I think the issue people have with Hoopa-u is the fact that most of the listed Pokemon can't really switch in on it, lest they run the risk of losing over 50% of their HP in a best case scenario... Coupled with the fairly nice movepool that lets it actually do good verses some of its would-be checks/counters it's very hard to throw something in its path that would force a switch without losing a Pokemon, which seems to be the center of the argument to ban it.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned
- Thread starter kumiko
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Greninja could have been revenge-killed in a multitude of ways when it was allowed. Doesn't mean that it wasn't broken regardless.
Can we stop talking about the frailty of Hoopa-U like it's the deciding factor on why it's not broken?...I mean, I'm down for listening to the opposing side's opinions, but that argument has been brought up time and time again and has since been proven irrelevant again and again...
Can we stop talking about the frailty of Hoopa-U like it's the deciding factor on why it's not broken?...I mean, I'm down for listening to the opposing side's opinions, but that argument has been brought up time and time again and has since been proven irrelevant again and again...
Do you know what it means to be a check? How are these in anyways "checks" to Hoopa-U, yeah they force it out but guess what? THe Hoopa-U user doesn't have to stay in(!). He can just switch out and, destroy stuff later unless you wanna do Pursuit mindgames, and I'm pretty sure he lives Pursuit staying in, so....?
EDIT: Hoopa-U is a broken digimon,please ban. Cyber sleuths really introduced a lot of broken Digimon to the metagame sadly.
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I’m sorry but I have to disagree with your last statement, you’re making it sound like there’s no repercussion from switching out Hoopa and it’s so easy to keep switching Hoopa in and out of battle and that just not true. What if after you get that free kill on one of your opponent pokemon, and they bring in a keldeo, gardevior, tornadus T, bisharp, weavile, medicham, pinsir, what will you do? You can switch out to another pokemon but that would risk getting that pokemon killed, cripple, or worse let that pokemon set up and sweep your team. The spec set is great and it the reason why Hoopa is being suspected but it does have repurcussion, what if after you get a kill and you’re lock into a suboptimal move, dark type is a great offensive move but there are pokemon in OU that resist dark and would love to take advantage of that and set up like weavile, bisharp, clefable, azumarill, keldeo and those are all pokemon that you do not want to set up.
I mean Clef and Azu are the only ones not taking more than half from Dark Pulse off the Specs set and if you want to play that gamble of switching into Psyshock be my guest. You just implied a kill and you're also implying killing off something where the scenario is not in the Hoopa-U players favor automatically. I'm pretty sure the majority of any sound Hoopa-U team in this meta is utilizing 2 pivots to enhance its wall-breaking potential it's why you see things such as Rotom-W and Torn-T paired with it all the time. If games are deciding on huge risks and rewards where they take turns trying to coin flip off of wall-breakers that seems like a terrible dynamic to be embracing, well personally at least.
This next point is in response to whomever has mentioned it not particular of stance, you guys are taking the whole checks and counters thing waaaaay too seriously. Like above with the 20 or so calcs which include some of the strongest hitters in the game that can KO Hoopa-U when they come in. Or one comment that was referring to the Checks Compendium saying Hoopa-U has a lot of implied checks there so don't ban it when the GSI (Guaranteed Switch In section) is blank and the other implied checks can be flimsy at best. I get that it's a resource but sometimes it doesnt take into account practical situations to be justifying it as your case.
Then it's being thrown around this suspect is to "save stall" when it's pretty obvious that Hoopa-Us largest detriment is its dynamics in a more bulky offense meta, Stall evidently enough got the shit end of the stick there to but this stall is op mentality that's come along with possibly the last 2-3 suspect tests is really embarrassing to read.....
As far as people screaming about checks and counters and how it doesnt have any and we should just automatically ban it off of that, this logic is flimsy to when it's applicable to a lot of top tier threats. The focus, or at least the implication of the test, is how it strongly impacts teambuilding and battling dynamics in a negative manner and throwing around calcs and referencing check and counter terminology verbatim isn't exactly enhancing the points. Seems way better to touch upon risk and rewards and argue if it's healthy or not.
Please share these numerous defensive checks that don't rely on you guessing the right move every time, I'm sure we'd all be interested because you seem to have stumbled onto something no one else has!
I don't really have much to say here, I feel Alba's argument summing up risk/reward ratios for the Hoopa user was fantastic and I'm yet to see any logical reasoning that would make me deviate from that way of thinking.
I don't really have much to say here, I feel Alba's argument summing up risk/reward ratios for the Hoopa user was fantastic and I'm yet to see any logical reasoning that would make me deviate from that way of thinking.
Hoopa's frailty is completely relevant, since it moderates the amount of damage it can do over the course of a match. Pursuit is genuine counterplay which is worth some (limited) consideration. Additionally, thanks to its low physical bulk and speed many opponents will have a number of options for forcing Hoopa out (including U-turn), increasing the likelihood that Hoopa's team will subsequently be forced to make concessions.
The problem with Hoopa is that the majority of balanced and even bulky offense teams simply don't have enough counterplay to it. Unlike stall, they can't predict around it, because they have less than a handful of remotely durable switch-ins to its Dark STAB alone; and they can't effectively (i.e. with an acceptable risk/reward) limit its switch-ins, in part because of VoltTurn, and in part because of Hoopa's ridiculous synergy with M-Lopunny and others.
ban please
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Most of the arguments here revolve around the fact that Hoopa-U has no true counters. Well, the same can be said about Hydreigon and Terrakion, which are both faster than Hoopa-U, but that doesn't mean they deserve a suspect test. Swords Dance Crawdaunt has absolutely zero counters, but it doesn't mean it needs to go Uber.
Hoopa-U is like many other wallbreakers in that it often gets killed after it makes a kill, particularly due to the omnipresence of Pursuit trappers combined with Hoopa's low speed. While it often chooses what to kill, that's what makes it a S-rank Pokemon imo, it usually dies after KOing something. Don't see how that breaks the metagame.
Hoopa-U is like many other wallbreakers in that it often gets killed after it makes a kill, particularly due to the omnipresence of Pursuit trappers combined with Hoopa's low speed. While it often chooses what to kill, that's what makes it a S-rank Pokemon imo, it usually dies after KOing something. Don't see how that breaks the metagame.
I just want to add a strong Hoopa-U partner - Shuckle. With sticky web, many of those counters become not-so-counters.
hydreigon is as fast as hoopa and has less sp atk and attack, also a crappy sp def compared to Hoopa-U. It has a x4 weakness to fairy,x2 to dragon,x2 to bug and also fighting and ice, hoopa has one x4 and one x2.
Terrakion needs to set up and have a low speed too, without a sword dance Hoopa deals more and more damage, and terrakion can't be swapped into a water type, being them bulky and having no proper moves against them.
Crawdawnt with a sword dance cant be an example, because everything, even a teddiursa is scary with sword dance, also he has more weaknesses than Hoopa and tend to rely on water and dark type moves, wich can be predicted easyly, just by swapping into ferrothorn, also with max speed with favourable nature it has 229. I think it can be countered easily, and that's why isnt higher on the tier list.
All you said wasnt an argument, since you have provided a worst version of Hoopa( i have to recognize is strong and have more movesets, it's not picked because of hoopa), and two guys that rely on setup to be scary.
Also i have to correct you, Hoopa doesnt kill one mon and goes down, kills several of them and gets killed or swapped.
We arent saying that it breaks the metagame ( at least some of us dont) but with the aparition of Hoopa-U some pokemons have gone to the shadows, because they arent able to keep up with its strong set and huge raw power
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After many irritating battles of people making plays that don't make any sense whatsoever, use fat annoying teams, use almost anything to try and ladder for reqs. I think it's time for me to voice my opinion on Hoopa-Unbound being suspected.
It's a really good mon that checks Clefable, but gets destroyed by Physical Attackers of Bisharp, Tyranitar, Mega Heracross, Breloom, etc. However, I do not think that Hoopa-Unbound itself is banworthy of "limiting Team Building", seeing that it's frail against Mega Diancie and Mega Gardevoir. All of this just seems unfair for people that think that Hoopa isn't broken. There are far more things that should be suspected in the metagame.
tl;dr: No ban.
It's a really good mon that checks Clefable, but gets destroyed by Physical Attackers of Bisharp, Tyranitar, Mega Heracross, Breloom, etc. However, I do not think that Hoopa-Unbound itself is banworthy of "limiting Team Building", seeing that it's frail against Mega Diancie and Mega Gardevoir. All of this just seems unfair for people that think that Hoopa isn't broken. There are far more things that should be suspected in the metagame.
tl;dr: No ban.
Can I just kindly ask that people stop making irrelevant comparisons to other wallbreakers as if that proves anything? Saying, "If you're going to ban Hoopa-U for having no switch-ins, then you might as well ban Mega Heracross/Kyurem-B/etc." is no better than saying, "If you think that having no switch-ins isn't a good argument for banning something, then you might as well unban Aegislash/Kyogre/etc." These things aren't black and white, yet every time we suspect a powerful wallbreaker, people keep throwing around this same worn out talking point as if they are. There are always other factors at play, and if you actually pay attention to the discussion going on, you'll see that no quality posters are actually arguing that Hoopa-U should be banned solely because it has no counters. So please stop making these sweeping generalizations. They're pointless. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Geezer
Sincerely,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Geezer
I'd like to share an idea of mine with you all. When I have to think if a pokèmon deserves to leave the oras ou metagame (or any different one) I just make one thing: I don't think about it. Instead, after getting reqs i ask myself a question: Did I enjoyed this meta more than the previous one? If answer is yes i'll vote "ban", if not i'll vote "no ban". We shouldn't forget we are playing a game, where we are supposed to have fun in the first place. I'm about to finish this suspect and I really think the previous oras ou meta is better than the actual one , so i'm going to vote no ban.
You do realize that all of these things lose massive amounts of HP switching into Hoopa (unless you want to sack something in which case Hoopa's done its job), and unless it's a Banded Pursuit user, Hoopa can just....switch out?
Idk I don't think this is a beneficial approach. You're supposed to think about it, right? If it's all about fun, and what's fun for you is tearing through other teams with an OP pokemon, your vote is a vote of personal interest, not a vote for the betterment of the meta as a whole. I think your criteria should be 'is the meta more balanced as a result of the ban?' Isn't the game objectively more fun when there are more options? I tried to make this point in a previous post, but HoopaU pushes the entire metagame even more towards fast offense, maybe making the game more fun for players who like quick games decided early on, but making it less fun for everyone else.
The way I experience it, on a usage scale from Stall - HO (0-10), we're sitting at around a 6.5 pre-Hoopa. Then one mon comes in and pushes the whole meta up to an 8. The ban isn't gonna suddenly throw us down to a 2 where every match is a 50 turn toxic stall. It'll simply push us back in the direction of a more balanced meta, while still leaning more towards fast offense.
lol I mean hydreigon, sd crawdaunt and a bunch of other stuff don't have counters true, but there's a different between hydreigon with barely manages to 2hko if it carries the appropriate coverage move and hoopa-u which clicks dark pulses and blasts everything besides azu and clef back to bw viability
What makes you think you need anything more than Talonflame?!? I never had a problem with Hoopa-U the way you guys are talking about. I'm "forced" to prepare my team for Hoopa-U, and any other threat, using 1 or 2 pokemon.
Defensively, what answers exist to BW Hydreigon, BW Kyurem-B, Adamant Band Rampardos (with Head Smash), Adamant Band Azumarill, Modest Specs Chandelure, etc? These are all irrelevant pathetic pokemon and yet they all 2HKO almost the entire OU metagame with the right move. Just as you usually need to revenge kill them after taking massive damage, a person needs to do the same with Hoopa-U. It doesn't make any of them "overcentralizing"!
Did you miss my earlier comment on these 'irrelevant pathetic' pokemon? I'll repeat.
Hippowdon is a full-on counter to any (edit: non-ice punch, but your probably switching into a banded head smash or rock slide anyway) ramparados set. Hippowdon is also common in OU and can do a lot more than just counter one pokemon.
Scolipede is a counter to Azumarill, as long as you don't come in on a waterfall. Scolipede is quite viable in OU and can do a whole lot more than just counter one pokemon.
Chansey checks Chandelure.
There is a reason Ramparados, with it's crazy powerful head smash off an unboosted 429 attack, is pathetic. It does AT MOST 42% to mixed hippo, and has awful defensive typing and defenses.
Find me a similar scenario where HoopaU is the attacker.
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The rampardos comparison is kinda crap and irrelevant because lol rampardos (that and Hippo doesn't actually counter it considering the following calc: 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 234-278 (55.7 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), but really you can't compare Hoopa-U to other wallbreakers because of the fact that the scope of Hoopa-U is so completely disproporionate to that of other Pokémon. Its one thing to have no counters due to your coverage (and counterless≠op; see BW Hydreigon), its another thing to completely body almost the entire metagame with two moves. I mean seriously; at least BW Hydra couldn't mindlessly click its STABs and expect to annihilate the metagame. If it ran a choiced set it would need to accurately predict every switch-in, and if it ran LO you could mindgame your way around it if you absolutely had to. Hoopa-U literally clicks one of Dark Pulse or Psyshock in 90% of matchups and comes out on-top. This is completely ridiculous quite frankly, and is precisely why this thing needs to be banned.
Well, I have fun abusing Mega Mawile. We should unban it. . .
No, the ACTUAL objective is to see if the meta is healthier without it. And what would'ja know, it is. . .
Maybe that "the point is to have fun guys" talk works elsewhere, but I promise you that's not how it works here.
Allow me to break this down for you guys. . .
So everyone's arguments seem to be, "just revenge kill it", "X is faster and it kills it in one hit", "Just run offense", but you're not seeing the fact that ALL of those fall into an offense, or offensively oriented balance team archetype. Meaning, you absolutely have to forgo creating Bulky Offense or stall simply because Hoopa exists. So, despite the fact I'm running stall, I should just run near max speed U-Turn Landorus right? On my stall team? It's just that easy huh?
Last time I checked Specs Hydreigon's Dark Pulse is very hard to switch into, and it also has STAB Draco Meteor to lolstomp everything besides fairies which get 2hkoed by Flash Cannon. Stall better keep Clef alive or it's gonna take a huge chunk from LO Hydreigon with Superpower. Why don't we ban Hydreigon? SD Crawdaunt's +2 Aqua Jet is pretty nasty against offense and Crabhammer/Knock Off make quick work of stall. Quagsire gets 2HKOed and so does Clefable, meaning nothing really stops it besides hoping for a burn. Why don't we ban SD Crawdaunt?
Stuff like Choice Band Terrakion/Rhyperior also fall into this category considering Stone Edge 2HKOes almost the entire metagame and both have a reliable additional STAB that make them extremely hard to switch into. They also have Swords Dance against stall (as shitty as Rhyperior's speed might be). No one went and said "TAN BERRAKION" or "lolrhyperiorbrokenshit". CB Tyrantrum is an even more extreme example of this (it 2hkoes Mega Slowbro after rocks!!!!!), but no one wants to ban it. Mega Heracross/Gallade are stupidly strong, especially once they get a boost, breaking balance like no tomorrow, holding their own against offense via good mixed bulk and Sub (Heracross) or great special bulk and Shadow Sneak (Gallade).
And I'm mentioning lower-ranked Pokemon here, so I don't think I need to go and talk about how ridiculously annoying is CB Azumarill or SD Lando-T for bulky teams. Not all of them can afford to run Skarmory or Mega Venu.
wait a minute. Kyogre/Aegislash aren't broken just because of their offensive potential, unlike what the Hoopa-U-probanners are saying; ignoring the Choice sets, look at Kyogre's sexy special defense, access to Calm Mind, and what would be a ridiculous bulky water set with scald and restalk bullshit (also the monoattacker). The support it brings (aka rain and possibly more crap like TWave, Scald burns, etc.) Aegislash is broken not just because of its 150/150 mixed offenses and its SD+3 attacks set, it's also broken because of its ridiculous support movepool, boasting KS and a borked specially defensive set with SubToxic. Hoopa-U I guess has 130 special defense, but with a bad defensive typing and no recovery outside of idk Drain Punch, it can't really go all-out with a more defensive set (even something like AV).
Frankly, Hoopa-U is not broken on the basis that it really is too slow in the current offensive metagame; unlike previously broken shit like Mega Maw/Mence/whatever it doesn't have priority, DD bullshit, recovery, a great typing, whatever. It tends to get forced out or die after making a kill.
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Even with the absurd power creep, Hoopa-U's wallbreaking capabilities are considerably more extreme than any other wallbreaker because it can force a lot more OHKOs than these other wallbreakers, where defensive teams usually have ways of pressuring even the strongest of wallbreakers like Crawdaunt. There is also opportunity cost, and Hoopa-U's extremities in its wallbreaking capabilities usually outweigh opportunity cost significantly more than other wallbreakers.
Ok hydreigon is probably the only nearly comparable pokemon you've listed, but also requires significant prediction to be used well and is significantly weaker.
First off, I don't think we can consider boosts in any of these matchups. No one will argue that a boosted pokemon can sweep a team. But a boost has a cost, which is a turn. So no more talk of +2 terrakions and crawdaunts please. Which both have viable counters anyway (bulky lando, gliscor, clefable, m-sableye, m-altaria, etc. for the former, chestnaught, m-venasaur, keldeo, bulky rotom-w, etc. for the latter).
The reason hoop is being suspected is because their is no conditional. It's not like the "IF crawdaunt gets off a SD and all checks are removed prior THEN it will get a KO,"
it's "IF hoopa is switched in THEN it will get a KO."
First off, I don't think we can consider boosts in any of these matchups. No one will argue that a boosted pokemon can sweep a team. But a boost has a cost, which is a turn. So no more talk of +2 terrakions and crawdaunts please. Which both have viable counters anyway (bulky lando, gliscor, clefable, m-sableye, m-altaria, etc. for the former, chestnaught, m-venasaur, keldeo, bulky rotom-w, etc. for the latter).
The reason hoop is being suspected is because their is no conditional. It's not like the "IF crawdaunt gets off a SD and all checks are removed prior THEN it will get a KO,"
it's "IF hoopa is switched in THEN it will get a KO."
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