mega Evolving (either that or it was prevented by Sheer Force, since I was using Cameruptite when I had an Aria-based Mega and actually tested that), but the stats are still Aria-based rather than Pirouette-based when you Mega while in Pirouette Forme.
I should not have won this match.
Also, Mega Meloetta is still glitched. Or is glitched again. She won't forme change from Relic Song after Mega Evolving (either that or it was prevented by Sheer Force, since I was using Cameruptite when I had an Aria-based Mega and actually tested that), but the stats are still Aria-based rather than Pirouette-based when you Mega while in Pirouette Forme.
As I've been informed you would prefer total bans rather than Mega Stone-access banning, yes, ban it per se.
The temp ban is part of gathering input from the community, it's not ignoring the input from the community. Compare and contrast, see how people feel about the meta with Manaphy barred Mega Stones and if that affects their opinion one way or another.
If the community consensus at the end is that Manaphy is fine, Manaphy is unbanned and no proper Suspect occurs. For that matter, we're going to unban it at the end regardless.
This isn't intended as the tyranny of the Council, and I apologize if it comes across that way.
Not remotely everything, and Manaphy isn't necessarily coming in on something that's fresh, and indeed usually isn't. Manaphy is a lot more likely to come in on something that can't do much of anything to it or come in on something that it can currently one-shot, at which point it comes down to prediction, overall favoring Manaphy -if it "wins" the predict it lands a free KO or it sets up, and if it "loses" the predict its absolute worst case is that it took a hit from the thing in front of it while setting up, which is bad but not that bad for it.
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Ghoul King , do you think I could get a copy of your Heatran set? Kinda want to try it out
Heatran @ Ampharosite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Magma Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
The original impetus for it was to Magma Storm Blissey to trap them while Toxic killed them. Honestly, Lava Plume would probably be the smarter Move on it, because Magma Storm rarely lets me trap and kill Blissey before it Seismic Tosses Heatran to death, even if I don't miss, but I haven't gotten around to changing it.
The rest of the set puts in work, though.
In fact, it works so well I only just discovered I never set EVS! Whoops.
Man, now I can't wait to see how it works when I haven't crippled it with derp.
Having played around in the meta before and after Manaphy, I personally barely see a difference. I rarely felt any more threatened by Absolite Manaphy than any other decent -ate neutral/resistant mon, like Nasty Plot Thundurus (any usable mega stone) or SD Pinsirite Cobalion, and I don't think I ever felt threatened by Sceptilite. The meta just seems so satured with Espeeders that I'm unsure of calling a mon firing off an 80 BP stab move from 140 special attack overwhelming, even at +3. It is, in fact, a little weaker than most set-up sweepers even at +3 because it's just not that strong unboosted in the first place. I know it has a big advantage over a lot of things in that it has several mostly unseen coverage moves, and, importantly, sets up on essentially anything intending to be an Atespeed check (or seriously threatens it), but I think this is more suggestive of the fact that Atespeeds are insanely strong and essentially unmanageable than it is that Manaphy itself is unmanageable. On some level, I'm a little confused why things like Pidgeotite Keldeo (after a CM, it's Hydro Pump is stronger than +3 Manaphy scald) and Nasty Plot Thundurus aren't getting the same attention as Keldeo since they also seriously punish the opponent for daring to bring the kind of Blue Orb checks that are almost necessary if you don't want to lose to a triple/quadruple espeed team, but I understand Manaphy's excellent bulk is what's pushing it over the top. I've never seen Blue Orb Manaphy at all, and it sounds like a bad gimmick. Manaphy, before mega evolving, it also somewhat slow
Meanwhile, I've found that a nice way to take advantage of current metagame trends is to use bulky set up sweepers that lure common atespeed checks alongside Atespeeders - My favorites being Lopunnite Mew and Jirachi (Pup+Drain Punch is really lethal to a lot of teams), and SD Salamencite Landorus. I think Jirachi is an especially underrated threat, as no one really knows what it can do, so you can use that momentum to grab a key kill, get rocks out, pivot, etc. I'm also really liking Absolite Starmie as a sort of offensive glue mon, 155 speed is amazing and really helps with it's otherwise subpar everything, even if it does lose to a ton of stuff. The only other offensive spinner I've had "work" was Diancite Excadrill, which *had* to run protect.
Meanwhile, I've found that a nice way to take advantage of current metagame trends is to use bulky set up sweepers that lure common atespeed checks alongside Atespeeders - My favorites being Lopunnite Mew and Jirachi (Pup+Drain Punch is really lethal to a lot of teams), and SD Salamencite Landorus. I think Jirachi is an especially underrated threat, as no one really knows what it can do, so you can use that momentum to grab a key kill, get rocks out, pivot, etc. I'm also really liking Absolite Starmie as a sort of offensive glue mon, 155 speed is amazing and really helps with it's otherwise subpar everything, even if it does lose to a ton of stuff. The only other offensive spinner I've had "work" was Diancite Excadrill, which *had* to run protect.
Tagging Ghoul King because Mega Meloetta still doesn't work. May as well tag The Immortal while I'm at it.
Cameruptite's Sheer Force prevents Relic Song from causing forme change, but other than that it can still forme change freely while Mega Evolved. (Which removes its mega stats.) And it always reverts to Aria Forme upon Mega Evolving, as well.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-330117136
And no, it's not just a visual bug.
Cameruptite's Sheer Force prevents Relic Song from causing forme change, but other than that it can still forme change freely while Mega Evolved. (Which removes its mega stats.) And it always reverts to Aria Forme upon Mega Evolving, as well.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-330117136
And no, it's not just a visual bug.