ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[Magermilchpuur]

(...) I am new to the competitive scene (...)

(...) how you get on without any PROPER understanding of the current metagame (...)

I dont want to sound rude but you might want to explain how somebody new to this scene is able to have a better understanding of the metagame than a bunch of players (myself excluded) that have been around here for quite a while.
Sry if this post is against the rules :)

 

[Fireburn]

what did FIREBURN mean when he said OP was dead?

 

[Maxgepic]

welp... you got me there, but I do have enough of an understanding to say that this is by far the most pathetic attempt at reflecting the metagame I have ever seen in my life.
contrary to what my removed post implied I love the ORAS Ubers metagame in spite of the high usage of PDon/MMence/GeoXern but how can I enjoy the metagame when all my beloved pokemon are ranked so out of place? Seriously Fireburn unlock the old thread, scrap this monstrosity and then 22 pages of high player talk can turn into something amazing. I've seen the old thread I love what every one was talking about its was just... perfect but... THIS?! THIS is what the metagame has become?! for the love of Arceus NO!

EDIT: FIREBURN the ninja strikes again!

 

[dice]

I'm aware that Arceus-Water can toxic Pdon but SD/Twave+SD still beats it and steel types like Aegislash and Ferrothorn still beat it. Also it has a small case of 4MSS because it wants ice beam not to get wrecked by refresh Mence but at the same time it NEEDS Judgment not to get wrecked by steels (have fun chiping away at them with ice beam) either way your going to die to smoething pretty nasty, I say it's A- at best. oh! did I forget to mention this thing only fits on stall?

Honestly can we just make the current viability rankings look like the old thread please? if you still think I'm insane then do yourself a favour and quickly remind yourself that Arceus-Dark's primary niche as a stall breaker is better then ever in a metagame where Primal Groudon is a fantastic offensive partner to it or that Genesect is a great momentoum grabber and an amazing check to the Latis.

EDIT: OH! forgot to mention that Arceus-Water can no longer check POrgre because both common Kyogre sets (CM+3 attacks,physical def resttalk) beat it.

arceus-water's best set is judgment/ice beam/recover/toxic. on balance, teammates like salamence, giratina-o, and lugia can act as checks to sd variants of groudon. groudon requires multiple team slots to beat, and this shouldn't relegate arc-water; its utility is seen in the way it beats several threats like ho-oh and salamence as well. steels like ferrothorn and aegislash have become scarce as pokes which give pdon free switches are typically not the best of metagame choices. it fits on more than just stall as well-- the best teams in the metagame are balanced; it is one of the most common arceus formes on said teams.

you contend that arceus-dark and genesect are quality without much support at all. arc-dark lacks much of a defensive niche (ghosteus is pretty obsolete.. mewtwo is hardly seen) and its typing struggles due to the prevalence of pokemon like ho-oh and xerneas on almost every balance and offensive respectively. genesect can't revenge kill any of the common sweepers of the metagame (pdon, mence, ekiller) and is often just set up bait. scarfers in general in this tier are terrible barring xerneas and landorus-t.

it's worth remembering that, with the introduction of primal groudon, the way the metagame began to cover kyogre shifted dramatically. as primal groudon is such a polarizing force and general cockblock, offensive and balance teams opted to become more resistance based against it as opposed to running sets which damaged it. in other words, primal kyogre is overcome with finesse: water resistances and soft checks like latios and arceus-water allow for you to pivot into your own groudon to reclaim the weather war. this is a unique facet of the metagame that you would understand if you played it a bit more.

it's not that the list is flawed that much. your perception could be shifted a bit with some more practice and play in the meta to understand some of these fundamental metagame theories that many of the top players have adopted.

 

[Kurona]

welp... you got me there, but I do have enough of an understanding to say that this is by far the most pathetic attempt at reflecting the metagame I have ever seen in my life.
contrary to what my removed post implied I love the ORAS Ubers metagame in spite of the high usage of PDon/MMence/GeoXern but how can I enjoy the metagame when all my beloved pokemon are ranked so out of place? Seriously Fireburn unlock the old thread, scrap this monstrosity and then 22 pages of high player talk can turn into something amazing. I've seen the old thread I love what every one was talking about its was just... perfect but... THIS?! THIS is what the metagame has become?! for the love of Arceus NO!

EDIT: FIREBURN the ninja strikes again!

It would severely help your argument if you explained why the current rankings are inferior and showed a single ounce of metagame knowledge

 

[Maxgepic]

Why do I have to? all you have to do to see what is wrong with the current list is keep looking at it and then compare it to the old one.
if that dose not prove my point then SEEYA!

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Why do I have to? all you have to do to see what is wrong with the current list is keep looking at it and then compare it to the old one.
if that dose not prove my point then SEEYA!

but why are these rankings wrong? provide arguments as to why certain pokemon should be ranked differently, explain it

p.s

 

[Maxgepic]

So it seems I see something in the current viability rankings that other people don't, I really don't know why I even bothered. huh! to think one simply question turned into one BIG argument but in any case I'm sorry I guess I'm just bored ever since the old thread was locked away I wanted to try come here to talk about cool Uber shit but I guess my vision of the current rankings just for whatever reason didn't settle with me I am so sorry for wasting you time and I will leave without any regreat or satisfaction.

EDIT: ApplepieFTW some people have like only 20 messages you know.

 

[Kurona]

So it seems I see something in the current viability rankings that other people don't, I really don't know why I even bothered. huh! to think one simply question turned into one BIG argument but in any case I'm sorry I guess I'm just bored ever since the old thread was locked away I wanted to try come here to talk about cool Uber shit but I guess my vision of the current rankings just for whatever reason didn't settle with me I am so sorry for wasting you time and I will leave without any regreat or satisfaction.

It's not that you have a different opinion. It's that you don't even bother to explain what that opinion is. If you just come in, say something that a lot of people - including top players with some of the greatest experience and insight in the meta - worked on is a load of shite, and then refuse to explain why, say it should be changed and pretty much that you're seeing something that no-one else can, why do you expect a positive response?

 

[Maxgepic]

OK. I swear to holy mother of Arceus this is the last post I'm going to make on this thread and then I am done for good OK? So no more replies please. I am not giving actual responses as to why this list is bad because in my opinion, I find it easy to see most of the flaws of this list and I am legitimately concerned why people are not simply just looking at them. I mean the main flaw for one thing is that the rankings are NOT in alphabetical order but instead based on how many teams a pokemon can fit on by that logic Yveltal should be S+ because it can fit on basically every team (LO=HO/BO Physical Def=Stall Balance=Balance) so theres that IMO the list's order should just be just how good a pokemon is. not how many teams it can fit on. Ass for the other problems there are a ridiculous amount of them and the fact that you want me to give a real explanation means that well Fuck it...here you go...
1. Why is there no S-?
2. Arceus-Ground is considered more viable then Arceus-Ghost this is bad because the former has only one good set, only fits on 1 playstyle and doesn't even do its job well while the latter has 3 very viable set and fits on many playstyles.
3. Latios is in A while Latias is in B+ this is bad because while latios has more firepower latias has much more defensive use and is a way better option for balance and stall either way they both do the same thing (checking primals,defog ect) so this is just... wrong.
4. Arceus-Dragon off all things is considered more viable then Mewtwo...

And a shit load of other things but these are the main one's (sigh)

Look I will be honest I know on the surface I don't have much competitive experience but the truth is I have been playing for almost two years and I joined pokemon through gen 6 so my knowledge of the game is relatively limited outside of that but I have been playing ORAS Ubers, its a fun tier and I enjoy a lot. I know on the surface I just look like I am interfering with a legitimately good thread but I am a good guy and I don't want to say that this list is bad I am just saying things haven't been looking so hot maybe the Sun and Moon metagame will be less insane but as it stand now the idea of 2 threads is... you know.

Now feed me to the Lions

 

[Fireburn]

So no more replies please. I am not giving actual responses as to why this list is bad because in my opinion, I find it easy to see most of the flaws of this list and I am legitimately concerned why people are not simply just looking at them.

My friend, it seems you have misunderstood the purpose of what we call an "Internet Forum!" Allow me to educate you. Please especially take note of the first line in this entry:

An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages.

Naturally, in order to hold a discussion, one must be able to respond or reply to another's argument. This is what has been happening here, in this very thread, ever since the release of ORAS to adjust the rankings to where they are now in accordance with metagame trends. Through this strange and unfamiliar system of replying to each others ideas - one might say this is called "holding a conversation," as per the definition - we have happened upon these rules regarding Pokemon viability:

1) Pokemon change in viability with new metagame additions (new Pokemon, items, mechanics, etc).
2) Pokemon viability is not constant.
3) Pokemon should change in viability if (and only if) there is evidence of change.

And thus you have the list as it is today, modified from your beloved XY standard into something even better, all because of the power of holding a two-sided discussion in a medium intended for discussion! There's no way we could have achieved such progress if we tried simply just looking at the list.

Now, let's look back at you for a second. You seem to think your opinions are superior despite your outdated-by-years metagame knowledge and demand that no one responds to you because you are obviously right. But I have grave news for you, my friend: this type of behavior runs completely counter to the purpose of an "Internet Forum!" Whether you like it or not, by posting here you tacitly acknowledge that people will be able to debate your ideas because that is the entire purpose of an "Internet Forum!" But fear not! If you take the time to actually learn the new metagame and reflect on your past actions, you can bring more informed ideas to the discussion and enjoy the benefits of productive discourse like your fellow Smogoners.

I swear to the holy mother of Arceus that, if you spend time quality time playing the metagame and contemplating the new rankings, you will become a more valued member of our community as we share in enlightened discussion about our metagame of flaming Godzillas, crescent-wing dragons, and power absorbing deer's everywhere. Happy conversing!

 

[hyw]

Fireburn's hot when he pulls no brakes on the sardonic sarcasm train.

But for real though can we debate whether a terminal punctuation mark goes inside or outside quotation marks at the end of a sentence? The pristine prose got me going but seeing said incorrect grammar usage mid-essay was definitely a huge turn-off, not gonna lie.

 

[ogasian]

I believe MLA dictates that the punctuation mark goes outside the quotation marks.

 

[Maxgepic]

Yeah! I guess I'm just attached to the old thread but looking back at my post's...
Well... I'm the unholy definition of a noob! I'm going elsewhere but Hey! at least be thankful I engagend some conversation.
HOWERVER... just know this, no matter what you do with this thread, MY place is at the old one sooooooooooo... BYE!

 

[Mai Pearl]

don't slam the door on your way out

 

[Maxgepic]

 

[8-BIT Luster]

I thought you were going to stop posting 3 posts ago

 

[Aberforth]

Why are you guys still baiting him, just move on.

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Yeah! I guess I'm just attached to the old thread but looking back at my post's...
Well... I'm the unholy definition of a noob! I'm going elsewhere but Hey! at least be thankful I engagend some conversation.
HOWERVER... just know this, no matter what you do with this thread, MY place is at the old one sooooooooooo... BYE!

Don't feed the troll, guys.

Thoughts on a Hoopa-U rise? It's actually pretty bulky on the special side, and its offenses are just amazing. It's definitely more than just a poor man's Deoxys-A imo.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Don't feed the troll, guys.

Thoughts on a Hoopa-U rise? It's actually pretty bulky on the special side, and its offenses are just amazing. It's definitely more than just a poor man's Deoxys-A imo.

I don't know, honestly. It's so awfully frail on the physical side and its Speed just sucks for an attacker, not to mention it doesn't even have priority to offset the Speed issues. The lack of resistances due to its typing doesn't help its cause much, either. As much as I love Hoopa-U, I'd say keep it in D.

 

[Mai Pearl]

Hoopa is fine in D. I can really only see it being used in tr or to counter team hack stall. The former case is a bit too inconsistent to be practically applied to viability, the later is very case specific for cteaming and shouldn't really be considered. Beyond those cases, I don't see any team that would find it useful over another mon in that slot. D is fine.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

How is Hoopa-U on the same level as trash like Deoxys-N? This guy can blow past bullshit mons with a NP set:

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 905-1065 (139 - 163.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 359-422 (113.2 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dragon: 390-460 (88 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 879-1035 (218.1 - 256.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 313-370 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 497-586 (119.7 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Basically after rocks NP hoopa OHKOes almost the entire metagame, and it doesn't even need a Timid nature considering it outspeeds the most common sets of P-Don and Xerneas anyway. The funny thing is that it often doesn't even need to boost to 2HKO something.

You can even use CB and Specs sets like in OU to break shit like no tomorrow, especially since Pursuit trapping is much less common in Ubers. It's also one of the best Trick Room abusers in the game. No way in hell is Hoopa D-rank

 

[HailFall]

the issue is that like the only thing hoopa sets up on on non-stall teams is support arceus formes but even then it runs the risk of getting smacked with toxic greatly lowering its longevity when combined with LO recoil and is still pretty easy to revenge kill. Trick room isnt very consistent at all and even then hoopa struggles with powerful priority users like ekiller. It might be able to at least do something vs balance but offense fears pretty much nothing from it

 

[Mai Pearl]

Couple of points

1. Pursuit trappers (read: ttar and aegislash) are actually not uncommon on balance and stall. They cover a myriad of mons like the latis, mewtwo forms, and especially mega gengar. Trapping the latter is essentially mandatory for stall to even have a prayer vs parish trap sets.

2. Hoopa only outspeeds the staple geoxern set (provided no creep). Unless your opponent has a stroke and switches directly in on a gunkshot or nasty plot, I can't imagine a scenario in which hoopa will be in safely vs an unboosted geoxern and beat it.

3. Most of the mons you listed are primarily stall mons, which was already established is its "niche." The other two, Ho-oh an klefki, are typically on builds that wont give it more than one kill before revenging it, if that. For example, it can set up vs the arc-w on absolute control, but only after taking a decent chunk from judgment and getting revenged easily by ho-oh. Vs every other member it gets whirlwinded out, limited to one life orb hit, or outright ko'd. I challenge you to provide an example of a team vs which it does more than plot once, kill once, then die on the spot.

4. Baring cb ho-oh, scarfed xern and a few others, choice items are not as good in ubers. I could maybe see a life orb offensive set working on occasion, but the lack of speed and loss of move choice definitely rules out banded/specs imo. And scarf is too weak.

5. Even on trick room, I have trouble justifying hoopa over other mons. Trick room's niche is its ability to give bulky stall and balance breakers offense breaking power by giving artificial speed control, similar to webs. This is why mons like sd 3 attack pdon, offensive pogre, and slow sd arc forms shine in it. These mons can afford to be in trick room because they can take priority, take hits if they need to, and even set up if they need to. Hoopa can't take any priority baring giratina's sneak after rocks, and without set up can't ohko much at all without being revenged. Not to mention that this is already a shaky style because of how carefully you have to play the turns.

D might be a bit low, I'll admit, but definitely no higher than C- or C. It's role is just too minuscule and situational to make it worth a slot on the majority of teams.

 

[Aquaslash]

Aw man, all that stuff about Hoopa U is disheartening to read. That's one of the coolest mons they've made in recent years imo. Is it complete dead weight on any team or is it Mega Mawile tier where if you're really desperate to use it, you can try to build something around it?

Also forgive me if this is not the proper place for this post. i've not been around in a year or so