Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[Mob Barley]

I know that the updated v.r thread is rather new, however nomming two mons to rise
Mega Metagross A- -> A.

I can understand why it has fell from the grace of the upper echelons but despite the bulky ground meta game hampering its effectiveness, it is simply underrated at this point. I'm well aware of the 4mss it suffers, and its reliance as mentioned to run coverage like ice punch to take down the omnipresent lando's/chomps running amok. No you'll never have that perfect set but still, lets be real Metagross still remains at large an effective powerhouse in ORAS. Not to make this too hypothetical, but if you really want despite the mentioned 4mss, it'll 2hko still just about everything you want in the tier bar Mega Scizor and Slowbro (I find bro shaky with gk especially after sr and a bit of prior dmg but regenerator eases the stress overall). Other grounds like Hippo are 2hkod by grass knot (with a negative nature btw) as well as quagsire who obviously just faints. Skarmory loses to repetitive hammer arms (although rocky helmet deters this). The list ends there and point being, if you want this thing to work it will, and it'll almost always pull its weight. Lastly, that bulk allows it to win so many 1v1s in the tier, 80/150/110 is insane and something I find to to be under appreciated. Many cases a player will need to sack something prior to get the necessary takedown. This meta has adapted a lot since its conception but its almost as if people forgot how nasty it is in practice. lol in my post I couldn't help but point out some of the things that undermine its potential but then again thats why I believe mid A is appropriate. It isn't perfect, but it rarely disappoints when used properly. Firmly believe the right team support will mitigate whatever flaws mentioned.

Mega Sableye A -> A+

Don't even get me started on this thing. Sableye serves as the cornerstone for almost ALL stall and to be frank, its an opportunity cost not to use Sableye as the preferred mega in almost all cases. No need to run you the overwhelmingness of magic bounce's merits because we all know what it does. Hoopa's removal if anything, has made stall to be far more effective as obviously predicted. It's improved since the ban and thats incontrovertible in my opinion. Yes..Clefable and Heatran have incredible usage and essentially ensure that they'll be able to breeze past Sableye in terms of setting SR but any solid stall will have hazard removal on top of it. Well put together stall doesn't just collapse over these two mons and I put emphasis on "stall" because it's really where Sableye peaks. Stall is alive and better then ever and having the claim to carry an entire playstyle on its back should grant Sableye access to A+ territory.

 

[Leo3103]

I have to second/third the Sableye once again haha, piggyback on what Mob Barley said, he is SUCH a nuisance that if you don't have an outright game plan for him you just lose, you have to have him in mind when teambuilding or you're busted. I've had success with either physical fire types or anything that can run a choice specs set to avoid the shit show that getting wisped.

 

[HailFall]

Why do ppl in this thread have such an msab boner oml. The problem with mega sableye moving up is that it's literally getting worse. The metagame has adapted to it and now offensive sr users, rocks clef, and rocks tran are all quite common. These sets make msab near useless in any matchup against them. This coupled with just how easy it is to wear it down and pressure msab makes it really not deserving of being ranked alongside mons like mzor and such. I also think stall also isn't nearly as difficult to break as people make it out to be, but thats just my opinion on the matter. Typically with smart switches, lures, and stallbreakers you can beat ladder stall reasonably easily.

 

[Shruggy]

I feel like, a lot of people either dont appreciate or underestimate a lot of what makes dragalge so strong. They just see his low speed + decent SPA + ability and just slap a specs on and 248 hp and expect him to do work every match.

While that is certainly something that can do work here is the set i've used in the past to great effect:

Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Sludge Bomb / Sludge Wave
- Toxic Spikes
- Dragon Tail / Draco Meteor
- Rest

I go into more detail about this set here. Which includes details about spread and what he can/cant do such as tank various mons such as keldeo/manaphy/serperior with ease as well as game replays. The big seller here is the toxic spikes which i dont know why people think are bad? They are amazing and i never regret taking a turn in a battle to put them down. The only real teams he has problems with are fast/heavy offence in which case i usually sack early game to get 1/2 layers of spikes down or try and revenge kill which with his bulk he can usually manage except vs powerful ground attackers.

Should not drop imo, very strong and underrated poke who can pull his weight quite hard with a small amount of team support.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I feel like, a lot of people either dont appreciate or underestimate a lot of what makes dragalge so strong. They just see his low speed + decent SPA + ability and just slap a specs on and 248 hp and expect him to do work every match.

While that is certainly something that can do work here is the set i've used in the past to great effect:

Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Sludge Bomb / Sludge Wave
- Toxic Spikes
- Dragon Tail / Draco Meteor
- Rest

I go into more detail about this set here. Which includes details about spread and what he can/cant do such as tank various mons such as keldeo/manaphy/serperior with ease as well as game replays. The big seller here is the toxic spikes which i dont know why people think are bad? They are amazing and i never regret taking a turn in a battle to put them down. The only real teams he has problems with are fast/heavy offence in which case i usually sack early game to get 1/2 layers of spikes down or try and revenge kill which with his bulk he can usually manage except vs powerful ground attackers.

Should not drop imo, very strong and underrated poke who can pull his weight quite hard with a small amount of team support.

That set is awful in my opinion, versus offence you're coming face to face with Swords dance Garchomp, Latios, Landorus-Therian, Mega Medicham, Tornadus-T all of which have excellent match up versus a slow, weak pokemon whose main stab either makes it set up bait or has two or three resistances on every team. What exactly does this set do? Balance doesn't care, they have Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Hippowdown and plethora of offensive checks to deal with Dragalge. Offence easily muscles througg with afformentioned sets and stall has Mega Sableye, which takes max 50% from Draco Meteor, nvm Amoongus, Skarmory and chansey.

Dragalge is so slow that you're forced to take a hit to attack, and you're not bulky enough to get two or three of those attacks off.

 

[Ramses]

Can Mega Gyarados please drop to B+. It's struggling way too much in the metagame. I get that in theory it's incredibly threatening to face of you ever let it nab a boost, but it just falls so short in practice every single time without a large amount of team support. Not to mention that the steady rise of Grass-types, prevalence of Keldeo, and numerous other factors that make it such a subpar choice in the metagame with all the negative factors impacting it. It just doesn't measure up to that of an A- mon anymore and a drop reflects that nicely.

I'm also wondering why Hoopa and Whimsicott are still ranked. Hoopa is honestly just god awful right now and has little to no perks of using it at all right now. The main draw of using it before was the fact that it could be trapped by Gothitelle, but it's banned now and that ship has long sailed. In the current metagame it's nothing but Pursuit bait and death fodder for teams that try to utilize it, and a drop to D or being unranked altogether seems logical. Whimsicott is really not any better. It's utility that it does offer really isn't worth the risk of missing out on the numerous perks other Grass-types like Tangrowth offer in its stead and its not really a good check to the things it should in theory check. Keldeo obliterates it regardlessly and it can't even check Rain. It's just not good and this should be unranked.

The thing with Mega Metagross is that it misses so much oml, and it's very prepared for in the metagame. These days it isn't breaking through much these days due to how the metagame has adapted to take on certain sets. And against said teams it relies so much on predicition to even get anywhere. Ferrothorn can pivot into all it's coverage moves bar Hammer Arm, Slowking and Skarmory completely screws over non Thunder Punch sets, and Mega Scizor just curb stomps it. Then it doesn't want to switch-in on anything balance has (TWave, Scald, etc) so I think I spak for everyone that it's best matchup is against offense, yet even then it's super prepared for. It's honestly fine in A-.

Also, can we stop with this Mega Sableye lust? Like really, if you can't tell that it's gotten worse since the suspect then you truly haven't used it properly. You say that it carries the playstyle, on the contrary Mega Sableye needs the entire team to even support it to push it up to these "godlike" level as you've explained. It's honestly not on the level as Mega Diancie and Mega Scizor in no way, shape, or form and is actually more fit for a drop some time further in the metagame than a rise.

 

[Leo3103]

Disagree on MGyarados drop, I think A- is totally fine, move either way doesn't seem warranted. I don't find the argument that if it doesn't have adequate team support it fails because damn near close to every Pokemon needs adequate team support or they're gonna get screwed over, that's just team building, should be synergistic. Plus, really, you've gotta worry about a 4x pre evolution weakness to Electric, so just run a ground dude (Lando-T, Hippo) heck even a grass guy does the job, then when you mega, a steel/fire (ex Heartan) covers your new Dark weakness as well as the grass, really not that hard to support. Forgot about SR, but every team should have SR/Defog support, like I said, that's just team building.

I think it's very normal and easy to get at least 1 DD off, and if your opponent allows you to get 2 off, a sweep from there is pretty much imminent. Intimidate helps this immensely if you're running the Bulky DD spread, and with pre-Evo resistances of fighting, ground, fire, steel, water, and bug (all very relevant) you have plenty of opportunities to set up a DD before you go ham with the mega.

Intimidate plus the pre evo bulk 95/80/100 going to mega as 95/110/130 is great and picks up 2 more relevant resistances in Ghost and Dark, which can definitely allow you to go +2 and sweep from there.

Tl:dr - relevant resistances allow for DD, intimidate is freat and facilitates this, great bulk pre and post mega evolution and giving him adequate team support isn't that demanding

 

[HailFall]

Disagree on MGyarados drop, I think A- is totally fine, move either way doesn't seem warranted. I don't find the argument that if it doesn't have adequate team support it fails because damn near close to every Pokemon needs adequate team support or they're gonna get screwed over, that's just team building, should be synergistic. Plus, really, you've gotta worry about a 4x pre evolution weakness to Electric, so just run a ground dude (Lando-T, Hippo) heck even a grass guy does the job, then when you mega, a steel/fire (ex Heartan) covers your new Dark weakness as well as the grass, really not that hard to support. Forgot about SR, but every team should have SR/Defog support, like I said, that's just team building.

the problem with mega gyarados is that so many things really common right now just screw it over completely like keldeo, ferrothorn, tangrowth, and a whole plethora of other things depending on the coverage it runs. A sr weakness pre mega isnt something you can just dismiss either it's a big deal.

Also small note that if Lando-t is your check to electrics like things or mmane there's a problem rofl.

I think it's very normal and easy to get at least 1 DD off, and if your opponent allows you to get 2 off, a sweep from there is pretty much imminent. Intimidate helps this immensely if you're running the Bulky DD spread, and with pre-Evo resistances of fighting, ground, fire, steel, water, and bug (all very relevant) you have plenty of opportunities to set up a DD before you go ham with the mega.

Since when has bulky DD m gyarados ever been a thing .-. Also the issues with it getting hard stopped by a lot of common and relevant mons still apply if you get a DD up.

 

[Leo3103]

What's wrong with Lando checking electrics? A different ground guy? I'm confused haha I get HP:Ice and Ice Fang are things but then if that's the argument for not playing Lando then just don't run him at all?

Sooo that's why you run team support to take care of those mons, that's the point of team building, you can't run out MScizor if a fire dude is still running around or even a guy with fire coverage cuz any hit from a 4x weakness is 99.9% of the time an OHKO. I don't find that argument relevant like I said before, your team should be built to handle common checks, that's the point

 

[AM]

Hailfall I think your justification as a counter argument to leos post was quite terrible and if I wasnt at work Id elaborate further. Leo throwing out base stats wasnt really good either but at least provide some substance other than using the same keld ferro logic that isnt even a relatively new occurence, viable mons since the XY days. I cant take that as an argument against mgyarados seriously until maybe you make points worth responding to. Not in a disrespectful manner but the generalizations do not really enhance your point much.

Edit: magics post to an extent to but its just c/p logic with a loose perception on the last point of fitting in B+

 

[Mob Barley]

Can Mega Gyarados please drop to B+. It's struggling way too much in the metagame. I get that in theory it's incredibly threatening to face of you ever let it nab a boost, but it just falls so short in practice every single time without a large amount of team support. Not to mention that the steady rise of Grass-types, prevalence of Keldeo, and numerous other factors that make it such a subpar choice in the metagame with all the negative factors impacting it. It just doesn't measure up to that of an A- mon anymore and a drop reflects that nicely.

I'm also wondering why Hoopa and Whimsicott are still ranked. Hoopa is honestly just god awful right now and has little to no perks of using it at all right now. The main draw of using it before was the fact that it could be trapped by Gothitelle, but it's banned now and that ship has long sailed. In the current metagame it's nothing but Pursuit bait and death fodder for teams that try to utilize it, and a drop to D or being unranked altogether seems logical. Whimsicott is really not any better. It's utility that it does offer really isn't worth the risk of missing out on the numerous perks other Grass-types like Tangrowth offer in its stead and its not really a good check to the things it should in theory check. Keldeo obliterates it regardlessly and it can't even check Rain. It's just not good and this should be unranked.

The thing with Mega Metagross is that it misses so much oml, and it's very prepared for in the metagame. These days it isn't breaking through much these days due to how the metagame has adapted to take on certain sets. And against said teams it relies so much on predicition to even get anywhere. Ferrothorn can pivot into all it's coverage moves bar Hammer Arm, Slowking and Skarmory completely screws over non Thunder Punch sets, and Mega Scizor just curb stomps it. Then it doesn't want to switch-in on anything balance has (TWave, Scald, etc) so I think I spak for everyone that it's best matchup is against offense, yet even then it's super prepared for. It's honestly fine in A-.

Also, can we stop with this Mega Sableye lust? Like really, if you can't tell that it's gotten worse since the suspect then you truly haven't used it properly. You say that it carries the playstyle, on the contrary Mega Sableye needs the entire team to even support it to push it up to these "godlike" level as you've explained. It's honestly not on the level as Mega Diancie and Mega Scizor in no way, shape, or form and is actually more fit for a drop some time further in the metagame than a rise.

Not sure where your quoting "godlike" uh who used that word outside you lol? Anyways, if your going to deny the dominance Sableye has on the meta game now, I'd conclude you are in fact the one who's ill informed. I made note in my post of the pressure it faces from perpetual SR's that win 1v1's (fable and tran). This is duly noted but to suggest it has "gotten worse since the suspect" outside of the SR's who pressure Sableye, I really have no idea what your referring to. The only new addition to the metagame has been volcanion and that isn't even that good of a stall breaker (no one runs mixed superpower sets, aka the only sets capable of breaking stall). Nothing else has changed or been added notably that makes Sableye less effective then before. How about some specifics because all you did was generalize in your post. I'm even making references to my first post to back up ur argument because this was such a weak response as to why Sableye deserves to be A.

 

[Leo3103]

AM all I'm getting at with base stats is that the bulk pre and post mega are relevant, typing gives relevant resistances, intimidate is relevant for set up purposes, mold breaker is relevant and owns Rotom even at +1 with EQ, and weaknesses of MGyarados can be planned for. I think the lost you could argue a drop of this dude for is that his usage has gone down(?) not even sure that's the case either but that's the only thing I could think. I use him as a primary in singles and I have quite a lot of success with him so I have a relatively good understanding of his pros/cons

 

[Ramses]

Not sure where your quoting "godlike" uh who used that word outside you lol? Anyways, if your going to deny the dominance Sableye has on the meta game now, I'd conclude you are in fact the one who's ill informed. I made note in my post of the pressure it faces from perpetual SR's that win 1v1's (fable and tran). This is duly noted but to suggest it has "gotten worse since the suspect" outside of the SR's who pressure Sableye, I really have no idea what your referring to. The only new addition to the metagame has been volcanion and that isn't even that good of a stall breaker (no one runs mixed superpower sets, aka the only sets capable of breaking stall). Nothing else has changed or been added notably that makes Sableye less effective then before. How about some specifics because all you did was generalize in your post. I'm even making references to my first post to back up ur argument because this was such a weak response as to why Sableye deserves to be A.

As i said before Mega Sableye literally needs an entire team in its back to function as well as it'd like and let's be real here; the only playstyle it's that viable on these days is stall. Anything else is nothing but a detriment to the success of the team since it gets pressured so bad without the usual staples on stall.

Not to mention stall is pretty subpar in today's metagame, maybe if we ranked things based on the ladder which you obviously are since stall will forever lurks there, it's be worthy of A+, but in actuality it's not. It's only good because of the stall teams you find it on and its nothing but bait for a ton of common mons like Clef, Diancie, which can be handles by its teammates on stall.

It also virtually loses to every hazard setter bar Skarmory and Ferrothorn so it doesn't even do its job well. Mega Sab thrives in a passive metagame and sadly that ship has sailed so i highly doubt the metagame will ever favor Mega Sab so much its worthy of A+. The only reason it was that high anyway was because of Gothitelle removing everything that screws it over, which frankly is almost everything.

 

[Iloveleague]

As i said before Mega Sableye literally needs an entire team in its back to function as well as it'd like and let's be real here; the only playstyle it's that viable on these days is stall. Anything else is nothing but a detriment to the success of the team since it gets pressured so bad without the usual staples on stall.

Not to mention stall is pretty subpar in today's metagame, maybe if we ranked things based on the ladder which you obviously are since stall will forever lurks there, it's be worthy of A+, but in actuality it's not. It's only good because of the stall teams you find it on and its nothing but bait for a ton of common mons like Clef, Diancie, which can be handles by its teammates on stall.

It also virtually loses to every hazard setter bar Skarmory and Ferrothorn so it doesn't even do its job well. Mega Sab thrives in a passive metagame and sadly that ship has sailed so i highly doubt the metagame will ever favor Mega Sab so much its worthy of A+. The only reason it was that high anyway was because of Gothitelle removing everything that screws it over, which frankly is almost everything.

I will update this later but sableye does not need an entire team to function effectively. I think you have mistaken sableye with stall as a playstyle. Sableye has a place on balance and BO if used effectively.

 

[Wuhu]

As i said before Mega Sableye literally needs an entire team in its back to function as well as it'd like and let's be real here; the only playstyle it's that viable on these days is stall. Anything else is nothing but a detriment to the success of the team since it gets pressured so bad without the usual staples on stall.

Not to mention stall is pretty subpar in today's metagame, maybe if we ranked things based on the ladder which you obviously are since stall will forever lurks there, it's be worthy of A+, but in actuality it's not. It's only good because of the stall teams you find it on and its nothing but bait for a ton of common mons like Clef, Diancie, which can be handles by its teammates on stall.

It also virtually loses to every hazard setter bar Skarmory and Ferrothorn so it doesn't even do its job well. Mega Sab thrives in a passive metagame and sadly that ship has sailed so i highly doubt the metagame will ever favor Mega Sab so much its worthy of A+. The only reason it was that high anyway was because of Gothitelle removing everything that screws it over, which frankly is almost everything.

I think we've established before in the Metagame Discussion or in this thread that Sableye is not viable just on stall. Looking at the many viable and effective non-stall Sableye teams whether it's the dice / TDK balance team, the p2 balance team, or even blunder's Sableye-Talon team which is actually more near BO (admittedly it just clicks x versus Diancie, still it's a much older team that has a pretty good matchup versus nearly everything else) it's pretty clear that Mega Sableye is not a stall-exclusive mon. Yeah that one stall template of Sableye-Chansey-Skarmory-Quagsire-Amoonguss-filler is a common stall build but "let's be real here" there's a lot more megas than just Sableye that fit on stall or semistall like Slowbro, Scizor, Altaria (yes Altaria, can people stop hating on this thing already), Venusaur, etc. it's just that Sableye is one of the best megas for stall to have for a team. It literally requires the exact same support as any other balance, stall, or BO teams: since when do effective teams lack a Fairy resist and a way to deal with Skarmory? What balance teams don't have some counter measure against setup sweepers or common wallbreakers (hell Mega Sableye can even wall LO Kyurem if it's Timid, and it takes on stuff like Latios 1v1)?

The point is that while Sableye requires support pretty much every mon in this metagame does as well, and you don't have to have the entire team to be focused or significantly supporting Sableye, that's why those balance teams exist. And having hazard control that can only be deterred through Mold Breaker, extreme type and move advantages and sheer power while not being spinblocked or deterred with Defiant while having Knock Off, status, and a cockblock to stallbreakers like Gengar is well worth Sableye's disadvantages.

Also how are the only hazard users that Mega Sableye beats Skarmory and Ferrothorn lol. It's not like defensive Lando, TankChomp, Hippowdon, support Ttar, Chansey, Celebi, Mew, and more don't exist, Sableye literally comes in, tanks their strongest hit and heals or burns them and then 1v1s from there. Even things that you'd think would beat Sableye like Klefki or Heatran can't reliably get up hazards on Sableye; Klefki needs significant investment to even 2HKO the standard Sab spread with Dazzling Gleam, and Sableye is EVed to take on Heatran, even Magma Tran for the most part since even after the residual damage it's still only about a 10% chance to 2HKO and keep in mind that you yourself said that one of the biggest problems with Mega Metagross was that "it misses so much oml" Magma Tran has even bigger problems with that. Like even against offensive Landorus or Garchomp Sableye has a pretty good chance of winning the 1v1 thanks to burns unless you're running Lum.

I'm actually more or less neutral on a Sableye rise because I don't think that much has changed for it but the arguments that you make against it are kind of exaggerated and don't really reflect Sableye's effectiveness imo.

Also pretty on board with the Slowking rise, I'm probably more or less restating arguments but the ability to check emerging wallbreakers such as Volcanion and Nidoking as well as the ever-present Keldeo and Diancie far better than Slowbro could hope to do along with still being a decent check to stuff like Lopunny and non-Tpunch Metagross is pretty huge. Like sure the rise in Pursuit is kind of detrimental but Slowbro's also affected by this, same thing applies to the rise in Grass-types except Slowking is not as pressured against the likes of Amoonguss. Like NotFalse said trying to EV Slowbro to Slowking doesn't work because it actually ends up being more inefficient, so Slowking is able to retain its niche. Obviously less splashable than Slowbro, that's why it's still two subranks lower even after the rise but the ability to better check certain balance breakers better than its counterpart is enough to warrant a raise imo.

Chansey should also probably rise too, unlike Mega Sableye this mon is really what keeps stall together. Being a hard check / counter to some of the most potent special wallbreakers like Volcanion, Nidoking, LO special Kyurem, Latios, Charizard Y, non-mixed Thundurus, while still having almost the same amount of physical bulk as a support Tyranitar is just insane. Just looking at B+ Chansey definitely doesn't deserve to be on the level of Manectric and Gengar, which are struggling more and more, Magnezone, whose only niche is trapping Steels and being an ok check to Fairies, Latias, which despite the release of Volcanion is still lacking compared to Mega and Latios. It provides far more support than Amoonguss in that it doesn't just Spore and sit there after fishing for poisons, it can heal up your team, spread status, deal consistent chip damage with Seismic Toss, and just flat out wall as much if not more stuff than Amoonguss. Not much might have changed for Chansey besides the banning of Hoopa and slight slowing down of the metagame, but just going down the VR and looking at B+ Chansey just seems incredibly out of place for the immense amount of support and blanket checking it provides.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I will update this later but sableye does not need an entire team to function effectively. I think you have mistaken sableye with stall as a playstyle. Sableye has a place on balance and BO if used effectively.

I feel like BO is a bit of a stretch, but yes, balance. I believe what he is trying to get at is how much it does rely on its fellow stall team members, but, that's just stall in general. They all meld perfectly together to cover each others weaknesses, which I wouldn't use as reason for it not to rise. I don't fully agree with it going up, but I wouldn't state the above as a counter to such. I won't go into why I don't feel it should rise, as it would end up being the Rotom-W fiasco all over again I'm sure. Everyone here thinks their opinion is superior, to include myself, so hard heads butting can get pretty wild. Although, I like to think I refrain from stooping so low as to insult people like they did last page. . .

Anyways,
Custap + Endure Dugtrio is fucking insane. I love it.
I'll end this with that.

 

[Ajwf]

You realize that Tangrowth/Amoongus usage is the reason everything dropped and tangrowth in particular absolutely destroys Breloom near regardless of set.

Right now there are a larger amount of viable grass types than usual in OU. Not exactly a sign Loom loves. And while we're in a meta where EQ is used quite a bit, near every standard EQ user is neutral/resistant to Loom's stabs outside excadrill. Not to mention the meta eq's unanimously outspeed loom and can hit it with coverage.

 

[Gary]

Yeah Zard-Y to me doesn't fit very well in B+. The main argument for dropping it is due to how it's not very splashable and it's restricted to certain builds that are pretty prepared for, such as the whole Zard-Y + T-tar + Keldeo + Exca combo that everyone uses. Zard-Y's checks are also arguably more omnipresent, with Mega Latias being the best fat Mega as well as Mega Diancie being the best offensive Mega, and then you still have stuff like T-tar and Terrakion. However, while Zard-Y is pretty team restrictive and requires a decent amount of support to be a huge threat, a lot of the Pokemon you pair it with are very good in the current metagame, mainly Keldeo, T-tar, and Exca is still a good spinner despite it struggling a bit because of Lando-T usage. Most of its hard counters are still dick slapped by T-tar, and while SR can be a problem, it's still not that difficult to find opportunities to get Zard-Y in for free, especially with fatter teams running around. The rise in certain meta trends such as fat Lando-T, Amoonguss/Tangrowth, drop in Talonflame, and Phys Def Clefable makes its wallbreaking abilities very useful. While there are other wallbreakers to choose from such as Mega Medi and Mega Hera which require less support, Zard-Y is a LOT harder to play around overall IMO, because outside of Chansey it really doesn't have anything that can continually switch into on BO or balance, as practically all of its "counters" are trapped by T-tar and can't even switch in repeatedly. Spamming High Jump Kick is pretty easy too, but it still has counterplay to it such as Lando-T pivots and Mega Sableye just completely shuts it down, while Fire Blast outside of Chansey can just be freely spammed without risking anything, and even Chansey hates being potentially taking CB Pursuit damage from T-tar, which limits its chances to switch into Zard.

Sure it does face competition and it does require support, but it's still such a threatening Pokemon that people don't really try to prep for anymore outside of slapping a Lati on their team, which isn't even considered a great answer to it anymore with T-tar being everywhere. Saying its on the same level as Mega Alt is pathetic, because outside of stall and maybe HO, Zard-Y still carries its weight in plenty of matches and it honestly loves the current meta due to the rise in fat shit. Volcanion isn't even comparable to it tbh, because outside of fitting on similar builds, it's slow as balls, easier to check, walled by fat waters, and depends a LOT on Steam Eruption burns to break through its switch-ins, and it needs Specs to be strong. Putting it in a rank with something that absolutely hates current meta trends doesn't make much sense (Mega Alt), and putting it below something that is currently struggling a lot atm due to meta trends (Mega Gardevoir). It's definitely a solid Pokemon that I don't think should be dropped because of it being restricted to certain builds, when those builds aren't even bad lol. The meta isn't really that unfavorable to it, because while it may have more common checks, it has even more opportunities to spam Fire Blast.

 

[BuzzkillAmpharos]

I would like to have a nomination here and that would be to move regular Scizor to B. Many highly underestimate just how good of a late game sweeper a banded scizor can be. With the banded set it has access to Bullet Punch, U Turn, Knock Off, Superpower, and Pursuit. This thing can absolutely destroy some of the best pokemon in the tier and in my opinion as actually gotten better recently with the rise of mega latias, offensive rockers like Clefable (which it beats without flamethrower), and it can OHKO most Heatrans other than a Phys Def set. The main problem is obviously its speed and that is for sure one huge problem with this mon. But with the ability to pursuit trap latis, gain momentum with u turn, destroy fairies like Mega Diancie and Clefable, and on top of that be able to beat some of its best checks like Ferrothorn and Heatran with a superpower, it is hard to believe this thing is on the same level as Celebi, Alomomola, and Mega Swampert.

And while the emergence of defensive Lando T has hurt Scizor it does have 5 other mons to support it. Its pairing with Rotom Wash is amazing as nearly all of Scizor's counters like Talonflame get beat by the pivoting Rotom Wash. And with Rotom Wash being at such a high peak this is a great time for Scizor to shine. Not to mention it does not take up the mega spot that Mega Scizor does, allowing you to run things like Mega Medicham. And while it may be somewhat outclassed by its mega form, I'd argue they provide completely different roles but Mega Scizor being a much more bulky variant and not as immediately offensive threatening as its base form. Yeah Keldeo and Skarm beat Scizor too, but with Rotom Wash almost all of those threats are neutralized. I think that Scizor certainly deserves to be on the same level as things like Gastrodon, Reuniclus, and Kingdra, mainly just because of how threatening the Choice Band set is to so many teams.

 

[HailFall]

I would like to have a nomination here and that would be to move regular Scizor to B. Many highly underestimate just how good of a late game sweeper a banded scizor can be. With the banded set it has access to Bullet Punch, U Turn, Knock Off, Superpower, and Pursuit. This thing can absolutely destroy some of the best pokemon in the tier and in my opinion as actually gotten better recently with the rise of mega latias, offensive rockers like Clefable (which it beats without flamethrower), and it can OHKO most Heatrans other than a Phys Def set. The main problem is obviously its speed and that is for sure one huge problem with this mon. But with the ability to pursuit trap latis, gain momentum with u turn, destroy fairies like Mega Diancie and Clefable, and on top of that be able to beat some of its best checks like Ferrothorn and Heatran with a superpower, it is hard to believe this thing is on the same level as Celebi, Alomomola, and Mega Swampert.

And while the emergence of defensive Lando T has hurt Scizor it does have 5 other mons to support it. Its pairing with Rotom Wash is amazing as nearly all of Scizor's counters like Talonflame get beat by the pivoting Rotom Wash. And with Rotom Wash being at such a high peak this is a great time for Scizor to shine. Not to mention it does not take up the mega spot that Mega Scizor does, allowing you to run things like Mega Medicham. And while it may be somewhat outclassed by its mega form, I'd argue they provide completely different roles but Mega Scizor being a much more bulky variant and not as immediately offensive threatening as its base form. Yeah Keldeo and Skarm beat Scizor too, but with Rotom Wash almost all of those threats are neutralized. I think that Scizor certainly deserves to be on the same level as things like Gastrodon, Reuniclus, and Kingdra, mainly just because of how threatening the Choice Band set is to so many teams.

(apologies if parts of this come off as rambling/confusing i tried to make it as clear as possible but its easy to not notice errors as you type)

CB Scizor struggles a lot unfortunately and is incredibly prediction reliant. Its to the point where there is rarely ever a situation wherein you aren't forced to play mind games with the opponent upon entry. So much in the tier just completely cockblocks at least one of the moves cb scizor has the potential to lock itself into.

Lets look at a realistic situation where you send cb scizor in on clef, but your opponent still has a heatran in the back. There are four possible outcomes: 1) You bullet punch clefable and it dies; 2) the opponent predicts you and sends in heatran to eat up your bullet punch; 3) you predict the heatran switchin successfully and go for superpower; 4) you predict the heatran switchin and go for superpower, but your opponent keeps clefable in.

In outcome 1, you do reap the immediate benefit of beating the opponents clefable, but now heatran comes in on you and sets rocks, or goes for lava plume to try and kill you or burn the switcin. In outcome 2, you gain nothing and the opponent can set rocks, lava plume, same as last time. In outcome 3, you beat the heatran but now clefable can come in on you and twave you or the thing that tries to switchin to you. Finally in outcome 4, you gain nothing and clefable gets a free twave off on you and your switchin.

In all of these situations you can see that the end result is a loss of momentum for the scizor user. Now of course it can be said of all choiced pokemon that they can be taken advantage of, but it is especially true of cb scizor due to the sheer number of poekmon that resist at least one of its moves. Very few other viable choice users in ou are just as easily taken advantage of, and this all stems back to the fact that scizor's stab combo just isnt all that impressive and its excessively reliant on fighting type coverage. Steel types are common in ou, and most of them easily eat up scizor's stab moves meaning scizor has to sucessfully predict a switchin and choose superpower to break past them, but at that point youre left with a -1 attack and defense cb scizor locked into a non stab move-- setup bait for almost anything. These are not the qualities one would expect from an effective choice item user.

You keep bringing up how the cb set is "so threatening to some teams"... Which ones? Switching into it may not always be easy but its checked by the same pokemon that check mega scizor, a top threat in ou. Any team worth its salt has at least SOME way to beat mega scizor, even if mega scizor is one of its weaknesses meaning that the same could be said for normal scizor.

As a pursuit trapper, cb scizor struggles as pokemon like latios can break it with hidden power fire, and scizor is easily put in range of offensive starmie's hydro pump as it does not pack roost. Mega latias' increased usage does not affect scizor's viability much as the majority of them run reflect type. This allows them to escape pursuit trapping from scizor without dying. The popularity of rocky helmet lando and garchomp doesnt help scizor out much either unfortunately, due to how they both punish scizor's every move. Furthermore the rise of volcanion, another mon that easily comes in on most scizor, also takes its toll on cb scizor's viability.

You brought up that mega scizor is less immediately threatening. Offensive SD mega scizor is nearly as threatening as CB scizor right off the bat, and i think youre underestimating mega scizor if you say otherwise. Its similar to CB talonflame vs SD talonflame really, albeit quite not so extreme but the point is that offensive mega scizor already has insane damage output and the extra provided by cb really isnt extreme enough that it is much less threatening. Can you name any situations where the CB nabs scizor a KO it wouldnt get otherwise? This is a serious question i may be wrong. I just really think mega scizor is so much better in very nearly every way and while it does take up a mega slot, mega scizor has much better bulk, the capability to sd, access to roost, and much much more cb scizor could only dream of. While non mega sd scizor sets do have some merit, these have issues in having far less natural bulk, poorer attack on defensive sets, and being easily worn down on offensive LO sets while having a very poor speed stat to boot.

I really have to disagree that scizor deserves to be ranked B alongside the other poekmon in that rank. Gastrodon has good defensive utility and can double as a wincon thanks to its curse set. Breloom is an offensive powerhouse breaking down bulkier teams with its access to spore and high power STABs while also threatening faster teams with its own techinican priority. Quagsire has incredible defensive utility blanket checking a huge chunk of the meta and invalidating most of the boosting mons in ou thanks to its incredible ability. Saying cb scizor is as good as any of these mons should really raise some eyebrows imo, because its just not that good.

 

[OverlordDerp]

(apologies if parts of this come off as rambling/confusing i tried to make it as clear as possible but its easy to not notice errors as you type)

CB Scizor struggles a lot unfortunately and is incredibly prediction reliant. Its to the point where there is rarely ever a situation wherein you aren't forced to play mind games with the opponent upon entry. So much in the tier just completely cockblocks at least one of the moves cb scizor has the potential to lock itself into.

Lets look at a realistic situation where you send cb scizor in on clef, but your opponent still has a heatran in the back. There are four possible outcomes: 1) You bullet punch clefable and it dies; 2) the opponent predicts you and sends in heatran to eat up your bullet punch; 3) you predict the heatran switchin successfully and go for superpower; 4) you predict the heatran switchin and go for superpower, but your opponent keeps clefable in.

In outcome 1, you do reap the immediate benefit of beating the opponents clefable, but now heatran comes in on you and sets rocks, or goes for lava plume to try and kill you or burn the switcin. In outcome 2, you gain nothing and the opponent can set rocks, lava plume, same as last time. In outcome 3, you beat the heatran but now clefable can come in on you and twave you or the thing that tries to switchin to you. Finally in outcome 4, you gain nothing and clefable gets a free twave off on you and your switchin.

In all of these situations you can see that the end result is a loss of momentum for the scizor user. Now of course it can be said of all choiced pokemon that they can be taken advantage of, but it is especially true of cb scizor due to the sheer number of poekmon that resist at least one of its moves. Very few other viable choice users in ou are just as easily taken advantage of, and this all stems back to the fact that scizor's stab combo just isnt all that impressive and its excessively reliant on fighting type coverage. Steel types are common in ou, and most of them easily eat up scizor's stab moves meaning scizor has to sucessfully predict a switchin and choose superpower to break past them, but at that point youre left with a -1 attack and defense cb scizor locked into a non stab move-- setup bait for almost anything. These are not the qualities one would expect from an effective choice item user.

You keep bringing up how the cb set is "so threatening to some teams"... Which ones? Switching into it may not always be easy but its checked by the same pokemon that check mega scizor, a top threat in ou. Any team worth its salt has at least SOME way to beat mega scizor, even if mega scizor is one of its weaknesses meaning that the same could be said for normal scizor.

As a pursuit trapper, cb scizor struggles as pokemon like latios can break it with hidden power fire, and scizor is easily put in range of offensive starmie's hydro pump as it does not pack roost. Mega latias' increased usage does not affect scizor's viability much as the majority of them run reflect type. This allows them to escape pursuit trapping from scizor without dying. The popularity of rocky helmet lando and garchomp doesnt help scizor out much either unfortunately, due to how they both punish scizor's every move. Furthermore the rise of volcanion, another mon that easily comes in on most scizor, also takes its toll on cb scizor's viability.

You brought up that mega scizor is less immediately threatening. Offensive SD mega scizor is nearly as threatening as CB scizor right off the bat, and i think youre underestimating mega scizor if you say otherwise. Its similar to CB talonflame vs SD talonflame really, albeit quite not so extreme but the point is that offensive mega scizor already has insane damage output and the extra provided by cb really isnt extreme enough that it is much less threatening. Can you name any situations where the CB nabs scizor a KO it wouldnt get otherwise? This is a serious question i may be wrong. I just really think mega scizor is so much better in very nearly every way and while it does take up a mega slot, mega scizor has much better bulk, the capability to sd, access to roost, and much much more cb scizor could only dream of. While non mega sd scizor sets do have some merit, these have issues in having far less natural bulk, poorer attack on defensive sets, and being easily worn down on offensive LO sets while having a very poor speed stat to boot.

I really have to disagree that scizor deserves to be ranked B alongside the other poekmon in that rank. Gastrodon has good defensive utility and can double as a wincon thanks to its curse set. Breloom is an offensive powerhouse breaking down bulkier teams with its access to spore and high power STABs while also threatening faster teams with its own techinican priority. Quagsire has incredible defensive utility blanket checking a huge chunk of the meta and invalidating most of the boosting mons in ou thanks to its incredible ability. Saying cb scizor is as good as any of these mons should really raise some eyebrows imo, because its just not that good.

I don't really have a rebuttal, per se, but maybe you can consider the LO Offensive set for non-mega Scizor as well as the CB set when discussing its viability? I'm pretty sure it hits, on average, 20-25% harder than its mega counterpart with the same EVs (max attack max speed jolly/adamant) while holding LO, but I don't know if it's outclassed due to how infrequently I see it. If anyone who's actually used the set can chime in, it'd be appreciated.

 

[Martin]

I'm gonna quote something that bludz posted in the weekly research thread a few weeks ago because it touches on the whole LO v.s. CB argument really nicely:

I feel like there's a notion that CB should be the go to set because of how hard it hits off the bat, ability to Pursuit trap and act like a pivot with U-turn. However, I would argue that this niche has lost a lot of viability. Rocky Helmet abusers in particular have made life very problematic for Scizor as a pivot - if it gets worn down its forced to rely on BP due to its low speed, and BP is not that hard to switch into. It's also quite weak to hazard stacking unlike many popular pivots in Torn, Lando-T and Rotom, which means it's longevity in this role is lackluster. Pursuit is kinda nice but realistically done better by other mons who don't get bopped by HP Fire Lati.

I personally believe the best regular Scizor set is offensive SD. With a Life Orb equipped, its actually stronger than offensive Mega Scizor and can be a very nice hole puncher or late game cleaner if you are already using your Mega slot. It still has respectable bulk and nice typing, meaning it can still set up a fair amount of the time.

To anyone who is considering trying out regular Scizor in today's metagame, I would recommend that you try SD Life Orb instead of CB. I really think it's more of a threat.

I personally agree with this, and the things he touches on here are very applicable here in particular given a handful of trends that I have seen. First and foremost, he touches on Rocky Helmet. While admittedly Rocky Helmet Garchomp has fallen from its former grace, it still sees enough usage to apply here. In addition, PhysDef Lando-T almost always carrys Rocky Helmet nowadays, which simply wasn't the case back when CB was non-mega Scizor's best set, and with PhysDef Helmet Tangrowth being more common and being able to take very from Bullet Punch and Superpower due to its obcene physical bulk and net a free 1/6 onto Scizor without even needing to do anything, and given that current trends are pretty favoring for Ferrothorn in general that's another thing which can just wear it down as it does anything other than Superpower. Next up he touches on hazards. In the current meta, more teams are choosing to forgo hazard control which, in turn, is leading to an increase in spikes stacking. This seriously hurts the viability of grounded VoltTurners, and then you also need to consider that both Rotom-W and Lando-T are retaining consistently high usage for their ability to act as ungrounded VoltTurners while having good synergy with wallbreakers such as Volcanion and Nidoking--with both of them heavily pressuring Scizor with 4x BP resistance+Wisp and Helmet+Intimidate+U-turn resistance, respectively.

Basically what I'm saying is that, while the CB set is definitely worth considering with regards to its ranking (we rank based on its overall effectiveness in the meta, which means encompassing all viable sets), I think that the primary focus should be on its LO set, with secondary focuses going onto CB and its ability to run stuff like Leftovers/Lum Berry/Metal Coat(/Silver Powder I guess) etc. to act as substitutes for different MegaZor sets. I personally lean towards having it not rise simply because MegaZor is almost always better, but my opinion on it isn't particularly strong as there are valid points for both sides of is argument.

 

[Leo3103]

Ok. So. I get that MMedicham is a good mon, played against it, get that it's a complete wrecking crew, has fake out/non-stab priority, but why is it so much higher than MGallade? I think C+ rank for MGallade is super low considering in comparison to MMedicham you're bulkier and faster, has a gross amount of coverage (pretty sure it has access to every type of move), taunt/will-O-wisp, SD/Bulk Up, Substitute, inner focus for anti-fake out, priority move in shadow sneak, etc... Guy does ALOT. I'm not saying that he should be as high as MMedicham, just think he deserves a rise, unless I'm missing something entirely between the 2. I get that super power is good, but such a discrepancy of tiers seems off to me. Is his usage that high?

 

[GlassVeins]

Ok. So. I get that MMedicham is a good mon, played against it, get that it's a complete wrecking crew, has fake out/non-stab priority, but why is it so much higher than MGallade? I think C+ rank for MGallade is super low considering in comparison to MMedicham you're bulkier and faster, has a gross amount of coverage (pretty sure it has access to every type of move), taunt/will-O-wisp, SD/Bulk Up, Substitute, inner focus for anti-fake out, priority move in shadow sneak, etc... Guy does ALOT. I'm not saying that he should be as high as MMedicham, just think he deserves a rise, unless I'm missing something entirely between the 2. I get that super power is good, but such a discrepancy of tiers seems off to me. Is his usage that high?

Because if you want a fast attacker, you're better off with m-lopunny in almost every respect. There were numerous posts awhile back on it. M-gallade is powerful, but to really break walls he has to get a SD under his belt, and that really limits his perspectives. He might be slightly better now with fewer talonflame and m-sableye around, but not good enough to compete with m-lopunny and m-medi. Also, inner focus is mediocre compared to scrappy. It's a terrifying stallbreaker, but there isn't much that has dramatically changed.

 

[Oregon Wizard]

Ok. So. I get that MMedicham is a good mon, played against it, get that it's a complete wrecking crew, has fake out/non-stab priority, but why is it so much higher than MGallade? I think C+ rank for MGallade is super low considering in comparison to MMedicham you're bulkier and faster, has a gross amount of coverage (pretty sure it has access to every type of move), taunt/will-O-wisp, SD/Bulk Up, Substitute, inner focus for anti-fake out, priority move in shadow sneak, etc... Guy does ALOT. I'm not saying that he should be as high as MMedicham, just think he deserves a rise, unless I'm missing something entirely between the 2. I get that super power is good, but such a discrepancy of tiers seems off to me. Is his usage that high?

The problem with Gallade is that he is just completely outclassed by all the other fighting type megas in OU. His speed is alright, but Lopunny does the fast fighter thing soo much better, and 160 attack without any kind of boost and a Jolly nature is IMO really underwhelming reaching only 419. I mean, LO Weavile hits harder than that. The extra bulk on Gallade doesn't really get him much, as his typing leaves him susceptible to revenge killing. He can do very little against Latios, Mega Scizor, Mega Sableye, Slowbro, any fairy, and any bird spammer or strong priority user. The amount of support Gallade requires to be a threat is far too big to warrant a raise. The only thing you mentioned that is unique to Gallade is Inner Focus, which is IMO the worst thing about him. C+ is right at home for Gallade, as there are so many better options for a mega slot than him.