Serious Gender Roles / Androgyny

[Agender Nerd]

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how privilege works. Because you are cis and male you will never have to deal with issues that cis women and trans/non-binary of all genders people face, the same is true of being white and dealing with racism, or being straight and dealing with the prejudice facing LGBTQIA+ people. That isn't to say your life will be without problems (for example your socioeconomic status has caused you many), but that on the basis of you being straight, white, cis, and male that there are many issues that you will never have to deal with.

I'd personally advocate for consent classes being mandatory for people of all genders, far too few people know what qualifies as consent or not. I know I never received sex-ed in middle or high school, only having received it during college orientation and in LGBT center youth programs.

 

[iPRODiGY VGC]

What I disagree with is the seperation they (as in the social justice community) seem to advocate for. Just because I'm not gay or trans doesn't inherently mean my opinions hold no value. I have the ability to empathize. Ideas should stand on their merits, not the characteristics of the person making the argument. As for women, I've yet to hear a convincing argument as to a way they're disadvantaged in the United States when compared to men. Identity politics, in my view, is a LOT of perpetual victimhood without any personal responsibility. I don't ever hear "What can I do to improve my situation?". Instead of dividing people up based on their percieved privilege points, we should all view eachother as humans and treat each other accordingly. All this movement does is hold a spotlight to the differences between us instead of our shared existence.

That's my opinion anyways. Although I appreciate you not jumping down my throat. Usually happens when I disagree with social justice folks.

 

[Agender Nerd]

The reason I brought up privilege before anything was not because of "privilege points" or something similarly ridiculous, but to point out that on the basis of those traits you experience the world in a fundamentally different way. You may not notice much of the systemic inequality going on around you since, ultimately, it doesn't effect you.

You brought up you seeing no compelling argument about women being disadvantaged, I can bring up rates of sexual violence and domestic abuse, reproductive rites, or the wage gap (incidentally the most cited numbers are comparing the wage of a straight white cis woman to a straight white cis man, the systemic inequality becomes much more obviously inter-sectional if you break down the data further). If you argue about the wage gap not being real on the basis of "not enough women in STEM fields" or something similar, then I suggest you look into the underlying causes of that; such as rampant workplace harassment, studies showing that if all things are equal than most employers will hire a male applicant over a female one (again this gets more inter-sectional if you break the data down further), or that every time women begin to become prominent in any given field the value of that field inexplicably drops (eg sociology, education, language arts, biology, nursing, etc.). But I'm sure you've probably heard all that already, and I'm probably not going to convince you of anything.

And then there are the LGBTQIA+ issues. Recently a friend needed to stay with me for a few months after her parents disowned her because she was trans, and she's far from the only person to be in a situation like that (and she was one of the few lucky enough to have a safe place to stay). LGBTQIA+ people make up a disproportionately large amount of the homeless population in the US, and that's not helped by the fact that many organizations (most prominently the Salvation Army) actively refuse to aid them. On a daily basis I see dozens of people using Gofundme or similar services in a desperate attempt to make rent or pay for medical care, if you're not seeing people say "What can I do to improve my situation?" then you are clearly looking in the wrong places (or not looking at all).

Then politicians decide it's more important to regulate where trans people can use the bathroom (with no mention of how that will be enforced) or try to do whatever else they can to deny LGBTQIA+ people their fundamental human rights. If marginalized people are trying to distance themselves from privileged groups, it's only because of how they've been repeatedly attacked for little else than trying to exist.

 

[cookie]

Study on how Monkeys not exposed to human culture show near-perfect gender conformity to toy selection (males attracted to moving parts of toy trucks, females like to interact with the toy dolls); has been repeated several times with similar results.

I couldn't find the full documentary, but bbc's gender documentary exploring the differences in male and female brains is really interesting.

Nature and nurture both play a role. Men and women are far more similar than different, but there are inherent differences that hold true broadly and can be significant.

I think we need a society with an accepting understanding of gender that fosters and treats individuals with flexibility--

But also is comfortable ackowledging those differences that do exist and play a role in our lives.

just saying that if people can ignore established science like global warming and vaccines, they sure as fuck can ignore anything that says that gender differences have a biological basis

 

[iPRODiGY VGC]

I respectfully disagree.

The wage gap has been debunked many times. The study often cited took the average earnings of men, and the average earnings of women, and found men, on average, make more. This is due to men occupying many more jobs in higher paying stem fields. Its not that women are graduating with these degrees and then getting forced out of their jobs due to harrasment. Its that women are opting not to get degrees in these fields in the first place. I'd very much like a source on the idea that if men and women are equal people will hire men. That is illegal, and if it happens, it should be a pretty open and shut case for a civil suite. Same goes with worplace harassment. Lawyers would jump all over that case.

Domestic abuse and sexual violence numbers are widely believed to be heavily under reported by men, so comparing the two rates is disingenuous, at least in my view. Women typically aren't physical abusers, since men are typically stronger. I was pretty badly emotionally abused by an ex girlfriend, until I decided I deserved better. Does that mean there's a systemic issue with emotionally abusive women? No. There are shitty women, just like there are shitty men. I actually recently read a study that lesbian women are most likely to be abused by their spouses. How many battered men's shelters are there? My mother was a victim of domestic abuse, and I wasn't even allowed to be with her in the shelter because of my genitals. I would say that's rather sexist, but I wouldn't say it was society's fault.

As for pay inexplicably dropping, I find that extremely hard to believe. Think about it. If women really were paid less them men, every company on the United States would be scrambling to hire female employees. The idea of the wage gap is in direct conflict with our economic system.

As for Trans people, I completely agree. I think its disgusting that politicians are trying to regulate where people are allowed to use the restroom, and I don't deny that trans people still face hate, and the people that support that view are at best ignorant.

I don't deny sexism, racism, or homophobia are real, I deny that its a systemic issue in society. These are individuals acting like assholes, and should be addressed that way. I just find this perpetual victimhood annoying. As someone who was the victim of circumstances, I was able to pull myself from far below the poverty line on my own merit, and attributing that to my skin color or sexuality is bullshit. I got here because I worked my ass off. When everyone else was out playing I was studying or going to work. In my opinion there comes a time when you need to stop blaming society and take personal responsibilty for you socioeconomic position in life. This view might just be a result of the way I've experienced my life thus far though, so make of that what you will.

Again, I respectfully disagree with you.

 

[Agender Nerd]

http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943#/spectrum
im not even gonna dignify chou's video with a response, not only did the authors of the original study famously misrepresent their data in their conclusions (i.e their data is directly contradictory to their stated conclusions), the premise of the study doesn't even make sense as gender roles are obviously species specific, or maybe you don't care about 'real differences' in your science, only in the desperate presentation of your social norms.

That video has already been addressed. Also reminding everyone that Sex and Gender are not the same thing. Sex has basis in biology (but is a lot nuanced than just external genetalia, again already been addressed). Gender and particularly Gender Roles are social constructs (IE a product of the surrounding culture) and have clear basis in the social sciences like psychology or sociology.

Also iPRODiGY VGC I have nothing more to say to you. I've already addressed your criticisms and anything else either of us might say to each other on the topic will be little more than talking in circles. Neither of us is going to change the other's mind.

 

[iPRODiGY VGC]

Fair enough. Glad we could keep it civil. Have a good night buddy.

 

[Flamedood]

I think the concern I have with these discussions is the lack of understanding as to how we got to this point in society in the first place- gender roles and social constructs weren't some "illuminati" conspiracy created by the middle class white man due to their hatred of women and non heterosexuals- these constructs evolved via human beings finding the best ways to adapt to their environment.

Monogamous, heterosexual sex makes total sense in a world prior to contraception and understanding of disease. Promiscuous sex led to pregnancies and vulnerable women who didn't have the means to support their children so society "evolved" to demand a token of commitment (marriage) to the women and her potential child for her to choose to have sex. This also benefited the man as he could ensure that he was raising and supporting his offspring and genetic footprint and not someone elses.

Even with our current understanding of disease, anal sex is much more open to venereal diseases (whether with males or females) and as the aids epidemic in the 80s proves (and currently throughout SA), even in modern times there are greater associated risks with unprotected anal sex. Again it makes sense socially speaking that in the past our society would condemn such acts, because that was what was best for the community.

Gendered toys and marketing was something the community wanted and evolved to maximise economic profit. Most of the gendered products and programs we know now developed post ww2 when firms discovered that when you target a demographic you maximise your profits and sales. You will learn this now in any marketing101 class, when you try to be everything to everyone, you appeal to no one. This can be observed in the way that products are marketed at young people vs old, the different advertising styles in Japan vs America, and, as discussed in this thread, gendered toys.

In 200 000 years of human experience and despite the agricultural revolution 10 000 years ago and the industrial revolution 200 years ago, human society has remained rather unchanged from the "hetero-normal, patriarchal" society that we know today (and this trend crosses cultural divides, seen both in the east and the West and even more exaggerated in indigenous communities.) The social changes that we've seen recently have been extremely drastic, and it would take a pretty revolutionary social movement to reverse 200 000 years of human history and development. Not to say it isn't possible, but it's pretty easy to see why people are pretty keen to remain attached to their traditional views on gender and why this community continues to face so much resistance. It's a pretty bold claim to suggest that every human being and society that has ever lived is wrong (although we used to think the world was flat, so it doesn't mean we arent).

 

[Agender Nerd]

Nonbinary Gender is as old as recorded history (eg Hijrah and Two Spirit among others), the oldest known piece of Fiction (Epic of Gilgamesh) is filled with homoerotic subtext, homosexuality is observed in literally every social species and played a very prominent part in Greek and Roman culture.

I'm not saying every society that ever lived was wrong, you're just basing assumptions on every society off of misguided information. I suggest you do some research into how various cultures outside of Europe have historically treated gender and sexuality.

Edit: looking into the treatment of intersex people may be good too.