np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned

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Upon looking further into this, I can see that Hoopa-U is probably not the best thing in the world for OU. Hoopa-U is a pokemon that, by itself, makes an entire playstyle less viable. Is OU gonna become a Stall-filled metagame with hoopa-U gone? No! You still have great wallbreakers that can't just stomp all over stall- They actually need a little support, such as Victini and Kyu-B, to get stuff done. One thing that I've noted is that Hoopa-U's physical frailty is pretty overblown. Yes, it's bad, but it's not the caliber of wet-paper mons like Alakazam and Mega Beedrill. Stall will, almost unconditionally, lose to Hoopa-U, unless they have a trapper. Most stall teams now do include a trapper thanks to Hoopa-U's Influence. It's incredibly easy to go 1 for 1 with this thing, even against the fastest and most offensive of teams. Latios, most electrics, Keldeo, hell, even weaker physical stuff like talonflame.

It honestly doesn't make too much of a diff to me since I play offense for the most part, but I definitely sympathize with players of stall and other fat builds. Ban.
 
Just wanna point out that one of the more commonly thrown out counter-arguments I've seen even before this suspect test, "Why buff stall," is a spectacular show of ignorance. Stall already has enough problems performing well, and even with Hoopa gone, it won't be the reigning playstyle, nor strong enough to warrant the metagame having to change tremendously. That said, piggybacking on Srn's post, Hoopa does its intended job with only a single set, and once you throw the other possibilities in the mix, Hoopa becomes literally impossible to check without spot-on plays and scouting. Should be common knowledge that if a mon's presence alone can force most opposing teams into a corner, it's toxic to the tier it's in.

Let's ban this fucker so Pangoro has no competition
 

Martin

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I'm actially crying with happiness right now...

Hoopa-U is actually stupid. Between its restrictiveness to all playstyles barring HO, its insane versatility and its lack of actual switch-ins allowing it to guarantee a kill every game unless played like utter crap, this has been inevitable ever since Specs was discovered. Not gonna make a big post cause ipad, but just saying that I support this 100% and can't wait to be able to use Pursuitless balance again without being annihilated by this thing.
 
Hoopa-U is definitely one terryfing wallbreaker but it has his weaknes.

Can't switch in psychical attacks and specs keldeo secret sword, mega gardevoir hyper voice and maybe some others.

Loses to most priority mons like azu, breloom, bisharp, scizor.

Choice (unless choice band hyperspace fury) variants can be scouted via protect. Yeah, that move can be useful and protect is good against every choice mon, not only hoopa.

Can be pursuit trapped and most of trapers deal huge damage.

As we can see, there are a lot of weakness. I am aware that it might be hard to scout for hoopa set. I know that moment when you have to decide which mon sack is not easy.

I'm neutral, but leading to "do not ban".

Edited: my bad on scouting with protect.
 
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Hoopa-U is definitely one terryfing wallbreaker but it has his weaknes.

Can't switch in psychical attacks and specs keldeo secret sword, mega gardevoir hyper voice and maybe some others.

Loses to most priority mons like azu, breloom, bisharp, scizor.

Choice variants can be scouted via protect. Yeah, that move can be useful and protect is good against every choice mon, not only hoopa.

Can be pursuit trapped and most of trapers deal huge damage.

As we can see, there are a lot of weakness. I am aware that it might be hard to scout for hoopa set. I know that moment when you have to decide which mon sack is not easy.

I'm neutral, but leading to "do not ban".
you can't really scout will protect because hyperspace will blow you back
 
I never had a problem with Hoopa-U. Its easy to beat. Also I have no idea what people are talking about when they say it makes stall unviable. The number 1 ranked OU player uses stall. And the higher you go up the OU ladder the more stall you see. It's very clearly the most effective playstyle right now and people want to make it even stronger by banning Hoopa-U? I say definitely do not ban.
 
hoopa's hella bonkers tbh.

the pursuit and hazard argument goin around is a bit peculiar. not really sure if i need to point out the elephant in the room, but hoopa ain't even fall over to a single pursuit on the switchout vs any pursuit user (cb weavile + ttar notwithstanding) and it ohkos or 2hkos any mon that wanna fuck wit it pursuit-wise anyway given u have a good set. vs hoopa's worst matchup in offense, u still have hella opportunities abuse some shit and that's been mentioned several times itt. p2's post was a bit strange since it mentioned not being able to a tank a draco or hydro with sand and spikes... what kinda ape is ever gonna do that in his right mind tbh. unless it's badabing b/c that dude on a whole other dimension but ehh. hoopa teams have access to team support just as much as any other team.

contrived + hypothetical game states aside, hoopa just has so many tools in its toolbox to, as bkc would so eloquently proclaim in the midst of battalharing, bop :] the opposing squad. specs is for sure the go-to dude in a more smogon tour or ladder scenario, but i bat w/ trepidation if i'm against that dude in a more isolated, bo1 setting. tour games like spl really demonstrate how ferocious the dude can be. take the ebelt set pdc posted in that shitty ass creative sets thread as an example of how hoopa can rly have some dangerous versatility. one of the germans repped a fucking subpunch set to great lengths in olt, and the dude even has access to nasty plot, subsalac, and myriad other Techs that are, simply put, freaking scary. despite the low sample size, i would argue that the 67% win rate out of 30 games isn't just an anomaly. if you take notice to the smogon tour thread, hoopa also has >50% win rate, and this is with all the average joes reppin it.

my idiosyncratic definition of unhealthy is that a certain strategy or pokemon gives a lesser skilled player distinctly more of a return compared to a better player (opposed to strategies which have more of a skill variable). baton pass is a perfect example of this: any dumbo could toss that ish out on the ladder and destroy bkc 6-0 as he's frothing at the mouth in rage. bad example b/c not hard, but u catch my drift. randomdude92 could pilot standard bp far more succesfully than a balance which requires finesse. to this extent, hoopa is certainly (double negative for effect) not unhealthy. i would argue that hoopa definitely is a high skilling ceiling pokemon. take tdk's spl game where it pressured balance and killed like 4 pkmn or something. this is a pokemon which works best with smart switches, proper teambuilding, ability to feign sets, etc. but, at the highest level of play, hoopa's hotter than hades tbh. heatah fajita ain't got shit hehe bwoi. this may explain the trends in the stats mentioned previously.

to reiterate: hoopa gives off an immense amount of pressure to slower teams which still having a decent offensive matchup. its checks and counters are relatively scarce, and it can often 1 for 1 at worst. pursuit is a pretty poor answer and hazards can be on both sides... hoopa requires finesse but can smash some ass wit it, and it has an extremely huge amount of tools in its toolbox to really tear up the metagame. lastly, hoopa constrains teambuilding in a negative light.

i'll expand on my last point though since p2 was poppin off that tyranitar on every team isn't bad..

centralization is healthy if and only if a few parameters are met. if you take a look at the most extreme of centralized metagames (gsc ou, bw1 ubers, oras ubers), you will notice that the centralized pokemon provide extreme offensive AND defensive synergy. the op's of snorlax, kyogre, and primal groudon provide immediate offensive power and exceptional defensive synergy which means that a metagame centered around them will have a sense of balance. a metagame centered around a pokemon with minimal defensive synergy.. kinda sucks. oras is already at the state where a lot of dudes like heist have explicitly stated that you /have to build reactively to achieve/. now this is a bit of hyperbole, if you take a glance at a lot of abr's/tdk's/whomever's spl builds, they follow a lot of similar trends and paradigms partially b/c of this. a metagame centered around hoopa-u creates a paradox tbh. it's too good to use but often too strong not to use; its restrictions on the builder limit your options while still wanting yourself to use it in many cases. this just perpetuates an already prevalent matchup issue and makes games more decided before turn 0. not cool in my opinion.

the meta will be far more playable with a ban.
 
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Ehh...Idk. Hoopa never seemed ban worthy to me, although I can see why people would consider it to be. The fact that it can destroy balance and stall is a good reason why people don't run these archetypes as much. I do think that its weaknesses are really exploitable and therefore I am a little curious about this suspect. But that is just my opinion, I do want to see how this turns out, should be interesting.
 
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AM

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I can play in a meta with Hoopa-U in it I just want to make this clear before someone goes off in a reply. I assure you though it sucks and certain battle scenarios like sacking your mon to pursuit it or those Torn-T U-Turn games v Hoopa-U on both sides of the field are pretty lame and makes you question where any sort of real game plan is taking place. Lame from the perspective there's not specifically anything being rewarded for playing with some intelligence or at least the idea of it when moves are fired off like Specs Dark Pulse or Band Fury with no worries or enormous risk / reward mind-games. The opportunity cost is so out of whack on both sides of the spectrum because it (Hoopa-U) can provide everything while not doing so much but at the same time an enormous constraining force from a teambuilder and practical perspective.

That's my summarized thought process on Hoopa-U right now. Also if you havent noticed the OU mod and OU council will be moderating this thread to delete nonsense like the past 10+ or so comments so far so it would be nice, regardless of your stance, if you had some sort of informed opinion. It can be as simple as mine just don't make yourself have a deleted post. That's all.
 
AM i understand what ur saying but u are insinuating that the burden of proof is on the ppl trying to maintain the status quo. u should reword ur post because ppl are gonna eat pro ban ppl up otherwise :-) it's not what u intended.

AM Edit: Sort of did that
 
I'm going copy and paste an argument I made about hoopa from another thread.

True that it's incredibly strong and pressures a lot of bulky and stall teams, but it's also pressured a lot as well, not wanting to switch into many things. Even with bulky and stall teams you risk being statused. And not to mention it's extremely weak to priority users such as t-flame, scizor, mega lop and mega cham and offense in general because even if it switches into a special move, it will still take a good chunk of damage. Also the defense drop on hyperspace fury(which the sets that have these are the best ones imo) makes it weaker to be pursuit trapped. I feel like this is a hit or miss pokemon. It's either going to do destroy teams or do nothing or next to nothing.

I've played with pokemon many times and most of the time, I found it doing barely anything at all except for against stall. Smogon caters way to much towards balance and bulkier teams.

I say no ban.
 
For me, this is one of those weird occasions when I really did not believe that Hoopa was in anyway broken, despite using a variety of teams and playstyles. No matter what, I find myself having an answer to every set on pretty much every playstyle, and then the specs set became popular. Suddenly, I found Hoopa to actually becom slightly over centralising, with it appearing on every other team, and the majority of teams I've built almost becoming invalid overnight.

Beforehand, Hoopa was almost always physically based, and wasn't too difficult to answer (even though stall struggled, but was struggling anyway after the Goth ban). However, this specs set, as CBB aptly put, has pushed Hoopa over the edge for me, he plays very similar to Zard; when you see it come onto the screen, its so difficult to wall because the guessing game involved means that if you're wrong, you are almost guaranteed to lose a mon. Even when guessing right, you'd better hope it isn't specs, cause then whatever 'switch in' you provide, is gonna be gone the next time it switches in.

I would even argue that the 50/50s involved are parallel to the ones involved with Aegislash, one wrong guess and suddenly you're being swept by whichever sweeper its paired with. Having played a lot of balance and semi stall recently, I've found myself clicking x ten times in due to hoopa coming in on most mons and then taking out half my team while I attempt to do enough damage to remove it. Even playing HO and BO, Hoopa's naturally decent bulk means that it can stomach one hit and take one mon out, knowing that nothing on offence has the bulk to take a hit. In addition, the scarf set can tear unprepared offensive teams apart, with its naturally high stats and move base powers making it able to sweep frailer teams with relative ease.

Overall, despite Hoopa not having been that threatening throughout its time in the OU metagame, this specs set has been the final point for me. What are you genuinely stopping that thing with? It's parallel to the Greninja ban, in which it was considered too powerful because it could 2HKO everything (bar like Porygon2) depending on which set it was running, and its the same with Hoopa, except, the specs set actually does 2HKO everything. And even if you do bring in you're specially bulkiest mon to challenge Hoopa, either, you've already lost it because it was actually physical, or you've been smashed with a psyshock. The likes of Mandibuzz and Klefki (originally honorably mentioned as the only viable mons capable of mostly countering Hoopa), are beaten/crippled with Specs TBolt, or Banded Fire Punch respetively; not to mention neither of them appreciating being tricked into a choice item.

Yes, Hoopa is beatable, Tornadus/Scarf Jirachi/Scarf Lando/Scizor are everywhere and running U-turn, Hoopa will go down to that, not to mention the prevalence of pursuit trapping on teams, Ttar mainly, but I've seen a lot more of pursuit Scizor and Bisharp, almost primarly for Hoopa. However, Hoopa generally needs to have taken damage to be pursuit trapped, especially from support/scarfed Ttar, and Hoopa has the coverage moves to eliminate these trappers/scarfers as none of them really want to switch in. Therefore, I feel that the metagame was much more enjoyable before the fear of running teams with low base speeds, as we didn't have to sack a mon everytime a Hoopa team appears pretty much from the get go, as most people will lead their mon who can beat Hoopa, and a decent opponent will be able to counter that.

As a result of this, Hoopa ruins the chances of anyone wanting to play anything that's not BO or HO, which also are not safe and therefore think we'd have a much more enjoyable and freer metagame, were we to agree to Ban Hoopa-Unbound from OU.
 

bludz

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Un-unban Hoopa-Unbanned

There have been other Pokemon in the tier that have not been deemed broken despite having no counters. Kyurem-Black is such a pokemon: but please understand that I do not intend to compare Hoopa and Kyu-B outside of that one characteristic - having no counters - because they are very different pokemon. Realistically the best answers to LO Kyu-B are things like Chansey, Mew, Cress, Clef, and Mega Scizor. However the latter 2 can be defeated by coverage moves and the former 3 get blown back by CB Outrage. The limiting factor for Kyu-B is moveslot and sets: while it has no true counters, each of its individual sets do.

This is what separates Hoopa-Unbound - its Specs set alone has no counters. There literally is not a safe switch-in for Choice Specs Hoopa, whatsoever. A few things can switch into one attack and scare it out, but that's about as far as it goes. The prediction arguments go both ways meaning Hoopa is capable of getting a kill almost every single time it enters the battlefield.

Now I'd like to address some anti-ban arguments.

1. It has almost no defensive synergy/utility

Mostly true, but it also only has 2 weaknesses, meaning it checks most special attackers in the tier pretty well. Plus, with so many Volt-Turn and pivot options to utilize, it doesn't ever have to come in on a hit and can find plenty of nice matchups to switch in on. It's funny because while Hoopa is checked pretty hard by Torn-T, this isn't really that bad for it in the grand scheme of things. It promotes the usage of Rotom-W to check Torn, which gives Hoopa more free switch-ins from Volt Switch and also Hoopa obliterates opposing Rotom-Ws lol. I mean in short Hoopa's making Volt-Turn bulky offense more viable both because it can be used to check opposing Hoopas and because you can get your own Hoopa in easily. The lack of defensive utility is kinda moot when it still checks the hell out of special attackers like Starmie and Alakazam anyway. Plus it's not being OHKO'd from full HP by most things - it's frail but it doesn't die to every physical attack ever.

2. It's pursuit bait

Yeah, but no Pursuit user can switch into it safely at all. This means it can be Pursuited after getting a kill, which means it already did its job. Furthermore, if you do run one of those wonky Expert Belt or Dread Plate sets, Tyranitar is gonna get blown back when it tries to Pursuit you. While Pursuit is something a Hoopa user has to consider before freely spamming Dark STAB, it's still not a realistic deterrent to actually prevent it from getting KOs. If a pokemon is averaging more than 1 kill per game, something is wrong. The argument that you can prevent it from achieving multiple KOs per game by Pursuit trapping it doesn't mean it isn't broken.

Final thing is that most of these caveats realistically apply to offensive teams. Any kind of balance or stall is having at least one member completely blown away which can be really problematic for the integrity of the team's backbone. I'm not some defender of stall but when a pokemon has such a lopsided matchup against defensive playstyles and still has a fine matchup against offense (seriously, revenge killing just means it already got a kill), something is wrong.
 

Nails

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Furthering Shadestep's response, I am also curious as to why there is a game limit. With all due respect, I feel that it is unfairly biased towards those with higher GXE.
It's biased towards people who are better at the game. Qualifying for suspect voting requirements by winning pokemon games shows that you know what you are talking about and will be able to make an informed decision on the suspect.
 
Okay, so this thing is a monster. It really forces you to run fast stallers to take it out. When I first saw Hoopa-U, I thought it would be Ubers instantly. When I found out it was OU, I thought it would be cool. Then I realized how it shifted the Meta so much. So please, Ban Hoopa-Unbound.
 
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Subjugator

Banned deucer.
RIP Hoopa-Unbound, you served me well for the time that you were available.

I'm curious to see how this plays out. I personally thought at first that it should not be banned, because of many qualities, such as it's laughable ability, typing, and stat distribution. Most physical attackers that outspeed it force it out, VoltTurn shits on it, and more. On the other hand, it's the only Pokemon in OU with no counters and virtually nothing can really switch in to it. I think that this metagame would be healthier without its presence. Ban.
 
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I love playing Balanced. I have serious problems playing Balanced because with Hoopa-u with is impossible. I can sack 1 mons for revenge kill, this not balanced. Moveset too unpredictable, physical, special mixed with life or scarf. Protect scouting does not exist. I can go to vote BAN.
 
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MANNAT

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I personally think that Hoopa should be banned, and this conclusion has come from extensively using and facing the thing.

About the pursuit argument, let me bring up a precedent in the past that is similar to the current situation: soul dew. Both of them are OHKOd by pursuit on the switch by opposing ttar and others (Hoopa can actually switch out once before coming in again) even though they might blow ttar back with surf at any point, but the fact that those two can be pursuit trapped by opposing dark types was never an automatic reason why something should stay in a tier. Granted Hoopa has some more flaws than the lati twins like shittier bulk and lower speed tier, but it also is much more difficult to counter than the lati twins with every pursuit trapper in the tier getting OHKOd by either focus blast or dark pulse as well as the "best" switch in that is currently in the tier in Mandibuzz getting blown back by tbolt and the thing is straight up 2HKOd by specs fblast after rocks and takes like 25-30% from dpulse anyways, limiting how much it can switch in. While the Lati twins and Hoopa both have many different problems, pursuit is most certainly not a reason a Pokemon should be banned.

Another precedent that I would like to bring up to compare Hoopa to is Mega Lucario. Many say that the thing that pushed mega luke over the edge was its unpredictability, with the checks and counters for the physical set and its special set being completely different. If you play Hoopa assuming it's a specs set and keep lop alive to beat it, but sack your pursuit trapping bandtar early game, you can bring in lop late game to check it and get blown back by psyshock and now have to click x because all you have now are mons you kept alive to use as fodder to get lop in vs hoopa. Assuming the Hoopa is played well, they will not use an attacking move until late-game unless they have to and won't reveal an exact damage that can be calced to show what set it is. Additionally, the counters for banded and special sets are completely different, and which you choose to play hoopa as may completely decide the game.

Lastly, the arguments of it being too physically frail are fucking retarded. You can run shit like tankchomp and RH lando-t to punish physical attackers that try to hit hoopa, and those attackers risk being blown back by a move from hoopa if they predict and go for like ice punch (mainly talking about lop). Hoopa is forced to be danced around by shit and while some balance teams can use specs keld as their hoopa answer, specs dpulse can smack keld to the point where +2 scizor with bp can ohko it and beat the team since it's beaten the team's only hoopa answer. It gets a ton of free switches vs not only fat teams but also offensive teams since those teams need to have defensive backbones with like rotom-w and fat lando to prevent them from getting smacked by threats, so a slow pivot like your own rotomw or a banded scizor can help you pivot into the mons you want to and avoid the ones you don't. "anything faster kills it" is also really stupid since mons like latios and mmane are run on offense to beat common threats and hoopa gets a kill any time a rotom volt switches and gets it in vs either of those, and hoopa can really take advantage of those. Obviously it is the most potent wallbreaker in the tier, but it's just retarded because it is incredibly restricting for bulkier teams, forcing balance to run shit like specs keld and basically every stall team has to have some form of pursuit trapping to prevent how many kills it gets. I use this thing all the time, and volturn teams with hoopa and solid defensive backbones to punish physical attackers are just stupid and really are unfair because of how they abuse the potency of Hoopa.

Just ban this shit please
 
I dunno about this, its a mon that seemed broken on paper on release day, but I feel like it was massively overhyped. Yes the specs/band sets just demolish whatever switches in, and even life orb flat out kills physical 'checks' with hyperspace. The only thing that I don't like about this is OU losing another stall/balance breaker when I feel like we could have more, so I'm gonna have to play this suspect out to form an opinion
 
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Here's my thoughts on Hoopa-u ; Although Hoopa-u may have a bad defensive stat and a below average speed stat for an OU offensive pokemon I still think I should be banned .Is there any wall that can be called a switch in to hoopa-u , yes some wall can wall some of hoopa-u sets but is there any wall that can wall them all and be deemed a hoopa-u counter i dont think so theres been so many game i've though ''o this look like it going to be bannded hoopa and then 5 secounds later have my garchomp destroyed by dark pulse'' hoopa has the secound hight spa stat in OU base 170 only losing by 5 point to mega alakazam that cant run specs, hoopa has the 9th highest attack stat in the tier 10th after taking in to consideration hudge power of M-medicham .And by far the highest combined offensive stats .I know that stats arnt every thing so I am going to come of the topic of stats for now and talk about how it completes its job nearly 100% hoopa-u is a wall breaker so when it kill a wall its done its job and often the one kill it get can be the biggest kill of the game for example say hoopa-u is paired with a Mega-Lopuny say it kills garchomp that just lays the path for lopunny to destroy the opponents team.

Summary:
You cant predict the set LO specs band who know before one of your pokemon are dead? Its got godly coverage. I works well with almost every Offensive mons in tier since it cant be walled so it kills it partners walls letting them potentially sweep .So what it can be pursuit trapped its probably already done it job before it get trapped or killed the trapper. Highest Spa stat in the tier that isn't a mega and fourth highest attack stat that isnt mega

Final comment:
Yea it might not be the best against HO but since every HO team is running AV torn-t Lando-t or chomper can we even call that HO more to the point its still got walls to break.
 
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MANNAT

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I dunno about this, its a mon that seemed broken on paper on release day, but I feel like it was massively overhyped. Yes the specs/band sets just demolish whatever switches in, and even life orb flat out kills physical 'checks' with hyperspace. The only thing that I don't like about this is OU losing another stall/balance breaker when I feel like we could have more, so I'm gonna have to play this suspect out to form an opinion
what do you mean we don't have enough fat team breakers lol? We have so many: lo tornt, gengar, kyub, np thundy, mgarde, cm latios, banded victini are just of many that you can run on teams and can fair extremely well vs fat shit especially when paired with solid pivots.
 

Martin

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those things are good for balanced teams maybe but I don't see how they break stall except for maybe lo torn and mgarde
Gar Taunts everything and also has that Hex set which pulls stall apart, NP Thundy uses a lot of stall as setup fodder and gives it big headaches, CM Lati breaks stall the same way that any other CMer breaks stall.

Agreeing with you that I'm so keen on Kyu and Tini as stallbreakers go tho. Still, there are an abundance of stallbreakers in addition to all of these things, including Heatran and SpD Talonflame among many others.
 
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Updated Kanto

Banned deucer.
All the things listed get owned by scarf ttar (or even band weavile now) which are pretty much a must on stally teams (trust me I use stall a frick ton). I do agree with heatran and spe def talon to an extent. I just feel like Hoopa-U is one of the more versatile mons that can decimate stall easily.
 
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This thing really needs to go, and it's long overdue for a suspect test. This Digimon thoroughly mauls any slower defensive playstyle. Every single common stall mon gets bopped by its dual STAB with the exception of Mandibuzz and Klefki and Klefki is going to get worn down really easily, thus making its only true counter Mandibuzz. "But its slow so can't offense check it?" Only to an extent. While Hoopa-U can't come in on many common offense mons once it's inside you best believe something is either going to die or take a cunt load of damage from trying to pivot into it's STABs. Once [insert random hoopa-u check here] is inside, Hoopa-U can just switch right back out.
 
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