But from your post it would seem that you want hoopa banned mainly because it's not fun to sac a mon especially using stall. Why should most stall players always have a better match up. If you dont pack a wall breaker or stall breaker in your team 9 out of 10 times you lose against someone who uses stall. And I'm talking about a person using these 6 in a team mega Sableye skarm chansey alomomola amoongus quag. Taunt users and hazard users are stopped by Sableye not to mention that there is always back up of using defog skarm. If you don't have a wallbreaker u lose 9 out of 10 times against these teams
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned
- Thread starter kumiko
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If you're going to pick on niche stuff like sp def Jirachi for Gardevoir, or Zapdos for Torn-T, then sure. I'm not looking at the possibility of being able to run something really out there to deal with one pokemon. I'm looking at how Hoopa-U works in a practical sense, and how it compares to other breakers when you're not running the one or two switch ins they have, which is most of the time. If you look at how Hoopa-U works, and then look at how these other breakers work, in a battle scenario where you only have 6 pokemon instead of a hypothetical scenario where you always have the one specific pokemon that you need to deal with a particular breaker perfectly, then they function very similarly, and will have a very similar effect on a battle.
To take something which is probably more comparable, I'll pick on Kyurem-B, which has no true hard counters. Ferrothorn can get wrecked by hidden power fire, Clefable by Iron Head, etc. By bringing up those pokemon, what I really wanted to get across was that it is perfectly possible to be in a battle where the opponent has a breaker that gets a kill every time it comes in, and then still win due to smart plays and maintaining offensive pressure.
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You dont seem to get the point.
Hoopa-U is incredibly metagameinfluencing in a negative way because it really limits teambuilding. Tornadus-T for example is easily handled by many teams and you dont even need to change things for it etc.
But Hoopa-U forces you to run special sets which can cripple it or revengers/"checks" or a Pursuit user like TTar or Weavile (the trap might even fail if things like E-Belt gets more popular which will happen if Hoopa-U stays, believe me).
I am not a bad teambuilder and i have never had huge problems with Hoopa-U but i think it is too unbalanced and unpredictable for a healthy metagame.
Hoopa-U is incredibly metagameinfluencing in a negative way because it really limits teambuilding. Tornadus-T for example is easily handled by many teams and you dont even need to change things for it etc.
But Hoopa-U forces you to run special sets which can cripple it or revengers/"checks" or a Pursuit user like TTar or Weavile (the trap might even fail if things like E-Belt gets more popular which will happen if Hoopa-U stays, believe me).
I am not a bad teambuilder and i have never had huge problems with Hoopa-U but i think it is too unbalanced and unpredictable for a healthy metagame.
How so? You don't have to out of your way to revenge kill it at all, and getting Hoopa-U in on something it can destroy isn't just a passive process that happens, it is something the opponent has to actively work for. All you have to do is maintain offensive pressure, and you don't have to go for anything niche to be able to do this. Due to the low base speed, and the physical frailty that it has, this is an accomplishable task.
I have the same opinion with I'm Rick Astley ,no switch in these days doesn't really should be the sufficient and necessary condition to ban something.
Scald has almost no switch-ins too,just like pursuit against Hoopa-U,Magic Guard,Nature Cure and Water Absorb/Storm Drain are the only answer to Scald.
If you believe Hoopa-U should be banned because it has no switch in,I would support your opinion only if you suggest ban scald,it limits teambuilding too,and more severe.
Scald has almost no switch-ins too,just like pursuit against Hoopa-U,Magic Guard,Nature Cure and Water Absorb/Storm Drain are the only answer to Scald.
If you believe Hoopa-U should be banned because it has no switch in,I would support your opinion only if you suggest ban scald,it limits teambuilding too,and more severe.
Creat0r
Banned deucer.
Passive aggressive dot's sure make a point. It some how implies how it doesn't make sense in a way everyone understands. I'll post more when I'm off from school but, I don't think because something had limited switch ins it should be deemed broken, and even banned. It's speed is lackluster at most and have horrible defenses. (Will post a more content post later I g2g)
In what universe is Scald even comparable to Hoopa-U? Seriously, I'm not forced to run one of those abilities on every team, and the move itself isn't restrictive to teambuilding at all. This isn't UU lol, and I'm not losing a Pokémon literally every time I switch into the move. Its not burning 100% of the time, and trust me when I say that you only remember the 3/10 times when it does as opposed to the 7/10 when it doesn't.
As for the whole argument about Hoop not being broken because it can be revenge killed, by that logic I guess Mega Gengar and Shaymin-S are also balanced because they are weak to Pursuit and Talonflame, respectively. Seriously this argument is idiotic and ignorant that it actually makes me facepalm every time I read it. If Hoopa-U gets a kill, it has done its job. Its not a problem if it dies here because it has already achieved its goal. Better still, it is actually able to live every common Pursuit from full health/after rocks, and it is able to foil Pursuiters with its E-Belt/Black Glasses set as well (hint: these will become mainstream if it stays and are disgustingly anti-meta). Every Pokemon in the game can be revenge killed, and Hoopa-U isn't suddenly balanced because it can be.
The scope of this thing is insane by comparison to everything else in the tier, and realistically speaking it is only going to be taken out through RK unless its played with complete incompetence/deliberately sacrificed due to having literally no switch-ins. Regardless of matchup, its going to get a kill. Fact. Regardless of matchup it is going to primarily use VoltTurns and hard doubles to get onto the field, and as such it is going to remain healthy enough to take a hit if it needs to. It isn't going to be switching into stuff on a regular basis due to just how broken it is with slow VoltTurn support. The answers to the other so-called "no-switchin Pokémon" are all mainstream for the most part (just to pick out one, Garde gets walled by SpD Skarm, SpD Rachi... pretty much any SpD fight-neutral steel really unless it carries HP Fire, in which case it falls flat versus a number of other things and loses potency/utility in general), and quite frankly their scope is nothing like that of Hoopa-U.
You honestly think Hoopa-Unbound is the biggest threat to stall teams? I mean look at TG Manaphy, Mega Garde/Diancie, Swords Dance Lando-T, etc. Specs Hoopa is forced to predict between Dark Pulse and HSpace Hole/Psychic a bit too much imo, as it loathes teams carrying both a fairy and a pursuit trapper (which were always omnipresent even before Hoopa-U got released) and against stall, the only hope it has against Chansey is a 2HKO with Focus Blast after a bit of prior damage (wow 49% chance lol). Though honestly, Specs is arguably Hoopa-U's best set at the moment.
Saying Hoopa-U is so versatile because it can run LO, Specs, Scarf, Band is like saying Kyurem-B is versatile because it can run physical LO, Scarf, Band and special LO (and some niche defensive crap like coil + dtail).
Don't ban Hoopa. It's definitely S rank, but... no.
Saying Hoopa-U is so versatile because it can run LO, Specs, Scarf, Band is like saying Kyurem-B is versatile because it can run physical LO, Scarf, Band and special LO (and some niche defensive crap like coil + dtail).
Don't ban Hoopa. It's definitely S rank, but... no.
So apparently Rotom-W is now an extremely niche mon and not a switchin to Torn-T. His has been brought up before, but what sets Hoopa-U apart from, say, Kyu-B, is that Hoopa-U has no counters With one set. The counterplay to specs Hoopa-U on full stall is either a pursuit trapper, which outside of potentially Tar are almost always offensive, or the X button. To make matters worse, one might attempt to switch Chansey in on dark pulse and end up being hit by a band-boosted Hyperspace Fury. Something that might be considered is running Duggy alongside Hoopa-U. not really a point toward banning, but it's just something I thought might be cool. Duggy gets rid of TTar, Bisharp, and Weavile (provided it's sash is intact) and then Hoopa-U can basically win against stall.
Not gonna be getting reqs because for some reason I can't access the main server, but I think this thing should be banned. Not only can it single handedly demolish stall, but a good player can also make it useful v offense as well, as it is very easy to get a trade off with it. I have been in countless situations where I am unsure what to do simply because my opp has a hoopa in the back and if I don't do blah I'll need to sack something. People just look at it's mediocre speed and defenses and think offense must easily deal with it, but it's not that simple when your best switchins to it's STAB take ~80%. Stall has to run weird shit just to deal with it, and it does enough to those teams too. Balance also hates it, and it's worst matchup fears it enough. There is very little consequence to having a hoopa (which is just the difficulty of getting it in, which is not that hard).
Also to the guy on about scald, you are over reacting to say it has no switchins. I don't particularly care if my Keldeo, Lati, Manaphy or almost any special mon who resists water gets burned, and there are plenty of heal bell users as well for fatter teams.
Also to the guy on about scald, you are over reacting to say it has no switchins. I don't particularly care if my Keldeo, Lati, Manaphy or almost any special mon who resists water gets burned, and there are plenty of heal bell users as well for fatter teams.
I find the debate and the arguments used in this thread to be leaning towards the problem of Hoopa having no counters -we'll refer to it as the 'countering' argument- too much, and not enough towards how in practice it restricts teambuilding as well as in-game decision. The former argument is partially flawed because the time of hard counters is long gone anyway.
In this post, I will aim to make clearer, hopefully more comprehensive and insightful elements as to how Hoopa-U creates problems, in terms of building and playing around it, stand out. But I will not give my opinion as to whether I think it should go or not, as I think it brings very little to the table.
The aforementioned 'countering' argument comes from the restrictions induced by the presence of Hoopa in the metagame and its offensive presence. Let's start by considering a practical, in-game situation. I've gotten in my Hoopa against, say, Thundurus, which I threaten to OHKO. My opponent has a Pursuiter in the back but, and that's a big but, due to his over reliance on it to get rid of my menace -and this is a situation you will notice in most of the Hoopa v. Pursuiter in the back games you'll see- my opponent is highly likely not to go directly into it to attempt to trap, turning the mindgames in my favor. This is, alongside its obvious offensive capabilities, one of the reasons Hoopa is particularly threatening to whole teams.
Now, on to the teambuilding aspect and as to why my opponent only had a Pursuiter to deal with Hoopa in the first place. Let us, once again, start from a concrete example. I'm building this balance team around Clefable + Scarftar, which are some of the best glue, check-all pokemon for this archetype, and which I have specifically chosen because I consider them to form one of the most potent duos in terms of not getting overwhelmed and outright blasted through by Hoopa. With those do, I still have a dire need to cover my check to all of the steel physical attackers in the meta (which at least takes up two mons), my water resists (two mons at least as well), find a rocks setter and potentially a remover, a momentum/speed regainer, a fairy resist... All of this led to, in the case of the team I'm trying to build, me either having a passive, easily overwhelmed team, or -and that is the path I ended up deciding to go with- a team left with absolutely no chance against Medicham, and which was also extremely prone to M-Gross. Here, you start to see where the real problem lies for me, and that is not Hoopa itself, but the difficulty -and that does apply to offense as well- to decently counteract relevant mons in the metagame. The restriction created by Hoopa's presence and nuking power is just one among many, so one of the main questions should be : is this the one that makes it too much?
In comparison to some of the most fearsome wallbreakers in the tier, Hoopa has above average staying power (what you can more or less sum up as defensive utility). This, in conjunction with its offensive prowess, sets it at the very top of the crowded pack of breakers in OU. As such, another big question should be: do I, or not, consider Hoopa's staying power healthy for the tier? This is a double-edged sword: on the one hand, its ability to withstand a great deal of the tier's special attackers makes it relatively easy for it to fire off its ridiculous attacks; on the other, having another check (although not the best at it) to the vastly underestimated and very dangerous mega that is Alakazam is probably a thing it has going for it in terms of metagame healthiness.
This suspect is at least as much, if not more, geared towards determinating whether Hoopa, standing as the single most potent breakers with its above-average, double-edged sword of a staying power, should be the priority we should have when it comes to banning. What is pretty certain, though, is that some appropriate changes would lead the tier into a favorable direction.
In this post, I will aim to make clearer, hopefully more comprehensive and insightful elements as to how Hoopa-U creates problems, in terms of building and playing around it, stand out. But I will not give my opinion as to whether I think it should go or not, as I think it brings very little to the table.
The aforementioned 'countering' argument comes from the restrictions induced by the presence of Hoopa in the metagame and its offensive presence. Let's start by considering a practical, in-game situation. I've gotten in my Hoopa against, say, Thundurus, which I threaten to OHKO. My opponent has a Pursuiter in the back but, and that's a big but, due to his over reliance on it to get rid of my menace -and this is a situation you will notice in most of the Hoopa v. Pursuiter in the back games you'll see- my opponent is highly likely not to go directly into it to attempt to trap, turning the mindgames in my favor. This is, alongside its obvious offensive capabilities, one of the reasons Hoopa is particularly threatening to whole teams.
Now, on to the teambuilding aspect and as to why my opponent only had a Pursuiter to deal with Hoopa in the first place. Let us, once again, start from a concrete example. I'm building this balance team around Clefable + Scarftar, which are some of the best glue, check-all pokemon for this archetype, and which I have specifically chosen because I consider them to form one of the most potent duos in terms of not getting overwhelmed and outright blasted through by Hoopa. With those do, I still have a dire need to cover my check to all of the steel physical attackers in the meta (which at least takes up two mons), my water resists (two mons at least as well), find a rocks setter and potentially a remover, a momentum/speed regainer, a fairy resist... All of this led to, in the case of the team I'm trying to build, me either having a passive, easily overwhelmed team, or -and that is the path I ended up deciding to go with- a team left with absolutely no chance against Medicham, and which was also extremely prone to M-Gross. Here, you start to see where the real problem lies for me, and that is not Hoopa itself, but the difficulty -and that does apply to offense as well- to decently counteract relevant mons in the metagame. The restriction created by Hoopa's presence and nuking power is just one among many, so one of the main questions should be : is this the one that makes it too much?
In comparison to some of the most fearsome wallbreakers in the tier, Hoopa has above average staying power (what you can more or less sum up as defensive utility). This, in conjunction with its offensive prowess, sets it at the very top of the crowded pack of breakers in OU. As such, another big question should be: do I, or not, consider Hoopa's staying power healthy for the tier? This is a double-edged sword: on the one hand, its ability to withstand a great deal of the tier's special attackers makes it relatively easy for it to fire off its ridiculous attacks; on the other, having another check (although not the best at it) to the vastly underestimated and very dangerous mega that is Alakazam is probably a thing it has going for it in terms of metagame healthiness.
This suspect is at least as much, if not more, geared towards determinating whether Hoopa, standing as the single most potent breakers with its above-average, double-edged sword of a staying power, should be the priority we should have when it comes to banning. What is pretty certain, though, is that some appropriate changes would lead the tier into a favorable direction.
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In any case, what I hope that people can take away from this is that handling something isn't the same as having a solid switch in for it.
I'd probably stop trying to compare scald to Hoopa-U. Perhaps it can be argued that scald is pretty brainless and nothing really appreciates a burn, but the two are pretty different in functionality.
I recognise that Hoopa-U is a step up terms of power from what we've seen so far, but the focus in offensive stats leaves it wanting elsewhere. It's very easy to force out with something offensive, due to its low speed and frail physical defence. It does force the metagame to be more offensive, but skill is still the primary factor in a match that it is in. I talked about people pursuing their own interests when voting earlier, and I'll readily admit that I prefer a more offensive metagame to a defensive one. Similarly, if somebody is interested in making the metagame more defensive, I'm not really going to be able to change their mind.
What is true is that while Hoopa-U does steer the metagame towards offence, it does not require niche pokemon to be used against it.
I'd probably stop trying to compare scald to Hoopa-U. Perhaps it can be argued that scald is pretty brainless and nothing really appreciates a burn, but the two are pretty different in functionality.
I recognise that Hoopa-U is a step up terms of power from what we've seen so far, but the focus in offensive stats leaves it wanting elsewhere. It's very easy to force out with something offensive, due to its low speed and frail physical defence. It does force the metagame to be more offensive, but skill is still the primary factor in a match that it is in. I talked about people pursuing their own interests when voting earlier, and I'll readily admit that I prefer a more offensive metagame to a defensive one. Similarly, if somebody is interested in making the metagame more defensive, I'm not really going to be able to change their mind.
What is true is that while Hoopa-U does steer the metagame towards offence, it does not require niche pokemon to be used against it.
Hoopa-U isn't comparable to Mega Gengar or Shaymin S either. Aside from shadow tag, those two pokemon are much more difficult to revenge kill. Hoopa is way slower, and can get be revenge killed by literally anything faster and physical, you don't need priority Brave Bird. What I'm really getting from this is that Hoopa-U can just switch out of things it is weak to, so none of its weaknesses even matter, but of course it can just switch in really easily and wreck the opponent too. If that's the case, and you're really just letting your opponent double and voltturn all over you, without applying any pressure back, I think you need to re-evaluate how you play this game, because Hoopa-U isn't the one at fault in this scenario.
There are other wall breakers than hoopa-U . Hoopa being gone doesn't stop you from using other wallbreakers. Nobody really likes to face stall , me either , but you cannot just ban or not ban a Pokemon because you don't like a certain playstyle. You got to judge how the Pokemon affects the meta as a whole, not just because you don't like playing stall . A lot of people including me don't like facing stall, but there are other ways of dealing with stall.
Yeah because gliscor can switch into an icy wind and I said wil-o-wisp for skarmory. Hidden power fire was for scizor. Either way your completely missing the point I'm trying to make about how in the current meta there are plenty of pokemon that are difficult to switch into but that doesn't mean they should be banned. Same goes for Hoopa-U.
This is pretty much my opinion, the main reason to ban this guy is basically that it puts the hyperbole on offense favor as it's lack of reliable checks forces 2 archetypes to play a guessing game similar to that of megaluke, yes I went there. Hoopa has few checks and they differ greatly wich each different build it has outside of revenge killing or a pursuit trapper after some residual damage was taken from Hoopa.
Honestly if we get rid of our bias towards the stall archetype it's easy to see how unhealthy Hoopa U presence is on the metagame when compared to other Stallbreakers.
I can't understand why there are people who don't wanna ban Hoopa-U.
Ok. We all think about stall most of time but the issue is that Hoopa-U can be a huge problem for all team.
Of course Manaphy TG are a ploblem to stall team too, but the difference is that manaphy still have to TG before attacking. Good stall players know how to (hard) answer Manaphy.
In the case of Hoopa-U i don't have much to say. It's not just about all move set this pokemon can use.
You chose a only pokemon to walbreak all stall team. Okay... And you think you're a good player ou good team builder? If you run HO or Balanced, you have to build a team that can beat all metagame, and not choose a only pokemon that can beat all stall team.
And think. Who play Stall have to build a team around all OU metagame, and not just around Hoopa-U. Of Course i can use mandibuzz or use a pokemon that are faster than Hoopa-U, but there are still speedy control and the fact that a good player can switch Hoopa-U away and bring back when it's possible.
I can use zapdos to torn-t.
But Zapdos are a aswer to excadrill too. And Talonflame, and a lot of pokemons. Have volt switch and can use HP ice. Can static u-turn users and have Heat Wave.
Mandibuz is just switchin and roost and foul play or toxic. Just to take Hoopa-U?
A specific set for a specific poke? In a game with 700~ pokes?
But stall is not the only who have problems with this poke.
People don't understand how stall work.
HO can be HKOed by this pokemons. Don't tell nothing about 80 base speedy, because its sound like "OMG, Hoopa-U is sooo Poor and don't have speedy". Everybody know how this pokemon is a huge problem to OU metagame.
Ok. We all think about stall most of time but the issue is that Hoopa-U can be a huge problem for all team.
Of course Manaphy TG are a ploblem to stall team too, but the difference is that manaphy still have to TG before attacking. Good stall players know how to (hard) answer Manaphy.
In the case of Hoopa-U i don't have much to say. It's not just about all move set this pokemon can use.
You chose a only pokemon to walbreak all stall team. Okay... And you think you're a good player ou good team builder? If you run HO or Balanced, you have to build a team that can beat all metagame, and not choose a only pokemon that can beat all stall team.
And think. Who play Stall have to build a team around all OU metagame, and not just around Hoopa-U. Of Course i can use mandibuzz or use a pokemon that are faster than Hoopa-U, but there are still speedy control and the fact that a good player can switch Hoopa-U away and bring back when it's possible.
I can use zapdos to torn-t.
But Zapdos are a aswer to excadrill too. And Talonflame, and a lot of pokemons. Have volt switch and can use HP ice. Can static u-turn users and have Heat Wave.
Mandibuz is just switchin and roost and foul play or toxic. Just to take Hoopa-U?
A specific set for a specific poke? In a game with 700~ pokes?
But stall is not the only who have problems with this poke.
People don't understand how stall work.
HO can be HKOed by this pokemons. Don't tell nothing about 80 base speedy, because its sound like "OMG, Hoopa-U is sooo Poor and don't have speedy". Everybody know how this pokemon is a huge problem to OU metagame.
IMO Scald isn't broken, and it will never be... And if you are worried because that are 6 Mons that can learn Scald in the OU Metagame, and it really doesn't limit Teambuilding like Hoopa-Unbound... Scald has much switches, such as Bulky Grass-Types and Water-Types, Conkeldurr can be a dangerous threat if it is Burned... But HoopaU... It's impossible find a counter to it, only Mandibuzz can't be 2HKOed by Hoopa, and Mandibuzz will struggle to it if Hoopa Tricks it's Item with she's Item. So, yeah, Hoopa Unbound is clearly broken.
Oh, I forgot to show a calc:
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Klefki: 153-181 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is ridiculous...
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 379-447 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I think that is all. HoopaU can 2HKO the entire metagame :)
First, mega diancie have trouble against a lot of stall mons, The sharpen set may be better because can deal With chansey, but in most cases diancie will have to double switch, but if you don't like predicting you can just use LO hoopa-u witch can beat stall easier because of The ability of switchig moves. But specs still really good against stall(i don't think is as good as LO, but you can just spam dark pulse ater removing chansey) and specs hoopa-u 2KOs chansey The hole focus blast argument was weird.
Edit: hoopa-u is versatile because his 4sets are really efective (band and specs are S rank while LO and scarf are A+) it's not like kube that have 3 sets some variations of those sets and still have problem with 4mss(last slot will always be a competition between outrage,iron head, hp fire and roost)
Edit: hoopa-u is versatile because his 4sets are really efective (band and specs are S rank while LO and scarf are A+) it's not like kube that have 3 sets some variations of those sets and still have problem with 4mss(last slot will always be a competition between outrage,iron head, hp fire and roost)
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I love this logic, but to be fair in your example you just compare chansey, which is stronger specially vs a BANDED WALLBREAKER NEUTRAL STAB in the PHYSICAL side, , ther are defiently other pokemons that can take that same Hyerspace , and 2hko hoopa/ Conkeldur with max HP inevstments can take banded hyperspaces for days. My point is if you compare an offensive physical walllbreaker vs a sdef wall , obviously it will beat it.
Well, actually Hoopa-U doesn't run through whole teams like Mega Lucario did, and it never will. You can still use defensive mons, it's not like Clefable or Skarmory sudden become unviable, but now you have to use some offensive pressure too. Hoopa-U does not force the metagame to be 6 HO mons or an instant loss, because it needs support to get in safely, and it's silly to just look at it in the 1 turn vacuum where it gets the perfect opportunity to fire off a strong hit, without looking at how it got the opportunity to do so, or the team support that it needs to back it up.
The argument about bias towards archetypes goes both ways. Keeping Hoopa-U specifically to crush stall may be bias against it, but banning Hoopa-U specifically to make it viable is bias for it. There is no overspecialisation to deal with Hoopa-U, but it does encourage players to be more critical of using passive mons that can't hit back, which isn't an inherently bad thing. Whatever people's stance is on Hoopa-U, there is a way forward with the meta, it's more offensive, it's faster, sure, it's not about going full HO or losing though.
This is down to personal preference, definitely, but arguing that we must ban Hoopa-U because it mauls fat builds is just banning pokemon to suit the meta that you want. It can be dealt with, and you don't have to use specific pokemon to deal with it, nor is it a pokemon that requires no skill and just picks up wins for free. It's just that this adaptation shifts the metagame in a way you might not like.
Getting kills or weakening things is not necessarily broken or a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with weakening your opponents pokemon so that your other teammates can potentially do something. As for the hoopa-u running e-belt/black glasses, the reason hoopa-u is getting so much attention is beacause of its band/specs set, otherwise it looses its wall breaking potential.
Chansey isn't just a special wall. with the full physically defensive spread, it has physical bulk comparable to Skarmory.
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That's Skarmory taking only about 10% less (multiplicatively) than chansey from the same physical attack.
One more thing:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's the same Chansey against the Special set, but Chansey usually runs this spread:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
No matter which way you cut it, there is no walling this thing. Your conkeldurr may be able to take a HSF, but if it comes in on Gunk Shot or a Psychic type attack or if Hoopa just isn't choiced it's dead.
I really don't care whether Hoopa is banned or not, but the point that holds the weight in my opinion is that Hoopa forces 50/50's weighted heavily in favor of the Hoopa user. In order to simply find out what Hoopa's set is, the opponent has to put a pokemon at risk, and if they guess wrong, they just lost a valuable member of their team. The coinflips continue even after its set has been discovered because you then have to guess which move it will use. If you guess right, Hoopa can just switch out. If you guess wrong, you lost a pokemon.
Ehy people :)
I invite all of you think about it, because your choice will dramatically change everything at that time you are used.
Hoopa is really fantastic pokemon, has a good moveset, It seems normal that you can use a pokemon that has such a wide moveset , all combined with the extremely high offensive statistics that allow him to hit on all. Also do not tell me against offensive is useless , because his statistics from SPD allow him to check decently Latios and Fast Electric Type , Also has the Scarf ( Ok lose much power but is capable of beating team not too much fast. Yes a Pursuitter kill it but Hoopa has Drain Punch that does not allow anything to switch-In securely. Also destroy itself Stall Team, just think that lately you are using Semi-Stall with Tyranitar 0_0. Now you think " Better Stall fuck shit , if you ban it returns to pre - Hoopa balance and Stall everywhere blablablabla " No I'm sorry this is where you are wrong, because if Hoopa will be banned, pokemon such Alakazam and Mega-Latias they will be more common and you will go to a metagame where balanced teams will be commonplace. Not considered that the stall has not so Gothitelle, this means that the game will evolve with different answers to this Playstile.
For this reason I think that the Ban for Hoopa is the best choice for a balanced Tier!
I invite all of you think about it, because your choice will dramatically change everything at that time you are used.
Hoopa is really fantastic pokemon, has a good moveset, It seems normal that you can use a pokemon that has such a wide moveset , all combined with the extremely high offensive statistics that allow him to hit on all. Also do not tell me against offensive is useless , because his statistics from SPD allow him to check decently Latios and Fast Electric Type , Also has the Scarf ( Ok lose much power but is capable of beating team not too much fast. Yes a Pursuitter kill it but Hoopa has Drain Punch that does not allow anything to switch-In securely. Also destroy itself Stall Team, just think that lately you are using Semi-Stall with Tyranitar 0_0. Now you think " Better Stall fuck shit , if you ban it returns to pre - Hoopa balance and Stall everywhere blablablabla " No I'm sorry this is where you are wrong, because if Hoopa will be banned, pokemon such Alakazam and Mega-Latias they will be more common and you will go to a metagame where balanced teams will be commonplace. Not considered that the stall has not so Gothitelle, this means that the game will evolve with different answers to this Playstile.
For this reason I think that the Ban for Hoopa is the best choice for a balanced Tier!
Initial thoughts are that this test is going to be prone to serious bias, because people insta-vote vs any ban that favours stall. But that's an irrelevance.
Clearly when building teams of any ilk you don't have access to a catch all Hoopa counter, unlike with other dominant offensive threats like Zard, Bisharp or Scizor. The relevant calcs have been posted already in this thread so I won't repeat them, but I don't think anyone is really arguing this point anyway.
I've heard the argument that it is possible to "counter" Hoopa with a combination of mons (t-tar Jirachi etc.)
to get a fast U-turner in but I don't really buy this at all. Furthermore the recent prevalence of the specs set hasn't made Fairies much more viable as counters since even an uninvested Gunk Shot does the necessary damage to the ones that don't already get mauled by its Stab.
Hence true counters are limited to the familiar donkey set Kebia Berry type nonsense that people always suggest are healthy for teambuilding.
However, unlike previous situations where a pokemon had no truly viable counters, there is a genuine question whether Hoopa's other flaws are great enough for it to be considered balanced in OU. Balanced and HO teams will have several things to check Hoopa assuming they have been built by humans, and the quad weakness to U-turn often turns it into a liability in terms of momentum.
In my opinion it's very difficult to quantify this trade off. However, my gut feeling is that, given how easy Hoopa is to check, the pressure on it to predict correctly is quite large if it's to fulfil its potential as OU's premier eradicator of life as we know it.
Bit of a weird one overall; my usual argument would be judge the pokemon based on the viability of its counters. It clearly doesn't have many but in practice I think it's effect on OU is not particularly devastating.
Keep for now, but if someone better informed than I about stall can change my mind I'm definitely open.
Clearly when building teams of any ilk you don't have access to a catch all Hoopa counter, unlike with other dominant offensive threats like Zard, Bisharp or Scizor. The relevant calcs have been posted already in this thread so I won't repeat them, but I don't think anyone is really arguing this point anyway.
I've heard the argument that it is possible to "counter" Hoopa with a combination of mons (t-tar Jirachi etc.)
to get a fast U-turner in but I don't really buy this at all. Furthermore the recent prevalence of the specs set hasn't made Fairies much more viable as counters since even an uninvested Gunk Shot does the necessary damage to the ones that don't already get mauled by its Stab.
Hence true counters are limited to the familiar donkey set Kebia Berry type nonsense that people always suggest are healthy for teambuilding.
However, unlike previous situations where a pokemon had no truly viable counters, there is a genuine question whether Hoopa's other flaws are great enough for it to be considered balanced in OU. Balanced and HO teams will have several things to check Hoopa assuming they have been built by humans, and the quad weakness to U-turn often turns it into a liability in terms of momentum.
In my opinion it's very difficult to quantify this trade off. However, my gut feeling is that, given how easy Hoopa is to check, the pressure on it to predict correctly is quite large if it's to fulfil its potential as OU's premier eradicator of life as we know it.
Bit of a weird one overall; my usual argument would be judge the pokemon based on the viability of its counters. It clearly doesn't have many but in practice I think it's effect on OU is not particularly devastating.
Keep for now, but if someone better informed than I about stall can change my mind I'm definitely open.
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Before you read a quick disclaimer: english is not my first language, don't be a dick if i commit a mistake, just help me fix it. Thanks.
I think that Hoopa-U, wich i've been played and enjoyed quite a bit, has not so good types and a lack of variety on special attacker moveset. However his stats are really really good, having uber-like stats, having the same sp attack as mega gengarino, without the need of a mega stone, and just being overpowered by mega alakazam's wopping 493, while Hoppa-U has 482 with favorable stats. Both of the pokemons that i've mented have really good sp attack, and have more speed than Hoopa, however having dark and psyquic as types helps him deal with a lot of attacks, having only a x4 weakness to bug (fury cutter OP kappa) and a x2 to fairy, wich are really a problem since most of them are bulky in sp defense or just raw hp. That´s not all, it has the stats of a mega and have space for choice specs or scarf ( i know scarf doesnt make much sense, but i've been running some sets without hyper space hole/fury and it's kind of handy), making him have a huge tank slaying power,running hyper space hole and psyshock covers both tipes and providing STAB power alongside choice specs. I run a modest 252 sp attack, either 252 sp def or speed and 4 hp, with HP fire, Hyper space hole, psyshock and dark pulse. This is a pure special set that wrecks complete teams even when far behind.
But the problem with sp attack Hoopa-U, as i said at the begining, lacks a lot of sp attack moves as you can see here http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Hoopa_(Pokémon). However Hoopa-U has also a fairly high attack, overpowering both mega garchomp without the sand power and mega blaziken with a choice band, and the moveset is bigger. First he has fire punch wich adds a bit of coverage for bug type while sp attack Hoopa-U has HP fire, wich cant even OHKO a scyther with eviolite and max sp defense, it can be a 2-3 HKO ( i dont have the damage calcs on screen right now), hyper space fury wich cant be countered, unlike it's counterpart just by swapping into a dark type, such as mega sableye or bisharp, in the second case to getting hit by X-scissors, and has a higher damage ratio. Also has ice punch, thunder punch, drain punch and incredibly enough it has gunkshot, also has brick break in case you get annoyed by screeners.
What does this have to do with the ban? Well, having really nice stats and a total of 680 total stats(wich only 11 pokemon have, all of them being ubers in part for this reason). While i see the problems with him lacking in a multitype moveset, even in both playstyles being physical a bit more spicy, the poor defense and mediocre speed, with a huge disadvanteges against scizor wich is fairly common, the power and capability of having uber-like stats with an item of choice, having a nice ability being magician in the case of running an sp defense tank annoyer taking leftovers and what not. It can have a versatile playstyle and moreover it can be a sweeper who can diband enemy sweepers with a nice priority with stab and huge power.
So with all of this i say Ban Hoopa-U at least for the moment.
PS: what i meant when i said hyper space fury cant be countered like hp ring i allude to the typing advantages, in this case affects all types, unlike psyquic type who can be removed by swapping into a dark type. Also i haven't got much experience against this guy, and i tend to run my own sets, but i'd like to hear some opinions to what i've said, ad if you're kind enough to help me improve in what it is smogon for me, a new community.
I think that Hoopa-U, wich i've been played and enjoyed quite a bit, has not so good types and a lack of variety on special attacker moveset. However his stats are really really good, having uber-like stats, having the same sp attack as mega gengarino, without the need of a mega stone, and just being overpowered by mega alakazam's wopping 493, while Hoppa-U has 482 with favorable stats. Both of the pokemons that i've mented have really good sp attack, and have more speed than Hoopa, however having dark and psyquic as types helps him deal with a lot of attacks, having only a x4 weakness to bug (fury cutter OP kappa) and a x2 to fairy, wich are really a problem since most of them are bulky in sp defense or just raw hp. That´s not all, it has the stats of a mega and have space for choice specs or scarf ( i know scarf doesnt make much sense, but i've been running some sets without hyper space hole/fury and it's kind of handy), making him have a huge tank slaying power,running hyper space hole and psyshock covers both tipes and providing STAB power alongside choice specs. I run a modest 252 sp attack, either 252 sp def or speed and 4 hp, with HP fire, Hyper space hole, psyshock and dark pulse. This is a pure special set that wrecks complete teams even when far behind.
But the problem with sp attack Hoopa-U, as i said at the begining, lacks a lot of sp attack moves as you can see here http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Hoopa_(Pokémon). However Hoopa-U has also a fairly high attack, overpowering both mega garchomp without the sand power and mega blaziken with a choice band, and the moveset is bigger. First he has fire punch wich adds a bit of coverage for bug type while sp attack Hoopa-U has HP fire, wich cant even OHKO a scyther with eviolite and max sp defense, it can be a 2-3 HKO ( i dont have the damage calcs on screen right now), hyper space fury wich cant be countered, unlike it's counterpart just by swapping into a dark type, such as mega sableye or bisharp, in the second case to getting hit by X-scissors, and has a higher damage ratio. Also has ice punch, thunder punch, drain punch and incredibly enough it has gunkshot, also has brick break in case you get annoyed by screeners.
What does this have to do with the ban? Well, having really nice stats and a total of 680 total stats(wich only 11 pokemon have, all of them being ubers in part for this reason). While i see the problems with him lacking in a multitype moveset, even in both playstyles being physical a bit more spicy, the poor defense and mediocre speed, with a huge disadvanteges against scizor wich is fairly common, the power and capability of having uber-like stats with an item of choice, having a nice ability being magician in the case of running an sp defense tank annoyer taking leftovers and what not. It can have a versatile playstyle and moreover it can be a sweeper who can diband enemy sweepers with a nice priority with stab and huge power.
So with all of this i say Ban Hoopa-U at least for the moment.
PS: what i meant when i said hyper space fury cant be countered like hp ring i allude to the typing advantages, in this case affects all types, unlike psyquic type who can be removed by swapping into a dark type. Also i haven't got much experience against this guy, and i tend to run my own sets, but i'd like to hear some opinions to what i've said, ad if you're kind enough to help me improve in what it is smogon for me, a new community.
You raise a good point,
I'm sure more pokemons that are really powerful are going to be the protagonist of other threads, but right now we're talking about Hoopa, and i comprehend your opinion. I do enjoy Hoopa, but i recognize that right now its too strong and would be good to ban him for now in order to see the shifts in the meta and how it affects some pokemons, as well as some quote and quote really strong ones rise and get to be discussed.
This explained part of mi comment better than i could. I think it has to be banned for some time, and if the meta really gets out of hand release the beast to tone down the situation. So, i do enjoy playing Hoopa, but is strong as you said, and really difficult to play around him without a check to know what kind of set is running
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