Ladder Tier Shift ORAS [Swift Swim Unbanned; Check Post #95 for some info]

[DreamBig]

You're forgetting several things with Reuniclus. First off, it can run Colburr berry to live dark attacks to retaliate. Secondly, it is not as crippled by knock off in this way. Finally, it can run life orb in a non-set up set to much greater success, giving it much more variability than duosion. All of these are actually pretty important individually, and combine to make Reuniclus substantially better imo.

Hmm, I didn't actually forget these things! I don't think you were thorough in reading my first post, or in your thinking here. Let me explain...

Duosion can ALSO hold a colbur berry, and would retaliate harder (as shown in calcs). SOMETIMES it'd be MORE beneficial to run Eviolite regardless, as eviolite will still make you take .67% of the damage vs .5, AND where colbur is exhausted eviolite remains, lest the move was knock off! ;D
I don't understand this counter arguement because as I said Colburr is clearly an item that both monsters have the ability to use for the same effect, so that makes it hard for me to see what you're getting at???

Knock off I can show calcs, which is actually a counter point I was HOPING to be brought up, i guess that debate class in college paid off! Reuniclus DIES to the knock offs, while Duosion SURVIVES and strikes! Generally OFC the POINT is NEVER to allow an eviolite to just get knocked off, but shit happens and trades occur!

HOWEVER taking that knock off and losing that eviolite you're still taking .67 (due to a 1.5 increase to defense) damage from the attack that turn! You can often survive where Reuniclus simply faints! =D This counter argument was exactly what I needed to show the relevant calcs from Knock off outright killing reuniclus. This is what really sets Duosion apart, and makes him superior to Reuniclus! In battle this is what you REALLY notice when it comes to Duosion, too. Glad you brought it up.

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 176 HP / 80 Def Reuniclus: 439-517 (105.7 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 176 HP / 80 Def Eviolite Duosion: 322-382 (90.7 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

What if you just wanted to get the fuck out though???? >.< RUN AWAYYY!!!!
(I don't know how you make the calc show them switching so I just manually changed pursuit base power to 80, as if they switched to avoid the knock off.)
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Pursuit vs. 176 HP / 80 Def Reuniclus: 361-429 (86.9 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Pursuit vs. 176 HP / 80 Def Eviolite Duosion: 265-315 (74.6 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 176 HP / 80 Def Reuniclus: 366-432 (88.1 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 176 HP / 80 Def Eviolite Duosion: 270-318 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

REMINDER: the EVs used were simply used to make def and special def identical, generally I think Duosion will run something like that, where it adds both defenses because of eviolite's stat changing property. Running less hp and more actual bulk is beneficial when each 8 evs is 3 defensive stats rather than 2hp. Reuniclus isn't going to have 80 defense and it's NOT going to take a hit that well... 252 HP always gets it KOed... so it just worked out that 80 def has this Reuniclus living things it NORMALLY won't. That's something that makes Reuniclus seem randomly more bulky, where it isn't. Either way, the investments are identical in evs and meaningless, over all)
Here's hp252/def4 just to prove that Reuniclus is generally going to get hit harder than I am showing.
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 484-569 (111.5 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 398-471 (91.7 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 398-470 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Also: I showed the life orb non set up as the first set of calcs, as well, netting KO's and 2hkos on defensive monsters like mola and blissey where Reuniclus is not capable, meaning it would sustain more hits as a slow monster, and making it less viable even with the life orb magic guard set than Duosion is.

Basically, if you do a thorough inspection of the facts as well as play a lot of matches with the two there's not much Reuniclus actually has other than Focus blast, which it is too slow to really use before it is OHKOed, regardless.

I really hope to see tier shift end up uncovering nasty little monsters like Duosion, just waiting for a chance to be competitive somewhere! =p

Currently play testing another monster but with not much luck (i can't even get this thing to work for me other than in certain niches), and it's ACTUALLY your name, Lapras. Odd coincidence!

 

[DreamBig]

I've admittedly used a lot of Uxie since my play testing with Duosion and reuniclus has ended.

Uxie - RU | Psychic | Levitate | 85/85/140/85/140/105 (640 BST)
WeakVs: Bug Dark Ghost
Resists: Fighting, Psychic
Immune: Ground (levitate)

Stealth Rocks, Heal Bell, U Turn, Knock off, Calm Mind, Yawn, Toxic, Foul play, T wave, Power-Up Punch, Trick, Light Screen, Reflect...

Seems like Uxie can fit onto a lot of teams without much help. It pairs OKAY with Blissey, loving a few wishes to be passed, and freeing up heal bell's slot on bliss for other things, or vice versa.

Nominating for a rank is sorta rough FOR ME because utility Poke'mon are harder for me to justify and validate my point with actual math, from calcs, and I like using the numbers and comparisons of them to really show usefulness...

I do believe Uxie can fit on a lot of teams and don't see it nominated already anywhere else, so I just wanna go with A + for Uxie? Seems to fit anywhere it wants to go, needs little help, can be utlity, scarf/band/specs tricker, pivot, and even a win condition calm mind monster.

It seems like it does need to be on here, because it does feel extremely viable.

 

[Jajoken]

Can we avoid ranking every bulky Psychic and its mom to the A ranks? Even if a few of them are good, unless they ALL have completely valid niches compared to each other, only rank the very best ones, if that. They still have most of the same problems as standard.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Alright The Immortal quietly gave me control of this (I was wondering why I suddenly gained 3 posts) so I'd like to make some announcements about the state of this thread and TS as a whole:

So to start off, the main subject of this thread's discussion has been the VR. As one could probably tell from a distance, it's atrocious in its current form. We absolutely lumped half the metagame into A- due to the lacking playerbase and some personal biases. Because of this fact, it's in obvious need of a revamp, which is what will happen! So far it's myself, Kingslayer2779, LaxLapras and jeran that will be heading the revamp. If you think you could help out, and you have a decent claim as a good Tier Shift player (Grand Slam could be a big one), feel free to PM/VM me!

In the meantime on that: what's been looking good from Conquest? I know that tour is an absolute mess in terms of viable teams (or lack thereof) in the actual metagame, but I've heard chatter of some intriguing looking Pokemon! A big one that HeadsILoseTailsYouWin seemed to want to look into was RestTalk Eviolite Klang, which I feel could be a good stall wincon. In addition, LaxLapras brought up the idea of a Misdreavus + Mega-Audino team, which we both tried our hands at making (mine was a little stallier but eh). Do you guys have any ideas on teams with that core?

e: Also, OP will be getting an overhaul tonight most likely

 

[Jajoken]

From Conquest experience (either from using them, facing them in battle, or just watching replays), these are the untiered NFEs that need further testing/ranking:

Sliggoo: Strong win-con with Curse, but also has underexplored potential as a pure tank. 88/73/133 is very impressive, nearly Chansey-levels of special bulk:
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 195-230 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 36.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 149-177 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Unlike Chansey, however, it has respectable 95/103/80 offensive stats and a varied movepool. Its real downside is its reliance on Rest, but afaik there are a plethora of viable Wish users in TS like Alomamola, so maybe its worth trying on that type of team build.

Servine: Even after TS boosts, you might wonder why someone would use this over Serperior, but I think they have distinct niches, and IMO Servine's may be more valuable. Serperior obviously appreciates the higher Speed tier to beat 110s, and Dragon Pulse is solid coverage. Everything else? Servine's bulk is 80/95/95, which outclasses Serperior even without Eviolite. With Eviolite?
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Servine: 240-284 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OU's premier revenge killer can't OHKO with no bulk investment with the default Jolly SD set. It's not even a roll: it literally can't OHKO. This makes Servine hard to deal with on slower build, as it can handily deal with most priority. True, its easier to outspeed, but 103 Speed is still really good. Plus, with 80 Special Attack, you'll be out-damaging your evolution too. As I understand it, TS is a more stall-oriented meta than OU, so as a stallbreaker, I believe that Servine outclasses Serperior. On pure Hyper Offense, Serperior is probably superior (lol) because of its desirable Speed tier, but Servine should be ranked IMO.

Zweilous: I don't know if this will end up having a true niche, but it seems like it has potential in a variety of roles. As a SpD wall with Eviolite and Rest + Dragon Tail, its unique Dark/Dragon typing covers a lot of special attacking types (Psychic, Fire, Electric, Water, Grass). As a Choice Band user, its damage output is comparable to Durant as Hustle user. As a Choice Scarf...I'm not sure, but I nearly lost to it! Basically, 92/105/90/85/90/78 gives you the leeway to try a variety of roles. IMO the SpD set is the one to try first:
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Zweilous: 170-200 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Zweilous: 326-386 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Zweilous: 304-360 (78.3 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Klang: It's already been mentioned. Seems decent, though IMO its not that much better then Klingklang as they both get similar boosts Obviously the Eviolite bulk is desirable, but I'd test them both to see which is better.

Electabuzz: Probably the best fast Electric. I forget if it was ranked before, but it should be. Eviolite and Life Orb are both worthy sets.

Others that worked well for me but are probably outclassed: Floette, Murkrow, Spritzee, Skrelp, Chinchou, Grotle (lol)

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Electabuzz: Probably the best fast Electric. I forget if it was ranked before, but it should be. Eviolite and Life Orb are both worthy sets.

I've spent a lot of times contemplating the best Electric for the metagame, so here's a decently comprehensive list of niches of each, in no particular order:

Viable Electrics:

Electabuzz - NFE (PU) | Electric | Static / Vital Spirit (H) | 85/103/77/115/105/125 (610 BST)

Since the +20 boosts have come around to PU, what was previously considered a shitmon has ended up being one of the more consistent fast Electrics in the tier. Sporting a great 125 speed, respectable 85/77/105 bulk which can be enhanced by Eviolite, and a decent 115 SpA to hit off of. Coverage wise it gets some alright options, Focus Blast hits Steels and Rocks harder, plus can do decent chunks to Ground types. Psychic is a good option to nail Mega-Venusaur and Amoongus, but does little else.

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Raichu - PU | Electric | Static / Lightning Rod (H) | 80/110/75/110/100/130 (605 BST)

Slightly frailer than Buzz, and slightly weaker, but has a more useful ability synergy-wise for teams (Lightning Rod) and has a better speed tier. Not to mention it gets the weird Pikachu moves, like Surf, Grass Knot, Nuzzle if you're feeling cheeky. May be a better fit for some offensive teams whereas Ebuzz is the generally better Balance option.

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Manectric - NU | Electric | Static / Lightning Rod / Minus (H) | 85/90/75/120/75/120 (565 BST)

Kinda inferior to Buzz in most senses, the main reason I even mention this is it's access to Overheat, which is a very nice coverage option vs grass types.

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Jolteon - RU | Electric | Volt Absorb / Quick Feet (H) | 75/75/70/120/105/140 (585 BST)

Highest speed of the lot, and tied for highest SpA, however it gets absolute piss for coverage. Other than Hidden Powers, it's movepool gives it Shadow Ball and Signal Beam. That's it.

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Rotom-Frost - PU | Electric/Ice | Levitate | 70/85/127/125/127/106 (640 BST)

Rotom-Frost is one of the more intriguing Rotom formes imo, as it's typing is insane offensively. Blizzard + Tbolt coverage is very nearly unresisted, and even resists don't stomach Blizzard too well. This one is something I have yet to experiment with myself, so feel free to add input.

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Electric type "don'ts":

Pikachu - NFE | Electric | Static / Lightning Rod (H) | 55/75/60/70/70/110 (440 BST)

Frail, weak without Light Ball which makes it susceptible to Knock Off, has a middling Speed Tier for Tier Shift. On the ups it has good coverage but there's just not enough reason to try.

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Zebstrika - PU | Electric | Lightning Rod / Motor Drive / Sap Sipper (H) | 95/120/83/100/83/136 (617 BST)

Unless you just really dig Sap Sipper electrics I can't find justification to running this. Worse Manectric by most means

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Pika clones

Statistically worse than Pikachu, a bad mon. Add 2 and 2


Feel free to correct me or add to what I said!

 

[Jajoken]

I'd add the higher tier "fast Electrics" (which I arbitrarily define as Electric types with >100 Speed and Special Attack that often utilize Volt Switch).

No longer Speed ties with base 100s due to its drop to UU. Flying typing is useful, as is Roost and Defog. Volt Switch generally doesn't fit into its moveset.

Outclassed by Electabuzz except for Sub + Calm Mind. ;_;

Higher Speed, but the biggest draw is Intimidate, which makes a useful pickup for VoltTurn.

Better movepool and damage output than its pre-evo, but much worse bulk and Speed. Could be alright.

Outclassed outside of Sticky Web.

Might be worth looking at, simply because a boosted 114 Speed puts it ahead of the 110 tier, which it previously missed out on. Dry Skin + Hyper Voice, along with Surf/Grass Knot coverage is a decent niche.

Probably outclassed by other forms and/or other Electric/Flying types.

Very viable, mostly based on Nasty Plot and Prankster. Therian is considered a better Volt Switch user.

No.
I'd say Electabuzz is still the best all-around pick (especially for a Volt Switcher) while Thundurus-I is the best booster with the best utility in Prankster. The problem with the other picks you listed is that generally their Speed tiers aren't valuable enough to use except in dealing with certain threats. Electabuzz's 125 covers pretty much everything. Manectric is still probably outclassed by its Mega because its faster and has Intimidate, even if there's a slight power drop off (accounting for Life Orb, etc.) I'd be interested in seeing Rotom-Frost though -- the initial downside I see is that as a Volt Switch user, being weak to Stealth Rock isn't ideal. Still, 106 Speed tier is pretty good, and its coverage is very solid.

 

[leng loi]

I'd like to post my thoughts here on VR in TS, and why every time we try to do it we come up short or create something that just isn't representative of the actual meta.

We simply don't have enough people that play at a high enough level or often enough. This translates into a problem in two ways. There is not accurate representation because there are things that have either not been played with or barely experimented with, meaning that things that should be ranked higher are ranked lower or not ranked at all. Secondly, having so few people that actually play TS on a dedicated basis means that certain mons ranks are overblown by people that use them often. One example is how we had Sharpedo at S for so long. We figured it was so great against offense (it's still pretty good) because it matched up well against most of our preferred archetypes of offense. I've also noticed that since the community that mains TS is so small, we tend to mooch ideas off of one another, ending up with very similar teambuilding patterns. I've noticed that Peef and DTK especially have very similar ways of building teams, and they are both fairly similar to KS (based on what few teams he actually builds). I can't really say the same for anyone else because these are the three guys I play the most, but seeing as these 3 all used to be or are part of the VR team/council it's fairly evident that stuff like this, where mons are bandwagoned, happened a lot.

So, in order to have an accurate VR we need both a larger playerbase and a more diverse, talented playerbase, neither of which are happening very fast. Conquest is definitely helping, but I'd like to emphasize (as I have like a billion times before) that if you care about developing TS, we need people that will post a LOT. Momentum in this thread is the key to bringing in new talent.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

So Smogon's big quarterly Tier Shift has occurred this month! It's a pretty small shift for standard tiers this quarter, but for Tier Shift this is gonna be a pretty drastic change in metagame pace.

The Rises:

NU to OU

This is by far the biggest change to the status quo of Tier Shift in ages. With stall's rise in OU due to the banning of Hoopa-Unbound, Quagsire has been able to capitalize on a more balanced metagame. In Tier Shift, the already viable fat fish gained +15 to every stat, bringing it's stats to 110/100/100/80/80/50. Coupled with Unaware, Quagsire was a top threat in Tier Shift (I personally was going to vie for it to be A+ or S rank on the VR Overhaul; more on that later btw). Now that it gets no boosts, Quagsire, while still finding itself exceptionally bulky with good typing and ability, has a much harder time sustaining hits from ultra powerful attackers created by TS.

RU to OU

Same case as Quagsire, but a slightly less drastic stat drop. This now has more convincing competition from Mega Venusaur as a stall mon, as before only Venu's offensive set was worth running.

UU to OU

The least awful of Stall's hits taken, Zapdos got a nice little bulk boost from TS and could hold up as one of the better stall defoggers. Harder to justify over stuff like Mandibuzz now.

The Drops:

OU to UU

Sporting 105 stats around everything, Celebi can fill it's usual variety of roles more effectively. SD Pass Celebi + Mega Sharpedo seems like a potential good core, try building with it!

UU to RU

This has potential to be a terrifying cleaner with Moxie and +10 in every stat. Need some experience before I can say of its viability though.

RU to NU

This thing is disgustingly bulky, and can somewhat fill the void of Quagsire's loss. Doesn't have Unaware obviously but the typing is there and it can take down bulky waters.

Things I'm not quite sure of the result (feel free to post ideas!):

Aggron moved from RU to NU
Conkeldurr moved from OU to UU
Smeargle moved from RU to NU
Mawile moved from NU to PU
Sylveon moved from OU to UU


Regarding the VR Overhaul:

This metagame shift is pretty huge. Stall and balance took huge hits in viability, while Offense is rising. We'll have to see how these changes impact the metagame before going on with the overhaul, even though we just started. In a few weeks, the overhaul will continue as planned but until then, give us some ideas of how these changes effect things!

 

[Laxpras]

Here's a cheeky thought that may be great for a more offensive meta:

Aggron @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Heavy Slam
- Fire Punch
- Superpower

It's a slightly weaker, but much bulkier version of Tyrantrum (with the added bonus of a surprise factor)! If the meta turns more offensive, this might actually have a niche over Tyrantrum, in that it can take more hits and retaliate with a powerful move, whereas Tyrantrum has to be more worried about what outspeeds it.

Also Gastrodon is going to be a beast just a heads up

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Quagsire has risen to OU
What does this mean for the metagame?

Stall has always been a huge presence in the Tier Shift Metagame and Quagsire has often been a vital part of several successful stall builds. With the dramatic loss of all of its boosts, Quagsire is now nowhere near as effective as it used to be. There are set up sweepers that can now beat Quagsire regardless of Unaware. This is NU Quagsire:

252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 179-212 (42.2 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is Ou Quagsire:

252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Thats a big deal. Quagsire can't preform the same role it did anymore so teams and strategies will have to adapt. Stall doesn't just have a blanket check to set up anymore. It has to find some of preventing set up from occurring. This probably means we will see more aggressive Stall teams with mons that can actually dish out damage and put pressure on offense. The super durdley stall teams we've come to know from the past are likely not going to be much of a thing anymore.

Can Stall teams fill the void left by Quagsire with something else?

Short answer: No. Gastrodon does a decent job of providing the typing and the ability to deal with bulk waters but lacks unaware which was really the crucial bit. Wooper isn't quite as badly outclassed anymore. It might be worth testing but i really don't like the idea of Knock off weak Physical walls.
252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Wooper: 156-185 (44 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO.
Clefable also has unaware but its just not very bulky. In OU it has just enough bulk to be amazing, in TS where a whole bunch of wallbreaker get buffs its just not same mon. So Stall players are just going to have to muddle on with just Quagsire and Clefable. Now its not that either are really "bad mons," they can still preform as set up checks. Its just that Stall teams will have to adapt to not having a blanket answer to most set up.

Does this mean Offense or Balance gets to be the best playstyle now?

Too early to tell tbh. I've seen plenty of good stall teams without Quagsire before the tier shifts. Its possible Stall just adapts and remains dominant. We will have to see.

 

[leng loi]

Guys Quag going to OU isn't that big of a deal for Stall.

On stall pre-drops, Quag was only used to beat the Phys attackers that Sableye couldn't, and it still does. It was used to beat shit like ZardX and BD Azu, which it is currently use in OU to check. Point is, quag still does the same thing, stall just needs to be built better to minimize the switchins that stuff like banded heracross get or utilize a broader variety of physical walls (stuff like Cress that I haven't seen since Adrian was with us) to get the job done. Chansey and a back up spdef check to random stalbreakers the team is weak to are usually enough anyways, so 4 physdef mons including quag and Sableye can easily get their job done imo. Too tired to write a long post but I wanted to post this early to contain the floodgates of y'all (even you Peef Rimgar ) overhyping a supposed "stall nerf"

tl;dr: quag still checks the same shit, stall doesn't have any crazy new problems, calm yourselves

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

For myself, the main things of note among the other mons were Sylveon and Smeargle. Sylveon is a nice cleric tha isn't really harmed by Koff or fighting moves, and thus normaly has a decent niche over Chansey. 5 stats probably won't increase its bulk that much, but it's definitely less niche a pick. The specs set might be decently powerful, but I doubt it'll be enough to really be worthwhile over, say, clefable, who has actual coverage.
Smeargle could either be a huge waste of potential or a solid mon. It's finally hit the solid base 90 speed tier, letting it do things like stop escadrill from spinning, and it's the fastest spore/dv user in the metagame. It also has hazards, skill swap to annoy Sableye, and every other utility move in the world. It's stats are still a far cry from amazing, though, and it has that mediocre normal typing.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

For myself, the main things of note among the other mons were Sylveon and Smeargle. Sylveon is a nice cleric tha isn't really harmed by Koff or fighting moves, and thus normaly has a decent niche over Chansey. 5 stats probably won't increase its bulk that much, but it's definitely less niche a pick. The specs set might be decently powerful, but I doubt it'll be enough to really be worthwhile over, say, clefable, who has actual coverage.
Smeargle could either be a huge waste of potential or a solid mon. It's finally hit the solid base 90 speed tier, letting it do things like stop escadrill from spinning, and it's the fastest spore/dv user in the metagame. It also has hazards, skill swap to annoy Sableye, and every other utility move in the world. It's stats are still a far cry from amazing, though, and it has that mediocre normal typing.

Sylveon is still immensly hard to justify in Tier Shift as anything but a Specs mon due to the existence of Unaware Clef and Aromatisse. The Specs set, however, does look interesting in TS. Hyper Voice finds itself getting a lot of 2HKOs on any non Steel types pretty much, and Sylveon can run Baton Pass to get momentum on them switching in. Specs Sylveon with Baton Pass + Dugtrio or Magneton sounds like a cute team to build tbh

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Sylveon is still immensly hard to justify in Tier Shift as anything but a Specs mon due to the existence of Unaware Clef and Aromatisse. The Specs set, however, does look interesting in TS. Hyper Voice finds itself getting a lot of 2HKOs on any non Steel types pretty much, and Sylveon can run Baton Pass to get momentum on them switching in. Specs Sylveon with Baton Pass + Dugtrio or Magneton sounds like a cute team to build tbh

Oh definitely, it'll be hard o justify. There are a lot of new TS fighting types, though, and Koff is just as deadly as it always has been (being weak to bisharp keeps the latter one from really letting Sylveon shine, although at least bisharp can't switch in). It's also a lot bulkier than Clefable while being far less passive than Aromatisse, and has a couple of other nice options for its moveslots over the latter as well. Not enough, in all likelihood, for it to really shine, but a niche.

 

[Ivy]

I last read about this in the old thread. Does Shedinja still receive HP boosts and have normally calculated HP?

 

[The Immortal]

I last read about this in the old thread. Does Shedinja still receive HP boosts and have normally calculated HP?

Shedinja's HP is fixed at 1 no matter what its base HP is. For a long time Shedinja's mechanic was incorrectly implemented on PS!, in terms of OMs at least, which led to TS taking its HP boost as a correct mechanic. I fixed it a while back though.

tl;dr - no

 

[Ivy]

Shedinja's HP is fixed at 1 no matter what its base HP is. For a long time Shedinja's mechanic was incorrectly implemented on PS!, in terms of OMs at least, which led to TS taking its HP boost as a correct mechanic. I fixed it a while back though.

tl;dr - no

Cool, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Well the meta has simmered down, and in light of the recent-ish changes to how ability tiering works, I'm gonna make a pretty big announcement: Swift Swim is no longer banned. To be perfectly honest, this ban absolutely shouldn't have gone through. The council behind it was working with inside bias, and this came out in the vote's result. If this is seen as a problem going forward, a suspect or ban is on the table for the components of rain otherwise. Swift Swim will likely stay, though, as there are much more sensible ways to nerf rain.

What do you think of this? What pokemon come across as rain threats? Let me know here!

Tagging Eevee General and The Immortal for dex info and ladder update, respectively

 

[Laxpras]

TBH not sure I agree with this, back to these damn threats

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Giga Drain

Its two only common counters that I can think of are Alomomola and Gastrodon, both of which it can beat.

4 SpA Life Orb Kabutops Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 239-286 (52.4 - 62.7%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 120 HP / 136+ Def Alomomola: 399-472 (76.5 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It can run lum berry to better deal with Alomomola, not worrying about a scald burn on setup.

Also its rain loving teammate absolutely tears through these checks

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast

These two deal with each others checks, and idk if Kabutops can even be checked that effectively.

I would like to consider at least a ban on damp rock :~)

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Well the meta has simmered down, and in light of the recent-ish changes to how ability tiering works, I'm gonna make a pretty big announcement: Swift Swim is no longer banned. To be perfectly honest, this ban absolutely shouldn't have gone through. The council behind it was working with inside bias, and this came out in the vote's result. If this is seen as a problem going forward, a suspect or ban is on the table for the components of rain otherwise. Swift Swim will likely stay, though, as there are much more sensible ways to nerf rain.

What do you think of this? What pokemon come across as rain threats? Let me know here!

Tagging Eevee General and The Immortal for dex info and ladder update, respectively

I'm completely against this btw, which is why it never happened while i was in charge. Imo there was no desire or arguments made for a retest and therefore the meta should have stayed as is. I'm looking forward to the retest and correcting this mistake.

 

[Bynine]

this seems like a fun format to get into, and i'd love to be able to contribute. i just honestly don't know where to start when building a team since there are so many options available. does anyone have any ideas?

 

[Peef Rimgar]

this seems like a fun format to get into, and i'd love to be able to contribute. i just honestly don't know where to start when building a team since there are so many options available. does anyone have any ideas?

The best way to learn any meta is to just start with sample teams to learn the best threats! Any of the following resources could give you some teams to start with:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/other-metagames-team-dump.3572520/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/om-teambuilding-shop-v3-new-services.3546971/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-metagames-now-accepting-omotm-teams.3539715/

 

[Mystletainn]

Hey everyone! Sorry for ghosting for so long, it's becoming an unfortunate habit of mine. But alas, I've returned home safely from a grueling college semester. Glad to see there are still names I remember giving a good whack back in the day. ;) It looks like there's been some pretty substantial changes to the meta since I've been gone (where did the actual rankings themselves go btw?), so I might need to do a bit of reorienting myself (help possibly appreciated), but I'll be around for the summer to help out with my favorite OM. :D

 

[DreamBig]

I have a question about the game Mehanics...

If you MEGA EvoLVE DOES GARCHOMP BECOME A UU BOOSTED MONSTER?

I was not sure how UU megas worked, if at all =p for a sandstorm team I am really looking for any help!