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Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter etern
- Start date
Gastrodon doesn't check Mesprit, Rotom or Samurott well at all, because of Life Orb Psychic/Energy Ball/Trick, Trick/Will-o-Wisp and HP Grass (respectively). Even Lanturn will just cripple you with Toxic and Gastro has no way to alleviate that. And it is comparable to Quag in that they share the same typing and are both physical walls with reliable recovery (unless you want to run SpDef Gastro, but that checks even less mons than PhysDef, besides being outclassed by Lanturn). I don't know why people keep repeating that they fulfill different roles because I could just run Water Absorb Quag and it would literally be a Gastrodon with a little more Atk/Def and less SpAtk/SpDef. But I don't because Unaware is just a better ability, and Quag is by extension a better mon (and it was ranked somewhere in B, so Gastro should be ranked lower).
I mean it really doesn't have a lot of niches; it can wall a couple of mons given they don't run Grass coverage but that's really it. It's outclassed by Lanturn as an Electric and Fire resist because Lanturn doesn't get maimed by HP Grass + has utility in Heal Bell and slow Volt Switch. As a bulky Ground, Steelix and Rhydon are better as they provide SR and more useful resistances. It's true that Gastro can check Steelix, Aggron and Kabutops well, but Quag could do the same thing and much more and it was ranked B. I'm just looking at it and to me it doesn't make sense to rank Gastro that high.
I believe the reason Gastrodon is more favored now, compared to Quagsire before it, is because of its more well-rounded stats. Physically defensive Gastrodon takes ~2.8% more from physical attacks than Quagsire, but takes special hits ~11-13% better than Quagsire does. This allows Gastrodon to handle most of the same unboosted physical attackers that Quagsire can beat, but also can handle the likes of unboosted / non-Grass move Mesprit (by far the more common variants than LO / Energy Ball Mesprit) and non-HP Grass Charizard a lot more comfortably than Quagsire.
Meanwhile, Gastrodon also has just slightly more offensive presence than Quagsire, primarily because of the stronger Scald. This may not seem too relevant since both Scalds are uninvested, but an example would be Gastro's Scald being able to cleanly 2HKO bulky SD Charizard whereas Quagsire's has no chance to do so. Most people's issue with Quag is that it is really passive, and while Gastrodon isn't that much stronger, having a Scald that does ~7% more damage means Gastro needs less turns to rack up damage alongside burn on its checks.
Not having Unaware does suck, but Gastrodon does have access to Clear Smog which, while not as foolproof as Quagsire's Unaware, can still help to curb many of the same setup sweepers or at least not be setup fodder itself. Clear Smog Gastro can still shut down SD Samurott and non-Grass Knot Barbaracle (by inching them into Earth Power range, if they aren't already), and halts the advances of the likes of Musharna, Mega Audino, Sliggoo, etc. Gastrodon may not be able to beat bulky setup sweepers 1v1 very comfortably (though Gastro can fare better if it is the Curse variant), but it can still have teammates to take on those mons; Skuntank already makes a great partner for Gastro as it not only beats Mush and MAudino, but also checks Grass-types for it.
Probably the bigger reason Quagsire wasn't as appealing during its time in NU is because its blanket-checking of setup sweepers is not nearly as necessary, whereas Gastrodon offers more well-rounded benefits and is a bit more self-sufficient, especially with Storm Drain offering both a Water immunity and a potential way to make Gastro more noticeable offensively. With that said, I'm not sure if I can agree with A- either, as croatiangamer's points about Gastro stopping not as much as it would like are also valid. I'd say B+ is more suitable for Gastro in the meantime.
Meanwhile, Gastrodon also has just slightly more offensive presence than Quagsire, primarily because of the stronger Scald. This may not seem too relevant since both Scalds are uninvested, but an example would be Gastro's Scald being able to cleanly 2HKO bulky SD Charizard whereas Quagsire's has no chance to do so. Most people's issue with Quag is that it is really passive, and while Gastrodon isn't that much stronger, having a Scald that does ~7% more damage means Gastro needs less turns to rack up damage alongside burn on its checks.
Not having Unaware does suck, but Gastrodon does have access to Clear Smog which, while not as foolproof as Quagsire's Unaware, can still help to curb many of the same setup sweepers or at least not be setup fodder itself. Clear Smog Gastro can still shut down SD Samurott and non-Grass Knot Barbaracle (by inching them into Earth Power range, if they aren't already), and halts the advances of the likes of Musharna, Mega Audino, Sliggoo, etc. Gastrodon may not be able to beat bulky setup sweepers 1v1 very comfortably (though Gastro can fare better if it is the Curse variant), but it can still have teammates to take on those mons; Skuntank already makes a great partner for Gastro as it not only beats Mush and MAudino, but also checks Grass-types for it.
Probably the bigger reason Quagsire wasn't as appealing during its time in NU is because its blanket-checking of setup sweepers is not nearly as necessary, whereas Gastrodon offers more well-rounded benefits and is a bit more self-sufficient, especially with Storm Drain offering both a Water immunity and a potential way to make Gastro more noticeable offensively. With that said, I'm not sure if I can agree with A- either, as croatiangamer's points about Gastro stopping not as much as it would like are also valid. I'd say B+ is more suitable for Gastro in the meantime.
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Aggron to B+
Gastrodon to B+
Smeargle to B
Mawile to C+
The nomination for Archeops was fairly close, so more discussion on that would be good.
Gastrodon to B+
Smeargle to B
Mawile to C+
The nomination for Archeops was fairly close, so more discussion on that would be good.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet or not, but Quagsire can be effectively removed from B-, since it rose to OU.
Bolts edit: done
Bolts edit: done
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PrinceLucian
Banned deucer.
C down to C-
-I liked rampardos in previous meta since it had a niche in being a decent choice scarf user/revenge killer with pretty nice atk and good coverage, it also outsped base 110s which is important speed tier.
Unfortunately, with new addition in tier being gastrodon and aggron, rampardos cant really shine anymore since aggron is probably the strongest wallbreaker in tier rn and every balanced/bulky offensive team needs a hard check for it, which means a rock resist that deals with rampardos even easier. Gastrodon is also a new pokemon that fits pretty nicely on balanced builds and walls it.
B- up to B
-Torterra has kinda been overshadowed by other stealth rock users such as steelix and rhydon, but being able to wall a good proportion of meta like tauros and kangaskhan that cant even 2 Ko it, shell smash barbaracle and DD rhydon, as well as being a great hard check to aggron will make torterra a nice addition to balanced teams. Its also a rocker with good offensive presence, reliable recovery and strong stab moves ,it can pull off an offensive set with RP, but defensive one has better potential in this meta.
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Love Passive mons... But on a more serious note I think it's pretty good right now. Steel/Psychic typing alone is pretty good typing but it also offers levitate additionally giving it a ground immunity allowing it to take on threats like Rhydon, Kangaskhan, Archeops, Abomasnow, Steelix, Torterra, Piloswine and check most other targets it's not weak to typing wise. It's good Stealth Rock setter and you can even use Skill Swap to get past Xatu teams if you hate them that much. Using a specially defensive or physically is fine as it works both ways.(I prefer it being physically more bulky most of the time)
Psywave is handy which makes up for it's awful offensive stats (basically a shaky seismic toss) but it's able to deal decent amounts of damage to unexpected targets. If you have a rock setter already it has a few other options.. like running a Calm Mind set with Flash Cannon, Toxic and Rest or just a regular rest talk set with Psywave/Toxic allowing it to annoy things for the rest of match and being able to stay healthy.
Here's a replay showing off Broznor in a room tour match http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-375763635
It didn't have to do a whole lot this game, however Broznor is able to catch Ferroseed with a few sneaky Psywaves and keeping Kangaskhan in check.
Also note that Bronzor can avoid a 3HKO from CB Head Smash from Aggron.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 94-111 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 15.9% chance to 3HKO
Fire Punch exists but it always avoids a 2HKO and can potentially rest of the damage and then there's the situation of locking yourself into Fire Punch.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 126-150 (39.6 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
show some love for Bronzor
Here is another Steel mon nom.
<- what Aggron does every battle
Aggron to A-
This thing is strong. Yes, we already know this, but it really can't be overstated just how powerful this thing is. CB is really great once you can get rid of an opposing Steelix, or you can predict its switch in and 2HKO with Low Kick, but I feel other sets also have very good merits. Magnet Rise is also a really nice set against defensive teams that rely on things like Steelix and Torterra as their primary Rock resist, as the rest of their defensive mons usually are 2HKO'd by a weaker, yet still powerful Stone Plate Head Smash.
252 Atk Stone Plate Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Stone Plate Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Stone Plate Aggron Head Smash vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 210-247 (48.4 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Stone Plate Aggron Head Smash vs. 40 HP / 156 Def Lanturn: 322-381 (80.2 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Stone Plate Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 163-193 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(You can also run Adamant, which secures more 2HKOs, but I like Jolly for Torterra)
Other sets that are also notable, but not as good as the above are SubPunch, SR+3 Attacks(pretty nice for offensive teams pressed for a rocker), and even resist berry lure sets like Chople and Shuca have some potential. Looking at A-, I feel a comparison could be made between Aurorus and Aggron, both are extremely powerful Choiced spammers with pretty shitty defensive typing. Granted Aurorus has a bit more versatility and speed, but I still feel Aggron is up there with its wallbreaking potential and big struggle to switch in on offense(Most Fighting and offensive Ground types are 2HKO'd at worst.). Notable answers to Aggron like Poliwrath and Gastrodon aren't that hard to deal with either, with both being pretty passive and in Poli's case, being easy to overwhelm and force to Rest, while Gastrodon really doesn't like being statused, and can also be overwhelmed with how much it is expected to check(Fire, Rock, Steel, Poison, Electric, AND Water types, most of each type having an effective way to deal with it). Of course, Aggron is still with major flaws, specifically its speed and 4x weakness to Fighting and Ground, making it pretty easy to lure, and causing it to not be able to check a lot of high tier threats. However, I still think Aggron was ranked just a subrank too low, when you consider the immense pressure it can put on a team when it gets a free switch.
Plus we talked about this on PS! chat earlier today and everyone seemed to be in agreement that Aggron should move.
Aggron to A-
This thing is strong. Yes, we already know this, but it really can't be overstated just how powerful this thing is. CB is really great once you can get rid of an opposing Steelix, or you can predict its switch in and 2HKO with Low Kick, but I feel other sets also have very good merits. Magnet Rise is also a really nice set against defensive teams that rely on things like Steelix and Torterra as their primary Rock resist, as the rest of their defensive mons usually are 2HKO'd by a weaker, yet still powerful Stone Plate Head Smash.
252 Atk Stone Plate Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Stone Plate Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Stone Plate Aggron Head Smash vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 210-247 (48.4 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Stone Plate Aggron Head Smash vs. 40 HP / 156 Def Lanturn: 322-381 (80.2 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Stone Plate Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 163-193 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(You can also run Adamant, which secures more 2HKOs, but I like Jolly for Torterra)
Other sets that are also notable, but not as good as the above are SubPunch, SR+3 Attacks(pretty nice for offensive teams pressed for a rocker), and even resist berry lure sets like Chople and Shuca have some potential. Looking at A-, I feel a comparison could be made between Aurorus and Aggron, both are extremely powerful Choiced spammers with pretty shitty defensive typing. Granted Aurorus has a bit more versatility and speed, but I still feel Aggron is up there with its wallbreaking potential and big struggle to switch in on offense(Most Fighting and offensive Ground types are 2HKO'd at worst.). Notable answers to Aggron like Poliwrath and Gastrodon aren't that hard to deal with either, with both being pretty passive and in Poli's case, being easy to overwhelm and force to Rest, while Gastrodon really doesn't like being statused, and can also be overwhelmed with how much it is expected to check(Fire, Rock, Steel, Poison, Electric, AND Water types, most of each type having an effective way to deal with it). Of course, Aggron is still with major flaws, specifically its speed and 4x weakness to Fighting and Ground, making it pretty easy to lure, and causing it to not be able to check a lot of high tier threats. However, I still think Aggron was ranked just a subrank too low, when you consider the immense pressure it can put on a team when it gets a free switch.
Plus we talked about this on PS! chat earlier today and everyone seemed to be in agreement that Aggron should move.
Liepard from B >>> B+: I think B is pretty low for a pokémon as good as Liepard. Dark is one of the best offensive types while Knock Off is probably in the top 5 of best moves in the game. That combined with Liepards solid 88/88/106 offensive stats make Liepard quite threatening. Also NU has only one mega pokémon so there's not much that wants to take a Knock Off. Plus it has Prankster T-Wave which will save your life when you're about to get swept by a Lilligant/Vivillon/Klinklang or it will cripple anything else to where you can just finish them off easily. It's a great way to sacrifice Liepard and really get the most out of it, much like using Healing Wish Mesprit. It also guarantees that Liepard will always do something useful in a match because of the priority.
Also, with Mesprit, Jynx, Xatu, Rotom and Musharna being pretty common it's in your best interest to carry a Dark-type on your team and because Liepard is so fast you don't even need to rely on Sucker Punch, unlike Shiftry (which is ranked A+ btw). Pretty much there's a lot of good reasons to slap a Liepard on your team, it's very flexible and versatile with a movepool consisting of U-turn, STAB Sucker Punch and Knock Off, Prankster T-Wave/Encore, Pursuit, Gunk Shot, Play Rough and Grass Knot etc.
Also, with Mesprit, Jynx, Xatu, Rotom and Musharna being pretty common it's in your best interest to carry a Dark-type on your team and because Liepard is so fast you don't even need to rely on Sucker Punch, unlike Shiftry (which is ranked A+ btw). Pretty much there's a lot of good reasons to slap a Liepard on your team, it's very flexible and versatile with a movepool consisting of U-turn, STAB Sucker Punch and Knock Off, Prankster T-Wave/Encore, Pursuit, Gunk Shot, Play Rough and Grass Knot etc.
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I know I posted this last week but I want some opinions on this. As I detailed in my last post, Murkrow has a set of niches that let it perform in NU:
- Access to Prankster allows it to be an extremely useful supportive team member; with access to moves like TWave, Taunt, Tailwind, and Defog it can perform many jobs.
- It can check BuskenPass rather well. With more niche moves like Psych Up and Haze Murkrow can make things annoying and potentially reverse sweep.
- Murkrow isn't too shabby on the offensive side; with 85/85/91 stats and an effective movepool to boot it can put in work.
So I've been using Throh quite a lot recently, and I think its a very solid pokemon currently. So I'm not gonna say that Sawk leaving affected Throh's viability because it didn't, but Throh is incredibly overlooked while not many mons can do what it does effectivly. So to start off, it has great bulk, with 120hp and 85/85 in defenses, it becomes incredibly bulky with investment. It acts as a great special wall with a desired ability to phaze with Circle Throw. This works incredibly well where it can reliably check lilligant, chicken pass, and others. It outshines Poliwhirl in this regard as with guts it benefits from being asleep while not being able to absorb water attacks, it can still act as a scald switch in and also knock off plus a little extra bulk is great. Also no Grass/Electric weakness helps it check a lot more like manectric, rotom, lilligant, ludicolo etc. Obviously it has flaws like being slow so it cant always get off a rest and psychic types are quite common, but for the most regards, Throh acts as a brilliant specially defensive wall that can be surprisingly splashable. I really suggest people try it.
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Okay so I've never made a nomination like this before so I'm gonna underplay it, and if you guys think it deserves to go higher, then tell me.
Unranked --> B-/B
For a start it completely shocks me that Sawsbuck is unranked in the first place. Firstly, has a really great base 95 speed tier. This allows it to outspeed a decent portion of the tier including Rotom which Sawsbuck happens to be a really great check to. Sawsbuck has a good ability in Sap Sipper as well, this allows it to check HP Rock Lilligant, but importantly, allows it to absorb Spore from Smeargle and then start firing off +1 attacks. Sawsbuck has a decent movepool and two very viable sets; Sub SD and SD 3 attacks. The Sub SD set can surprise your opponent and prevent you from being burned or paralyzed, then give you a platform to set up and use that decent speed tier to plough through. My favourite is the 3 attacks set with a Lum Berry, it allows you to be fairly confident switching Sawsbuck into Lanturns and Gastrodons knowing you have a Lum to save yourself from a burn once, this also allows you to set up an SD on things like Rotom that will try to burn/paralyze you. Importantly, this set brings Jump Kick, a +2 Horn Leech has a very small chance to 2hko Aggron, but: +2 252 Atk Sawsbuck Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aggron: 432-512 (153.7 - 182.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Finally, Sawsbuck definitely faces competition from Shiftry, but I think the speed tier it holds is enough to warrant a rank as high as I've given it, thoughts are welcome, give this thing a go.
Unranked --> B-/B
For a start it completely shocks me that Sawsbuck is unranked in the first place. Firstly, has a really great base 95 speed tier. This allows it to outspeed a decent portion of the tier including Rotom which Sawsbuck happens to be a really great check to. Sawsbuck has a good ability in Sap Sipper as well, this allows it to check HP Rock Lilligant, but importantly, allows it to absorb Spore from Smeargle and then start firing off +1 attacks. Sawsbuck has a decent movepool and two very viable sets; Sub SD and SD 3 attacks. The Sub SD set can surprise your opponent and prevent you from being burned or paralyzed, then give you a platform to set up and use that decent speed tier to plough through. My favourite is the 3 attacks set with a Lum Berry, it allows you to be fairly confident switching Sawsbuck into Lanturns and Gastrodons knowing you have a Lum to save yourself from a burn once, this also allows you to set up an SD on things like Rotom that will try to burn/paralyze you. Importantly, this set brings Jump Kick, a +2 Horn Leech has a very small chance to 2hko Aggron, but: +2 252 Atk Sawsbuck Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aggron: 432-512 (153.7 - 182.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Finally, Sawsbuck definitely faces competition from Shiftry, but I think the speed tier it holds is enough to warrant a rank as high as I've given it, thoughts are welcome, give this thing a go.
I definitely agree with this nomination and think B- is a good start. Sap Sipper is a pretty good ability in a meta where stuff like Rhydon, Omastar and Gastrodon are very commonly seen (aka. stuff that gets OHKOd by grass type moves), and Sawsbuck has the stats and the move pool to make it work. Speaking of stats, except for slightly lower HP, Sawsbuck outshines Shiftry in every relevant stat. It has more attack, more defense and special defense, more speed. What I like most about this mon is how easy it is to fit on a multitude of teams. As Orphic mentioned SubSD works, SD 3 Attacks works (and both fit on different archetypes imo), and if you want to be a threat to offensive teams, Agility works as well. What I have been doing is Sub Bulk Up Baton Pass Floatzel into Agility Sawsbuck, and it works surprisingly well on the low ladder (I only have experience up to like 1500 though).
It is fodder for a decent amount of A ranked mons, but it also has its niche against some of them. To me, Sawsbuck performs about as well as Cacturne at the moment (both are grass types outperformed by other grass types, but they have their distinct niches that make them viable), and should thusly be ranked B- too.
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Just a quick game to show what Sawsbuck is capable of given the right conditions.
Mind you guys, this is at a very low rating on a throwaway account and I got severely lucky multiple times that game, did not play it well or anything, I was getting ready to leave while playing this. (and yet here I am typing this post instead of going to the pub, lmao) So my point is not to make Sawsbuck seem like some kind of uber sweeper, but I think this game is a cute display of that particular mon clutching it out and showcases one of the reasons why it was nominated - its situational ability to clean late.
Double Edge at plus 2 is a roll (93,8%) on Weezing on the standard set with 108 speed and 148 def and Stealth Rocks IF YOU RUN LIFE ORB, but if he runs as little as 8 defense less than that to speed creep opposing weezing for example, it is guaranteed. That alone is a pretty impressive feat in my opinion. I still think the Lum Berry set is better because you can horn leach on his sludge Bomb which does 88% max, and then KO him with the double edge afterwards and if he tries to Will-O-Wisp expecting the switch or because he doesnt respect Sawsbuck, you are golden. Its also more reliable in general I think. In this particular game I knew my opponent ran a more offensive set because of prior games, so I could just OHKO without the Life orb.
It is fodder for a decent amount of A ranked mons, but it also has its niche against some of them. To me, Sawsbuck performs about as well as Cacturne at the moment (both are grass types outperformed by other grass types, but they have their distinct niches that make them viable), and should thusly be ranked B- too.
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Just a quick game to show what Sawsbuck is capable of given the right conditions.
Mind you guys, this is at a very low rating on a throwaway account and I got severely lucky multiple times that game, did not play it well or anything, I was getting ready to leave while playing this. (and yet here I am typing this post instead of going to the pub, lmao) So my point is not to make Sawsbuck seem like some kind of uber sweeper, but I think this game is a cute display of that particular mon clutching it out and showcases one of the reasons why it was nominated - its situational ability to clean late.
Double Edge at plus 2 is a roll (93,8%) on Weezing on the standard set with 108 speed and 148 def and Stealth Rocks IF YOU RUN LIFE ORB, but if he runs as little as 8 defense less than that to speed creep opposing weezing for example, it is guaranteed. That alone is a pretty impressive feat in my opinion. I still think the Lum Berry set is better because you can horn leach on his sludge Bomb which does 88% max, and then KO him with the double edge afterwards and if he tries to Will-O-Wisp expecting the switch or because he doesnt respect Sawsbuck, you are golden. Its also more reliable in general I think. In this particular game I knew my opponent ran a more offensive set because of prior games, so I could just OHKO without the Life orb.
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Remember when people unanimously agreed that Sawsbuck is inferior to Leafeon?
Like the drops have been beneficial for Sawsbuck so far, but you're still kind of overlooking Sawsbuck's fraility when it comes to setting up or maintaining the sweep. Like Sawsbuck's coverage is respectable and all, but as far as setup mons go, a 95 base Speed mon with zero priority, lackluster bulk, and honestly fairly mediocre defensive typing isn't too much to write home about. As far as competition with Shiftry goes, I do not in fact think the difference in Speed is enough to warrant the rank you've given it, because almost all the Pokemon that dwell between the 80 and 95 base Speed tier are either at risk of taking huge damage from Shiftry's Sucker Punch or are basically irrelevant. Now if Sawk were still here, Sawsbuck's Speed tier advantage over Shiftry would be more notable, but as it stands...
I can't deny that things have improved for Sawsbuck, but I don't believe it is enough to jump its way past all of C Rank; C+ Rank would probably be the highest rank I'd assign it in the meantime. Leafeon could follow suit with a bump to C+ Rank as well, if Sawsbuck does ascend to C+, since it still has the huge physical bulk + Baton Pass thing going for it.
Like the drops have been beneficial for Sawsbuck so far, but you're still kind of overlooking Sawsbuck's fraility when it comes to setting up or maintaining the sweep. Like Sawsbuck's coverage is respectable and all, but as far as setup mons go, a 95 base Speed mon with zero priority, lackluster bulk, and honestly fairly mediocre defensive typing isn't too much to write home about. As far as competition with Shiftry goes, I do not in fact think the difference in Speed is enough to warrant the rank you've given it, because almost all the Pokemon that dwell between the 80 and 95 base Speed tier are either at risk of taking huge damage from Shiftry's Sucker Punch or are basically irrelevant. Now if Sawk were still here, Sawsbuck's Speed tier advantage over Shiftry would be more notable, but as it stands...
I can't deny that things have improved for Sawsbuck, but I don't believe it is enough to jump its way past all of C Rank; C+ Rank would probably be the highest rank I'd assign it in the meantime. Leafeon could follow suit with a bump to C+ Rank as well, if Sawsbuck does ascend to C+, since it still has the huge physical bulk + Baton Pass thing going for it.
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It speed ties with Jynx (who just puts Shiftry to sleep) and Primeape (which doesn't care about sucker punch) and OHKOs both, and it has a 75% chance to OHKO offensive Xatu. It cleanly 2HKOs defensive Xatu, which can beat non-SD Shiftry. The faster variant just bops him with Signal Beam anyways. Being faster than Rotom in order to not get burned is huge, too. It does up to 85% to Kangaskhan WITHOUT a boost, which is a single stealth rock proc and some chip damage for a clean OHKO. Being able to reliably bring Vivillon down to sash is amazing, too, and something Shiftry cannot do. Lilligant, which it wants to switch into anyways, is a strange situation because it can win if it sets up QD on the switch and runs HP Ice, but if it does run the more common HP Rock or Ground, it can't touch Sawsbuck. Less so if it dares to click Sleep Powder as long as the buck is alive. Not having to fear Colbur Mesprit's Signal Beam is pretty nifty, too. I don't know if you count those mons as irrelevant, but I encounter them on the ladder on a daily basis. Also not trying to be a smartass here, but this seems pretty important to me.
While the defensive typing sucks, so does Shiftry's. Everyone and their mum carries a way to beat Malamar, and Shiftry happens to get bopped by Signal Beams. They share the fighting weakness, Shiftry is weaker to bug than Sawsbuck is, and also happens to be weak to fairy. Other than that, same weaknesses. So I don't know if that should count as an argument, seeing how Grass/Normal is actually superior to Grass/Dark. As I said, Sawsbucks bulk is actually very comparable to Shiftry - it has 10 HP less and a bit of def and spdef to make up for that.
So the biggest thing differentiating them is Sucker Punch. And that's where the speed comes in again. Shiftry wants to sucker punch Rotom and Jynx, but can't because of Will-O and Lovely Kiss. Sawsbuck just bops them if he wins the speed tie. Same with Evire, though I can see how that is less relevant. I think it's also huge Sawsbuck has the ability to regain HP with Horn Leech, and my post further up shows a scenario against Weezing where that's important.
All things said and done, I don't mind if it lands in C+. If it does, I want to nominate Cacturne for a drop, too, because currently, Sawsbuck simply outperforms that mon in my teams.
The problem here is that Sawsbuck struggles to secure matchups with its superior Speed.
- Relying on speedties to best things like Jynx and Primeape are shaky enough, but this is worsened by those two happening to be effective wielders of Choice Scarf, whereas Sawsbuck is not (and of course, Shiftry has the advantage against Scarf Jynx). What's more, if you say that Shiftry has to worry about Jynx's Lovely Kiss, Jynx also has to be conscious of Early Bird allowing an immediate Sucker Punch, so Jynx can't always breath a sigh of relief just because it won the first 50/50.
- Offensive Xatus are not likely to be carrying Colbur Berry (they don't have the bulk to effectively make use of it anymore), so they are still at risk of Sucker Punch. Defensive Xatus aren't reliable checks either, because if they've lost their Colbur Berry, Sucker Punch stands high chances of OHKOing. If you wish to bring Thunder Wave Xatu into this argument, it would only hurt Sawsbuck's situation more.
- The Kangaskhan matchup is more in Sawsbuck's favor than Shiftry, but Sawsbuck is still not able to OHKO Kangaskhan, whereas Kangaskhan's Silk Scarf Double-Edge can KO Sawsbuck after LO recoil, so the Kanga user can just trade if they really want to. If Kanga is in range of a Jump Kick KO, Kanga can still do lasting damage with Fake Out + Sucker Punch before biting it. I am assuming you're talking about Jump Kick instead of Double-Edge here (judging from the 'upwards of 85%' you said Sawsbuck'd do), because Double-Edge makes it far more unlikely for Sawsbuck to make it out alive from this matchup. I'm just going off my gut here, but from the sets Orphic described (SubSD, SD 3 attacks), I am presuming SubSD to be running Return and SD + 3 attacks to be running Double-Edge while also having Jump Kick, so I'm not sure if Double-Edge'd factor into this Kangaskhan matchup. Orphic mentioned an SD Lum set too, so you may not even guarantee that LO is present in the calcs.
- I mean yeah Sawsbuck can prevent Sash Vivillon from getting more than one Quiver, at the cost of its own life, assuming the Vivillon user is keen on staying in. Meanwhile, I can argue that Shiftry can stop a (broken-)Sash Vivillon that has set up, so this argument can still go both ways.
- While no longer Lilligant's most popular Hidden Power, you cannot always discount HP Ice, as HP Ice can still target mons that Sleep Powder does not affect (mostly Grass-types and Xatu) and doesn't drop the Speed IV. Also HP Fire Lilligant is a possibility as well. While Sawsbuck may deter Lilligant from immediately spamming its STAB, it is absolutely helpless against +1 Lilli with a super effective Hidden Power. Shiftry can inflict major damage with Sucker Punch on any Lilligant variant (provided your predictions aren't off by a mile), and still not fare badly against the non-SE Hidden Power Lilligants as well.
- Yeah Sawsbuck is not in nearly as much risk against Colbur Signal Beam Mesprit, but it still has to watch out for things like Ice Beam, LO Signal Beam, Thunder Wave, and whatnot, so it's not so much a point for Sawsbuck than it is for Mesprit.
Why Shiftry would want to Sucker Punch a Rotom? It's not at risk of being immediately KOed by anything Rotom commonly carries. You'd pretty much want to use Knock Off on any Rotom unless you know it has the rare Signal Beam, which is found most often on Choice Rotom anyway, so it's not like they can play around the Sucker Punch.
One more thing I'd like to address: you mentioned non-SD Shiftry. This implies that Shiftry has an effective immediate attacking set, unlike the case with Sawsbuck. I mean, look how weak this thing can be if unboosted in comparison to Leafeon, another Grass-type attacker reliant on boosting:
Of course, this power issue is less glaring with Life Orb, but your suggestion of Life Orb Double-Edge means that using the move would take its toll on Sawsbuck very quickly. Despite Horn Leech's healing offsetting LO recoil, the fact that Orphic prefers Lum Berry is truly indicative of the importance of setting up over immediate attacking potential for Sawsbuck. I mean having a decent set-up sweeping moveset is fine, but having an effective immediate attacking moveset alongside it would be immensely helpful to decide a mon's viability (examples include Charizard, Samurott, Scyther, and of course, Combusken), and I believe Sawsbuck lacks the latter quality enough to be ranked too highly.
This ties in with your Cacturne nomination, because coincidentally enough, it possesses both powerful immediate attacking capability and dangerous setup sweeping potential. Like Sawsbuck, Cacturne manages to partially benefit from the drops as well: it can take advantage of Gastrodon to deter Scald, can beat up the slower Aggron, and can take on Smeargle (although its lesser Speed does put it at less of an advantage in comparison). While still largely overshadowed by Shiftry, I think Cacturne remains decent enough to remain in B-.
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I can see where you are coming from and while I disagree with some of what you say (what makes Primape a more effective scarfer, for example? U-Turn? A meager 5 base power difference? Scarf Sawsbuck gets Wild Charge and Megahorn, pretty decent coverage in my opinion, so I don't think it's that. I can see how U-Turn is a big plus for a scarf set, but if that is the one thing making him a reliable scarfer while Sawsbuck isn't, you are reaching in my opinion. For what it's worth, I think they both suck as scarfers), a lot of it makes sense. My rotom argument for example was garbage, cause I didn't check if burned knock off still OHKOs, which it does most of the time, assuming you run life orb.
I still think you are ignoring a lot of what makes Sawsbuck good, though. The ability to run Sub, SD and Agility means it can fulfill different functions against different teams, the grass immunity is still a pretty big deal while Chlorophyll ends up being useless most of the time, and I've personally never seen early bird because it's viability is limited to like Jynx and Smeargle, and even then you have to know the set to make sure it doesn't end up being a waste of an ability. The speed is also still a big deal in my experience, examples have been listed, as Vivillon is forced out, as we said, unless it wants to trade lives, which I would happily do against a Viv. Lilligant is reliant on running a SE HP and Kanga has a very shaky matchup, if it has to come in on Sawsbuck at less than full HP, as even unboosted Lum Jump Kick does around 65%, while sucker and Fake-Out do ~35%.
Don't get me wrong, Sawsbuck IS situational and it DOES rely on setting up. It just so happens that it does get a bunch of opportunities to do so at the moment, and I still believe it has its various niches over, say, Leafeon, who happens to get OHKOd by Weezings Sludge Bomb after rocks, while Sawsbuck lives 82,5% of the time and also does more to it. If it has already set up, even better. Other niches have been explained earlier, and considering Pokemon is not a game where you can always bring in full HP mons against other full HP mons, sometimes doing more damage than alternative mons without being able to deliver fatal blows is important, at least to my play style. Sometimes Rotom comes in after you have been weakened so you HAVE to click sucker punch on Shiftry - and that's where the extra speed comes in nice, because you don't have to bother with 50/50s. Yeah, if we are only looking at full HP vs full HP scenarios, Shiftry does better against some of the stuff I listed - most of the stuff, actually. If we are looking at the actual possibilites of a battle, though - I think Sawsbuck has a bunch of nice niches to fulfill here, as there is a number of situations that ask for immediate, reliable speed.
Also, it is obviously worse than Shiftry - never wanted to argue about that. I just think the fact that an unraked mon has so many situations where it performs at least equally well, if not better (we've been over this) in certain situations compared to an A+ mon is worthy of at least B-
Cacturne cannot reliably beat up Aggron, by the way. Dark pulse only has 56% chance of a OHKO without rocks, so you would need those to beat Aggron, and even without rocks, he has a 13% chance of survival - but that's more smartassery than an actual argument. I also haven't seen SD Cacturne being used effectively in forever, but that might just be me. Does that set do anything Shiftry can't, bar DBond?
Either way, I think you and I have made our points pretty clear, so it would be cool if other users with experience using the Buck could chime in here.
I still think you are ignoring a lot of what makes Sawsbuck good, though. The ability to run Sub, SD and Agility means it can fulfill different functions against different teams, the grass immunity is still a pretty big deal while Chlorophyll ends up being useless most of the time, and I've personally never seen early bird because it's viability is limited to like Jynx and Smeargle, and even then you have to know the set to make sure it doesn't end up being a waste of an ability. The speed is also still a big deal in my experience, examples have been listed, as Vivillon is forced out, as we said, unless it wants to trade lives, which I would happily do against a Viv. Lilligant is reliant on running a SE HP and Kanga has a very shaky matchup, if it has to come in on Sawsbuck at less than full HP, as even unboosted Lum Jump Kick does around 65%, while sucker and Fake-Out do ~35%.
Don't get me wrong, Sawsbuck IS situational and it DOES rely on setting up. It just so happens that it does get a bunch of opportunities to do so at the moment, and I still believe it has its various niches over, say, Leafeon, who happens to get OHKOd by Weezings Sludge Bomb after rocks, while Sawsbuck lives 82,5% of the time and also does more to it. If it has already set up, even better. Other niches have been explained earlier, and considering Pokemon is not a game where you can always bring in full HP mons against other full HP mons, sometimes doing more damage than alternative mons without being able to deliver fatal blows is important, at least to my play style. Sometimes Rotom comes in after you have been weakened so you HAVE to click sucker punch on Shiftry - and that's where the extra speed comes in nice, because you don't have to bother with 50/50s. Yeah, if we are only looking at full HP vs full HP scenarios, Shiftry does better against some of the stuff I listed - most of the stuff, actually. If we are looking at the actual possibilites of a battle, though - I think Sawsbuck has a bunch of nice niches to fulfill here, as there is a number of situations that ask for immediate, reliable speed.
Also, it is obviously worse than Shiftry - never wanted to argue about that. I just think the fact that an unraked mon has so many situations where it performs at least equally well, if not better (we've been over this) in certain situations compared to an A+ mon is worthy of at least B-
Cacturne cannot reliably beat up Aggron, by the way. Dark pulse only has 56% chance of a OHKO without rocks, so you would need those to beat Aggron, and even without rocks, he has a 13% chance of survival - but that's more smartassery than an actual argument. I also haven't seen SD Cacturne being used effectively in forever, but that might just be me. Does that set do anything Shiftry can't, bar DBond?
Either way, I think you and I have made our points pretty clear, so it would be cool if other users with experience using the Buck could chime in here.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
Mesprit
A ---> A+
This may seem like a strange nomination since nothing has changed for it but I think it should be moved up to A+ strictly on its ability to adapt to the metagame and increasing versatility. So when you look at usage statistics it sits around 25ing to come across a Mesprit. The reason for this is because it has soo many advantages and perks that allow it to shape itself a spot on your team. Scarf, Specs, LO, Healing Wish, Defensive, Offensive, etc. I like to think of Mesprit like Landorus and Flygon of there respective tiers. They fit onto so many teams due to how much they can do in one match. They pull ther're weight like Mesprit does and because of this I whole-heartedly believe it should be A+
A ---> A+
This may seem like a strange nomination since nothing has changed for it but I think it should be moved up to A+ strictly on its ability to adapt to the metagame and increasing versatility. So when you look at usage statistics it sits around 25ing to come across a Mesprit. The reason for this is because it has soo many advantages and perks that allow it to shape itself a spot on your team. Scarf, Specs, LO, Healing Wish, Defensive, Offensive, etc. I like to think of Mesprit like Landorus and Flygon of there respective tiers. They fit onto so many teams due to how much they can do in one match. They pull ther're weight like Mesprit does and because of this I whole-heartedly believe it should be A+
Musharna is obviously still a very good Pokemon, but I think it has fallen out of place a bit recently. It's a solid pivot but has flaws in being extremely slow, Taunt-bait, and being weak without some Calm Minds under its belt. On paper it checks a lot of Mons, but it's easily pressured by Hazards (especially TSpikes), making it relatively easy to overwhelm Musharna with a strong attacker like Tauros + multiple layers of hazards. Aggron dropping to NU doesn't impact Musharna any more than it does any other Psychic-type so I don't think that's a very valid argument, but 99% of Musharna sets are a free switch-in for Aggron. It also suffers from a 4MSS; if you don't run Baton Pass you get walled by Steelix, if you don't run Signal Beam you get walled by Malamar, if you don't run Barrier you get overwhelmed by kangaspikes / DD Rhydon / other physical boosters. Musharna is definitely still a very solid Pokemon, but I've had a hard time trying to fit it on Balance-teams as a general pivot.
Other noms:
Mesprit to A+
Mega Audino to A
Torterra to B
Sawsbuck to C
Bronzor to D
Voting was split on Rampardos, so some more discussion on that would be appreciated.
Musharna nomination will be voted on in the next slate, but feel free to add any input on that until then.
Mega Audino to A
Torterra to B
Sawsbuck to C
Bronzor to D
Voting was split on Rampardos, so some more discussion on that would be appreciated.
Musharna nomination will be voted on in the next slate, but feel free to add any input on that until then.
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Hey erisia, I definitely support your post, although I'm not too sure about Floatzel dropping. Although it is mostly walled by either Gastrodon or Mantine, it's still a very strong Pokemon, especially vs more offensive teams. its ability to run either Taunt or Baton Pass gives it great utility and momentum, as Taunt allows Floatzel to shut down Smeargle/Omastar leads, and Baton Pass makes it be able to grab momentum vs said counters to Floatzel; Gastrodon, Lanturn, Mantine, and allows in offensive threats such as Lilligant or Tauros in for free to deal with them.A > A-: Gastrodon has certainly caused Floatzel a bit of a dilemma; run HP Electric and get walled by it or run HP Grass and get walled by Mantine. I think HP Grass is probably the better pick in this meta but it still makes Floatzel a little more complicated to use, and aside from its Speed, Tauros and Archeops definitely outshine it as a cleaner, and Swellow also gives it a lot of competition. Having to run Hydro Pump and basically dying to any hit as soon as it misses is also annoying; at least Tauros can take a physical hit if it misses.
I can definitely see where you are coming from with your nom and I respect it fully but I'm not sure if I agree with it as of now.
PrinceLucian
Banned deucer.
