Metagame np: NU Stage 14 - City Escape (Baton Pass + Speed Boosts BANNED)

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FINITOOOO

lolgroudon
Hello all,

I've been playing on Showdown for a while now, but haven't been too active here. Here's my two cents and I hope it's worth something.

Earlier, a user pointed out that perhaps Combusken is the problem. Considering that it's a force to be reckoned with on its own, it has the unique trait of being a baton passer that can also scare mons out, unlike Ninjask.

Another user counter-argued, and stated that they've seen moderate success with Ninjask and other speed passing teams. If this is true, is it possible to post replays of this in action? Of course, I plan on trying this out for myself, but considering you've had success with it, perhaps you could suggest teammates for these supposed Rock Polish/Agility passers so that we can test the passing out for ourselves.

I would love to be able to form my opinion based off of hard evidence (higher ladder replays, tournament replays, and my own gameplay), so any replays would be appreciated!

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.
 
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One of the big reasons why Combusken is so good in this strategy is because even if you are unable to utilize its Speed passing, it can still offer support for your team or, as FINITOOOO mentioned, threaten the opposing team. As such, I think it's important for any other potential passers to do the same. If you're going to build around Agility/Rock Polish pass, I'd recommend trying out some of these sets as the passers:


Solrock @ Leftovers / Babiri Berry
Ability: Levitate
248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Impish nature
- Stone Edge
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rock Polish
- Baton Pass

Stealth Rock would be nice on this set too, but I don't think you can pass up Stone Edge and Will-O-Wisp. I'm actually thinking that maybe Solrock wouldn't even be that bad as a non-Iron Head/Iron Tail Tauros check. Regardless, on one of these types of teams where you're spending one of your slots on a passer, Solrock can check Tauros, even if it has a Steel-type move, by running Babiri Berry. It also shits all over Kangaskhan, which is sick and likely important for a team running Speed pass. The Speed EVs are for Adamant Aggron.


Gorebyss @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
248 HP / 32 Def / 228 Spe
Timid nature
- Scald
- Substitute
- Agility
- Baton Pass

Bulky Water-types are good in general, and by virtue of its natural bulk and great typing, Gorebyss should have few problems setting up and passing at least a Speed boost or two, if not that and a Substitute. Scald lets you spread burns and makes it easier to bring in your recipient if you can't get up a Substitute. Also prevents Rhydon from coming in and either setting up alongside you are blasting away in wait for your Xatu. Speed is for Modest Aurorus.


Emolga @ Focus Sash
Ability: Motor Drive
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid nature
- Thunderbolt
- Encore
- Agility
- Baton Pass

A commonly utilized Speed passer, Emolga is often found paired alongside a threatening, yet slow partner, Exeggutor, which graciously accepts any boosts passed its way. While it is perhaps not the most effective of Speed passers, Emolga holds a very unique niche as a cute little flying mouse with just the most adorable little cheeky-cheeksies, yes it does, YES IT DOES!

Now that you have an idea of what you might be able to use as a Speed passer other than Combusken and Ninjask, I highly urge all of you to go out and test these things for yourselves. The only way to know whether something is broken is to experience it, so if you aren't running into these strategies, please try them out for yourselves!
 

toshimelonhead

Honey Badger don't care.
is a Tiering Contributor
So far I'm not sure of the overall problem, but I'll give three hypotheses:

1.) Combusken itself is too much for NU to handle.
2.) Speed passing with any of Combusken / Ninjask / Whirlipede / whatever is too much for NU to handle.
2a.) Giving a slower mon speed (Aggron) speed boosts is too much for NU to handle.
3.) Stored Power sweeping with Xatu / Musharna + speed boosts is too much for NU to handle.

I'm not sure if any of these are true at the moment, but I haven't seen much of any agility passing on the ladder so far.
 
Hi there, Whirlipede/Venipede does not get access to Baton Pass that is only Scolipede

thank you for your time :]

since i should probs put my 2 cents in here or my cynical post will get delete i feel that Speed+BP is not exactly a massive issue (from personal experience) with many different ways to counter-play against it i just personally have yet to properly find it a large issue with that being said however i can see how many would like it to be banned as why this suspect gained as much traction as it did.

Personally i still find Combusken to be the largest issue mostly due to its typing and ability to actually threaten a lot of pokemon out while maintaining its speed boosts and yes while Ninjask is also capable of doing Speed Boost+Baton Pass i have never found it on such a consistent level.

Same in turn goes for Agility/Rock Polish+Baton Pass and while i expect people to find success with it for a while personally i find its mostly due to the fact its just going to be plain unexpected as these sets are just recently noticed and only being used to find out if the strategy is truly broken. It will look like as such not because its broken but because who the hell expects a Solrock,Gorebyss and Emolga to be passing speed around, Emolga some people will because of the popularity of a poketuber, but still not everyone is gonna expect these sets and i feel is going to be giving misinformation then truly finding out exactly how good the strategy is with those passers.

tl;dr - Personally only find Combusken to be consistant and make Speed+BP a "broken" strat
 
I gotta quote something the goomy said:

"I personally don't find this strategy broken, annoying more than anything. However, I do feel like it moves the metagame to being more healthy/fun if we get rid of it anyway."

After all, isn't that the point of suspects? To make a more enjoyable, diverse tier? To make a tier where various pokemon have a chance to shine? That's the point of this suspect. The strategy isn't broken, but if we banned it, the tier would become more diverse, fun, and would definitely shift in the right direction.

Let me give an example: The generally annoying, rage-inducing strategy that is commonly referred to as chickenpass. This strategy involves (usually) Eviolite Combusken garnering boost and proceeding to pass said boosts to a Calm Mind Xatu, but it could be anything. It could be a Pinsir. An Exeggutor. A fucking Chatot. Can you imagine a Modest Choice Specs Chatot at +4 speed during the late game? Because I don't want to.

Of course, this strategy can be played around, yadda yadda yadda, you can have sub breakers, etc, CB aggron, YES, WE GET THAT IT HAS COUNTERS. But it makes this metagame more "stale". The problem isn't so much of "being broken" as it is "being overcentralizing". And the fact that it is as overcentralizing as it is and is something that must be taken into account as one of the premier threats to prepare for when teambuilding, even in the early stages, is enough of justification to allow a suspect.

tl;dr: The fact that it is as overcentralizing as it is bad enough.
 

The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
I gotta quote something the goomy said:

"I personally don't find this strategy broken, annoying more than anything. However, I do feel like it moves the metagame to being more healthy/fun if we get rid of it anyway."

After all, isn't that the point of suspects? To make a more enjoyable, diverse tier? To make a tier where various pokemon have a chance to shine? That's the point of this suspect. The strategy isn't broken, but if we banned it, the tier would become more diverse, fun, and would definitely shift in the right direction.

Let me give an example: The generally annoying, rage-inducing strategy that is commonly referred to as chickenpass. This strategy involves (usually) Eviolite Combusken garnering boost and proceeding to pass said boosts to a Calm Mind Xatu, but it could be anything. It could be a Pinsir. An Exeggutor. A fucking Chatot. Can you imagine a Modest Choice Specs Chatot at +4 speed during the late game? Because I don't want to.

Of course, this strategy can be played around, yadda yadda yadda, you can have sub breakers, etc, CB aggron, YES, WE GET THAT IT HAS COUNTERS. But it makes this metagame more "stale". The problem isn't so much of "being broken" as it is "being overcentralizing". And the fact that it is as overcentralizing as it is and is something that must be taken into account as one of the premier threats to prepare for when teambuilding, even in the early stages, is enough of justification to allow a suspect.

tl;dr: The fact that it is as overcentralizing as it is bad enough.
It's not overcentralizing at all because it's pretty inconsistent and not many people use it. And you ban things because they are broken, not because you don't like them.
 
so ive been laddering for reqs and wanted to throw my thoughts out there. for the majority of my laddering ive been using stall, and my method to beat xatu after it has been passed boosts is skill swap toxic bronzor. if i didnt have that, i would definitely feel the need to add one of the other countermeasures to chicken pass see: clear smog gastro, toxic musharna etc. i definitely think the strategy of combusken into xatu is a bit too easy, it can definitely be stopped or checked but just the premise of speed passing is so reliable. when building teams, i definitely have to think about this strategy just like any other top strategy or pokemon however if you dont have a pokemon that can prevent combusken from subbing AND damaging xatu on the switch in, you're going to have trouble. for example, xatu doesnt like switching in on pokemon like shiftry or mismagius, however combusken's typing and bulk allow it to stop a lot of the threats to xatu which effectively allows you to speed pass safely. the reason i mention combusken over other mons that have speed boost and baton pass is just bc combusken is used much more frequently while the other options like the one's ryan posted are seen as gimmicky. it's tough to decide whether to suspect a strategy or a pokemon and im honestly glad the council decided on speed boost + baton pass over combusken because combusken alone isnt broken. it's a great physical and special attacker but get's seen in a negative light because it has access to speed boost and bp. at the end of the day you have to ask yourself is this strat broken. is preparing for chicken pass in teambuilder the same as adding a check to a top mon like tauros. in my opinion, the need to 'prep' for speed pass is overcentralizing. xatu is only one of many speed pass recipients. as im sure a lot of you know, malamar is another top recipient because it has the ability to boost and attack at the same time, which when coupled with speed can be incredibly difficult to stop.

in an effort to avoid a longer post that no one will read all the way thru, ill end here.
 
It's not overcentralizing at all because it's pretty inconsistent and not many people use it. And you ban things because they are broken, not because you don't like them.
There's no word to describe "it's not broken but there'd be a more diverse and fun metagame if we ban it."
 
Overcentralizing?
Not really, baton pass and a boosting stats its s nice strategy but not broken , speacially in NU whn only a few pokes can do it. If you testing speed and pass why not test calm mind and pass or defense and pass? they should be as broken as the others, but no way in earth that calm mimnd baton pass musharna is broken. Or you can even use it on smeargle and be literally passing geomancies around... This suspesct is dumb imo, and i only speak because I used to paly a lot of NU but left after all the banning in this tier. Whats NU? a tier filled witha few GODPOKES abusers that dont like other funner strategies around..
 
Not really, baton pass and a boosting stats its s nice strategy but not broken , speacially in NU whn only a few pokes can do it. If you testing speed and pass why not test calm mind and pass or defense and pass? they should be as broken as the others, but no way in earth that calm mimnd baton pass musharna is broken. Or you can even use it on smeargle and be literally passing geomancies around... This suspesct is dumb imo, and i only speak because I used to paly a lot of NU but left after all the banning in this tier. Whats NU? a tier filled witha few GODPOKES abusers that dont like other funner strategies around..
While you bring up a good point, the reason speed pass was chosen over cm/sd/barrier etc pass is because passing speed is very safe. Combusken protects and subs constantly, never having to fear a crit until it passes. And that's assuming it didnt get a sub up which is very possible. Additionally, once you pass speed boosts it's statistically in your favor to get crit less because you are moving first. Assuming you pass to Xatu, it can obviously get crit while it sets up a few calm minds but it is able to take less attacks since it can attack whenever and when it does, it's moving first 99% of the time.
 

MZ

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This is true for Combusken, but not true for all the rest. How safe is trying to get up an agility with something random like Floatzel before fast Baton Passing to a frail sweeper? To me this suspect kinda threw Combusken out the window because it's more about proving that all these other little cases are broken enough to go for the complex ban and not just this one case that people actually think about as broken. Three PU mons were listed as speed passers which convinced people to complex ban the whole thing, but don't forget that you're also nerfing Scyther and Swellow and other random stuff. Even ignoring random LC mons, I just can't see how voting ban is an option since there's been pretty much nothing to support that some of these cases are broken, and while I'll work on experimenting and playing devil's advocate and hopefully someone provides replays of Agility BP Flareon or Flame Charge BP Rapidash being unfair but this seems like a really basic case of not everything qualifies to be on the chopping block. It feels like I'm missing the point somewhat but there's a lot of potential down to subsalac BP that's getting wasted along with this one combo people don't like because the ban is just too broad.
e: and I'm not saying everything has to be broken with it, but if we're going so far to give individual tiers a different BP clause then I'd like to see more than one or two kinda broken things
 
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While a lot of what you said is true, I would like to add some things.

- I don't think Floatzel is a great example of a non-Speed Boost speed passer. While he offers the highest base HP of any pokemon in NU that can learn the combination of Agility and BP, his defenses are very poor and he is simply too frail to attempt BP passes a lot of the time. That being said, you don't have to look too far for evidence of Floatzel sucessfully passing stuff. Realistic Waters posted this replay in the creative sets thread, and you can very well run Agility+BP and 3 coverage moves+SD on Sawsbuck instead of Dual Dance. Again, I don't think Floatzel is particularly great for an endeavor like this, but he obviously works.

- How are Scyther and Swellow nerfed? Because they have the potential to run agility+BP too? I guess I could see it with Scyther running a super bulky eviolity set against certain matchups, but Swellow is faaaaar to frail to ever be taken into consideration for a speed passer in my opinion. Also, I don't see how it would be considered a nerf when there are still multiple viable sets both of these mons could run, all of which are a LOT more common than any combination of BP and speed bosts on them. I'ma go out on a limb and say I think you would have a hard time providing me with replays that are not of yourself of people using Agility+BP Swellow.

- I really don't think the fact that stuff like SubSalac BP indirectly suffers from this ban is a bad thing. It is a gimmick that is going to work when your opponent does not expect it, but not a strategy you are going to chose because it steadily provides you with solid wins. I don't think the council has to limit themselves to banning stuff that is ridiculously broken. At the end of the day, it is their job to create a tier that is fun and engaging to play, and ideally balanced enough to be competetive. Pokemon, to me anyways, is a game of wits and predictions. You are operating under certain assumptions, and those are generally agreed upon to be true (as in: if you see a Regirock using Stealth Rock, you can safely assume that Rhydon on the enemy team is going to sport at LEAST one of Rock Polish and Swords Dance). Your job is to beat your opponent under these circumstances. Sure, you can grab a cheap win by abusing a gimmick your opponent didn't prepare for. Next time around, they ARE going to be prepared for it, though, and if you simply change up the gimmicks you are using to win, people eventually are going to figure out you merely rely on gimmicks to win and build accordingly. Sure, SubSalac BP is fun to dick around on ladder with, but sets like these have no place in a competetive environment to me.

I know this isn't exactly refuting your post as a whole and I wasn't trying to, I'm merely here to offer another perspective. I have thought pretty intensively about the suspect, and I think at the end of the day NU benefits from the ban more than not. What really changed my mind was the fact I realized I could take tournament games from people I likely wouldn't beat otherwise by abusing a gimmick like this, and that's not a good thing for a competetive environment imo.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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My entire point is you are nerfing all these examples, you can't simply ignore them because they aren't good. You're still hurting things that aren't broken, there's plenty of precedent for this being a problem. It'd have to be so stupid across a wider range of Pokemon to justify that, like OU's original BP ban. I wouldn't even mind if 5 or 6 users were just thoroughly broken, but otherwise you are just screwing over random mons regardless of how viable they are. As for the tournament play stuff, find a different ban then. After going for machoke I totally respect trying to save mons in the meta but this pretty clearly runs contrary to general banning philosophy of let's not hurt things that aren't broken just because we don't want to ban something unless it's really problematic circumstances like the original BP clause.
 
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I can very well ignore them because they aren't good. Much like I ignore mostly everything below C+ when it comes to team building, Agility BP Swellow is just never going to be a good set, because there's so many mons that can do it much better. The nerfs to them are inconsequential, because nobody ever uses these sets.

I can see your argument for not banning things that are thoroughly broken, and while I don't agree with it, you explained it perfectly clear and it's a valid opinion to have. In my personal opinion, though, banning should not be limited to broken stuff, but rather things that limit the enjoyment one can get out of a tier. Another example would be trapping in OU, a tier I have recently tried to get into. It's clearly not broken, but severely hinders my enjoyment of the tier, because every other team I see is merely "Mon that does stupidly well if it's checks are gone" + "Mon that traps the former mons check" + 4 filler.

Of course not everyone is going to agree - but that is why we have a voting system in place.
 

Pilo

uses walther
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
I haven't had much trouble dealing with this strategy whenever it pops up on the ladder nor have I felt like I was required to go out of my way to counter it and it alone but a suspect test only seems fair as it can feel unfair at times especially if an unprepared player is going up against it.

As easy as it is to get swept by a very fast Xatu, Malamar etc. There are many ways around this strategy: haze, clear smog, skill swap, worry seed, phasing and generally aggressive play forcing your opponent to pass into a less than ideal target are a just a few ways to combat this cheap trick. But most importantly speed =/= damage (except in the case of xatu) who even if it carries signal beam can be walled the likes of skunk and lix and mantine without any cm boosts and if it carries heat wave it struggles with prominent dark types like malamar.

At the end of the day speed pass is very hit or miss, sometimes it works incredibly well and sometimes it falls flat, I may not get to vote due to my subpar playing ability but if I could I'd vote against banning since there are simply too many ways to deal with it.
 
Personally I can understand banning Speed Boost plus Baton Pass, as it's generally very safe and an easy strategy to fit, use, and pull off, but I have some qualms about Agility/Polish Passing.

The thing that makes Speed Boost so good is that the poke can just sit safely behind a Protect wall, go on the offensive, or even cripple the opponent *see Will-o-wisp Combusken* while it continues to gain speed buffs to pass to a proper teammate. Where as with Agilitypass not only do you have to have the buff taking up a moveslot but also have the opportunities to use said buff. But the pokes that have access to the strategy are either aren't very viable or have better strategies to create wincons.

So unless somebody can convince me that any of the pokes that ryan mentioned or anything else (maybe even something like Flame Charge Chicken) can be easy and safe to pull off I think Agilitypass should be left alone.
 
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First post in NU~

So, I decided to expirement with Emolga using Agility + Baton Pass, and it had a few issues. Outside of Emolga's weakness to Stealth Rocks and lack of bulk, but the biggest one was Speed Passing is significantly less effective when the speed passer has to give up a turn to boost itself. One of the things that makes Combusken (and to a lesser extent Ninjask) so difficult to deal with is that it can hide behind protect or substitute or actually cripple your team (see will-o-wisp) while also boosting speed to pass. Agility/Rock Polish Passers have to leave themselves open for a turn to boost their speed unless they click substitute, but then they're not boosting speed. After switching Emolga for Combusken, my results improved dramatically because I didn't have to worry about wether or not my opponent would send in something that can KO Emolga while I went for agility and could instead focus on passing. As such, I'll be voting No Ban unless the parameters are changed to only ban the ability Speed Boost when in conjunction with Baton Pass. While this is an extremely complex ban (which is a problem), there is no evidence that Agility + Baton pass is good enough for a suspect. The other alternative is to ban Combusken itself, but that isn't necessary because Combusken isn't quite good enough to be banned.

Pretty much just change it to ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass, Agility + Baton Pass isn't broken in the slightest and the only reason it should be considered being banned is to avoid a complex ban, but Baton Pass is already complex enough so it's not to huge of an issue.
 

Ren-chon

Lifesbane, 36 layers. How does it look?
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
I don't really have anything to add to this discussion since all my points were already covered here (it deserves to be banned, too annoying to play against, cheap strat, most of the time you can't do shit against it, most counters are too specific to be fit on most teams, etc. etc.). I'm posting here just to dump a Chickenpass team I used for a good amount of my reqs matches that did surprisingly well barring some random sets or hax (yeah, hax. Don't use it if you're unlucky like me), so people can use it to test how well this strat works here, or even if they just want quick reqs.
Malamar @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Archeops @ Focus Sash
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Head Smash
- Stealth Rock
- Endeavor

Swoobat @ Light Clay
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Tailwind

Cottonee @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Stun Spore
- Tailwind
- Memento

Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

Xatu @ Kee Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 24 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Signal Beam
- Roost

Xatu outspeeds base 105 scarfers at +2 so don't be afraid to hit the manectric after one cm!


Guide: SR with cheops>Screens/Memento>Memento/Screens>Combusken>Win
 
Baton Pass aside, Life Orb Mesprit has been working very well for me on the suspect ladder. I've been using Grass Knot to cover and lure stuff like Rhydon and Gastrodon without missing coverage against Steelix and Aggron, two very irritating checks that can swing momentum if given the free turn. The metagame seems to have shifted in favor of offensive Mesprit with more proactive defensive Pokemon in place of Mega Audino, Musharna, etc. They're still around, but offensive Mega Audino appears to have become a bit more common and both have dropped off a bit since I last played with any regularity. With Xatu becoming more common and Shiftry taking the spot as the most common Dark-type around, I've also found Ice Beam to be much better than Signal Beam. There are still games, particularly ones with opposing Mesprit, where I wish I had Signal Beam, but outside of hitting a few specific targets, I've found it too weak to justify using unless you struggle with Malamar.

It pretty much goes without saying, but Mesprit in general has been really great. I ran into a specially defensive set with Thunder Wave the other day that really gave me trouble. Although its typing favors a physically defensive spread, Mesprit's raw bulk and high Speed for a defensive Pokemon allow it to come in on most special attackers and throw out a Thunder Wave or pivot back out with U-turn really easily. Mesprit's bulk in general does a lot to make up for the little defensive synergy it adds to the team outside of its Fighting resistance and Ground immunity. You can throw it out against most defensive Pokemon without fearing a lot outside of status.

Although I haven't used or encountered them, I think physical Mesprit sets are probably pretty weak right now. They have a lot more trouble in a metagame where Poison-types punish physical attackers (Weezing runs Will-O-Wisp, Garbodor runs Rocky Helmet and Aftermath), and there are a lot of generally bulky Pokemon (Rhydon, Steelix, Gastrodon, Mega Audino) that don't care about taking neutral hits.
 
After playing around with Agility pass I don't think it's fair to suspect it when you compare it to what Combusken and to a lesser extent Ninjask do. Right now as it stands there is no reason at all to use Agility pass when Combusken/ninjask gives you access to so much more. The ability to Sub down safely while still netting speed bonuses or wisp to cripple something in Combusken's base puts this style of speed boosting leagues ahead of any other forms of baton passing like the regular Agility pass.

I don't see the reason to suspect Agility passing at all as it's for one not broken, but two it's actually a really cool thing to pull off. When I see someone pull off an agility pass I don't think to myself "Oh that's so broken" I think it's really cool because it's not something you see everyday and teams that use it are generally really innovative.
If Speed Boost is the core issue then we shouldn't be trying to hit both it and Agility passing. If you look at both Ninjask and Combusken, both can work but only one really is consistent enough to be broken. Ninjask comes has so many problems ranging from it's x4 rock weakness, not offering the utility Combusken does, weak to pursuit if it's not behind a sub, and offers hardly any defensive value due to its low bulk. Combusken on the other hand offers both Wisp and bulk from Eviolite while also not having to worry about a SR weakness. This means that it's a much more consistent mon for the role then Ninjask is, and I'd argue this consistency issue is what keeps Ninjask from being broken like Combusken is right now.

If Agility pass and Ninjask passing aren't broken, then why are we suspecting them along with Combusken? Neither of them are inherently broken and at most they're just viable. Combusken is the only one who takes this to unhealthy levels so we should be trying to deal with it and not speed passing as a whole.

tl;dr: Agility passing and Ninjask passing aren't broken/ unhealthy and the only issue comes from Combusken.


EDIT: I understand a lot of people want to keep Combusken as without the BP set it's a cool mon in the tier, but if a new set was found (chicken pass) I don't see why we'd think of the two sets as two different mons. If chicken pass is broken, then we suspect Combusken because they're the same mon, not try to directly nerf it with a complex ban to try and get it to stay. It's like when Feraligatr got Sheer Force. We didn't look at it like 'Oh torrent gatr is competely balanced so lets go suspect sheer force!' We didn't look at SF gatr and Torrent as two different mons, we look at it as Gatr being broken. Combusken is the same thing. If this new Combusken set makes Combusken broken then we ban Combusken. I don't see the reason to jump through hoops to try and make chicken pass and Combusken two different things.
 
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First post in NU~

So, I decided to expirement with Emolga using Agility + Baton Pass, and it had a few issues. Outside of Emolga's weakness to Stealth Rocks and lack of bulk, but the biggest one was Speed Passing is significantly less effective when the speed passer has to give up a turn to boost itself. One of the things that makes Combusken (and to a lesser extent Ninjask) so difficult to deal with is that it can hide behind protect or substitute or actually cripple your team (see will-o-wisp) while also boosting speed to pass. Agility/Rock Polish Passers have to leave themselves open for a turn to boost their speed unless they click substitute, but then they're not boosting speed. After switching Emolga for Combusken, my results improved dramatically because I didn't have to worry about wether or not my opponent would send in something that can KO Emolga while I went for agility and could instead focus on passing. As such, I'll be voting No Ban unless the parameters are changed to only ban the ability Speed Boost when in conjunction with Baton Pass. While this is an extremely complex ban (which is a problem), there is no evidence that Agility + Baton pass is good enough for a suspect. The other alternative is to ban Combusken itself, but that isn't necessary because Combusken isn't quite good enough to be banned.

Pretty much just change it to ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass, Agility + Baton Pass isn't broken in the slightest and the only reason it should be considered being banned is to avoid a complex ban, but Baton Pass is already complex enough so it's not to huge of an issue.
After playing around with Agility pass I don't think it's fair to suspect it when you compare it to what Combusken and to a lesser extent Ninjask do. Right now as it stands there is no reason at all to use Agility pass when Combusken/ninjask gives you access to so much more. The ability to Sub down safely while still netting speed bonuses or wisp to cripple something in Combusken's base puts this style of speed boosting leagues ahead of any other forms of baton passing like the regular Agility pass.

I don't see the reason to suspect Agility passing at all as it's for one not broken, but two it's actually a really cool thing to pull off. When I see someone pull off an agility pass I don't think to myself "Oh that's so broken" I think it's really cool because it's not something you see everyday and teams that use it are generally really innovative.
If Speed Boost is the core issue then we shouldn't be trying to hit both it and Agility passing. If you look at both Ninjask and Combusken, both can work but only one really is consistent enough to be broken. Ninjask comes has so many problems ranging from it's x4 rock weakness, not offering the utility Combusken does, weak to pursuit if it's not behind a sub, and offers hardly any defensive value due to its low bulk. Combusken on the other hand offers both Wisp and bulk from Eviolite while also not having to worry about a SR weakness. This means that it's a much more consistent mon for the role then Ninjask is, and I'd argue this consistency issue is what keeps Ninjask from being broken like Combusken is right now.

If Agility pass and Ninjask passing aren't broken, then why are we suspecting them along with Combusken? Neither of them are inherently broken and at most they're just viable. Combusken is the only one who takes this to unhealthy levels so we should be trying to deal with it and not speed passing as a whole.

tl;dr: Agility passing and Ninjask passing aren't broken/ unhealthy and the only issue comes from Combusken.


EDIT: I understand a lot of people want to keep Combusken as without the BP set it's a cool mon in the tier, but if a new set was found (chicken pass) I don't see why we'd think of the two sets as two different mons. If chicken pass is broken, then we suspect Combusken because they're the same mon, not try to directly nerf it with a complex ban to try and get it to stay. It's like when Feraligatr got Sheer Force. We didn't look at it like 'Oh torrent gatr is competely balanced so lets go suspect sheer force!' We didn't look at SF gatr and Torrent as two different mons, we look at it as Gatr being broken. Combusken is the same thing. If this new Combusken set makes Combusken broken then we ban Combusken. I don't see the reason to jump through hoops to try and make chicken pass and Combusken two different things.
Then why the ban on abilities in other tiers like Spped boost and baton pass. just ban that and let thee chicken stay i bet nu will appreciate it.
 
That's a better option the banning speed + BP, but you have to look at all the users of the strat in NU. Currently there are two options if you want speed boost + BP which is Combusken and Ninjask. Only one of these two are actually broken, so it makes no sense to suspect hit them both with the suspect. If Combusken is the problematic pokemon then I don't see why we'd be around the bush with suspecting it. People are trying to have their cake and eat it too in a situation where it just doesn't work.

I think if people wanted to keep Combusken, then hitting speed boost + BP would be the most optimal hit. But with that said it's still a huge nerf to Combusken even on its special sets and I don't think it would see much play if the ban went through, so making a complex ban to keep something that would be relatively weak after a ban like that isn't exactly something I'd consider worth it.
 
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Luck O' the Irish

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After I got my reqs I started using the chickenpass team rozes made to better get a feel with it. I was on the fence about speed pass being broken, just annoying mainly since I hadn't really faced a competent user of it but now that I've had quite a few games of using it it's definitely not healthy for this tier. While there are definitely ways of dealing with it, all busken needs to do is come in on something passive (ferroseed for example) and unless your opponent has something that specifically counters the boosting strategy then it's very difficult for them to come back. As other users of mentioned agilitypass is not as effective as speed boost since it's much less harder to set up and chances are you're going to end up passing +2 instead of +3 or higher. Thus as many users have mentioned, banning speed boost + baton pass seems like the most reasonable course of action in terms of minimal collateral to the tier.

However, I've found that ninjask is much less effective even compared to combusken. Every single game I've used ninjask there was an instance where using combusken instead would have made things so much easier. This is mainly expanding on Sir Kay's post earlier, since I think looking at combusken instead of just speed pass might be worth looking into. Combusken is just much better equipped at a speed passing role than ninjask is, and for the following reasons:
  • Will-O-Wisp: This is fucking huge. Yeah running it makes combusken taunt bait I suppose (not that it really matters since youre passing to xatu) but the ability to patch up xatu's defense when it passes and more easily set up subs can be huge when xatu is passed speed. It also means that combusken is less liable to be set up on other things- stuff like barbaracle, rhydon, and kabutops can't just click their respective boosting move and then smash everything for free. There are some things that can set up on combusken but not giving rock types free set up means that they will have a much harder time actually beating xatu. With ninjask, on the other hand, you need to completely remove these rock types before you try to pass.
  • Better typing: Not being weak to rock is also really big for combusken, as in the event sr comes up before you begin building up speed with your passer, ninjask is both limited in terms of how many boosts it can pass and you have no chance to do it twice. Combusken's typing also synergizes much better with xatu- not being weak to rock, and resisting ice and dark are really nice for xatu. This can come into play against something like hariyama. If hariyama actually wants a chance to disrupt the strategy, it needs to click knock off as speed is passed to xatu, getting rid of kee berry. With ninjask, this is pretty simple; you just spam knock off and wait until it gets passed. With chicken, however, one bad prediction and you probably just lost. If you cc predicting protect or sub but the chickenpass user goes xatu, you pretty much just lost. If you knock off as they click sub, you also pretty much just lost. This situation is applicable against a lot of mons.
  • Combusken has other equally viable sets. These sets also screw you over if you predict incorrectly. Back 8 months ago, switching your thick fat hariyama into combusken was a pretty safe play, knowing you would soak up what was likely life orb fire blast and threaten with the OHKO. If you do that now and go into yama as they click sub you may as well click x. The converse is also possible: you can go into clear smog gastrodon on busken to stop chickenpass and then bam youre 2HKO'd by life orb focus blast. The fact that it has these other sets can make it difficult to identify whether or it's standard combusken offense or chickenpass (rozes team is a perfect example) and it changes how you play around it. Given all the hype around chickenpass these days it's not stupid to assume you're facing a speed pass but
I'm not completely sold on the ban chicken bandwagon since I do think banning speed boost + baton pass (or just speedpass in general) would make combusken fine in nu again. However this can be viewed as a set that makes chicken itself broken, and going through all of this complex banning to get rid of a strategy that's only broken when you keep one mon in the equation just seems unnecessary and against policy, just like OU didn't ban protean to let greninja stay when it's not broken on kecleon.

I think that if people think that combusken on its own has a positive enough presence in nu then banning speed pass is fine but otherwise getting rid of it just makes sense. Something to think about
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
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So I've been seeing a lot of posts basically questioning why we suspected any speed boosts + baton pass, instead of something else (in most cases the ability speed boost + the move baton pass, or just combusken). Hopefully I can answer some of those questions.

First things first I want to say that we as a council in no way cherrypicked this suspect in order to keep Combusken in the tier, if the problem was that simple I'd like to think we would have come to that conclusion a long time ago and gone through with it. I personally take it as an insult when people say things like "they're only doing this suspect to keep combusken" because it calls into question not only my integrity, but the entire council's.

I'll now be going through some points and try to explain the logic behind them (it's almost 1AM so if I make a glaring mistake that's probably why):

Q. Isn't this ban incredibly complex? Why is this complex ban being allowed when PU was just denied something incredibly similar (in regards to Dynamicpunch + No Guard)?
A: Short answer: tiering is complicated, especially so regarding bp. there's precedent for making clauses to allow instances of baton pass and we're updating it to suit nu. I'm going to quote something Sam already said in a recent policy review thread regarding complex bans
Complex bans aren't straight up never allowed, but to me they're pretty much a solution needed to salvage a metagame (and by salvage I mean 'the meta is literally unplayable without this ban'), or special circumstances. When the complex ban for baton pass was instituted, it was viewed as something necessary to salvage ORAS metagames. It's something already in place and something I think is going to be treated differently than something like Dynamic Punch in PU because it has been argued and actual things have been implemented to at least see the effect.
Basically the best way I have to answer this question is yes, the ban is complex but unlike PU there's precedent for Baton Pass and we're doing what we think solves the root of the problem with regards to our current tiering policies. If you'd like more information on baton pass bans, complex bans, etc. I recommend checking out the policy review thread and reading through some of the older threads on bp and the newer ones, it's interesting stuff and it'll prob give you a headache the first time through.

Q: Why not just Combusken?
A: Short answer: That doesn't fix the problem. The council does not believe this will fix the problem. Past and current council members took some time to test out different variants of speed passing (i.e. Ninjask Pass) and we came to the conclusion that those strategies were at the very least on par with Combusken pass and would not completely solve the issue. The last thing I want to do when running a suspect test is find out a week later that the strategy we're trying to nerf is still entirely possible by legitimate means we may have overlooked.

Q: Why not just Speed Boost?
A: Short answer: That doesn't fix the problem. We originally wanted to suspect baton pass with any boosts, however seeing how controversial this was we were only able to get approval for a suspect of speed boosts and baton pass. You could say not just suspecting speed boost is an oversight because agility pass emolga (and others) is(are) arguably far less broken than combusken or ninjask, but I firmly believe there is potential (which I've seen demonstrated) for that strategy to cause problems. I can make arguments that encore gives emolga the ability to gain free turns similar to the way substitute and protect give the speed boost users free turns, but frankly i'd like people to actually experiment with this stuff on their own, thats sort of the point of suspect testing. I don't actually believe anyone saying "I just don't think Ninjask and Agility are as big a problem as Combusken" have physically tested these strategies out to the same degree they've done so with Combusken. I mean I have people posting imports of teams with 2 memento users, 2 dual-screen setters, a combusken, and a xatu... People really are willing to go to such lengths to make these broken strategies work, and I guarantee you you'll be surprised how effective they can be if you actually give it a shot yourself.
 
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