Every stall team has an unaware mon to shut down a pokemon that's setting up. And every stall team has a mega Sableye to bounce back a taunt. Stall play style forces you to carry very specific sets to beat it. So technically isint stall by itself restricting team building? (I knw the thread is about hoopa and its affect on the meta but everyone just puts out this "just use other stall/wallbreaker to beat stall"). 9 out of 10 times stall teams have a better match up against other teams cuz the mons they use have regen which means free hp for just switching out.and some of your wall breakers are either locked in or carry life orb hence you get stalled out to your own life orb (no recovery except latios or torn).
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned
- Thread starter kumiko
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Every stall team has an unaware mon to shut down a pokemon that's setting up. And every stall team has a mega Sableye to bounce back a taunt. Stall play style forces you to carry very specific sets to beat it. So technically isint stall by itself restricting team building? (I knw the thread is about hoopa and its affect on the meta but everyone just puts out this "just use other stall/wallbreaker to beat stall"). 9 out of 10 times stall teams have a better match up against other teams cuz the mons they use have regen which means free hp for just switching out.and some of your wall breakers are either locked in or carry life orb hence you get stalled out to your own life orb (no recovery except latios or torn).
Boosts have to be considered, especially when we're talking about a bs pokemon which can hit hard from the get-go, and Terrakion and Crawdaunt are perfect examples of this. I mean you may be able to get your Keldeo into Crawdaunt, but a LO Knock Off HURTS BAD (jolly LO does about 50%), and it also removes your Choice item or Expert Belt or w/e, which means no more 2HKOes on Lati@s, Mega Alt, Manaphy, you can't outspeed Mega Lop or Sceptile or Choice Scarf Chomp if scarfed, no more passive recovery if resttalk, etc. Meanwhile, your Keldeo becomes bait for Weavile or ScarfTar as Knock Off leaves it into their KO range after 2 rounds of SR.
As for LO +2 Terrak, Mega Altaria dies with rocks up, Clef gets 2HKOed, Lando and Gliscor can get lured, and Mega Sableye is easily OHKOed. Even Slowbro hates switching into Stone Edge constantly with hazards up, despite having Regenerator. +2 Stone Edge 2HKOes easily, and Bro can't OHKO back. CB Terrak does about 45% and can 2HKO with rocks up.
Meanwhile why does Specs Hoopa ALWAYS have to get a KO when it switches in? I mean, predictions exist (despite them working in both ways but w/e), Chansey exists, but most of all, it's the fact that Hoopa doesn't really get room to switch into stuff with its crappy physical defense and shit defensive typing and crap speed. The problem is, unlike most wallbreakers, it doesn't switch in at will!
But Hoopa doesn't need a boost, that's why I said let's ignore boosts. If we're really going to A/B wallbreakers, let's compare apples to apples, not apples to bomb grape-infused apples from wegmans that don't even make sense. Terrakion and Crawdaunt's respective power from the get-go pales in comparison to Hoopa's. I (and many others it seems from the rankings) stopped using Terrakion because it's immediate power doesn't make up for the liability of having a pokemon that gets beat by literally anyone carrying a fighting or ground type move.
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Let's take a second and think about this. . .
You just tried to compare a single Pokemon to an entire team archetype.
Yea, that's how you defend your stance buddy. . .
Either way, you carry a single Stallbreaker, you're good to go anytime you encounter stall (an entire team archetype). You bring Max speed U-Turn Lando (this is simply an example), or any other 'mon that does not fit on Stall, on your stall team anytime you run into Hoopa ( a single 'mon of 100+ OU viable Pokemon). . .
You really want to continue to compare apples to oranges?
So basically Specs Hoopa-U forces you to run Chansey if you want to counter it? Like how Specs Hydreigon also forces you to run Chansey if you want to fully counter it? Like how Band Azumarill forces you to run Mega Venusaur if you want to fully counter it? Like how CB Terrakion forces you to run Slowbro or Gliscor if you don't want your team to get mauled? Like how Band Tyrantrum is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE TO SWITCH INTO unless you pack stupid shit like Mega Aggron? This is basically the argument the "ban Hoopa" circle jerk revolves around, you guys are asking for full counters to Hoopa-U; it's not a pokemon that you traditionally counter, as its raw stats and movepool does not allow it. But how about we go ahead and ban CB Tyrantrum because "oh I don't like it head smash hits too hard"? Same with Hoopa.
Uhhh most stall breakers can be beaten by the combination of mega Sableye and a unaware mon (mega Sableye to bounce back taunt and unaware mon to stop set up). Having one stallbreaker does not mean you are good to go. Stall can easily play around just one breaker. If you carry 2 or 3 you could lose offensive presence on your team. And if your stall breaker is a boosting mon you get walled by a quag or clef (unless your boosting mon has mold breaker)..I 100 percent agree hoopa beats an entire play style. But stall by itself is soo match up oriented. If you don't have a stall breakers in your team more often than not u lose the game. Which means if u want to be prepared for the small you are forced to carry specific mons. Like I said I agree hoopa negates a full playstyle. But why should we allow a play style that more often than not has a better match up against other teams.
the problem with all of the hard hitting wallbreakers you posted is that they actually have a multitude of answers and they dont disrupt the meta one bit
hoopa literally destroys two entire metas (theres only three metas btw i dont count no semi stall or balanced offense bullshit) and takes a nice slimy dump on stall
people dont complain about cb terrak and azu and bandtrum because we all have a handful of answers for all of them.
honestly people arent forced to run gliscor or lando t because of cb terrak, thats like one of the thirty viable things it checks. if you want an actual example of being forced to use a mon because another one was so broken, being forced to use P2 because of greninja comes to mind for me. literally no one used p2 before or after greninja got those tutor moves/was banned
js
DoABarrelRoll
Hoopa, as a sum of all its parts - power on both sides of the spectrum, highly spammable STAB, moderate bulk and speed, and unpredictability - is far beyond any other wallbreaker in the metagame. The arguments you're making to the contrary are grounded in completely misguided theorymon and the strawman argument that Hoopa is being suspected because it has no counters, and are only derailing this thread. Please just stop.
Hoopa, as a sum of all its parts - power on both sides of the spectrum, highly spammable STAB, moderate bulk and speed, and unpredictability - is far beyond any other wallbreaker in the metagame. The arguments you're making to the contrary are grounded in completely misguided theorymon and the strawman argument that Hoopa is being suspected because it has no counters, and are only derailing this thread. Please just stop.
Chansey doesn't counter Specs Hoopa-U. Even max HP Chansey variants get 2HKOd by Specs Psyshock after Stealth Rock.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
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You can continue to point out uniquely powerful pokemon/sets all day, and I can continue to point out to you the specific multiple answers to them. But I won't. (btw specs hoopa-u 2HKOs chansey with psyshock).
I will, however, point out how you're proving my point.
You yourself have included, in each sentence after the pokemon you highlighted, a viable pokemon that can beat it. This cannot be done for Hoopa-U. Here are the reasons, iterated over so many times in this thread:
1. Standard HoopaU sets have perfect coverage.
2. HoopaU has ridiculous stats, even before you put the choice item on it.
3. HoopaU requires no setup.
4. who cares if it can't take physical hits? if you're using it with any semblance of skill, it won't be.
Bet let's ignore all that for a moment. Must you really ask why no one is trying to ban Ramparados as well? Or Hydreigon? do you even play this game?
But Hoopa-U isn't the only one which generally takes a dump on stall; there are many other breakers which do that, and mind you, some of them are more common (e.g. Tail Glow Manaphy) or more reliable (Taunt Mega Gardevoir). Both are also faster than Hoopa, which helps against balance and offensively-minded teams. It's not like P2 and Greninja (and btw P2 was always okayish) because Greninja had enough coverage in just 4 moves (plus a few Hidden Powers, Hydro Pump, etc. for specific threats) and P2 just happened to check it just fine, despite being one of the only 3 Pokemon who could really do that.
I mean, I'm not happy that I'm forced to use one of the very few true counters to CB Azu when building a bulky team. If Hoopa-U is causing stall trouble, it can always adapt, however "overcentralizing" or borked may it be. Back at the end of BW there was a thread about a potential Kyurem-B suspect test. Quoting Aldaron:
"That said, I don't believe Kyurem-B is broken because I don't believe it actually destroys a playstyle. We have 3 major playstyles: offense, balance, stall. Weather / weatherless are subsets within each of the 3 playstyles (for example, rain offense, sand balance, sun stall). The only "playstyle" Kyurem-B actively screws over is NOT stall but actually PURELY PASSIVE stall...namely the type of stall that focuses entirely on passive damage. It does NOT screw over stall overall...as stall simply has to adapt a bit to deal with it. Yes, that means potentially going with a 2nd or 3rd steel (is that really that rare on stall?), or use one offensive mon with SE priority (Breloom), or whatever. "Screwing over" a subset of a style while being very meh against most of the subsets of the two other major playstyles is a very strong warning flag for me when it comes to suspect status. Sure, PURELY PASSIVE stall is screwed over...other stall is not. Offense and Balance are not...Again, sure, I'll agree that is probably in our best interest to keep the three major playstyles viable OVERALL, but it is NOT our duty to ensure every particular subset is kept viable as well."
I mean, this largely applies to Hoopa-U as well. What stops stall from using an offensive mon or something? It seems ridiculous, but really, the generic stall core is formed of 5 mons: Mega Sab, Chansey, Quagsire, Clefable and Skarmory.
Guys, don't just use arguments like "UMMM I DON'T LIKE HOOPA-U BECAUSE I CBA TO RUN A PURSUIT TRAPPER OR SOMETHING WITH >80 SPEED LET'S BAN IT AND USE AD HOMINEM IF SOMEONE DOESN'T AGREE WITH ME ". Please.
I mean, I'm not happy that I'm forced to use one of the very few true counters to CB Azu when building a bulky team. If Hoopa-U is causing stall trouble, it can always adapt, however "overcentralizing" or borked may it be. Back at the end of BW there was a thread about a potential Kyurem-B suspect test. Quoting Aldaron:
"That said, I don't believe Kyurem-B is broken because I don't believe it actually destroys a playstyle. We have 3 major playstyles: offense, balance, stall. Weather / weatherless are subsets within each of the 3 playstyles (for example, rain offense, sand balance, sun stall). The only "playstyle" Kyurem-B actively screws over is NOT stall but actually PURELY PASSIVE stall...namely the type of stall that focuses entirely on passive damage. It does NOT screw over stall overall...as stall simply has to adapt a bit to deal with it. Yes, that means potentially going with a 2nd or 3rd steel (is that really that rare on stall?), or use one offensive mon with SE priority (Breloom), or whatever. "Screwing over" a subset of a style while being very meh against most of the subsets of the two other major playstyles is a very strong warning flag for me when it comes to suspect status. Sure, PURELY PASSIVE stall is screwed over...other stall is not. Offense and Balance are not...Again, sure, I'll agree that is probably in our best interest to keep the three major playstyles viable OVERALL, but it is NOT our duty to ensure every particular subset is kept viable as well."
I mean, this largely applies to Hoopa-U as well. What stops stall from using an offensive mon or something? It seems ridiculous, but really, the generic stall core is formed of 5 mons: Mega Sab, Chansey, Quagsire, Clefable and Skarmory.
Since when is its bulk and speed "moderate"? This thing is slow as hell and its physical bulk is worse than that of Weavile's, so it has to use its special bulk - but with its 80 base speed and poor defensive typing, even that doesn't really salvage it defensively. Highly spammable STAB? I wouldn't really say that. The meta has adapted to it, Pursuit trappers are more common than ever, and Specs Hoopa can't really be arsed to lock itself into Dark Pulse or especially Hyperspace Fury/Psychic/Psyshock/Hyperspace Hole with them around. Faster Fairy-types are also there to ruin its day. If anything it's you who makes the strawman.
My bad. I tend to always use Hyperspace Hole on Specs Hoopa, to beat stuff like Protect Gliscor/Diancie and do reliable damage to Unaware Clef.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
Guys, don't just use arguments like "UMMM I DON'T LIKE HOOPA-U BECAUSE I CBA TO RUN A PURSUIT TRAPPER OR SOMETHING WITH >80 SPEED LET'S BAN IT AND USE AD HOMINEM IF SOMEONE DOESN'T AGREE WITH ME ". Please.
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apologies no personal attack intended. just it seems like this is becoming "here's someone else like hoopa how come you don't ban them?", retorted with "because here's their checks/counters."
for example, manaphy. Manaphy often comes in on my heatran. More often than not, it TGs right away. More often than not, I stay in and roar it away.
In response to the last point, I run 3 mons with greater than 80 speed. But hoopa is gonna come in on either one of the 3 slower ones, or a type advantage. The broken-ness comes from this, when hoopa comes in on a favorable matchup (if you only play HO you admittedly won't see these favorable matchups as often), it either kills the mon it knew it could when it came in, or severly wounds or kills whoever comes in. No other pokemon can boast this attribute, because any that seem like they could, do have safe switchins if you predict correctly. With hoopa, there is no reward for predicting correctly aside from getting your dark type in on a psychic move, cause whoever comes in is getting hit crazy hard anyway.
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So your arguments are "Hoopa is impossible to switch into because it has no counters". The thing is, if a certain Pokemon like the ones I mentioned above have not necessarily zero, but very few counters, and you don't have that specific counter, then I'm sorry but you'll have trouble, however rare/bad may they be. It's not just popularity/influence on the meta that dictates if a Pokemon should get banned or not...look at the Quiver Dance + Baton Pass ban in UU. Venomoth got banned in 2014 despite being extremely rare, due to its cancerous strategy, which was very hard to counter. This was prior to the Baton Pass nerf last year.
As for Mana vs Tran, well most of them set up because they can be sure the opposing Tran will switch out, because they don't know your specific Heatran has Roar. The problem is that in most circumstances, Heatran can't really afford to fit Roar onto its moveset, because it needs stuff like Stealth Rock/Lava Plume/Toxic/Protect/Earth Power/Flash Cannon/Will-o-Wisp, which tend to outclass Roar.
On slower teams you can pack a Pokemon with Assault Vest to somewhat sponge Hoopa's assaults, such as Torn-T or Azu (av raikou honestly sucks). Both carry moves to ruin Hoopa-U's day. You also have stuff like (Mega) Tyranitar, Bisharp or Mega Gyara, which only really fear Focus Miss (and T-Bolt in Gyara's case) and can Pursuit trap it or use it as setup fodder. You can always lure it in too with stuff like Signal Beam Rotom-W (lol) or Mega-Zam, or U-Turn Thundurus.
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Ok
Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. Weavile: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
(0)
Also, CB Tyrantrum has zero counters in OU. None. At least a Dark Type can come in on Psyshock, or Multiscale Dragonite can come in on Psyshock. A RU Pokemon is literally more threatening than Hoopa-U.
LMAO what is this?
CB Tyrantrum is super easy to exploit, since Outrage is awful to spam with fairies everywhere, and Rock STAB while great in general is not-so-great versus all the fat grounds running around (Hippo, Garchomp, etc.). Tyrantrum's speed tier is also awful, and it's typing is pretty bad defensively, PLUS it has mediocre at best bulk (decent physical bulk but that's *it* and it's still weak to common priority).
Ok, gonna leave my 2 cents about this suspect here as well, hopefully I'm not reiterating too much of what has already been said.
As someone who mostly uses offense on the ladder and mostly faced offense when using Hoopa-U on the ladder and for all the OST games I used it in, Hoopa never really struck me as something broken or centralising. So when I first heard about this suspect I was still on the fence but more leaning towards not banning it but after reading the thread and playing some games on the suspect ladder, I'm now convinced that the a Ban for Hoopa-U is the way to go.
I don't want to say too much on the topic of checks/counters and the state of stall since ppl are probably tired of this by now but I'd just like to urge some ppl here to keep in mind that Hoopa-U's premier role in this metagame is that of a wallbreaker, not a sweeper or fast late-game cleaner. Lacking the qualities of these two doesn't take as much away from Hoopa as some of you would like to and I'm pretty sure most pro-ban ppl are well aware of how to force out or revenge-kill Hoopa. Sure, some top tier mons in OU can fill several roles but others excel in one specific role and that is absolutely the case for Hoopa-U as a wallbreaker. Aside from the blatantly broken mons, which got banned during the early stages of the metagame, there hasn't really been anything in OU, which can match Hoopa-U's wallbreaking prowess.
Something I'd like to touch a bit more on would be the team support for Hoopa, specifically Voltturn because it's the best and most common way to abuse Hoopa and its strengths. One of the solid points brought up by the anti-ban side was that you can't just slap Hoopa on every team and expect it to work as well as that getting it in to kill something isn't as easy as many make it out to be. There is certainly some truth to this but from what I've experienced especially the latter doesn't quite hold true imo, which I'll try to explain:
As you might have noticed Rotom-W has been rising in terms of viability lately and for good reason, it just pairs amazingly well with Hoopa. Rotom can switch in and force a switch on a significant portion of the metagame, including some of OU's most used mons and gain momentum with Volt Switch.
I'd like to take the time here and list some of the best and most common switch-ins to Rotom: Lati@s, Clefable, Amoongus, Venusaur, Celebi, Serperior, Ferrothron, Zard X (once mega-evolved), Tangrowth, Gastrodon and to an extent Kyurem-B and electric types like Raikou, M-Mane or other Rotoms. I guess I don't need to explain what Hoopa-U does 1v1 to most of these as soon as it hits the field after you clicked Volt Switch with Rotom and that isn't exactly a play I would call difficult to make, quite the opposite actually. Sure, there are ways to play around this, like trying to force or lure the Rotom user into clicking Will-o-Wisp or Hydro to keep momentum on your side but to me it's obvious that the Hoopa user is at a clear advanatage here while the pressure is on the player facing Hoopa.
The other common partners for the Voltturn-core supporting Hoopa, like Lando-T, also have their fair share of switch-ins, which can easily get u-turned on to get Hoopa in and have its fun but I'll leave it at that for now.
To sum it up, the point of this is that Hoopa-U is rather easy to support and thus abuse, which is definetely an issue for a mon with this kind of offensive potential.
I also feel like Hoopa has been quite centralising, Pursuit has risen as the main countermeasure against Hoopa and is therefore more common than ever from what I've seen and experienced and on top of that sets like T-Wave Colbur Lati@s have seen usage to counteract that. Voltturn cores also seem to be more common, see Rotom-W above, because of how well they support Hoopa-U. Also, after some prior damage Hoopa-U can just blast right through slower Voltturn cores itself, which could cause even more centralisation if it gets to stay.
Along with its risk-reward-ratio and low opportunity cost, which others already explained perfectly, those are the reason why I'm going to vote Ban on Hoopa-U in case I manage to get reqs again.
As someone who mostly uses offense on the ladder and mostly faced offense when using Hoopa-U on the ladder and for all the OST games I used it in, Hoopa never really struck me as something broken or centralising. So when I first heard about this suspect I was still on the fence but more leaning towards not banning it but after reading the thread and playing some games on the suspect ladder, I'm now convinced that the a Ban for Hoopa-U is the way to go.
I don't want to say too much on the topic of checks/counters and the state of stall since ppl are probably tired of this by now but I'd just like to urge some ppl here to keep in mind that Hoopa-U's premier role in this metagame is that of a wallbreaker, not a sweeper or fast late-game cleaner. Lacking the qualities of these two doesn't take as much away from Hoopa as some of you would like to and I'm pretty sure most pro-ban ppl are well aware of how to force out or revenge-kill Hoopa. Sure, some top tier mons in OU can fill several roles but others excel in one specific role and that is absolutely the case for Hoopa-U as a wallbreaker. Aside from the blatantly broken mons, which got banned during the early stages of the metagame, there hasn't really been anything in OU, which can match Hoopa-U's wallbreaking prowess.
Something I'd like to touch a bit more on would be the team support for Hoopa, specifically Voltturn because it's the best and most common way to abuse Hoopa and its strengths. One of the solid points brought up by the anti-ban side was that you can't just slap Hoopa on every team and expect it to work as well as that getting it in to kill something isn't as easy as many make it out to be. There is certainly some truth to this but from what I've experienced especially the latter doesn't quite hold true imo, which I'll try to explain:
As you might have noticed Rotom-W has been rising in terms of viability lately and for good reason, it just pairs amazingly well with Hoopa. Rotom can switch in and force a switch on a significant portion of the metagame, including some of OU's most used mons and gain momentum with Volt Switch.
I'd like to take the time here and list some of the best and most common switch-ins to Rotom: Lati@s, Clefable, Amoongus, Venusaur, Celebi, Serperior, Ferrothron, Zard X (once mega-evolved), Tangrowth, Gastrodon and to an extent Kyurem-B and electric types like Raikou, M-Mane or other Rotoms. I guess I don't need to explain what Hoopa-U does 1v1 to most of these as soon as it hits the field after you clicked Volt Switch with Rotom and that isn't exactly a play I would call difficult to make, quite the opposite actually. Sure, there are ways to play around this, like trying to force or lure the Rotom user into clicking Will-o-Wisp or Hydro to keep momentum on your side but to me it's obvious that the Hoopa user is at a clear advanatage here while the pressure is on the player facing Hoopa.
The other common partners for the Voltturn-core supporting Hoopa, like Lando-T, also have their fair share of switch-ins, which can easily get u-turned on to get Hoopa in and have its fun but I'll leave it at that for now.
To sum it up, the point of this is that Hoopa-U is rather easy to support and thus abuse, which is definetely an issue for a mon with this kind of offensive potential.
I also feel like Hoopa has been quite centralising, Pursuit has risen as the main countermeasure against Hoopa and is therefore more common than ever from what I've seen and experienced and on top of that sets like T-Wave Colbur Lati@s have seen usage to counteract that. Voltturn cores also seem to be more common, see Rotom-W above, because of how well they support Hoopa-U. Also, after some prior damage Hoopa-U can just blast right through slower Voltturn cores itself, which could cause even more centralisation if it gets to stay.
Along with its risk-reward-ratio and low opportunity cost, which others already explained perfectly, those are the reason why I'm going to vote Ban on Hoopa-U in case I manage to get reqs again.
The argument is not that there are no counters. Its that it is so versatile, so risk free with such high reward, and that it is the best wallbreaker by far in a metagame with good ones, with a huge myriad of sets and basically no reason to not use one of them on your team, which destroys everything slower than base 80 speed without even trying, and is limiting the meta to such an extent that it is unhealthy.
Not only all of this, it also skews risk-reward heavily in the Hoopa-U user's favour even in turns when Hoopa isn't in. It completely changes the way other players play their game, in ways that can very easily be capitalized upon.
Also, with your assertion that you can just chuck an Assault Vest mon and be fine, what happens if it clicks Psyshock and destroys them? Or if it's Banded? lol no more Hoopa check. Each one of its sets is good, with all of them bending the metagame to try and deal with them in highly specific ways that aren't always going to work. And if you stack checks so you've got one for every type of Hoopa, even assuming you predict which set it is correctly every time and go out into the appropriate counter, your team is now contorted in such a way it is difficult if not outright impossible to beat other, very relevant parts of the meta. And lets not forget the price of a wrong prediction here, you lose a mon.
And if you come back by saying just use offense I swear I will throw something, the whole point of this is that Hoopa-U is so good vs slower teams that it deserves a suspect. Hoopa-U's job is not to be tanking hits like Chansey, its to 2hko both Chansey and Skarmory with every single set. You have 5 other mons on the team, you can use 5 "offense breakers" + hoopa and have a good team cause Hoopa is just so hard to deal with for slower teams.
tl;dr - Idk why a pokemon which is stronger than Reshiram and Zekrom at wallbreaking needs to tank hits like its a Lugia to be banworthy. IK each mon to its own but Hoopa-U is so good at what it does that it should be banned.
I don't think anybody is denying that Hoopa-U doesn't have a solid switch in. Let's look at the options to deal with it:
This limits Hoopa-U to one kill. How many other breakers can you do that for? Manaphy is very difficult to counter too, due to its coverage and Tail Glow set up abilities, so stall players usually turn to sp def unaware clef, or just hope that it doesn't run a certain coverage move. Now, look at what unaware clef actually does. It switches in a lot, and will get scald burned and worn down quite quickly. This means, that if the Manaphy user can figure out a way to wear down the opposing Clefable, despite the stall player running a decent counter for it, then they can still win with Manaphy. Now switch out Manaphy for Hoopa-U, and Unaware Clefable for Tyranitar. Hoopa-U can't still win, once it gets one kill, and then gets pursuit trapped, because it can't escape from that. Being able to go one for one on what is almost certainly the opponent's best breaker, and more than that, being able to choose what you sack seems like a pretty decent deal to me, once you've got the small amount of damage, and have prepared for it in the first place.
I'm not going to deny that Hoopa-U is restrictive, and it does force the meta towards a more offensive direction. However, all styles have counterplay to it, with varying degrees of restrictiveness. This isn't a gamebreaking threat that absolutely forces you to run 6 hyper offensive mons, or lose.
Also, importantly, Hoopa-U does not generate its own switch in opportunities. It's not as simple as coming in and getting a kill every time, mostly because of how difficult it is to come in safely in the first place, it doesn't have any useful resistances, and Hoopa's physical bulk is extremely lacking. There are certainly ways to adapt to Hoopa, and this might involve making a balanced team a little more offensive than it would otherwise be, and running a specific pokemon from a list of pursuit users on stall, and there are other pokemon such as Manaphy or Gardevoir that are also very restricting in this sense.
The fact that there is the option to adapt, that this does not involve running otherwise unviable mons, and that the metagame still remains competitive, albeit admittedly more offensive, with Hoopa-U makes me believe that it is fine to stay in the tier.
This is just pointing out what can be done, that adaptations do exist, and the meta does have a way forward with Hoopa-U. It is certainly true that bulky builds are much more free without Hoopa. I think that to ban it due to that reasoning, would be based on personal preference. As it is, Chansey + Skarmory + Sableye builds have proven to be a very safe way to ladder for a good number of players, and other very bulky builds are effective too. This is as a direct effect of removing an extremely effective non-mega breaker from the tier. I've tested out a couple of teams on the ladder now, one of which was stall. I don't find stall dittos very entertaining at all, nor laddering with stall to be a particularly enjoyable process. In the end I've decided to use what I prefer and ladder with a team really packed with breakers, specifically built from the ground up to give stall an awful matchup. This is pretty important, because anyone who ladders on this suspect a lot will find that stall builds are very common, and that you have to gear your teambuilding process much more towards breaking stall than ever before. That being said, this ladder just simply isn't as enjoyable as the non suspect ladder for me. Keep in mind that this last paragraph is not an objective argument. If anybody wants Hoopa-U banned specifically to make very bulky, passive builds more viable, then I believe this is showing personal preference for the meta that you want. As for that, well, we're simply never going to agree. Comparing the suspect ladder, and the old non suspect ladder, because the ladder should be an important factor in any decision about tiering policy, I find the non suspect ladder to be much more enjoyable. Based on my own personal preference, a metagame with Hoopa-U is much more enjoyable than one without it.
- Offensive Pressure
- Limit switch in opportunities
- Pursuit trap
This limits Hoopa-U to one kill. How many other breakers can you do that for? Manaphy is very difficult to counter too, due to its coverage and Tail Glow set up abilities, so stall players usually turn to sp def unaware clef, or just hope that it doesn't run a certain coverage move. Now, look at what unaware clef actually does. It switches in a lot, and will get scald burned and worn down quite quickly. This means, that if the Manaphy user can figure out a way to wear down the opposing Clefable, despite the stall player running a decent counter for it, then they can still win with Manaphy. Now switch out Manaphy for Hoopa-U, and Unaware Clefable for Tyranitar. Hoopa-U can't still win, once it gets one kill, and then gets pursuit trapped, because it can't escape from that. Being able to go one for one on what is almost certainly the opponent's best breaker, and more than that, being able to choose what you sack seems like a pretty decent deal to me, once you've got the small amount of damage, and have prepared for it in the first place.
I'm not going to deny that Hoopa-U is restrictive, and it does force the meta towards a more offensive direction. However, all styles have counterplay to it, with varying degrees of restrictiveness. This isn't a gamebreaking threat that absolutely forces you to run 6 hyper offensive mons, or lose.
Also, importantly, Hoopa-U does not generate its own switch in opportunities. It's not as simple as coming in and getting a kill every time, mostly because of how difficult it is to come in safely in the first place, it doesn't have any useful resistances, and Hoopa's physical bulk is extremely lacking. There are certainly ways to adapt to Hoopa, and this might involve making a balanced team a little more offensive than it would otherwise be, and running a specific pokemon from a list of pursuit users on stall, and there are other pokemon such as Manaphy or Gardevoir that are also very restricting in this sense.
The fact that there is the option to adapt, that this does not involve running otherwise unviable mons, and that the metagame still remains competitive, albeit admittedly more offensive, with Hoopa-U makes me believe that it is fine to stay in the tier.
This is just pointing out what can be done, that adaptations do exist, and the meta does have a way forward with Hoopa-U. It is certainly true that bulky builds are much more free without Hoopa. I think that to ban it due to that reasoning, would be based on personal preference. As it is, Chansey + Skarmory + Sableye builds have proven to be a very safe way to ladder for a good number of players, and other very bulky builds are effective too. This is as a direct effect of removing an extremely effective non-mega breaker from the tier. I've tested out a couple of teams on the ladder now, one of which was stall. I don't find stall dittos very entertaining at all, nor laddering with stall to be a particularly enjoyable process. In the end I've decided to use what I prefer and ladder with a team really packed with breakers, specifically built from the ground up to give stall an awful matchup. This is pretty important, because anyone who ladders on this suspect a lot will find that stall builds are very common, and that you have to gear your teambuilding process much more towards breaking stall than ever before. That being said, this ladder just simply isn't as enjoyable as the non suspect ladder for me. Keep in mind that this last paragraph is not an objective argument. If anybody wants Hoopa-U banned specifically to make very bulky, passive builds more viable, then I believe this is showing personal preference for the meta that you want. As for that, well, we're simply never going to agree. Comparing the suspect ladder, and the old non suspect ladder, because the ladder should be an important factor in any decision about tiering policy, I find the non suspect ladder to be much more enjoyable. Based on my own personal preference, a metagame with Hoopa-U is much more enjoyable than one without it.
So can I ask what your plan to deal with Hoopa is once people start using non-choice sets to take advantage of the fact that the only way to stop it right now is pursuit? Cause then you've got to win a 50/50. IDK about you but if your answer to a mon is sack something then hope to win a 50/50 to revenge kill it, I have a problem with that.
EDIT: also unless you're using hyperspace fury hoopa lives a pursuit from full. So 2 kills.
EDIT: also unless you're using hyperspace fury hoopa lives a pursuit from full. So 2 kills.
Non-choice sets such as expert belt or life orb, lack the power or survivability due to lo recoil that choice sets do. So they'll hit significantly less hard. From what I can tell, the main reason why Hoopa is being suspected is because of how hard it hits, so its main strength will be diminished. Also, you only need about 30% on hoopa to bring it into pursuit range, that shouldn't be impossible even for a passive team.
You should explain me where I did write such a thing lol. When I say "I found the metagame better" I don't mean that I enjoyed spamming the suspected mon everywhere and now i cry like a baby because omg I haven't my hoopa anymore. When you remove a pokèmon from the metagame... well, it changes. Some playstyles or pokèmons suddendly become stronger and some other playstyles or mons become weaker. Question is: "Am I happy this archetype (or playstyle, or pokèmon or whatever you want) is more viable than before and these others are less viable?"
This was the point of my speech.
If you think a more matchup-based meta is healthier i'm fine with it, but no need for me to continue this.
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yeah I think first and foremost the problem with hoopa is it's switchins are literally zero. Unlike most offensive mons it has monstrous attack and spatk stats, and most defensive mons are either specially or physically defensive. This essentially makes coming into Hoopa guesswork, where the wrong choice means you lose a mon. Also if it's mixed, even if you get the first predict right, say on a Psychic, and try to pivot there's a good chance you'll get bopped by fury the next turn. This is unlike mons like Garchomp, which is dangerous but you really only need to be concerned about a physical set, likewise, spdef mons are usually enough to take on torn-t. Another seemingly minor niche Hoopa has over other phys. offensive mons is Hyperspace Fury hits Garchomp and Ferro without taking chip damage, making it somewhat harder to wear down.
Regarding Pursuit trapping as a means to revenge kill, tbh people just click Pursuit every time since Hoopa's usually too much of a threat, esp if their opponent has something to easily take crunches/sucker punches such as Garchomp, and not all hoopa run fighting coverage (though most do). So alot of people will just stay in to get off the damage.
It's true banning hoopa will increase the viability of stall considerably, and I think most people can agree trying to ladder and getting stall teams is a pain in the ass. I'm not 100% decided yet but nevertheless am p sure this thing has to go, because of the strain it puts on teams needing to have safe countermeasures to voltturn and fast physical attackers so they aren't put at an immediate disadvantage when facing a hoopa-u.
Regarding Pursuit trapping as a means to revenge kill, tbh people just click Pursuit every time since Hoopa's usually too much of a threat, esp if their opponent has something to easily take crunches/sucker punches such as Garchomp, and not all hoopa run fighting coverage (though most do). So alot of people will just stay in to get off the damage.
It's true banning hoopa will increase the viability of stall considerably, and I think most people can agree trying to ladder and getting stall teams is a pain in the ass. I'm not 100% decided yet but nevertheless am p sure this thing has to go, because of the strain it puts on teams needing to have safe countermeasures to voltturn and fast physical attackers so they aren't put at an immediate disadvantage when facing a hoopa-u.
Saying you can run a Pursuiter and in theory "I'll be able to get 39% on it and then pursuit" it is kinda ludicrous because at that point Hoopa has still forced a trade unless you have massive balls and stellar guesswork and get your Pursuit user in vs it on a resisted move(only possible with ttar vs Specs Dark Pulse btw, Weavile and Bisharp force themselves into a 50:50 at that point.) It also uses a stupid definition of "stallbreak". You don't have to sweep stall to break it, but if a mon like Hoopa can force the correct trade then who's to say stall won't topple? Especially with the tendency it has of attracting pursuits which are one of the most risky moves to make when playing vs strong set up dudes that fit on Hoopa squadrons. It's very very rare to see Hoopa not force at least one trade and in many cases it can be a case of Hoopa gets free entry, Hoopa gets a kill as seen vs some balances.
Re: the fucking stupid Hydreigon comparisons, here's a major difference your theorymon seems to be lacking. Hydreigon to be anywhere fucking near unwallable needs to be mixed with Pulse / Draco / Superpower / Flash Cannon and even then AV Torn waltzes in and back out, U Turning and gaining momentum while it does so. Going mixed forces Hydreigon to go for LO which huuuuuuugely reduces longevity, with all the sand going round losing 16% a turn compared to none is fucking mediocre. I shouldn't even have to go into the monumental power diff so I'll leave that there as it is.
Re: the fucking stupid Hydreigon comparisons, here's a major difference your theorymon seems to be lacking. Hydreigon to be anywhere fucking near unwallable needs to be mixed with Pulse / Draco / Superpower / Flash Cannon and even then AV Torn waltzes in and back out, U Turning and gaining momentum while it does so. Going mixed forces Hydreigon to go for LO which huuuuuuugely reduces longevity, with all the sand going round losing 16% a turn compared to none is fucking mediocre. I shouldn't even have to go into the monumental power diff so I'll leave that there as it is.
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Im not sure base 170/160 would render either Life Orb as significantly less power tbh (I wouldn't even say Expert Belt would be much less power seeing it already can hit like a truck). I mean while the recoil isn't great it makes it significantly more difficult to Pursuit trap as then it can just change its move then. I agree a 50/50 occurs then but this is essentially a very similar arguement to when Aegislash was banned then while having the wide movepool that of Greninja (just without constantly being STAB). Only true difference is that it's not as fast as Greninja but bulkier somewhat, while being faster then Aegislash but not as bulky as it.
Taunt Serperior exists so it can storm sable and taunt clef.
Mega Diancie can 2HKO phys. def clefable relatively easily, or you know, the mag you run with it wears stall down.
Rain Manaphy, only M-Venusuar, can take care of this, or SpD unaware clef, which loses to the physical breakers it was supposed to stop.
Gliscor Subtoxic hurts, tauntroost hurts, sd does damage, and it isn't really killed by weak scalds, only slowbro or cune really can.
Not to mention the 36 others
AM Edit: Cleaned up
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