Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[DoABarrelRoll]

SD Zard X needs Rapid Spin/Defog support, Haxorus doesn't. Also, SD Hax runs Adamant.

There's also the problem of SD Zard-X's main nuking weapon, Flare Blitz, scoring huge amounts of recoil damage, particularly when you're trying to break through Clefable, Chansey or steel-types. Haxorus doesn't enjoy LO recoil but it can last long enough to try and 6-0 a stall team. It's more reliable at doing this specific job, which warrants a D- or C- rank in my opinion.

 

[bludz]

You can't say you don't need Taunt and then advocate LO Haxorus lol. Wtf are you setting up on without getting parad or burned? If you forgo Taunt, you 100% need a Lum Berry so you can actually setup on Chansey, Amoonguss, Sab, and many other common stallmons.

Honestly Haxorus can break stall better than SD Zard and some other things but it's sorta dead weight against offense especially if you don't have LO. Like seriously the other problem is the opponent can just sac and then KO you with Clefable when you're locked into Outrage. Sure you got a kill but plenty of things can do this, stall really isn't unbreakable lol. Why not run Toxic Orb Hera which nukes stall and can actually check mons on offense like Bisharp or Ttar. It comes down to an opportunity cost, its not the same as a Mega slot but any Pokemon comes with an opportunity cost based on what it doesn't do for your team. And Haxorus has a lot of those caveats to the point where it's not good enough to recommend using.

There are pokemon not on the VR that are usable if you know what you are doing. That said, this is a resource for players to understand the state of the metagame and the low ranks comprise niche threats to look out for. Haxorus' niche isn't really important enough to merit listing given the numerous ridiculous wallbreakers in the tier.

If you wanna argue about this more you can PM me but I'm deleting any more posts about this in the thread. It is actually just not important for us to be discussing ._.

 

[Giratina93]

Going back to Ditto, I'm not sure if it should be ranked. Yes, Scarf Ditto is one of the best revenge killers around... but it's so team reliant that, if the opponent is using Stall or Semi-Stall, you might as well be fighting a 5-6 battle from the start. Even against more HO teams, which are the norm with Hoopa-U in full swing, you really have to hope you are bringing it in on what you want it in on. If it's a Megazard or Megavoir, great. If it's something like Weavile or Bisharp (which really enjoy the extra damage from LO or Dark Plate), you can still make it work. DDD Megataria or any sort of defensive pokemon... you're SOL. Besides, there's far more consistent RK'ers out there like Talonflame and the after mentioned Weavile and even Dragonite if you go with Banded Espeed. I just don't see any real reason to use a Ditto, unless you're trying to be hipster.

Roserade to C-, I can definitely see. With so many powerful water types rising in prominence, having a toxic spike layer that hits hard and fast, able to do work against slower team builds while acting as an emergency stop to the likes of Manaphy (lacking Ice Beam/Psychic), Azu, and Keldeo (lacking Icy Wind) is pretty sweet.

 

[Kibblecat]

Roserade to C-, I can definitely see. With so many powerful water types rising in prominence, having a toxic spike layer that hits hard and fast, able to do work against slower team builds while acting as an emergency stop to the likes of Manaphy (lacking Ice Beam/Psychic), Azu, and Keldeo (lacking Icy Wind) is pretty sweet.

I doubt Roserade should be going up, if for no reason other than the fact that it literally just went down.

I was saying this a page or so back, but I think it should more likely go unranked out of lack of relevance than to move up, for the same reason as the discussion on Haxorus - it's got enough tools to make it work on specific teams with someone experienced who knows exactly what they want from it and why they're using it, but frankly for someone who wanted to look at the VR and get a first idea of what's worth using in the tier, there are enough hazard setters, status absorbers, and bulky/offensive grass types, and many more reliable sleep/paralysis inducers, all higher up, to the point where putting something like Roserade in at the bottom is just misleading towards thinking that it can do any of those things better than other mons in 90% of situations (which it often can't). Roserade mostly just wants to be a bit faster to make it worth using in it's little niche, but at it's middling speed tier it's left outmanoeuvred by a lot of things it wants to check and set hazards on.

Also, (just for completeness sake), it's not a continually reliable stop to any of those things.

- Without a physical defensive spread, it's not a hard stop to CB Azumarill if it switches in on Knock Off (it still doesn't like switching in on CB Waterfall/Play Rough anyway), and takes 70% ish from a BD Aqua Jet meaning it has to come in healthy on BD and hit it straight away with Giga Drain. it beats Assault Vest but thats a lot less relevant these days.

- Re Keldeo - Icy Wind isn't actually too relevant because Secret Sword still hits SpD Roserade harder, and with Specs has a good chance to 2HKO with rocks up. Specs Icy Wind 2HKOs physically defensive Roserade though, as does Life Orb. In all cases, Hydro Pump takes a chunk and Scald is Scald so even with Natural Cure, switching in is risky as it can put a dent in Roserade making it breakable later. Outspeeds Roserade also, when Roserade really wants to be a bit faster to reliably check it.

- Very few Manaphys lack Ice Beam and Psychic; there's usually one or the other, only really the RD/CM set skips out on coverage. If it's just Scald and Energy Ball, great, but if it's taking only grass coverage, chances are grass types are covered so well on it's team it's unreal. And, tbh, most bulky waters including the other two mentioned, will have grass types completely covered. Manaphy can also outspeed Roserade.

calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 169-199 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 274-323 (85.3 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 225-266 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 147-174 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Roserade: 124-148 (38.6 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Roserade: 172-204 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Roserade: 151-179 (47 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

I'm not saying it has to hard counter these things to be viable, but your argument makes it look like it can stop these things from sweeping late game when actually all it can do is stop them from coming in early on, if it's healthy, and maybe revenge kill CB Azu. If it wants to be getting hazard layers up early, it can't really rely on staying healthy particularly late game.So yeah, arguing against it's actual viability aside, I don't really think it's meta-relevant enough to be ranked any higher than D, if at all.

 

[Giratina93]

Well, that is why I said it was an emergency panic button for those water types stop, not a reliable answer. But I do see what you are saying. Very well, I'll redact my support of Roserade to C-.

In that same vein, I suppose we could also drop Mega Absol and Mega Banette as well. I know the latter has the niche of priority D-bond and can do all sorts of nasty mind tricks with it, but both are just... not relevant in the OU metagame at all. Those who know what they are doing will make use of either of them to decent success, but why would I use either of these things on a serious team if I am a new player wanting to know what works and doesn't work in OU? Mega Diancie covers the magic bouncing and mixed nature of Mega Absol with great offensive typing and coverage (Without priority, yes, but Sucker Punch is iffy regardless), and Mega Banette... is a one trick pony. Prankster shit is done better with Klefki, and Gengar can pull the D-bond off pretty good as well.

 

[ethanlol]

Well, that is why I said it was an emergency panic button for those water types stop, not a reliable answer. But I do see what you are saying. Very well, I'll redact my support of Roserade to C-.

In that same vein, I suppose we could also drop Mega Absol and Mega Banette as well. I know the latter has the niche of priority D-bond and can do all sorts of nasty mind tricks with it, but both are just... not relevant in the OU metagame at all. Those who know what they are doing will make use of either of them to decent success, but why would I use either of these things on a serious team if I am a new player wanting to know what works and doesn't work in OU? Mega Diancie covers the magic bouncing and mixed nature of Mega Absol with great offensive typing and coverage (Without priority, yes, but Sucker Punch is iffy regardless), and Mega Banette... is a one trick pony. Prankster shit is done better with Klefki, and Gengar can pull the D-bond off pretty good as well.

I actually think that Banette is pretty underrated and should keep it's rank. Priority D-Bond and Will-O-Wisp is so good at stopping sweepers at their track such as Bisharp, Breloom, etc. Ghost/Dark (Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch) typing priority is pretty strong in a meta infested with Starmie, Latios, M-Alakazam. I mean it has so much utility that makes it very niche. I think it still has a chance in this meta. Absol has some very niche things that make it the rank it is a sweeper that cannot be crippled and amazing coverage supported by blazing high 150 base attack and 115 base special attack. All of this is quite made up for by it's lackluster defensive stats. I think they both belong at their rank for their niches.

 

[Infernal]

Consider moving Nidoking from C+ to B-? I think Nidoking brings more to the table than most of what's currently in C+ and is more comparable to the Pokemon sitting in B-, if not better than some of the things already there.

Nido's main niche is being an offensive check to Clef. Considering how defining Clef is, this is a notable niche. Nido's immunity to Thunder Wave helps with this greatly, as Clef can usually threaten to paralyze most wall breakers. This helps distinguish Nido from other more powerful and effective breakers, even if only slightly. Aside from this, Nido does a nice job threatening fatter builds. Great coverage between Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower allows Nido to do a number to a lot of the slower Pokemon found on these teams, such as Skarm, Ferro, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, and Tran. These are all relevant Pokemon in today's metagame, and Nido does a nice job abusing their presence to pressure the opposing team.

While Nido is mainly known for the above two traits, there are several other things it's able to do. One is soft checking offensive electrics like Mega Manec and Thund-I. The main advantage Nido has here over other grounds like Lando-T and Chomp is the lack of a 4x weakness to ice. Why is this significant? While this does require prediction, consider switching into a predicted Volt Switch or Thunderbolt from those electrics. Nido can tank a HP Ice from both and threaten to kill them with the appropriate coverage move. Unless they are using Scarf, Lando-T and Chomp can't do the same because they will drop to HP Ice afterwards. This is one area where Nido separates itself from the usual grounds of OU. Being able to check non-EP Mega Diancie and Loom is also nice, and this all combined prevents Nido from being a complete liability against the offensive teams it struggles more with.

Nido does have its problems. It has a hard time getting on the field due to its frailty and weakness to common types like ice, water, and ground. Its lackluster speed also leaves it vulnerable to revenge kills from several dangerous Pokemon, including Exca, Weavile, Keld, Mega Zam, and many others. Despite this, one thing to consider is how Rotom-W and Torn-T are two of Nido's best partners. They are both great Pokemon, provide chances for it to come in for free, and cover a good amount of threats for Nido. Rotom-W in particular has been seeing more use lately, and its tendency to draw in things like Ferro, Tang, and Clef is taken advantage of well by Nido. VoltTurn in general is really effective right now, and Nido pairs nicely with two of its common users.

Overall, I think Nido has a few things going for it to warrant a rise. It's not some dominating force, but when compared to other C+ Pokemon like Staraptor and Tyrantrum, Nido provides more valuable niches to the average team. After looking at some stats from tournaments (here and here) and speaking to a few people, Nido has seen more relevancy in tournaments compared to other niche Pokemon in the C+ and B- rankings. Even if the sample size isn't as large as the ladder, this does show (even if minimally) it's a more appealing option to some players compared to other Pokemon sitting near Nido's ranking.

 

[p2]

nommin king tickle daddy to a-. im surprised nobody has gone through with this yet because tang as a defensive mon is insane.

so basically, 2 different sets, both which are really good at checking the shit they're supposed to check with widely different checks and counters, physdef is a catch all for anything physical and you're allowed to use powders + leech seed which is really nice since av locks you out of those, the only real flaw with it is that it dies to a gust of wind and is so easy to overwhelm with special moves. meanwhile av patches up that issue, making for a great check to stuff like keldeo, mana, and various other things which phys def really struggles with. the only problem here is that it can't use status moves anymore and its physical bulk is noticeably lower meaning stuff like exca and land-t are eventually capable of overloading it. and onto the topic of its checks and counters being hugely varied: tangs movepool is insane, it can literally choose its own counters because it's got such a large variety of moves which can make it really difficult to switch into because going in too quickly can lead to you losing your tran to eq, talon to rock slide, etc, + knock off removes items from everything which is also nice.

yeah please move tang up its so good because it just beats so much stuff teams can struggle with like sand, land-t, megagyara, lop, etc.

 

[TURBODERP]

nommin king tickle daddy to a-. im surprised nobody has gone through with this yet because tang as a defensive mon is insane.

so basically, 2 different sets, both which are really good at checking the shit they're supposed to check with widely different checks and counters, physdef is a catch all for anything physical and you're allowed to use powders + leech seed which is really nice since av locks you out of those, the only real flaw with it is that it dies to a gust of wind and is so easy to overwhelm with special moves. meanwhile av patches up that issue, making for a great check to stuff like keldeo, mana, and various other things which phys def really struggles with. the only problem here is that it can't use status moves anymore and its physical bulk is noticeably lower meaning stuff like exca and land-t are eventually capable of overloading it. and onto the topic of its checks and counters being hugely varied: tangs movepool is insane, it can literally choose its own counters because it's got such a large variety of moves which can make it really difficult to switch into because going in too quickly can lead to you losing your tran to eq, talon to rock slide, etc, + knock off removes items from everything which is also nice.

yeah please move tang up its so good because it just beats so much stuff teams can struggle with like sand, land-t, megagyara, lop, etc.

Seriously, this.

Being the physically bulkiest grass type in the tier (100/125!) has a lot of merit, and not having a secondary poison typing means you can actually handle SD LO Excadrill far better than Mega Venusaur or Amoongus. And despite not having a secondary poison typing, a PhysDef spread (252/200 or so) lets you avoid the 2HKO from CB Azumarill's Play Rough nearly 100% of the time (it maxes out at 50%), which is crazy.

This thing (at full HP) even doesn't get set up on by things like Charizard X or Mega Heracross: Standard DD Zard X doesn't OHKO with Flare Blitz, and Standard Mega Heracross doesn't OHKO with Pin Missile, meaning you can sleep it (or Para with Stun Spore) and switch out, gaining 1/3 of your HP back as you go to your counter/own set-up mon.

 

[SketchUp]

Short post but I can elaborate my points further if you like.
I disagree with moving Magneton back up to B-. Outspeeding some pokemon Magnezone doesn't like Tornadus-T, Weavile and Starmie is nice in theory, but in reality Magneton rarely does something better in a match than Magnezone would do. It can't switch in against either of the aforementioned pokemon because of Knock Off and its underwhelming bulk. You can kinda check those pokemon by switching in against a Hurricane, Icicle Crash or Rapid Spin / Recover but in a 1v1 situation it is still not really threatening because unlike Magnezone, Magneton only has one viable set that loses to some of the most common pokemon in the metagame. Sure, Scarf Magnezone doesn't beat pokemon like Garchomp and Heatran either, but it has some clear advantages over Magneton like the threat of being the Modest Specs set, having way more bulk and hitting slightly harder. In the end, Magneton doesn't do its job well enough to be deemed as viable as pokemon such as Alomomola, Toxicroak, and Zapdos. It's a nice substitute for Scarf Magnezone in theory but I've never actually played with a team that had a Magneton in it for more than 10 games.
Tyranitar should go A+ by the way, both as a supportive as an offensive threat. The support it provides is definitely above others in the A ranks and it also has other sets that can be really annoying for bulky teams to face such as the Banded sets and Chople / Shuca Berry sets. If a pokemon like Heatran, who also is a great example of a supportive and offensive threat, is A+, I don't see how Tyranitar isn't.

 

[bludz]

For the record, Phys Def Tangrowth is why it moved up to B+ in the first place. This is not to say it cannot rise, but yeah I think some comparisons to B+ and A- mons would help this argument.

Also i planned on talking about Magneton as well. It is not going to B- lol. SketchUp covered it pretty well but basically the predictability is awful and loss in bulk and power can bite. I used this thing plenty during Weavile and Torn hype days and was continually disappointed. The role compression it offers is rarely worth it.

Also been a proponent of Ttar to A+ for a while now if that wasnt clear from my nom of it a couple weeks back

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

short one but I agree with everything Infernal wrote in that post, while Nidoking only really fits on specific builds there's really nothing else that does its job better than itself on these and being an offensive Clefable counter (unlike stuff such as Heatran thats scared shitless of TWave) is phenomenal. That said, I think Nidoking is actually more of a B rank than a B- rank in my eyes, I've been using it a lot recently and it pulls its weight every game. I honestly believe it's head and shoulders above pretty much everything in B- and even half the stuff in B, and it's not like Nidoking is dead weight vs pretty much any team without Chansey/MSab/SpDef Gastro or something like that (like, fuck, Ice Beam 2HKOs MLati and it can't even kill you back without Psyshock), so it even manages to perform some cool stuff vs offensively inclined teams. It's a really cool Pokemon and I think it should be given more credit on the rankings to reflect that.

Also agreeing with TTar moving to A+ because it's fucking monstrous right now, with CB pretty much having 0 switch-ins and Scarf/Support doing what they always did. Hoopa getting a surge in usage only really helps its cause, and I think this one has been due for a long time actually, with or without Hoopa.

 

[Slayerblade]

Agree with Tangrowth to A-. Tangrowth simply walls too much of the tier and has too many options to pick it's counters to be anything less than A-

Nominating Scizor up to B+. Banded set is very good right now with Bullet bunch picking off lots of frail shit and knocking holes into bulky builds with U-turn/Knock Off. Not to mention It's one of the fews things that can comfortably revenge a Clefable with several Calm minds under it's belt.

TTar to A+ should have happened a while ago. Tar has more metagame impact and utility than everything in A and is more comparable to stuff like Heatran, Rotom and Ferrothorn than Gliscor, Slowbro and Skarmory. The ubiquity of Kedeo and Excadril hurt it , but the reason why Excadril and Keldeo are as good as they because of their synergy with TTar in the first place.

 

[AM]

I think Tangrowth is fine where it's at in B+. It rose up due to the defensive set primarily and I don't see why you'd bump it up to A- cause of the bit of hype it's getting. It's still nurtured by the same exact things, its movepool as much variety as people like to claim it has is limited to maybe 6-8 or so relevant options movewise which isn't hard to account for. I guess you can argue some of the more garbage stuff in A- could move down or the less relevant B+ stuff could bump down, because that's really the only merit in putting Tangrowth in A-, the former, would be realistic. It doesn't exceed strengths where it's all of a sudden a subrank better than Suicune, M-Hera mind you does a different stuff but that's a mon by itself that can split an entire defensive playstyle into pieces with the Bulky Sub / SD set, or Volcarona where the only relatively decent stops to it is Tflame and situational priority users. I also think flegg isn't giving enough credit to Amoonguss who he used as a comparison point who might not be as good of a check to grounds but it's going to be way better at stomaching hits from mons like Keldeo, Thundurus, can Clear Smog a target to slow down dangerous set up mons (think Clefable), and has a much more consistent Sleep move to utilize, while still maintaining all of its defensive synergy. I think Tangrowth has some solid defensive merits but it's getting a bit overhyped to go up.

I'd put Nidoking in B it's already been mentioned but lol at putting it in the same rank as Omastar, Scolipede, and Lucario.

Speaking of moving stuff down can we just drop Hippowdon already. I have not seen a team in months where the thing exceeds any sort of merit to where it should be taken into account in the teambuilder phase and it's one of the easiest mons to exploit / take advantage of a team who is using it. It doesn't have versatility like any other ground type which makes it less viable on teams now a days, it's above about 10 things in B+ that are just way better at doing their jobs and not being dong than Hippo is. Even if it does check something defensively well there's a pretty fantastic chance that said mon has a viable easy way around it like Wisp Zard-X for example. I don't even understand the appeal of Hippowdon other than it's not pointless as some of the B mons when it provides an invitation for so many good mons to do w/e they want.

 

[Flexxen]

Gonna jump the TTar to A+ train as well here, kinda surprised it hasn't moved up yet considering that pursuit (because of hoopa) and sand offense, where TTar is the most viable setter with Hippo struggling in the current meta, are more common and viable than ever.

Then there's the CB set, which I used a lot lately both before the suspect test and on the team I used to obtain reqs for it. CBTar just puts a ridicolous amount of pressure on slower + bulky builds and cores, pretty much anything that is weak to dark or gets remotely low will be threatened to be removed from the game by the most powerful pursuit in the game. Especially if paired with Specs Keld it's extremely deadly since Keld can just burn and wear down most of its checks and as soon as they're weakened enough TTar can remove them with Pursuit. Slowbro for example only needs to take burn + rocks + sand to negate Leftovers to be in range of Pursuit, Amoonguss is in range as soon as it gets below 60% and in most cases players will try to switch out to abuse Regenerator.
Full stall also struggles with it, with its premier dark resists being Unaware SpDef Clef and its sturdies physical wall phys Def Skarm (which isn't even the prefered set anymore) needing Leftovers over helmet or shed shell AND rocks off the field to have a favourable chance to avoid the 2HKO from Stone Edge. Quagsire is the safest bet stall has here and even that has a 25% chance to get 2HKO'd by Crunch with rocks up.

M-Latis rise in usage and viability is an other reason why I think CBTar is really good right now, since it can switch in on the standard BoltBeam coverage for days and any M-Lati variant lacking Reflect Type can be pursuit trapped and killed even from full health (like it did in my OST Round 4 game here: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138296), which is something ScarfTar can't. Then there are the other bulky psychics, especially those trying to set up like CM Slowbro/Slowking, which CBTar checks very reliably and choiced versions of Hoopa, which is removed from the game as well as soon as it kills something with its stabs.

So yeah, CBTar is really good right now imo and Scarf/Support sets are at least as solid as always if not better as well, hence TTar should rise to A+.

 

[Ramses]

can mega altaria just drop already to b+? i mean mega altaria is just so bad these days as a threat to the metagame. it's typing is cute and all, but it's seriously lacking in every single department, that it's so laughable to entertain a serious build around it. it's surrounded by a ton of better things that just does the fairy-type job better and as a defensive mon i mean we do have mega latias so in the prospect it's still in bad standing. i know the 3 attacks set is pretty threatening and all since it's coverage is spot on, but it's worn down so fast and it's power is still pretty inadequate when you compare it to pretty godly stuff rn like mega diancie and azumarill. mega gardevoir still exists too and they're just so much better than it and a lot things in A- like terrakion, alakazam, even mega pinsir.

zygarde to b- or even b. zygarde is just so much better than trash like sylveon, staraptor, and rhyperior. it fits well in the same vein with the nidoking discussion since it's just so much better than anything in C+ and half the things in B-. it is never dead weight in any watchup you happen to come against with any set you use with zygarde. the dd set just dumps on offense so easily and not getting screwed over by twave is so amazing and unique in a ddancer. stall even has trouble since it can break quag with outrage + hazard and just go ham from there. coil is garb imo, but people claim it can single-handedly dismantle a ton of builds itself with little to no assistance whatsoever and of course it's got astounding bulk + xtremespeed so please move this up it is so good.

 

[preserve]

I think Hoopa-C should be ranked. Some where in the B rank. At most A-. Even though it's RU, like Hoopa-U it's specs set doesn't have many switch ins and has the benefit of being a decent spin blocker being able to spin block against starmie. It also has enough special bulk to 1v1 pokemon latios, mega manetric, and keldeo.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

can mega altaria just drop already to b+? i mean mega altaria is just so bad these days as a threat to the metagame. it's typing is cute and all, but it's seriously lacking in every single department, that it's so laughable to entertain a serious build around it. it's surrounded by a ton of better things that just does the fairy-type job better and as a defensive mon i mean we do have mega latias so in the prospect it's still in bad standing. i know the 3 attacks set is pretty threatening and all since it's coverage is spot on, but it's worn down so fast and it's power is still pretty inadequate when you compare it to pretty godly stuff rn like mega diancie and azumarill. mega gardevoir still exists too and they're just so much better than it and a lot things in A- like terrakion, alakazam, even mega pinsir.

zygarde to b- or even b. zygarde is just so much better than trash like sylveon, staraptor, and rhyperior. it fits well in the same vein with the nidoking discussion since it's just so much better than anything in C+ and half the things in B-. it is never dead weight in any watchup you happen to come against with any set you use with zygarde. the dd set just dumps on offense so easily and not getting screwed over by twave is so amazing and unique in a ddancer. coil is garb imo, but people claim it can single-handedly dismantle a ton of builds itself with little to no assistance whatsoever and of course it's got astounding bulk + xtremespeed so please move this up it is so good.

I can definately support the Zygarde Nom. I've been using it to cruise up the suspect ladder with pretty nice ease. Since it has great bulk and is immune to Twave. Adamant Life Orb is just so strong, able to OHKO standard MSable with a +1 Outrage. Espeed is obviously great, as it can keep Weavile and Talonflame off of your back while running through a team. Yeah, this thing is really solid due to great ease of setup and very solid speed that allows you to basically run adamant with no real loss.

 

[Martin]

I think Hoopa-C should be ranked. Some where in the B rank. At most A-. Even though it's RU, like Hoopa-U it's specs set doesn't have many switch ins and has the benefit of being a decent spin blocker being able to spin block against starmie. It also has enough special bulk to 1v1 pokemon latios, mega manetric, and keldeo.

Until Hoopa-U leaves the tier it is just so hard to get behind this considering the only thing that it has going for it over Hoopa-U (spin immunity) is rendered utterly useless by the fact that it can't actually spinblock consistently vs. anything offensive. Starmie 2HKOs with Hydro without even considering Analytic. Add that to the fact that you can't use it alongside Hoopa-U due to species clause and the fact that it is both 4x weak to Pursuit (meaning it can't take even an uboosted one) and unable to come in on Exca's spins due to its abysmal physical bulk and it is nigh-on impossible to justify ranking atm--let alone for as high as B.

 

[HailFall]

Can mega ttar move up to B? Its pretty good right now for a lot of the same reasons as terrakion or normal ttar (a significant number of teams lacking a rock resist). It also gets a ddance up somewhat easily because it can set up on latis and it has insane 100/150/120 bulk (further boosted by sandstorm) which makes it hard to rkill with anything that isnt super effective. Also its stupid powerful 164 attack makes it a pain to wall and it tears down balance/stall with its checks appropriately weakened.

 

[ericaroselia]

short one but I agree with everything Infernal wrote in that post, while Nidoking only really fits on specific builds there's really nothing else that does its job better than itself on these and being an offensive Clefable counter (unlike stuff such as Heatran thats scared shitless of TWave) is phenomenal. That said, I think Nidoking is actually more of a B rank than a B- rank in my eyes, I've been using it a lot recently and it pulls its weight every game. I honestly believe it's head and shoulders above pretty much everything in B- and even half the stuff in B, and it's not like Nidoking is dead weight vs pretty much any team without Chansey/MSab/SpDef Gastro or something like that (like, fuck, Ice Beam 2HKOs MLati and it can't even kill you back without Psyshock), so it even manages to perform some cool stuff vs offensively inclined teams. It's a really cool Pokemon and I think it should be given more credit on the rankings to reflect that.

Also agreeing with TTar moving to A+ because it's fucking monstrous right now, with CB pretty much having 0 switch-ins and Scarf/Support doing what they always did. Hoopa getting a surge in usage only really helps its cause, and I think this one has been due for a long time actually, with or without Hoopa.

Yup, you're right, i've been using Nidoking alot recently too and yeah, it is a good mon. It is pretty threatening to most teams, a strong wallbreaker that distinguishes itself from the others because it's immune to t-wave, clef is one of the best mons out there and nidoking beats it and also has coverage for alot of stuff in OU, in no way Nidoking is a C+ rank, i don't know why wasn't it in B- but now that i think about it, it fits in B perfectly, a pokemon like that with a pretty fine speed tier: it mainly KOs heatran and fable with its STABs but the thing is that it has nice coverage moves, ice beam for lando, flamethrower destroys ferrothorn and deals massive damage to skarmory (which is immune to its STABs), it is on the level of those B rank mons yeah, most mons from there are pretty team specific and nidoking while not a top mon that you put on pretty much every team, it is a little splashable on offense, most builds can't go wrong with nidoking and is a relevant enough threat in OU so yeah, it should rise already and i think that B rank is totally fine.

As for Tyranitar, it should rise too, it is one of the best pokemon in the meta since sand's usage is pretty high right now and most builds run ttar, it checks alot of stuff, i personally like to run chople berry on sands since you take coverage fighting type moves like focus blast, drain punch and superpower and that is helpful against mons like zard y, torn-t and hoopa-u, ttar is so good, not just it triggers exca's ability and sets SR which is already really cool but it has a really solid bulk, sands allow it to take on most special attackers, it is a really good pursuit user mainly when it takes moves like dracos from latis well and getting rid of psychics may be very helpful for the team, pursuit + sr on the same mon is cool, you know but the choice sets are also so good, it may either run scarf to patch up its bad speed or band to hit very hard and the increase of megatias gives it more chance to shine so A+ for sure.

 

[Gary]

Jesus can Mega Manectric drop to A- already? That thing is so ass in the current metagame when comparing it to other Megas such as Zard-Y, Latias, Mega Venu, Gard, and Medicham, who can all pull their weight in pretty much any battle. While the decrease in Hippo is kind of helping it, the ever so common Sand offense is still at an all time high, and pretty much every team is packing some kind of offensive Ground-type such as Exca or Scarf Lando-T. The meta is also conforming to bulkier and fatter builds, which Mega Mane struggles against because it fails to break through anything that can avoid the 2HKO from it pretty easily. Mega Latias balance/bulky offense is really hyped right now, and once that hype goes down Mega Mane could rise in viability again, but with it being one of the most popular megas atm, it's practically a liability against most teams. In fact, Mega Mane has a terrible matchup against a large variety of builds you see popping up, especially the ones with CB T-tar on it or Hoopa-U bulky offense. I would say Mega Mane is honestly not THAT much better than Raikou at this point, because while Mega Mane has better coverage and can check a wider variety of threats thanks to its Speed, Raikou at least as the ability to threaten bulkier builds thanks to its CM set, which can set up on the likes of Mega Latias and Amoonguss. It also doesn't take up a mega slot, so you're able to use an Electric-type with another mega such as the Zards or Medicham.

Thundy by far the best Electric-type in the tier that hasn't really dropped too much in viability since the meta shift, and ironically I wouldn't really use Mega Manectric without Thundy as a partner to it so it can lure in bulky Grounds with Grass Knot as well as wearing down other common Electric-type switch-ins such as Clefable and T-tar. Otherwise it's just so easy to mindlessly switch into and take advantage of, especially with how much Mega Mane hates hazards.

I also agree with Mega Alt dropping to B+. Unlike Mega Mane, there really aren't any particular sort of builds that Mega Alt actually excels at pressuring. Practically every playstyle has something for it; Offense has Weavile, Mega Meta, Excadrill, and Diancie, bulkier builds have Mega Venu, Jirachi, Mega Scizor, Amoonguss, and Skarm. Even after setting up plenty of Pokemon can still take a hit from it because it lacks the raw power of most set up sweepers, and its either lacking coverage to hit many of the aftermentioned threats which causes it to be hard walled by practically any decently built fat team, or lacking recovery which makes it very easy to revenge against faster, more offensive teams. Mega Hera even looks more appealing than Alt at this point, because at least Hera can completely tear apart bulkier builds and is practically impossible to switch into versus offense. Mega Alt is neither hard to switch into, or hard to wall. The special set is the only set I'd even consider using these days because at least it can smack Steels and Tangrowth around pretty hard without having to set up, and offense doesn't really have a good switch-in to it outside of an offensive Steel.

Lastly T-tar needs to be A+. Even if Hoopa-U leaves, it's still going to be a very dominating force that is practically the face of the metagame right now with all the Sand offense running around as well as Pursuit being so good. Mega Latias being very dominant is helping it out a lot too, which is probably why CB is becoming one of its better sets, as most of its common switch-ins expecting a Scarf Stone Edge will find themselves 2HKOed.

 

[bludz]

I believe Mega Mane should drop too, but I think Raikou should also drop. "Offensive electrics" as a generalization have been hyped as difficult to switch into for offense, and in general it's true. But lots of bulky offense squads with Ttar or Clefable can switch in, many more offensive teams handle them with priority and then you have stuff like Gastrodon being fairly strong.

I personally don't see much of a debate as it's pretty clear to me that these two mons have dropped in effectiveness. It's pretty rare to see a Raikou put in a lot of work (at least in my experience) and Manectric suffers most of the same issues.

The real question for me is where do we put Thundurus? There is no doubt that this pokemon is a big threat, but I think it has a lot of negatives that come into play quite often. A Rocks weakness, frailty and shortness of longevity don't do it a lot of favors. Granted its supposed to be a sweeper but TWave variants are also supporters to a degree. It's also kinda got some matchup dependency issues based on what set you're running. I guess you can make the same case for a lot of mons but for example Mega Scizor (a fellow A+ rank) could have issues sweeping but still end up walling a few things or pivoting successfully. I just think Thundurus is weaker than the field of A+ mons for the most part, although admittedly its stronger than a lot of A rank too. Something to consider.

Regarding Mega Altaria I'm not sure if it should continue to drop. I'll have to use it more to come to a conclusion on this

PS Charizard X is a mon where the meta is extremely unfavorable toward it right now. That said it can still be a massive problem so I'm not advocating a drop but it's something to keep in mind

 

[Subjugator]

I second the rise for Chansey to A-. It's a very weird Pokemon, and is a staple on Stall teams. The fact that it counters most special attackers should already be enough to warrant a rise to A-, let alone sponge status (something stall has to be wary of) and provide support for its team. It pairs rather well with many of the common options found on stall, including Mega Sableye, Amoonguss, and Hippowdon. I don't think that it should rise any higher than that, but A- seems reasonable, especially with the hype of Specs Hoopa-Unbound and Mega Latias.

 

[kek123]

Crawdaunt B TO B+
I think that crawdaunt should move up because it is an underrated treat in OU and the SD LO set is extremely threatening to teams since most team in OU do no pack counter for it because the are focus on countering other thing like azumarill and keldeo the most common waters although latios and latias can be problematic the are more focused on counter other mons for example of taking as secret sword from specs keldeo and switching into rocks latios dies to plus 2 jet which is a reason why this un noticed treat can cause major problems. Also this recent game has brought crawdaunt to my attention http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-146631 which many of you may have seen although the team with crawdaunt lost it was down to a 50/50 and i feel that crauwdaunt had a large presence the hole game i feel like crauwdant deserves a move because the meta suits it with there only really being a few counter main one being keldeo.