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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)
- Thread starter Nayrz
- Start date
- Status
hyw
Banned deucer.
Mega Mawile finds a solid footing in the metagame as a niche Pokémon geared towards Trickroom teams thanks to its amazing ability, which lends it tremendous offensive presence, and excellent defensive typing; that of Klefki, which allows it to switch into, and thereby often check, an endless list of the big dogs in ORAS Ubers, resisting such relevant offensive typings as Fairy, Dark, Flying, Ice, with an immunity to Dragon.
Deoxys-N is not "trash" either, as proven by magsyy's RMT.
On the other hand, Hoopa-U has no niche what so ever, and the best team you can possibly build with it has already been built; refer to antacool's RMT. The Pokemon in question is literal and utter shit and I would much rather we once again shift our focus back to sorting out A rank and B rank.
Looking at the list as it currently is and examining the trends in A rank, I honestly feel like Arceus-Dragon is placed a bit low... My reference point is Arceus-Water and I believe Arceus-Dragon shouldn't be placed lower than one subrank beneath Arceus-Water as the two function very similarly, just with Arceus-Water having acquired the superior typing.
Like just comparing how many teams it fits on compared to the likes of Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Ghost and how well it performs its role as a defensive support-Arceus set in such an aggressive metagame leads me to believe that the bottom of A rank would provide for it a better fitting in this viability ranking...what do you guys think?
Deoxys-N is not "trash" either, as proven by magsyy's RMT.
On the other hand, Hoopa-U has no niche what so ever, and the best team you can possibly build with it has already been built; refer to antacool's RMT. The Pokemon in question is literal and utter shit and I would much rather we once again shift our focus back to sorting out A rank and B rank.
Looking at the list as it currently is and examining the trends in A rank, I honestly feel like Arceus-Dragon is placed a bit low... My reference point is Arceus-Water and I believe Arceus-Dragon shouldn't be placed lower than one subrank beneath Arceus-Water as the two function very similarly, just with Arceus-Water having acquired the superior typing.
Like just comparing how many teams it fits on compared to the likes of Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Ghost and how well it performs its role as a defensive support-Arceus set in such an aggressive metagame leads me to believe that the bottom of A rank would provide for it a better fitting in this viability ranking...what do you guys think?
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
It acts as a nice check to Primal Groudon's without Dragon Claw and can remove hazards as well. Although the Latis can also do this, but its typing helps it against certain threats more easily.
On an unrelated note, I'm curious as to why Flygon is C+. I'm not asking for it to drop or anything, I'm just wondering.
Requesting this thread get locked. Nobody posts anything meaningful anymore in favor of shitposting. There also isn't much to discuss with this list because the uber's metagame is much more established then others and most changes left are really just nitpicks. Worst comes to worst we can keep this active and discuss it somewhere else when needed.
Criteria-wise Lugia should be A+ (as this thing walls every physical attacker without teravolt), I agree. The problem comes with what Lugia fits on though. It is a kingpin on stall but it tends to make a team fearful of Darkrai when it appears on balance. With stall being the weakest playstyle, I also think it is pretty reasonable that Lugia be beneath the kingpins of balance and bulky offense (Gengar, Gira-o and Klefki (kinda) for BO along with Arceus-Water, Gengar, and Klefki for balance. Ho-Oh rules both teamstyles which is why it is S). Like I said, old criteria definitely places Lugia in A+, but its roll in the metagame places it in A. I would personally be fine with either placement, but it makes slight bit more sense to me for it to be in A. Shrug
Cynara
Banned deucer.
This is probably gonna be my only post in VR for a while
My final nomination is for Arceus Fairy to rise to Mid/High B, after recent discussion I feel this pokemon is more capable than what it's currently valued at, B would be a good place to start for Arceus-Fairy. Its a consistent Stealth rock setter that is able to get rocks up vs M-sab and M-diancie and I feel SR arceus-fairy is the most effective way to get usage out of the pokemon, allowing to expand build oppertunities for teams to provide the team support arceus-fairy requires.
Since orch had some legitimate discussion that was ignored in the sea of shitposting, I had a thought about ditto and I agree to an extent, It should remain a C rank pokemon, Provides Strong HO matchup, though because it's very dependent on support, it should probably reside in C or C+ at the most, however it's more of a bandaid on teams or leads to linear teambuilds. but I do see the matchup it can provide vs stall and is something to take into consideration.
I'm happy with the rest of the rankings representation of the metagame, beside my nominations and I dont see any notable drops/rises in the future.
Lugia to A+, it's one of the top defensive threats in the tier and its place in the viability rankings should represent this, being able to check a myriad of offensive pokemon such as Mence, E killer and Pdon which most defensive pokemon cant achieve. Making it a strong option to consider on balance/stall (being an apparent staple on stall) and has been present in some of the strongest balance teams ever built (blims sample team and Lord Outrages absolute control), it's massive bulk and ability to phaze with whirlwind leaves little setup oppertunity and can be used to prevent a sweep from the likes of a geomancy xerneas, in a pinch.
Dragonceus, I would like to see in at least A, just below Arceus-Water, Both function in a very similar way, Water has a slightly superior defensive typing, though in return Arceus-Dragon is able to pack Judgment + defog into one slot, being able to take on Mence, Rayquaza and hitting Pdon for a nice chunk which is a good boon in itself, arceus-water has to run ice beam to deal with any of these threats. both of these support arceus lead to the solid balance/BO builds, just the configuration of pokemon in each team is slightly different to account for the negatives/positives of either support arceus.
Dragonceus, I would like to see in at least A, just below Arceus-Water, Both function in a very similar way, Water has a slightly superior defensive typing, though in return Arceus-Dragon is able to pack Judgment + defog into one slot, being able to take on Mence, Rayquaza and hitting Pdon for a nice chunk which is a good boon in itself, arceus-water has to run ice beam to deal with any of these threats. both of these support arceus lead to the solid balance/BO builds, just the configuration of pokemon in each team is slightly different to account for the negatives/positives of either support arceus.
My final nomination is for Arceus Fairy to rise to Mid/High B, after recent discussion I feel this pokemon is more capable than what it's currently valued at, B would be a good place to start for Arceus-Fairy. Its a consistent Stealth rock setter that is able to get rocks up vs M-sab and M-diancie and I feel SR arceus-fairy is the most effective way to get usage out of the pokemon, allowing to expand build oppertunities for teams to provide the team support arceus-fairy requires.
Since orch had some legitimate discussion that was ignored in the sea of shitposting, I had a thought about ditto and I agree to an extent, It should remain a C rank pokemon, Provides Strong HO matchup, though because it's very dependent on support, it should probably reside in C or C+ at the most, however it's more of a bandaid on teams or leads to linear teambuilds. but I do see the matchup it can provide vs stall and is something to take into consideration.
I'm happy with the rest of the rankings representation of the metagame, beside my nominations and I dont see any notable drops/rises in the future.
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I'm gonna step in and say Arceus-Dragon and Lugia are completely fine at their current rankings.
Dragonceus's weaknesses are significant enough to keep it from moving up. Yes, it offers some cool role compression since it can check Mence, Ho-Oh, and PDon while still having room for Defog, but it's bait for some very common mons (fairies, steels). Diancie forces Dragonceus teams to run a niche steel capable of checking it, since bulky offense usually relies on their Arc-forme (sd ground / waterceus) to do so. Klefki forces a team composition that either isn't weak to hazards, has multiple mons that force Keys out, or has a Magic Bouncer in order to keep it from being a huge pain in the ass. Giving Xern free turns is obviously bad, not much to say there. It's weaknesses are also much more relevant than Waterceus's, since Dragon and Fairy are very common attacking types (especially since it's weak to PDon's D-Tail).
Lugia has similar flaws to Dragonceus, namely being bait for some particularly threatening mons (Darkrai, WoW Gar, every steel type ever aka spikes setters). It also fails to check much of anything if SR is up, meaning it needs a strong hazard removal core backing it. Due to the support it needs, Lugia only fits well on a few niche team compositions and is generally outclassed by Tina-O on most bulky offense and balance, since Tina-O actually checks SD grounds well and doesn't cede momentum.
Dragonceus's weaknesses are significant enough to keep it from moving up. Yes, it offers some cool role compression since it can check Mence, Ho-Oh, and PDon while still having room for Defog, but it's bait for some very common mons (fairies, steels). Diancie forces Dragonceus teams to run a niche steel capable of checking it, since bulky offense usually relies on their Arc-forme (sd ground / waterceus) to do so. Klefki forces a team composition that either isn't weak to hazards, has multiple mons that force Keys out, or has a Magic Bouncer in order to keep it from being a huge pain in the ass. Giving Xern free turns is obviously bad, not much to say there. It's weaknesses are also much more relevant than Waterceus's, since Dragon and Fairy are very common attacking types (especially since it's weak to PDon's D-Tail).
Lugia has similar flaws to Dragonceus, namely being bait for some particularly threatening mons (Darkrai, WoW Gar, every steel type ever aka spikes setters). It also fails to check much of anything if SR is up, meaning it needs a strong hazard removal core backing it. Due to the support it needs, Lugia only fits well on a few niche team compositions and is generally outclassed by Tina-O on most bulky offense and balance, since Tina-O actually checks SD grounds well and doesn't cede momentum.
Cynara
Banned deucer.
Yeah okay, I forgot to take this strongly into consideration when making my post and the superiority of Tina-O, you've convinced me the Cons out weigh the negatives of my nomination, Im a bit bias towards them aswell since they are commonly present on my builds. Im gonna retract my support on Lugia/dragonceus, though I would still like to keep my Arc-fairy nomination in place.
Yveltal might rise again, even at the top of A
Defensive charti set can """"lure"""" and deal with any sd ceus, a better way than phazing them with lugia or tina-o, and stands as the only real counter to sd ghostceus, (which can't be stopped by the other two mons and is kinda underrated, as well as its support set), while also dealing with mmence (100% of the time with sr support), and dd pdon, ubers king himself. (plus yveltal's sucker punch is the strongest priority in the game and do a hell to anything even with a defensive spread)
On the other way, LO yvel is the only unboosted mon able to 2hko the entire metagame (bar fairyceus ;;), even keys if heat wave is run (u-turn is a shitty move on it), he can't really be stopped by gar bc sucker (50/50 at least), has great natural bulk and oblivion wing to keep him safe. And dark pulse has a fkin60% 20% flinch.
I can't really understand why he's still below tina-o. That thing really lacks power and/or a recovery move and quite suffers from 4mss to stand at this rank I think.
Defensive charti set can """"lure"""" and deal with any sd ceus, a better way than phazing them with lugia or tina-o, and stands as the only real counter to sd ghostceus, (which can't be stopped by the other two mons and is kinda underrated, as well as its support set), while also dealing with mmence (100% of the time with sr support), and dd pdon, ubers king himself. (plus yveltal's sucker punch is the strongest priority in the game and do a hell to anything even with a defensive spread)
On the other way, LO yvel is the only unboosted mon able to 2hko the entire metagame (bar fairyceus ;;), even keys if heat wave is run (u-turn is a shitty move on it), he can't really be stopped by gar bc sucker (50/50 at least), has great natural bulk and oblivion wing to keep him safe. And dark pulse has a fkin
I can't really understand why he's still below tina-o. That thing really lacks power and/or a recovery move and quite suffers from 4mss to stand at this rank I think.
I am very strongly against a rise of Yveltal based on its defensive prowess, it is too passive and invites in too many special attackers and defoggers, while being completely spikes bait for Klefki. Offensive Yveltal's Sucker Punch might be the strongest priority in the game, but from defensive Yveltal it isn't even close, with Ekiller and BandRay outdamaging it quite easily. As for dealing with mega Mence, it gets 2hkod by Double Edge and will drop to a +1 Double Edge after Stealth Rock, so if you're Charti you cant even switch in, and if your leftovers it takes a whopping 6% to put yveltal in range of Mence after rocks. So in exchange for not really dealing with Physical setup mons (everything other than Ghostceus has a way to 2hko it by just attacking rather than setting up), you make up for that by being complete setup bait for Xerneas, as well as offering a bunch of Special Arceus Formes free switches on forced Foul Plays like Iceceus and Rockceus which can then proceed to take advantage of a pretty much free turn by doing whatever they want.
Life Orb Yvel is a better mon for sure but saying its the only one which 2hkos everything is just... wrong. Life Orb Mewtwo, Deoxys-Attack, hell even really shit things like Kyurem-W can 2hko the entire metagame. Yveltal definitely has more going for it than Kyurem thats for sure but if I'm picking something to just 2hko everything I'd probably chose one of the first two cause they're better vs offense (assuming that they can fit, which is the hard part).
Tina-O has a couple good sets and has options, not 4mss. Yeah you want more moves than you've got available to you, but every mon has this so all mons would have 4mss in that case. 4mss would imply it literally cannot do its job with only the 4 moveslots it has, such as Giratina-A wanting all of Rest, Sleep Talk, Roar, Wisp, Toxic and Defog cause otherwise it misses out on something very important.
E: At the same time I think Gira-O is too high in A+, I wouldn't put it above half of A, let alone above Klefki as well as them.
Life Orb Yvel is a better mon for sure but saying its the only one which 2hkos everything is just... wrong. Life Orb Mewtwo, Deoxys-Attack, hell even really shit things like Kyurem-W can 2hko the entire metagame. Yveltal definitely has more going for it than Kyurem thats for sure but if I'm picking something to just 2hko everything I'd probably chose one of the first two cause they're better vs offense (assuming that they can fit, which is the hard part).
Tina-O has a couple good sets and has options, not 4mss. Yeah you want more moves than you've got available to you, but every mon has this so all mons would have 4mss in that case. 4mss would imply it literally cannot do its job with only the 4 moveslots it has, such as Giratina-A wanting all of Rest, Sleep Talk, Roar, Wisp, Toxic and Defog cause otherwise it misses out on something very important.
E: At the same time I think Gira-O is too high in A+, I wouldn't put it above half of A, let alone above Klefki as well as them.
I think Yveltal is fine where it is, it does a decent job checking physical attackers but you're hindered by a weakness to SR (most common move in the game!) and because of this you need to roost almost continuously, which invites in a bunch of stuff for free that are huge current metagame threats like Diancie. If anything would suffer from 4mss it would be this imo, the defensive set needs to run Taunt to shut down bulkier teams but by doing so you lose the ability to hit Lugia/bulky arceus with Toxic. Alternatively running Toxic over Sucker Punch misses out on valuable priority. lo sets more or less need to run dual STAB, without Knock Off chansey walls you and w/out focus blast ttar does the same. At the same time however the priority is needed for lati twins and weakened xern/mence, which seems like a waste of valuable lo hits esp given the aforementioned rocks weakness.
Totally agree with Gira-O dropping, it's a decent physical wall and status spreader but it's doesn't technically check much of what it generally switches into, special pdon variants and even ekiller can beat it 1v1. It's suspectible to Dragon Tail as well which is becoming more common, and switching into rocks + an potential Lava Plume burn or Dragon Tail means common rockers can actually beat it 1v1 some of the time.
Totally agree with Gira-O dropping, it's a decent physical wall and status spreader but it's doesn't technically check much of what it generally switches into, special pdon variants and even ekiller can beat it 1v1. It's suspectible to Dragon Tail as well which is becoming more common, and switching into rocks + an potential Lava Plume burn or Dragon Tail means common rockers can actually beat it 1v1 some of the time.
Deo-a can become kinda bad vs any offense bc one drop from psycho can put u in a really bad situation.
On the other way sucker helps yvel a lot vs offense, he has a better bulk as them (but yh mixed spread give him a drop from spdef)
And even on more balanced builds, yvel is more flexible and deo-a can be pursuit trapped, as well as mewtwo.
Maybe top A is a little bit much for yvel however.
On the other way sucker helps yvel a lot vs offense, he has a better bulk as them (but yh mixed spread give him a drop from spdef)
And even on more balanced builds, yvel is more flexible and deo-a can be pursuit trapped, as well as mewtwo.
Maybe top A is a little bit much for yvel however.
After reading some concerns posted here and talking it over with Nayrz, I have decided to temporarily lock this thread. At this point, we're either splitting hairs over largely irrelevant Pokemon or enduring subpar arguments from clearly newer posters. This metagame has been stable for a while now and I suspect Chansey being freed from Azkaban is the last significant change that would be brought up here for quite some time.
Expect this thread to be unlocked in a couple of months, when hopefully people will come up with some fresh and well-argued nominations after some super intense Spring Seasonal matches.
Expect this thread to be unlocked in a couple of months, when hopefully people will come up with some fresh and well-argued nominations after some super intense Spring Seasonal matches.
lugia down B+: only viable on exactly one archetype which isnt great in itself. not to mention that most pdon sets beats lugia now anyways. rise of dialga is terrible for lugia too. Place under Excadrill.
arceus-ground up A+: Ggroundceus. cm and support sets being "rediscovered" makes this mon hella viable. Place above Giratina-o.
deoxys-a up A+: with the decline of scarfmons and pretty much any mons that can tank a psycho boost, deo-a finds itself as most dominant rk'er in meta. Place above Klefki.
dialga up A+: dominant pokemon on balance/bulky offense teams for a good reason- powerful mence check and anti-bounce sr user. Place above Latios.
arceus-water down A: no particular reason other than i find this pokemon extremely overrated. Place above Diancie.
ho-oh down A+: ^ Place above Klefki and below Groundceus' new placement.
arceus-ground up A+: Ggroundceus. cm and support sets being "rediscovered" makes this mon hella viable. Place above Giratina-o.
deoxys-a up A+: with the decline of scarfmons and pretty much any mons that can tank a psycho boost, deo-a finds itself as most dominant rk'er in meta. Place above Klefki.
dialga up A+: dominant pokemon on balance/bulky offense teams for a good reason- powerful mence check and anti-bounce sr user. Place above Latios.
arceus-water down A: no particular reason other than i find this pokemon extremely overrated. Place above Diancie.
ho-oh down A+: ^ Place above Klefki and below Groundceus' new placement.
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Disagree about Ho-Oh since it fits the best playstyles which are Balance and BO. Dialga at A+ might be a bit too much. Agree with the rest.
Ho-Oh should definitely not be S. Seriously, look at the other 4 Pokemon in S. They're all very threatening on their own and don't require a lot of specific support. Ho-Oh needs almost a half a team on its back in order to function fully. That nasty 4x weakness to Stealth Rock cripples Regenerator. Most teams are also very prepared to deal with it, with Stone Edge users becoming more common, and most Primal Groudon sets pack it anyways. Ho-Oh is definitely on the same level as Mega Gengar IMO.
Tentacruel also needs to drop to C or C-. It's really only good for spinning. It's blown to smithereens by a large majority of the tier, most notably Primal Groudon. What, it has a type advantage against Xerneas or something? Xerneas always packs Thunder these days. I'd much rather use Giratina-O or a bulky Arceus form rather than this pile of garbage. (Giratina-O has more offensive properties and a lot of bulky Arceus forms don't get worn down as easily, and all have far better bulk)
And, Ditto in C-? I'm sorry, but Ditto in C-?
It should be C/C+/B-. Actually decent checks to Xerneas, Mega Salamence and EK Arceus all in one don't come along every day. And Ditto is all of that. There really isn't any way to get rid of Ditto before the offensive stuff sets up as Ditto will pretty much always be able to get in checking position, it can do its job repeatably, and it even can be difficult for the other Pokemon on the opponent's team to deal with or switch into due to the immense power the Pokemon it copies tend to carry and since it checks so many things it can be difficult to fully prepare for. Ditto is only especially good against offense but offense is already so freakishly common and Ditto deals with it so well.
Edit: Another nomination, Mega Blaziken to B-
I've noticed an increase of usage in this Mega lately, and I myself have also been using it lately with little to no problems. Mega Blaziken is a very potent sweeper. After 2 boosts it can be really hard to stop, this thing is honestly better than regular Blaziken because the extra power makes it a lot less dependent on Swords Dance and there aren't even that many Mega Evolutions in Uber anyway. Primal Groudon does exist but outside of that, but outside of that it has ways of getting past its counters. I personally prefer Stone Edge over Swords Dance because it hits Yveltal, Rayquaza, Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence, and it already has a high Attack stat anyways. And Giratina-O is easy to wear down. I can't stand it sharing a rank with Mega Scizor and Cresselia, please raise it.
Tentacruel also needs to drop to C or C-. It's really only good for spinning. It's blown to smithereens by a large majority of the tier, most notably Primal Groudon. What, it has a type advantage against Xerneas or something? Xerneas always packs Thunder these days. I'd much rather use Giratina-O or a bulky Arceus form rather than this pile of garbage. (Giratina-O has more offensive properties and a lot of bulky Arceus forms don't get worn down as easily, and all have far better bulk)
And, Ditto in C-? I'm sorry, but Ditto in C-?
It should be C/C+/B-. Actually decent checks to Xerneas, Mega Salamence and EK Arceus all in one don't come along every day. And Ditto is all of that. There really isn't any way to get rid of Ditto before the offensive stuff sets up as Ditto will pretty much always be able to get in checking position, it can do its job repeatably, and it even can be difficult for the other Pokemon on the opponent's team to deal with or switch into due to the immense power the Pokemon it copies tend to carry and since it checks so many things it can be difficult to fully prepare for. Ditto is only especially good against offense but offense is already so freakishly common and Ditto deals with it so well.
Edit: Another nomination, Mega Blaziken to B-
I've noticed an increase of usage in this Mega lately, and I myself have also been using it lately with little to no problems. Mega Blaziken is a very potent sweeper. After 2 boosts it can be really hard to stop, this thing is honestly better than regular Blaziken because the extra power makes it a lot less dependent on Swords Dance and there aren't even that many Mega Evolutions in Uber anyway. Primal Groudon does exist but outside of that, but outside of that it has ways of getting past its counters. I personally prefer Stone Edge over Swords Dance because it hits Yveltal, Rayquaza, Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence, and it already has a high Attack stat anyways. And Giratina-O is easy to wear down. I can't stand it sharing a rank with Mega Scizor and Cresselia, please raise it.
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Proposed Changes:
Arc-water to A: Over-rated, extremely common set but every team has several ways to beat it including steels, status is becoming more common and its just not as good at doing its job as it once was. I'd feel it would be good above Groundceus below deo-s.
Gira-O to A/A-: Basically what sweep said, its not that great at defogging cause of no recovery and its other sets aren't good enough to put it alongside Mega Gengar and Klefki. If A, bottom of A, if A- top of A-.
Lugia to A: Stall is just getting worse and worse and that means the same for Lugia. Almost every team has a steel type that can come in for free on it, there are a number of sets going around on pokemon lugia is intended to beat that it cant now (jolly sd pdon, jolly ray, ext) and Mega Gengar is arguably better than before with the rise in popularity of hex-spam teams, which Lugia really hates. Ideally below mega Diancie, above Gira-O.
Mega Sab to A-: This was probably a bit high in the first place, it stops some rocks but the metagame is really prepared for it right now and it cannot prevent rocks most of the time. Also because of the rocks situation, it can be easy to wear down, especially with things like Dazzling Gleam klefki becoming more popular to wear it down even more.I'd put it below Ray above Dragonceus.
Arc-ghost to A+: Ghostceus has seen a rise in popularity of the kind of teams it can decimate at +2 and is just generally more capable than an A ranking suggests. Also great to have an offensive check to Ekiller, Latios, Mewtwo and Kangaskhan. I'd have it above Klekfi but below Gengar, essentially taking Gira-O's place.
Deo-a to A/A+: Nuke. In a meta where scarfers are uncommon and priority users are obvious, this thing is an absolute train, especially with the rash sets that are more popular now. To paraphrase someone in the ubers skype, if the matchup is offense vs offense, and one of the teams has a deo-a, that team should win. If A, above Latios, if A+ below Klefki.
Dialga up to A-: A really good stealth rock setter that frees up the primal groudon slot, provides defensive synergy and can get rocks up from both bouncers, while beating almost every defog user in a one on one setting? A- at least. I'd have it between Yveltal and Dragceus.
mewtwo-y up to B+: This thing is really underrated right now, and with Mewtwo in A-, I feel this should rise to B+. Its not that much worse than its life orb form, and given the rise of rash deo-a, can actually turn the offense vs offense matchup in the favour of the mewtwo team. I feel this should go to between lando-t and skarmory personally, but I could see it slotting between Skarm and Skymin as well.
Blissey down to B-: Just like Lugia, this thing is worse now than it was a few months ago, stall in general is just really not great at the moment. As for specifically why it should drop, the defensive geoxerns with rest and block and stuff are more popular now than when the thread was closed and it turns blissey from a check into setup fodder. I actually feel B- in general should be re-ordered (along with B for that matter) and in that hypothetical I'd have it so it went Iceceus, Cloyster, Mega TTar, Blissey, Scolipede, Darkceus Greninja Blaziken Fairyceus. But in the order given, above Arceus-Dark I suppose.
Slowbro to C+: Slowbro's no worse than it was a few months ago, I just feel it was perhaps given too much credit. Dont care much on this one but it definitely looks more at home in C+ to me. Probably between Alomomola and Cresselia,
Tenta to become unlisted: The entire reason for this thread being unlocked was a discussion sparked by the latest ubers article when I saw tentacruel mentioned and thought it'd been pulled out of the writers ass. Turns out its actually ranked here and has an analysis... for some reason. Tentacruel is just not good enough at what it does to have a ranking, while it might be able to in theory, it has seen 0 tour use afaik, and on top of that gives threats like pdon and ray and ekiller and groundceus free setup 70% of the time. Also if you're using it as a spinner, it will get worn down really easily, to where it can no longer reliably set tspikes nor spin nor check things like Geoxern.
also Q.... yeah fuck it i'm not typing out that full name, you're massively over-rating Ditto. C- is being generous to it given how useless it can be in matchups outside of standard HO, and even in that matchup its more than possible to make ditto not as useful as you seem to think it is.
Arc-water to A: Over-rated, extremely common set but every team has several ways to beat it including steels, status is becoming more common and its just not as good at doing its job as it once was. I'd feel it would be good above Groundceus below deo-s.
Gira-O to A/A-: Basically what sweep said, its not that great at defogging cause of no recovery and its other sets aren't good enough to put it alongside Mega Gengar and Klefki. If A, bottom of A, if A- top of A-.
Lugia to A: Stall is just getting worse and worse and that means the same for Lugia. Almost every team has a steel type that can come in for free on it, there are a number of sets going around on pokemon lugia is intended to beat that it cant now (jolly sd pdon, jolly ray, ext) and Mega Gengar is arguably better than before with the rise in popularity of hex-spam teams, which Lugia really hates. Ideally below mega Diancie, above Gira-O.
Mega Sab to A-: This was probably a bit high in the first place, it stops some rocks but the metagame is really prepared for it right now and it cannot prevent rocks most of the time. Also because of the rocks situation, it can be easy to wear down, especially with things like Dazzling Gleam klefki becoming more popular to wear it down even more.I'd put it below Ray above Dragonceus.
Arc-ghost to A+: Ghostceus has seen a rise in popularity of the kind of teams it can decimate at +2 and is just generally more capable than an A ranking suggests. Also great to have an offensive check to Ekiller, Latios, Mewtwo and Kangaskhan. I'd have it above Klekfi but below Gengar, essentially taking Gira-O's place.
Deo-a to A/A+: Nuke. In a meta where scarfers are uncommon and priority users are obvious, this thing is an absolute train, especially with the rash sets that are more popular now. To paraphrase someone in the ubers skype, if the matchup is offense vs offense, and one of the teams has a deo-a, that team should win. If A, above Latios, if A+ below Klefki.
Dialga up to A-: A really good stealth rock setter that frees up the primal groudon slot, provides defensive synergy and can get rocks up from both bouncers, while beating almost every defog user in a one on one setting? A- at least. I'd have it between Yveltal and Dragceus.
mewtwo-y up to B+: This thing is really underrated right now, and with Mewtwo in A-, I feel this should rise to B+. Its not that much worse than its life orb form, and given the rise of rash deo-a, can actually turn the offense vs offense matchup in the favour of the mewtwo team. I feel this should go to between lando-t and skarmory personally, but I could see it slotting between Skarm and Skymin as well.
Blissey down to B-: Just like Lugia, this thing is worse now than it was a few months ago, stall in general is just really not great at the moment. As for specifically why it should drop, the defensive geoxerns with rest and block and stuff are more popular now than when the thread was closed and it turns blissey from a check into setup fodder. I actually feel B- in general should be re-ordered (along with B for that matter) and in that hypothetical I'd have it so it went Iceceus, Cloyster, Mega TTar, Blissey, Scolipede, Darkceus Greninja Blaziken Fairyceus. But in the order given, above Arceus-Dark I suppose.
Slowbro to C+: Slowbro's no worse than it was a few months ago, I just feel it was perhaps given too much credit. Dont care much on this one but it definitely looks more at home in C+ to me. Probably between Alomomola and Cresselia,
Tenta to become unlisted: The entire reason for this thread being unlocked was a discussion sparked by the latest ubers article when I saw tentacruel mentioned and thought it'd been pulled out of the writers ass. Turns out its actually ranked here and has an analysis... for some reason. Tentacruel is just not good enough at what it does to have a ranking, while it might be able to in theory, it has seen 0 tour use afaik, and on top of that gives threats like pdon and ray and ekiller and groundceus free setup 70% of the time. Also if you're using it as a spinner, it will get worn down really easily, to where it can no longer reliably set tspikes nor spin nor check things like Geoxern.
also Q.... yeah fuck it i'm not typing out that full name, you're massively over-rating Ditto. C- is being generous to it given how useless it can be in matchups outside of standard HO, and even in that matchup its more than possible to make ditto not as useful as you seem to think it is.
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I'm not even that bothered by the Ditto nom compared to the Mega Blaze nom lol... I don't even know where to start if you think that you've been using it with little problems cos I and every other user who has posted about this previously would pretty much always prefer to use Mence thanks to the fact it uh, actually provides some defensive synergy to the squad it's used on as well as providing sweeping potential. If you're tryna use Blaze Life Orb is the way to go although I think this is also bad and haven't really seen anyone use it convincingly or otherwise.
e: while I don't agree with Ditto rise a point that always gets passed over until someone eventually brings it up is that its not actually deadweight vs stall or bulkier squads as these mons always tend to pack something that is useful to copy(think how useful copying a cleric vs stall can potentially be from time to time.) It's not amazing in these matchups but it hardly creates a 5v6.
e: while I don't agree with Ditto rise a point that always gets passed over until someone eventually brings it up is that its not actually deadweight vs stall or bulkier squads as these mons always tend to pack something that is useful to copy(think how useful copying a cleric vs stall can potentially be from time to time.) It's not amazing in these matchups but it hardly creates a 5v6.
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Bronzong B -> B+
B is really underselling this thing tbh. It's better than mons like ferro and rachi. Its a solid xern check, does a great job spreading status, soft checks like 80% of the metagame, and gets rocks up on mbounce users most of the time. It just provides really solid role compression overall and while to does get worn down and is susceptible to mgengar I really don't think that's enough to keep it in B considering the sheer amount of utility it brings to the table.
Edit: Hmm idk maybe this could go below Excadrill? I'm by no means adamant about that placement so if anyone else has a different recommendation I'd be glad to hear it.
B is really underselling this thing tbh. It's better than mons like ferro and rachi. Its a solid xern check, does a great job spreading status, soft checks like 80% of the metagame, and gets rocks up on mbounce users most of the time. It just provides really solid role compression overall and while to does get worn down and is susceptible to mgengar I really don't think that's enough to keep it in B considering the sheer amount of utility it brings to the table.
Edit: Hmm idk maybe this could go below Excadrill? I'm by no means adamant about that placement so if anyone else has a different recommendation I'd be glad to hear it.
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ditto autowins vs stall as i explained in previous post about ditto. ditto should be C+ just for autowining vs stall and sample ho. it's not like C is a high bar for any pokemon to reach lol. I think ditto deserves to be below Goth.
im ok with A for dialga, but i think that A- is underselling it. See previous post.
I find that the biggest problem with ho-oh teams is that its incredibly easy to get sr up and keep it up with new techs nowadays. I'm not saying that ho-oh is bad just because of sr weakness, but is it a super good pokemon that everyone should fear like other s ranked pokemon? I don't think so personally. Ho-oh always have been a borderline case for me, even when the trends heavily favored ho-oh. ho-oh is incredibly shaky/shit vs offense, shit vs bulky offense, neutral/good vs balance, good vs stall OVERALL (this is pretty much just anecdotal experience). I think that S ranked mons should be very least neutral vs all main archetypes and ho-oh clearly isn't IMO. i can go into nitty gritty details if theres more debate about ho-oh.
e:
gengar up to S :) Above Salamence.
im ok with A for dialga, but i think that A- is underselling it. See previous post.
I find that the biggest problem with ho-oh teams is that its incredibly easy to get sr up and keep it up with new techs nowadays. I'm not saying that ho-oh is bad just because of sr weakness, but is it a super good pokemon that everyone should fear like other s ranked pokemon? I don't think so personally. Ho-oh always have been a borderline case for me, even when the trends heavily favored ho-oh. ho-oh is incredibly shaky/shit vs offense, shit vs bulky offense, neutral/good vs balance, good vs stall OVERALL (this is pretty much just anecdotal experience). I think that S ranked mons should be very least neutral vs all main archetypes and ho-oh clearly isn't IMO. i can go into nitty gritty details if theres more debate about ho-oh.
e:
gengar up to S :) Above Salamence.
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