Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[LimaBean]

Crawdaunt has been doing good lately but i think that b+ is too generous b is just good enough,after all this pokemon is easily revenge killed and worn down by hazards so it has a lot thats holding it back and i really dont feel its on the level of latias kyurem black ect and like you said the speed isnt it helping it either,im all for a crawdaunt raise but its ok were it is and b is good enough for it

He is nominating it for B! Not B+! Where did you get B+ from?

 

[kek123]

mega Charizard y -A to A

I think the zard y is very much worth of rising to A since it has next to none switch in the current meta game like the most popular spdef wall in the current meta are clefable , heatran , Torn-t , spdef rachi . I mean it does have some switch ins like spdef talon flame and lati's but most of the time your going to be running this thing with t-tar any way so it like how much do they really matter . Yea sure rock are a pain but it really no that hard to run latios with zard y although it is a massive down side to zard y . Also id like to say id rate this thing much higher than things like mega heracross witch is wall by lando-t and clef if its max defence clef .Zard y crushes most balance and does pretty well versus most blulky offence teams and also does really well versus stall when pair with something to deal with chansey or knock of it evolvite.

I really thing it a a better standard than the pokemon at A- rank and better than a few of the pokemon at the rank of A I mean if your running balance versus this with out latios it pretty much an instant lose if they play well and even latios most zard y team run t-tar with them. Also zard y fairy pretty well versus what id say it the best mega , mega scizor is also another benefit to zard y.

Over all I feel the balanced meta favours zard y right now and its partner like t-tar and latios which is think is a good reason to make it A rank.

 

[Zimzy]

Tangrowth: B+ --> A-

With Amoonguss possibly rising, I believe Tangrowth should also rise with it, as I feel having a sub rank different between the two would not represent their viability. As of late, Tangrowth has really impacted the meta, as meta game trends have made it better. For example, Tangrowth can easily perform well and against sand teams, which have risen in popularity in the last few months. On Sand, Tangrowth provides a great defensive backbone, as it provides the team with a good defensive pivot, with checks to Landorus-T, Keldeo, and Azumarill to name a few. Against Sand, it acts as an amazing check to one of the most common Pokemon on sand, Excadrill. Adamant LO Exca simply cannot break through physically defensive Tangrowth. It loses 1v1, as it guts nuked by Leaf Storm. Band Tar is the only thing that can break through Tang in some situations, but it hates taking any hit back. By using Tangrowth, it usually makes sand teams lose momentum by wasting one turn or more of and to stop Tangrowth.

Tangrowth is also great on and against Bulky Offensive teams, as its teammates usually appreciate the great utility it provides, with Knock Off and Sleep Powder to name a few. Another thing worth mentioning is that it works as an amazing defensive pivot, as its able to switch in on a lot of physical attackers, such as Mega Lopunny, Azumarill, Breloom, and Landorus-T. Its capability to break apart Bulky Offensive cores is also worth mentioning, as it can beat things such as Rotom-W, Heatran (with Earthquake), Slowbro, Azumarill, and Ferrothorn to name a few.

Tangrowth is often compared to Amoonguss. And Amoonguss does have access to Clear Smog, being a much better Specially Defensive Wall, and a much more reliable form of putting things to sleep in Spore. However, Amoonguss is extremely passive, while Tangrowth has an offensive presence in the form of Leaf Storm, EQ, Knock Off, Rock Slide, and many other coverage moves. It also has the ability to run mixed, fully physical, and special sets. Additional resistances over Amoonguss. Especially having a ground resist, making it a much better sand check and a much more reliable check to Landorus-T and Excadrill.

Considering these notable advantages that Tangrowth has over Amoonguss, I feel it's much more fair to have them in the same rank and even up in A-. In A- we see Pokemon like Starmie and Bisharp. Starmie is the only spinner on HO and Bisharp has the ability to sweep and break teams on half, which makes them notable mons to prep for. However, in B+ we see things like Gengar, which is a great special wallbreaker, but suffers from being walled by some things and also losing to many sand teams. Now, Amoonguss and Tangrowth don't have anything in common with these mons, but rather looking on a grand spectrum, Tangrowth and Amoonguss are certainly on a meta defining level as Bisharp and Starmie. They are premier partners for sand teams, and both have the ability to perform functions as one of the best bulky grass types in the tier. I find myself prepping for these more and more so I can break through sand teams easier. Tangrowth can check mons like Mega Lopunny and Serperior. Checks to these on sand are invaluable, and with how well they fit into these cores, a rise is justifiable.

 

[Gary]

Can Diggersby drop? Even with Huge Power it doesn't have the best Attack stat, and it has pretty bad Speed and that's an attribute that a physical sweeper shouldn't have. I get that it has Quick Attack but it hits so damn weak. Not to mention that Weavile is everywhere. Speaking of Weavile, I'd much rather use that as a physical sweeper which has significantly better offensive stats and has almost everything that Diggersby has.

Also Tangrowth has been seeing more usage lately

Yes I know that it gets Swords Dance but Azumarill gets Belly Drum

I don't even like SD Diggersby in this meta tbh, I think Band is its best option, as it is able to hit hard as fuck right off the bat and practically nothing can switch into Return or EQ reliably; fat Lando-T is 2HKOed and other stuff like Ferro, Tangrowth, Hippo, and Slowbro after SR. Also U-turn is bad on CB, I'd use EQ/Return/Quick Attack/Fire Punch, because it Fire Punch you can 2HKO Skarm on switch and with Quick Attack it can clean up or pick off weakened Pokes. U-turn is good on Pokemon that normally have common switch-ins, but with something like Diggersby that doesn't really have any, U-turn is pretty worthless. Knock Off is an option too I guess, but I just really like the ability to 2HKO Skarm all the time, as well as OHKOing Ferrothorn.

SD is still good if you can find opportunities for it to set up, but atm it doesn't find too many opportunities even vs fat shit because they will usually have something to hit it with, and with CB Diggersby is much more immediately threatening.

 

[Glue]

Hello guys I'm gonna make a very controversial nomination but before you read my nomination I don't really post on the viability threads and I made only one post for the latest ou viability thread and that is it but I do enjoy reading what people think that which pokemon should drop and what should rise and I also would like to help contribute to the ou community but don't want to be discourage by like 20+ comments saying you're shit mate you know nothing about the pokemon ou metagame and your nomination is shit because I seen what this thread can do and end of the day it's mainly the ranking team choice of this pokemon x should either rise or drop rank and of course we're all humans.

Latios A+ -> A

Before I start I would like to say I think latios is a very good pokemon and A rank is still considered very good rank to be in the current metagame and honestly even I use latios alot however I think it more of the same level as pokemon such as weavile, mega lopunny and mega sableye and not really A+ material such as landorus-t and heatran which are considered very metagame defining, splashable and threatening now I agree with latios being splashable I mean you can slap it on so many offensive type teams and it usually does the job well but I'm not sure if its extremely meta defining or very threating and here is why.

Pursuit Trap and Its Effects On Latios

Firstly in the current metagame, Pursuit Trap is becoming very common especially with the rise of Tyranitar and Choice Band Weavile in usage sure you can surf tyranitar and weavile can only check it but at the same time you have to guess which tyranitar set you're fighting choice band, scarf or even the bulky t-tar set and weavile just needs latios to get damaged by rocks and just use one damaging move then you can trap latios and kill it with a pursuit, you start to see more mega metagross and regular form running pursuit which it switches into latios with ease and bisharp is still a thing in the current metagame which for latios hurts and alot of latios sets still likes to carry defog especially so if you defog, pursuit trapper comes in, he attacks your latios and most likely you have a dead latios unless you make the correct play which can be tricky to pull off since lati is a pursuit weak pokemon.

Pokemon That Walls It And Are Common In Current Metagame

Secondly it is really not that difficult to wall latios and its walls are becoming much more popular, I'm starting to see more jirachis on offensive like teams, mega scizor and ferrothorn are still common still yes they get bodied by hp fire but then you lose the option to outspeed opposing lati twins and 110 based speed pokeon and hp fire is not that common anymore, klefki can wall it, chansey on stall eats up latios's moves, clefable is a huge pain in the ass for latios all these mons maybe expect maybe klefki are all common mons in the current metagame which is very annoying for latios.

The Rest and In Conclusion

Finally these are more of minor downsides for but still annoying like it can get revenged killed by pokemon such as choice scarf lando-t and thundurus-i both mons very common especially lando, also once latios used draco meteor you can easily either set up on it or take another move from latios and just kill it but again I can see why it is A+ since latios does what it does, not many pokemon wants to switch in draco, reliable awnser to keldeo and can be very unpredictable since it does have a nice range of moves and can pull of a surpise punch with a choice scarf but imo if A+ is considered that pokemon are in the rank should be extremely meta defining, splashable and threatening while in A rank very solid but not quite as good, latios just fits the description better than A+ and honestly the only thing it fits under is Splashable, extremely meta defining not really and threatening yes but not by alot and that is my opinion and view on what rank latios should be

 

[Spoons of Justice]

Hello guys I'm gonna make a very controversial nomination but before you read my nomination I don't really post on the viability threads and I made only one post for the latest ou viability thread and that is it but I do enjoy reading what people think that which pokemon should drop and what should rise and I also would like to help contribute to the ou community but don't want to be discourage by like 20+ comments saying you're shit mate you know nothing about the pokemon ou metagame and your nomination is shit because I seen what this thread can do and end of the day it's mainly the ranking team choice of this pokemon x should either rise or drop rank and of course we're all humans.

Latios A+ -> A

Before I start I would like to say I think latios is a very good pokemon and A rank is still considered very good rank to be in the current metagame and honestly even I use latios alot however I think it more of the same level as pokemon such as weavile, mega lopunny and mega sableye and not really A+ material such as landorus-t and heatran which are considered very metagame defining, splashable and threatening now I agree with latios being splashable I mean you can slap it on so many offensive type teams and it usually does the job well but I'm not sure if its extremely meta defining or very threating and here is why.

Pursuit Trap and Its Effects On Latios

Firstly in the current metagame, Pursuit Trap is becoming very common especially with the rise of Tyranitar and Choice Band Weavile in usage sure you can surf tyranitar and weavile can only check it but at the same time you have to guess which tyranitar set you're fighting choice band, scarf or even the bulky t-tar set and weavile just needs latios to get damaged by rocks and just use one damaging move then you can trap latios and kill it with a pursuit, you start to see more mega metagross and regular form running pursuit which it switches into latios with ease and bisharp is still a thing in the current metagame which for latios hurts and alot of latios sets still likes to carry defog especially so if you defog, pursuit trapper comes in, he attacks your latios and most likely you have a dead latios unless you make the correct play which can be tricky to pull off since lati is a pursuit weak pokemon.

Pokemon That Walls It And Are Common In Current Metagame

Secondly it is really not that difficult to wall latios and its walls are becoming much more popular, I'm starting to see more jirachis on offensive like teams, mega scizor and ferrothorn are still common still yes they get bodied by hp fire but then you lose the option to outspeed opposing lati twins and 110 based speed pokeon and hp fire is not that common anymore, klefki can wall it, chansey on stall eats up latios's moves, clefable is a huge pain in the ass for latios all these mons maybe expect maybe klefki are all common mons in the current metagame which is very annoying for latios.

The Rest and In Conclusion

Finally these are more of minor downsides for but still annoying like it can get revenged killed by pokemon such as choice scarf lando-t and thundurus-i both mons very common especially lando, also once latios used draco meteor you can easily either set up on it or take another move from latios and just kill it but again I can see why it is A+ since latios does what it does, not many pokemon wants to switch in draco, reliable awnser to keldeo and can be very unpredictable since it does have a nice range of moves and can pull of a surpise punch with a choice scarf but imo if A+ is considered that pokemon are in the rank should be extremely meta defining, splashable and threatening while in A rank very solid but not quite as good, latios just fits the description better than A+ and honestly the only thing it fits under is Splashable, extremely meta defining not really and threatening yes but not by alot and that is my opinion and view on what rank latios should be

I'ma fight for Latios to stay in A+ because he's my favorite mon I do think that he has a place in A+. IDK, maybe I'm biased.

Now, from what I understand about your post, you're opting for him to drop because:

• Jirachi (and fat steels in general), and servants of the Stall are all over the place
  
• Pursuit trapping is all over the place
  
• He doesn't define the meta
• Draco Meteor renders him setup bait
• Easily revenge killed

Now, just to be generous, I will add in some negative points to give you a hand.

• 110 Speed is decent enough, but stuff like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Manectric, Thundurus, and Mega Sceptile will really bleed Latios out
• 130 SpA is decent enough, but given the power creep, you need a boost from steroids Life Orb or Choice Specs to even have remotely good damage output
• 80/80/110 bulk isn't good if uninvested, as this means the only attacks you'll be taking are resisted attacks or if the enemy is also uninvested. Even then, some resisted attacks (e.g. Choice Specs Volcanion's Steam Eruption) will be excruciating.
• Being a Psychic-type just sucks. (They better buff it at some point or I'ma do something dumb)

Yea, the power creep has really bled out Latios bad. (And his Mega Evolution did nothing to fix it, while it fixed mons like Sceptile and Lopunny. How is that fair?)



Now, my turn.



And before I begin, let me say something about your more "minor downsides": if you enter battle failing to acknowledge these downsides, then you're just asking for trouble. I'm just saying some tactical command should be able to fix this.

As stated by a gentleman (or lady) named Seth_:

You are looking at it at wrong way.

Imagine how good latios is if most teams run pursuit to get rid off him. It checks multiple threads like keldeo, breloom, amoongus, terrakion, rotom, garchomp and many others. It has roost, defog, and is quite bulky with nice defensive typing. LO draco meteor is one of the strongest special attacks in OU. He don't have rocks weakness and is not affected by spikes.

Latios is OU major thread with his reliability and versatility. You can expect him in most teams like HO, BO and balance.

I feel this alone justifies the A+ rank. I could leave it at that, as it seems to me that he defines the meta to the point where many teams have multiple checks to him. However, I will go on, because this isn't the only reason why Latios is up in A+.

Did you happen to look at page 10 of this viability thread? Because we happened to have a discussion as to why Mr. Latios is hanging out in A+. If you didn't, I'll briefly summarize it for you:

• He has a limited ability to get around checks and counters (e.g. Colbur Berry, HP Fire)
• Functions as a means of hazard removal not reliant on sand, nor weak to Spikes, SR, or Ground moves
• Has decent enough hitting power and speed (yea, I don't get it either)
• Lures and weakens walls so that allies can break through
• Is a very splashable counter to enemy Fighters and Waters
• Offers limited role compression (well, the only roles it can compress are counter, lure, and Defogger), which is helpful considering Latios is very splashable

You say, basically, "yea, he's splashable, but he still not worthy of his current rank." I feel as if you are understating the importance of splashability; it is one of the key reasons why Keldeo, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Tornadus-T, and Tyranitar are up there in A+. Splashability is VERY important. True, some Pokémon like Rotom-W aren't as splashable, but they are still splashable enough to earn a rank in A+, especially considering that Rotom-W has a very important role as an effective pivot.

But I digress.

And Latios is not only splashable, but can also fulfill a multitude of roles – this is called role compression iirc –, which compounds VERY well with his splashability. Especially considering that his roles are some VERY helpful stuff – hazard removal, lure, and power(?), plus limited ability to work around his checks. You can also tailor Latios to fir YOUR team, which is also another huge factor.

WARNING: The following section concerns using Latios in combat, which some of you may be familiar with. Most of it is stating the obvious. Just letting you know.

I understand that Pursuit is a huge problem for Latios, and a Latios corpse can't do anything but stink. But it's not like the enemy can just mindlessly click on their Pursuit trapper – they have to predict too, they have to think "Oh, will he/she double switch into his Keldeo?". So it's not as one sided as it seems. Compound this with the fact that Latios can survive a Pursuit if he stays in, and the situation more resembles a 60-40.

Now, if the Pursuit user gets in on a free switch, THEN s### gets real. If Latios is your only check to Keldeo or Breloom or whatever s### the enemy has, then stuff can get out of hand. However, let's look at this realistically. The only time a Pursuit trapper is switching in for free is if the enemy pivots, double switches, if you slay an enemy, or they come in on something like Defog. Typically, when Latios comes in, he will be doing SOMETHING – luring in an enemy threat, Defogging (you know, Talonflame really likes that), or just weakening enemy walls. Heck, he could even use Memento. By the time the Pursuit trapper is coming in, Latios would have done something – weaken the Pursuit trapper in question for a Talonflame sweep (Latios and Talonflame can overwhelm a Tyranitar, similar to how Pinsir and Excadrill overwhelm Landorus-T; Weavile just gets owned by Draco Meteor), remove hazards for a Talonflame sweep, or, again, just inflict some damage. It's not like Latios died in vain – he would have done SOMETHING before death. (And if the enemy makes a double switch, well, good for him/her. It's not like you can't double switch either.)

Furthermore, I would argue that if you rely on a Pursuit-weak Pokemon to act as your only check/counter to a certain enemy, then that is bad teambuilding on the defender's part. Think about it: If you rely on a Pokémon to check a certain enemy, then you need to understand how your check can falter. It's how Sand teams typically work – overwhelm the living s### out of the enemy Landorus-T or Hippowdon. I build my teams with the understanding that I can lose to enemy Sand teams if Landorus-T gets overwhelmed, and I develop a game plan that I fall back on in case Landorus-T goes down – whether it is to limit the amount of times Excadrill/Tyranitar can switch in safely (or outright kill them), to waste Sand turns (e.g. Protect stall with Diancie), whatever – it would be foolish to rely solely on Landorus-T to stop enemy Sand teams, as Sand teams always have a way to get around Landorus-T. This backup plan doesn't always to be a second Pokémon – it can be a battle tactic; something as simple as a timely double switch can act as a backup plan if you do it right.

Same goes here – if Latios is your ONLY way to stop mons like Breloom, Keldeo, blablabla, then something's wrong. You SHOULD have a backup plan in case Latios is down. So even if Latios is trapped by Pursuit, you shouldn't be too shaken up over it – you should have a backup plan to deal with that Keldeo or Breloom or blablablabla (e.g. denying Keldeo free switch-in opportunities). Especially since Pursuit is all over the place – you must understand that because Latios is liable to getting Pursuited, that he shouldn't be your only way to stop Keldeo or Breloom.

"Oh", I hear you say, "then that means that I shouldn't use Latios, because he's Pursuit-weak. I should use something else that check what he does, while not being Pursuit-weak." So be it. If Latios doesn't fit in your team, HE DOESN'T FIT IN YOUR TEAM. Don't be stupid and throw in Latios if he doesn't belong there.

Furthermore, I can list few other Pokémon who can do what Latios does – what other Pokémon can remove hazards, have massive DPS, switch into enemies like Keldeo, Mega Manectric, Breloom, Amoonguss, etc., check (not counter) even more enemies, lure in enemies, and even work around some of his checks, all while being able to be tailored to your team's needs? Well, I suppose Latias, but Latias isn't as good as Latios in luring in enemies. I would consider Pursuit a small price to pay for this, especially because a) not every team has Pursuit (Pursuit support isn't as splashable as you think it is) and b) assuming you have a functioning brain, you have some sort of backup plan.

And when I read your post, I got the impression that you were saying "oh, Latios is checked by x mon and y mon, so he should drop." By that argument, Clefable shouldn't be in S rank. (I'm just generalizing, forgive me if I missed your point.) You shouldn't expect Latios to be bad because he is checked by x mon and y mon. Yes, he has a limited ability to work around some of his checks. No, he can't get around all of them. What do you think you have teammates for?

Wow, that turned out to be long. Sorry for the book.

And I will let you in on a fear of mine: the power creep will eventually render Latios obsolete – as my parents told me in my youth, "We aren't getting any younger." I fear that, then, will Latios be considered truly a bad Pokémon. He may get his Soul Dew back, but that's just kicking the can down the road. Snorlax is a living example of this.

 

[BuzzkillAmpharos]

B- to B

I swear I am not crazy when thinking that Mamoswine should move up a rank. To start off, let me just emphasize how this thing is affected by the recent meta game trends. Look at all the common cores nowadays. Fat grass types, defensive Lando T, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Heatran, and if this thing is at full health it lives a Bullet Punch from Mega Scizor, making it be able to beat that too. And you may not think that it can break Rotom W, but with it now being almost always a Specially Defensive pivot, Mamoswine completely takes advantage of it.

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 177-208 (58.2 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 117-139 (38.4 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yeah, the rolls are really in your favor here. It beats the annoying thing that is Tyranitar and gets rid of the sand setter earlier. It has notable traits over the other premier ice type in the tier, Weavile. For one, it has STAB Earthquake, it has access to Freeze-Dry, allowing to squeeze past some normal Weavile counters in Quagsire and Gastrodon. In fact, this thing pretty much just dunks on stall. Especially, if it is running some banded set, and although it may not be common, stall just gets torn to shreds by it. Also, contrary to Weavile, it has a way to get past its bulky water type counters in Freeze Dry.

The meta getting slower only adds to credibility that this thing can dunk on teams right now. It still has its issues of losing to priority users like Azumarill and Mega Scizor. Yeah, Keldeo, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Cham dunk on it as long as they aren't in Ice Shard range, and by the way that really helps Mamoswine be a great late game cleaner. It also has that lead focus sash set which isn't its best set in my honest opinion, but that does make it a reliable rocker, and something that can break cores with a sash in tact. Additionally, having Oblivious is fantastic so it cannot be taunted, which does improve its match up vs Taunt users like Life Orb Torn T and Gengar. It also has pretty good utility in Knock Off too.

Overall, Mamoswine still holds its flaws its had in the past, but those can be diminished now by the meta getting slower and by this thing just being a great anti-meta mon. It breaks cores in half and has things over Weavile. It also has ways to get past Bulky Waters which is something no viable Ice Type can say. Mamoswine to B.

 

[Acamm130]

I need to say that I completely agree with the latios drop (despite it being the unpopular opinion).

The first point that I want to touch upon is the fact that while, yes, you can play around pursuit trappers, the increased presence of them, specifically tyranitar, is a current metagame trend that inherently hurts latios by virtue of its psychic typing. A random example I can the argument that you can double int keldeo on the predicted tyranitar would be t"I can double out of my breloom on the ever so common bulky bulky grasses so breloom is great for teams because it allows me to bait said grasses in against my breloom and kill them with my *insert flying type here*". The other main thing is that latios's checks are all very good. Looking at S, clefable is obviously a fantastic stop to it. A+ through A- also has a plethora of things to deal with it including heatran, ferrothorn, mega scizor, tyranitar, torn-t, weavile, bisharp, Jirachi, and mega metagross. With this in mind, some these very splashable mons are bound to be on a good ou team and makes it easy to prep for latios without even thinking about it. Finally, even things that latios is supposed to check can easily beat down latios over the course of the match (specifically keldeo and volcaneon with burns). All in all, Latios is really a fantastic mon that provides great role compression and hazard removal for teams but the meta just has so much to take on latios that it sould drop to A. Everyone loves to shit on mega alt saying that the meta is SO prepared for it, and while Latios is easily a superior mon, I feel it is important to compare the two because, like how the meta is prepared for Mega Alt, it is also prepared for Latios.

Latios A+ -> A

 

[AM]

Latios' checks are good in a theoretical vacuum. What I mean is that just because you have a Ferrothorn doesn't mean you're all of a sudden safe from Latios, because it can viably run HP Fire to heavily damage or just eliminate it depending on the circumstance. Another one is Surf which has gained a bit more traction to cover the extremely viable Heatran. Its moveset isn't limited to the shitty dual STAB Roost Defog sets and you can't necessarily justify its placement off of that (seriously this set is garbage please reconsider your build if you have to actually use this unless you have a Pinsir or something.) The necessity to have a steel on your team is largely in part due to the power of fairies and dragons, more specifically Latios' access to Draco Meteor. Clefable is like, the only good check to where you can switch in safely and be relatively ok and that's mostly cause Clefs have started to run Bold more now to not have shitty rolls on Psyshock (things like Lando-T as well but I digress). Ttar has been pursuiting Latios since Gen 5 , this isn't anything new and it hasn't stopped the centralization and effectiveness of Latios. It provides tons of role compression, synergy, and utility for a team and while WCOP usage stats arent up to date, in R1 it maintained the #2 spot in usage with a 50% winrate, below Lando-T which always has a huge usage rate. Granted stats aren't always the deciding factor but if the ORAS guys are using it on teams consistently to the level where it's one of the top 10 mons used on teams that's definitely a sign it's a centralizing and effective force. Most of the top 10-20 are usually the good stuff, the thread here kind of gives it a vaguely subjective value here.

Everyone shits on Mega Alt because it's not a good mon over the plethora of other choices for wall-breakers and dragon dancers and the presence of certain steels like M-Scizor can sometimes invalidate its effectiveness entirely or mandate a total team on its back to support it. You really don't have to even think to have Mega Altaria covered in most cases and creating an effective team around M-Alt is gonna be much more of a hassle than making a team and putting Latios on it to support a win con or just provide its usual utility.

About the pursuit thing, Weavile and Ttar are the only good pursuiters when talking about their matchup vs Latios. Bisharp wants to be using Swords Dance so it isn't absolutely dogshit and takes like 60-70 from Draco if you're forced to actually switch it in for w/e reason, same with M-Gross except there's so many other options it can run here like Ice and Thunderpunch, regular Metagross is niche and sort of bad these days anyways, the AV Torn-T set is slowly dying down in effectiveness due to more preparation for it unlike during the Hoopa days and that's always been a roll after rocks when Psyshock is taken into account so not the greatest means to handle Latios. Weavile needs volt-turn support to get in safely, a double, or come after Latios has killed something off it doesn't just remove Latios automatically. These pursuiters also invite certain set up sweepers that are paired with Latios to take advantage of, SD Bisharp as the most basic example.

Don't drop Latios zzzzz

 

[Spoons of Justice]

I need to say that I completely agree with the latios drop (despite it being the unpopular opinion).

The first point that I want to touch upon is the fact that while, yes, you can play around pursuit trappers, the increased presence of them, specifically tyranitar, is a current metagame trend that inherently hurts latios by virtue of its psychic typing. A random example I can the argument that you can double int keldeo on the predicted tyranitar would be t"I can double out of my breloom on the ever so common bulky bulky grasses so breloom is great for teams because it allows me to bait said grasses in against my breloom and kill them with my *insert flying type here*". The other main thing is that latios's checks are all very good. Looking at S, clefable is obviously a fantastic stop to it. A+ through A- also has a plethora of things to deal with it including heatran, ferrothorn, mega scizor, tyranitar, torn-t, weavile, bisharp, Jirachi, and mega metagross. With this in mind, some these very splashable mons are bound to be on a good ou team and makes it easy to prep for latios without even thinking about it. Finally, even things that latios is supposed to check can easily beat down latios over the course of the match (specifically keldeo and volcaneon with burns). All in all, Latios is really a fantastic mon that provides great role compression and hazard removal for teams but the meta just has so much to take on latios that it sould drop to A. Everyone loves to shit on mega alt saying that the meta is SO prepared for it, and while Latios is easily a superior mon, I feel it is important to compare the two because, like how the meta is prepared for Mega Alt, it is also prepared for Latios.

Latios A+ -> A

Hm, yes, that Psychic-type is indeed a problem.

It seems all of you are opting for Latios to drop because it isn’t hard to counter him and it isn’t hard to check him. This is the main argument I see when I read posts that say, “Oh, x mon should be dropped because he can’t really sweep – counters are easily splashable, etc.”

Key words: “he can’t really sweep.”

Now, I don't know about you, but I personally view Latios as a support mon, NOT a sweeper. It seems like other people out there view Latios as a sweeper, just like you would view Mega Diancie. Latios's time to sweep is long gone – not with the power creep holding Latios back.

You are VERY correct, it is very easy to stop Latios from bowling your team over. (That's why he's not S-rank or Ubers.) It is very easy to revenge kill a Latios, especially when you have Pursuit at your disposal. (Damn the power creep) It doesn't take any effort. That is why he is no sweeper. Instead, he’s more of a wallbreaker – and one with a passable speed tier.

"But Spoons," I hear you say, "that doesn’t really make sense. Yeah, weakening walls is cool and all, but the same can be said for Mega Medicham and Azumarill, who are all hanging out in A. By your argument, these guys should be hanging out in A+ too, right?"

Well, one thing everyone seems to overlook is that there are some very real flaws that most of the residents of A rank hold. Azumarill and Medicham hold unideal speed tiers for sweeping, and are relatively one dimensional.

That last part was especially important. Yes, both Azumarill and Medicham are great at wallbreaking, but what else do they bring to the table? The answer: absolutely nothing. This was my reasoning for opposing a young gentleman/lady who opted for Mega Medicham to rise to A+.

Latios in comparison brings not only wallbreaking, but also utility. And this gives him an edge over other wallbreakers.

Latios brings utility, splashability, luring capabilities, and wall weakening to teams who employ him. Yes, his wallbreaking may be faulty. This is a very real flaw, which is why he isn’t in S-rank right now. But I think that’s a small price to pay for having utility around, as well as a not-crap Speed tier. Look at other wallbreakers – for instance, Mega Medicham and Azumarill. What they can they do? Wallbreak. That’s literally it. No utility, no Speed. If that’s not A+ caliber, then I don’t think Latios is A caliber.

Latios somewhat crudely combines being a wallbreaker and being a supporter. Combine this with the fact that he is VERY splashable and rarely falters in his jobs (two VERY important things), and I believe he has earned a place in A+. At least for the time being.

Yes, he has splashable counters. Yes, his 110 Speed isn’t enough when it comes down to revenge killing. But you know what? That doesn’t matter. Do you know why? Because he’s not sweeping – splashable counters aren't gonna stop the sweep if Latios isn't gonna sweep in the first place. A sweeper would care a lot, because he wants to sweep, but can’t because his counters are all over the place. But Latios isn’t a sweeper. He’s a wallbreaker-support hybrid (and a rather messy one at that).

Furthermore, you cannot simply say that "Pursuit stops him, Tyranitar/Heatran stops him, Ferrothorn stops him, Jirachi/Clefable stops him, they're all over the place, get Latios out of A+." Don't forget, Latios has a limited ability to get around his checks, like Surf/EQ and HP Fire, plus Pursuit users aren't always able to switch in freely, for fear of a double or for fear of immediate death by Draco Meteor. Yes, there is little he can do vs. Jirachi and Clefable. But Jirachi isn't as splashable, and Clefable is prone to being pressured because it has to check a lot of enemies at once. Besides, what do you think you have teammates for?

And if Latios doesn't fit in your team, HE DOESN'T FIT. Don't be stupid and put him in there if he doesn't belong. That's the only realistic reason I can think of as to why people are complaining about a SUPPORT mon having "splashable" checks.

I cannot stress this enough: Latios should be the one giving support, not the one receiving it.

Keep him in A+. He does his job effectively (potential jobs were discussed earlier, in addition to page 10 of this viability thread), is multi-dimensional, can be tailored to fit your team, and is very splashable, all of which are very important things. Especially the last three, as they pair together excellently. Yes, his checks are all over the place, but they aren't as splashable as he is, and he can work together with his teammates to overwhem that one wall or to repel that one check.



EDIT: I could end it there, but I won’t.

You must also consider the following: would Latios be at home in A? I’m completely OK with Latios hanging out in A – it is far from a bad rank, as it holds my ever-faithful Manaphy and Slowbro. However, if you are opting to drop, you must ask yourself, “does he look out of place here?” People in A rank all have certain issues, usually related to splashability, how splashable their counters are, how effective they are at their jobs, how much utility they provide, and how hurtful their weaknesses are.

For example, look at Slowbro. His positive traits are that he’s unkillable from the physical side if you don’t use super effective attacks, Scald and Thunder Wave are threatening as ever, he has reliable recovery, and he can set up with Calm Mind, all of which are good for the team. However, his downsides are that he is fairly weak in terms of damage output (again, courtesy of the power creep), which renders him fodder for enemies like Clefable, Latios, and Ferrothorn. Sure, he can Thunder Wave or burn them, which is bad, but what further harm can he do? He can’t always set up with Calm Mind because his speed is so bad that he has to take a hit before doing anything. On top of that, his special bulk is lacking, and he’s asking for trouble if an Electric-type is around.

Now look at Latios. Latios is certainly very splashable, and provides a passable (not an excellent) amount of utility, and is fairly effective at whatever his job is, whether it be acting as a lure, Defogging, weakening enemy walls, or just providing utility in general. His downsides are that his counters are "splashable", and doesn’t excel vs. offense because, you know, Speed. Does that seem like A material to you? Especially when you put Latios up versus other wallbreakers, like Mega Medicham and Azumarill.

And don’t forget what I said earlier, that Latios has utility by his side, which few other wallbreakers do.

 

[thesecondbest]

Victini belongs above C+. Stall has no answer to it and the banded set can OHKO kube without stealth rocks help. That is some serious power. You would have to be very disingenuous to put it in the same rank as "literal garbage" like mega gallade and zygarde.
Will add calcs tomorrow morning i need to sleep

 

[p2]

victinis problem is the insane usage of pursuit in the meta right now and its horrible horrible defensive synergy with literally all forms of hazard removal in the tier, stacks pursuit weaknesses with latis and starmie, stacks rock weaknesses with zapdos and togekiss if that's your thing, and it stacks annoying water, ground, and grass weaknesses with mega diancie, as well as excadrill (just no grass weakness). it's very hard to fit on a team that can support it without being overly weak to big dominant threats which is one of the biggest problems victini has to face.

stall definitely does have an answer to it given how common trapping seems to be nowadays, and even unboosted pursuits are gonna either pick it off or severely cripple it especially after vcreate drops.

also @ above, you're all insane for thinking latios is even near dropping or for even considering that idea

 

[baddummy]

Yeah the Crawdaunt rise to B is definitely warranted. It really has few switch ins at all, and even against offence it can do stuff like revenge Heatran, and stop LO Excadrill under sand from sweeping. But the big reason is that it just shreds anything defensive. Yeah it has piss poor defences, but that doesn't matter when it has just enough speed to beat out all walls. With two of the best stab moves in the game, and having them being further boosted by adaptability, it has very few switch ins, OHKOing anything weak to either (Which is quite a lot of mons), and 2HKOing pretty much anything on the switch in.

Before, defensive teams might have run something like Venusaur, and maybe SubCM Keldeo as a wincon. Now, that has kinda shifted to running Cm Slowbro as a wincon, and either amoonguss or Tangrowth to back it up. Or at least, the only person I can think of who still runs those mons is that one guy. This obviously hugely benefits Crawdaunt, and has made it be more effective than it was before. From this it might sound like I'm saying Crawdaunt is godlike, it's not. It is still super easy to revenge, and very difficult for it to come in on anything. Furthermore, it will only really be cleaning up slower teams because water resists faster than it aren't too hard to come by. However, I generally see B rank as mons that are generally flawed and can't function independently, but have something good to offer if you support them the right way, and it's pretty clear that Crawdaunt fits into this category.

Also, just to talk about Latios for a bit. It definitely fits into a+. There are lots of mons in that sub category that are weaker than it in the meta. Latios hits incredibly hard, soft checks a bunch of mons with its good speed tier such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, Manaphy, and has excellent coverage with a huge number of options at its disposal for the set you want to run. In my personal opinion, its biggest boon is that it is without a doubt the most splashable form of hazard removal in the tier, and that can't be understated. It might not devastate teams, but it pulls its weight in literally every single matchup, and sometimes it can seem like it is very difficult not to use Latios when teambuilding for what it can check and offer in utility in hazard removal, all the while maintaining great offensive presence. No other mon offers what Latios can do, Latias isn't nearly as good for the much weaker sp atk, and so Latios definitely deserves its place as one of the frontrunners of the current metagame.

 

[croatiangamer]

So I noticed regular Tornadus isn't ranked in OU. Although one might argue Tornadus-Therian outclasses it, it must be said that Tornadus has one large perk over it in Prankster Tailwind. This allows something like Mega Heracross or Mega Medicham to come in after it and clean up with ease. It's a winning tactic which efficiency must not be underestimated. Aside from that, Tornadus is still a massive threat with STAB Hurricane coming from base 125 SpAtk. It's also still faster than the Lati's which is an important benchmark in OU. Not sure if this warrants a rank, but from testing Prankster Tailwind has been really strong and people don't really see it coming.

 

[Funbot28]

Just talked about this on the meta game discussion thread but Mega Medicham should definitely rise up to A+. It's BoltBeam set is truly outstanding at breaking holes through most bulky offence and balance teams and its ability to 2HKO practically all switchins is truly absurd and let's it stand out as the amazing wallbreakwr that it is. Yes it's low speed with the Adamant nature does mean it does get revenge killed quite easily after it kills something, but the ability to break holes so easily on teams and the decline of Mega Sableye leaves me to believe it should rise to A+ at this point.

 

[delibird=santa]

I agree with the Mega Medicham rise to A+ Funbot28 is proposing. It has great wallbreaking potential, especially with an Adamant nature. A common argument against Adamant Mega Medicham is its speed, however the rise of Bulky Offense and Semistall (and everything between Balance and Bulky Offense) leads me to believe that its speed won't hold it back as much as it has before. On top of this, Mega Medicham barely has any real counters/switchins, and, as I just stated, with the decline in HO teams it doesn't even have to worry about its speed that much anymore.

 

[Mon of Steel]

I agree with the Mega Medicham rise to A+ Funbot28 is proposing. It has great wallbreaking potential, especially with an Adamant nature. A common argument against Adamant Mega Medicham is its speed, however the rise of Bulky Offense and Semistall (and everything between Balance and Bulky Offense) leads me to believe that its speed won't hold it back as much as it has before. On top of this, Mega Medicham barely has any real counters/switchins, and, as I just stated, with the decline in HO teams it doesn't even have to worry about its speed that much anymore.

I'm kinda playing the devil's advocate here because Medicham looks stupid, but I don't think Mega Medicham has a place in A+. Why? It's because of several key drawbacks. One thing is the fact that it isn't very splashable. However, this is relatively negligible when it comes down to discussing Mega Evolutions. The other thing is that it doesn't provide much utility. Yea, smashing walls is cool and all, but not everyone needs all that power. Some people would rather have utility instead, the kind of thing that Latios and Mega Scizor provide. What utility does Mega Medicham provide? Wallbreaking, and that's about it. Which is cool until you realize two things: one, that there are other, more splashable wallbreakers out there such as Latios and Azumarill, and that not everyone needs all that power, and would want utility instead, as wallbreaking can only do so much.

If you're serious about rising Medicham, you must ask yourself, "What advantage does Medicham hold over other wallbreakers?" The only advantage I can see is that its switch-ins are limited, but considering that a) its Speed sucks, so it is revenged killed without too much issue, all you have to do is sack someone, and b) it provides no utility, these two downsides don't pair well together.

These reasons are largely why Medicham is down in A in the first place. It is one dimensional, fails to excel outside of its niche, and its niche is relatively small, even if it's a helpful niche. This is why other wallbreakers, like Azumarill and Volcanion, are in A. This is where I ask again: what advantage does Medicham hold over them?

And I'm not even bringing up other issues such as its fragility (which is kind of a big deal) and stuff like opportunity cost and splashability.

Also, might I ask how exactly does Mega Medicham define the meta? Residents of A+ are usually defining the meta, what has Medicham contributed? The only things I can see are that it smashes walls, and...that's about it. How does this define the meta, when I have countless other wallbreakers to choose from, such as Azumarill, Landorus-T, etc., all of whom are more splashable and have some utility at least? Yes, Medicham has all that power, but is all that power really needed? You heard me right, I'm saying Medicham has too much power, and this leaves it one-dimensional and frail and slow. Especially when you consider that Medicham's utility is kind of sitting at 0.

 

[HailFall]

I'm kinda playing the devil's advocate here because Medicham looks stupid, but I don't think Mega Medicham has a place in A+. Why? It's because of several key drawbacks. One thing is the fact that it isn't very splashable. However, this is relatively negligible when it comes down to discussing Mega Evolutions. The other thing is that it doesn't provide much utility. Yea, smashing walls is cool and all, but not everyone needs all that power. Some people would rather have utility instead, the kind of thing that Latios and Mega Scizor provide. What utility does Mega Medicham provide? Wallbreaking, and that's about it. Which is cool until you realize two things: one, that there are other, more splashable wallbreakers out there such as Latios and Azumarill, and that not everyone needs all that power, and would want utility instead, as wallbreaking can only do so much.

If you're serious about rising Medicham, you must ask yourself, "What advantage does Medicham hold over other wallbreakers?" The only advantage I can see is that its switch-ins are limited, but considering that a) its Speed sucks, so it is revenged killed without too much issue, all you have to do is sack someone, and b) it provides no utility, these two downsides don't pair well together.

These reasons are largely why Medicham is down in A in the first place. It is one dimensional, fails to excel outside of its niche, and its niche is relatively small, even if it's a helpful niche. This is why other wallbreakers, like Azumarill and Volcanion, are in A. This is where I ask again: what advantage does Medicham hold over them?

And I'm not even bringing up other issues such as its fragility (which is kind of a big deal) and stuff like opportunity cost and splashability.

Also, might I ask how exactly does Mega Medicham define the meta? Residents of A+ are usually defining the meta, what has Medicham contributed? The only things I can see are that it smashes walls, and...that's about it. How does this define the meta, when I have countless other wallbreakers to choose from, such as Azumarill, Landorus-T, etc., all of whom are more splashable and have some utility at least? Yes, Medicham has all that power, but is all that power really needed? You heard me right, I'm saying Medicham has too much power, and this leaves it one-dimensional and frail and slow. Especially when you consider that Medicham's utility is kind of sitting at 0.

Youre really underselling how ridiculous medicham is rn. Against all but a few select teams, medicham has the potential to get a KO each and every time it comes in. The power behind medicham's high jump kick ohkoes almost all of the metagame that doesnt resist it, and a good portion of the metagame that does. It has near perfect coverage meaning defensive responses to it are incredibly limited. Im not sure how so many people have gotten it into their head that 100 base speed is bad, but it really isnt. Its a very decent speed tier, especially for something with as much pure destructive power as megacham. It might not provide much besides wallbreaking, but damn is it good at it. Medicham is much easier to use than most other wallbreakers and more powerful than all of them by far. Most resists are taking at least 50% from high jump kick just due to how retardedly powerful medicham is. Azumarill and volcanion are both slower than medicham, and volcanion is super easy to wear down while azu has common and viable switchins to both its stab moves even if not much wants to take both. Azu also needs to be holding choice band to get a large degree of the power it needs to excell making it quite prediction reliant. Except in the rare cases that your opponent has a ghost type, theres almost zero downsides to just clicking high jump kick. Medicham isnt even that fragile, people really overstate its fragility. Its bulk is pretty average for an offensive mon. I might also bring up that it has the exact same defensive stats as starmie which can viably run defensive sets, which should at least show that medi isnt totally frail (i realize some of starmies bulk is in its typing but jesus medi is not anywhere near as frail as people say). Medicham isnt that easy to revenge kill either. Medi can just switch out, no medi is going to stay in on a hit thats obviously going to kill it unless its a sack. It has a resistance to stealth rock meaning it doesnt get worn down by hazards quickly. Spikers like ferro and skarm are medicham bait making it hard to wear down that way. Unlike a certain other absurdly powerful wallbreaker we've seen in past, medi cant really be pursuit trapped either as all common pursuit trappers get absolutely obliterated by it. Medi doesnt have to be good at everything when its as insanely good at its one job as it is. The metagame defining aspect of it definitely does fit. We've been seeing megacham everywhere recently. Its gotten super popular on ladder and it does a great job of taking advantage of the best playstyle, bulky offense. Medi has really established itself as a top tier threat recently and it definitely should rise to A+.

 

[KztxL7]

If you're serious about rising Medicham, you must ask yourself, "What advantage does Medicham hold over other wallbreakers?" The only advantage I can see is that its switch-ins are limited, but considering that a) its Speed sucks, so it is revenged killed without too much issue, all you have to do is sack someone, and b) it provides no utility, these two downsides don't pair well together.

Revenge Killing should never be used as an argument against anything unless you're in a suspect test and you're trying to get something banned by saying it can't be revenge killed. The only time revenge killing should be difficult is against a set-up sweeper which is supposed to be difficult to revenge kill because they set-up after all potential threats to the sweep are eliminated.

It does not have to have utility if it's serving as a wallbreaker not a utility mon. It's job is to punch holes in the opposing team.

You can't sit there and ask "What advantage does Medicham hold over other wallbreakers?" and then proceed to write "it has too much power" because you literally answered your own question. That overwhelming power in comparsion to all the other ones is why you're using it. Combined with it's coverage, it's going to be smashing through literally everything that switches into it.

 

[mmkzero0]

I really have a problem with Medi as it should be A or A+. On the one Hand it's really outrageous in it's Job as a Wallbreaker; you know something's strong if PhysDef Clef is 2HKOd by HJK. Common Pivots such as RotomW and Amoongus get obliterated, and Mega Sciz, the best Mega in this Pursuit-Infested Metagame, looses up to ~90(!)% of it's HP to HJK on the bulky set. Not even LandoT is safe thanks to Ice Punch; and Skarm gets destroyed by TPunch. Medi excels in it's niche with a deceptively high SpeedTier for a Wallbreaker at 100 Base.

But not all's great for our OU Powerhouse: it's Bulk is mediocre with 60/85/85, paired with a weakness to Flying and Fairy, both common types in OU. The biggest Problem I have though is that 10% chance of Medis best move to miss. Miss one and your Medi's surely gone if the opponent stayed in to attack, and even if he switched 50% hp gone is a pretty big deal. Another is what Mon of Steel mentioned before me: Medi lacks any kind of utility, an important factor when thinking about a rise to A+. Every mon there Excels through either Offensive or Defensive traits AND Utility: Diancie, an Offensive powerhouse with a great Ability to controll opposing Utility and the Field. Heatran, a great Glue that can be used offensive or defensive through it's great typing. Keldeo as a Wallbreaker or Revenger, providing a great typing for offensive Teams. Landorus granting Rocks, Passive Damage, a Counter to physical mobs and more. Lati as a Glue, Defogger, Special Powerhouse while still checking stuff like ZardY or Keldeo. Rotom as a great Pivot that gives Momentum through a Great typing and spreads burns. Same for Scizor, but with a more offensive vibe. TornadusT, a fast offensive or defensive pivot and even a Stallbreaker. And TTar, Wallbreaker, Pursuiter, SandSetter, Revengekiller.

All of them can provide so much compressed in only one Mon. They are not one-dimensional or compress at least multiple roles into one. MCham just doesnt fit there: it's niche is to wallbreak, but thats about it. It doesnt provide anything else.

And I feel that the point that Medi kills something almost every time it get's in is severely overrated because people play the wrong way against it: one has to play agressive, prevent it from coming in or predict the switch. Once you do that Medi isn't as scary, at least to me.

Besides that I recently see more Doublade on (Semi)Stall, and this thing is propably the only true Counter besides Sableye to it. Noone is really prepared for it's typing these days, and Medi gets straight walled. (KnockOff is really popular tho, so yeah)

All in all I really struggle to see Medi as A+ in the end. MMedi stay A

(Sorry for any mistakes I made, my first post in this thread)

 

[3333e3333]

I think that if Mega Medicham is to rise, then we need to answer some questions:

• Does it define the meta?
• Does it do many jobs well OR does it do one job very well?
• How valuable are its jobs?
• Are easier substitutes available?
• How well does it shed blood, both standalone and with allies?

I will provide my 2 cents on the questions, and tell you my final verdict at the end.

To start, I don't know if it defines the meta. On the one hand, it is very one-dimensional, and it isn't very hard to check. On the other hand, it stomps unprepared teams. The same can be said for something like Rampardos, however.

Its job is to wallbreak, which it does a good job at. Though how valuable this job is is kinda matchup-dependent -- BO/HO just sack and move on, while the Stall laughs at Medicham because Mega Sableye has successfully infested and corrupted OU. (Ok, not really, when Sableye is down then the Stall quits laughing. So Medicham does have a good matchup there.)

There are other wallbreakers, though comparing them to Medicham is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. These other wallbreakers forfeit power and bring utility instead. This means that Medicham can't fit onto teams that well nor is it very splashable because of its one dimensionality. On the other hand, this is kinda acceptable for a Mega Evolution, and if you afford to get by with less utility, then Medicham definitely pays off. Though admittedly enough, most of the time you would rather have utility, especially, as aptly quoted by a Stall player, "Our enemies have so much power at their disposal, yet none of it will save them from the Stall."

In combat, it falters when it is by itself, as 100 Speed and low bulk leave it open to losing a 1v1 fight vs. faster mons (thanks to the power creep, there are countless enemies that outspeed Medicham). However, it isn't meant to sweep, but rather wallbreak (read: walls are fairly slow) – which is its one and only job. However, when Medicham can't switch into these walls (Landorus-T's EQ does something like 80% to Medicham). Considering that I can get past walls without Medicham, it doesn't take a genius to conclude that Medicham is, technically speaking, useless. However, de facto, this would be inaccurate, as Medicham kills walls faster, which is helpful, but is it enough to get Medicham into A+? Don't forget that Medicham is one-dimensional and has an opportunity cost associated with it.

And I would like to say that although Medicham has Starmie's bulk, it's likely going to be uninvested. Thus it's not as bulky as you think. Also, Medicham's 100 Spe is kind of a big deal, because of its uninvested bulk – this leaves it open to revenge killing.

I would also like to point out that many people are using the point that "Medicham has limited switch-ins" to further their argument. The same can be said for mons like Rampardos and Tyrantrum, yet we accept the fact that they aren't in A+. What makes Medicham stand out from these mons?

So in conclusion, it's fragile, can't do anything but wallbreak, that job is kinda questionable and matchup-dependent, other wallbreakers are available and more splashable and also give more utility, and falters when forced to fight standalone and needs team support. Is this worthy of A+?

Yes, yes it is worthy.

 

[MemeMeme Island]

This is stupid. All this "utility" stuff is bullshit. Mega Medicham hits like a truck with an absolutely tremendous Attack. That is Mega Medicham's job, and that one job alone is A+. I don't see anywhere that a mon needs "utility" in order to rise. It's true that Mega Medicham basically can't do anything but wallbreak, but it does that one thing it can do so well, well enough to make it worthy of A+.

 

[3333e3333]

This is stupid. All this "utility" stuff is bullshit. Mega Medicham hits like a truck with an absolutely tremendous Attack. That is Mega Medicham's job, and that one job alone is A+. I don't see anywhere that a mon needs "utility" in order to rise. It's true that Mega Medicham basically can't do anything but wallbreak, but it does that one thing it can do so well, well enough to make it worthy of A+.

It's not just utility. It's the fact that it only has one job.

What if you don't need a powerful wallbreaker? What if one with lesser power is acceptable? Given that this is usually the case, that you can get by with lesser power, this means there is lesser reason to use your Mega Evolution on Medicham.

Still, it's your choice as to what wallbreaker you want. If it's Medicham you want, then good for you.

 

[tigers jaw]

This is stupid. All this "utility" stuff is bullshit. Mega Medicham hits like a truck with an absolutely tremendous Attack. That is Mega Medicham's job, and that job is A+. I don't see anywhere that a mon needs "utility" in order to rise. It's true that Mega Medicham basically can't do anything but wallbreak, but it does that one thing it can do so well, well enough to make it A+ worthy.

Hate to rehash what mmkzero0 said but if you go down the current list of A+, the all do multiple things, all of them excellently, and they all have potential utility applications, and offer great role compression, such as Ttar checking a million things with defensive sets and getting up rocks whilst being able to set sand for drill, blowing fat to pieces with Band, and offering a somewhat-reliable Dark/Ghost resist and premium Lati trapper with Scarf. Tran checks a hell of a lot of shit whilst breaking conventional stall/fat to pieces. Diancie's ability to prevent hazards is overblown in my opinion, if I'm honest, considering it dare not switch into the main setters in the tier, not matter whether it be Spikes or Rocks, but Diancie is genuinely fast enough to make it not dead-weight against offensive builds, whilst also doing great work against BO. Latios is Latios, it's been covered in depth recently with regards to why it is A+.

I could go on through the A+ list but really, take a look at it and in general how much each of those Mons brings to the table from the perspective of role compression (in my opinion the most important factor in an inflated meta), and how many potential sets they can run and how effective these individual sets are. "Muh it hits hard as fuck" is not a reason to consider something metagame defining, there's a lot more to it than that.

 

[Srn]

Lol you guys are giving medicham a little TOO much credit as a wallbreaker.

I will admit that its arguably the best wallbreaker in the tier right now, but the fact that mega sableye, a pokemon seen on pretty much every good stall team, hard walls mega medicham goes against its favor quite a bit. The fact that the wallbreaker and mega pokemon of your team is almost completely useless against stall is enough reason for it to stay A. Atleast keldeo can scald burn and icy wind or hp flying to eventually overwhelm amoongus, but mega medicham is very reliant on teammates weakening mega sableye for it, and any competent stall player will keep their msab healthy enough for cham. Unless you get an ice punch freeze, its almost impossible for cham to put in work against msab stall.

Everybody already knows its other flaws: its not that fast or bulky, in contrast to pokemon like terrakion, thundurus, cb ttar, or mega heracross, which can all wallbreak fairly sufficiently and bring much more to the table. There's plenty of competition not only for wallbreakers but also for megas, and just having mega medicham on the team means you're going to have to dedicate atleast 1-2 pokemon as pivots to bring it in to use it well.

Take a look at every other pokemon in A+
Mega Diancie checks key threats to offense and has a difficult to wall stab combo as well as excellent stats and typing; it does more than just attack.
Keldeo, Latios, TTar, Mega Scizor, Torn-t, Heatran, LanT, and Rotom-w are all some of the best at the several roles they bring to any team, and if they only do one thing they do it fucking well without much support (or they ARE the support)
What mega medi does best is simply hjk, and that'd be great if that was all it had to do to screw any slower team over, but the mere presence of mega sableye means your wallbreaker might be completely useless at its only job.

Mega medi's good, but its far from A+, especially in the newer standards of ou vr.