Mafia vs Village Double Lynchpin Mafia - MONSTERS WIN

[JALMONT]

If you're village, you need to start thinking for yourself and asking yourself what is the best lynch in this occasion. If you're a fire wizard you need to think really fucking hard about whether or not it's worthwhile to mis-lynch your hooker over the "watcher."

Here's my results: hooked twin n0, hooked tymano n1. The only reason I'm claiming (I don't really want to) is that I feel this is a case where it's very important that I don't die, regardless of how strong I am. Twin can confirm, tymano can confirm. I am hooker, role name Black Mage. Probably one of the two is mafia (tymano?) and thought they could try to frame me because they watched me. Otherwise, I assume snype would've just gone after newplayer64 or whatever.

This vote is very much a "he said, she said" situation. Before you vote me think long and fucking hard about what is happening here. Don't vote me because Snype said so, vote me because you think the evidence adds in my favor. If you're a dragon, vote me or just idle I don't give a shit.

Snype claims that billy goats blocked Ditto. Uh, remember how Haruno was town? Why the fuck would that make me bad? Not suspicious at all.

Before you vote snype because you think he has credibility as a village leader, ask yourself: why does he have that credibility? Because he shouldn't - Snype hasn't done anything to prove to anyone that he's legit except for a "guilty" on me. Bad lynch yesterday, didn't even bother to fucking talk to Haruno? That's lazy leadership at the worst, actively going for a mislynch at best. There's absolutely no reason that Snype can't be mafia at this point and none of you have any real reason to trust him.

Look at the way this leadership started. Didn't claim/step up early (which is v. common in smog mafia from villagers, mafia can't do it because they need to think about what they will claim). Didn't reveal his role upon stepping up (which is VERY suspicious, you best believe when you want to get people's trust you come out with everything). His attitude comes across as very apologetic, not willing to take responsibility, asks everyone to start posting LOL. It's just not a typical way that anyone tries to build trust in this game of mafia.

I voiced opposition to Snype, I warned people that he's nowhere close to clean. He found that "suspicious" and now look where we are?

I was also frozen which is theoretically a scum ability but then "Ice wizards" so that's not the best argument. Take that as you will.

Don't know what the fuck zorbees was doing with this sham leadership but I guess he was trying to take a back seat. Prob got namekilled which sucks but what can you do. Think about what you are doing when you lynch me. If you're an ice wizard, you probably don't want to get rid of me because when you break off you NEED to kill the mafia lynchpin to stand any chance of winning. GL taking out the mafia on your own. Fire wizards, think hard about if you want to lose me today.

It's okay if you think I'm more likely to bad. I'm just asking all of you to think about it a little harder than "SNYPE said so and he's VILLAGE LEADER so he can't lie." Wrong.

 

[Thetwinmasters]

Everybody should just claim to me imo

 

[Ditto]

Willing to godkill myself to prove myself village btw which I will consider doing if I have to. Expect a defense coming soon.

no??? what sense would that make?

Why suggest it then? Think people won't call you on it?

 

[JALMONT]

It shouldn't have to come to me godkilling myself.

 

[Ditto]

It shouldn't have to come to me godkilling myself.

Then don't suggest it to begin with!

 

[JALMONT]

That logic doesn't make sense but okay.

 

[Ditto]

How does it not make sense? You say to everyone that you're willing to godkill yourself to prove yourself village, then twin call you out. You immediately say that it's a stupid idea and makes no sense. No one else suggested it first. I agree that you shouldn't godkill yourself (I see godkills as incredibly stupid. If you do anything that would godkill yourself, instead you should just get blacklisted.), but the fact that you suggest it and then immediately turn on the idea makes me feel like you aren't village.

 

[JALMONT]

Twin didn't call me out. Twin suggested something stupid. If you want to consider asking me to do something stupid as "calling me out" then fine, you got me. I got called out. It's like being on death row and committing suicide even though you have a decent enough chance of appealing and getting off. Why would anyone rational do that? Lol. In any case I'd rather take the time to make people feel bad that they're inevitably lynching their teammate instead of instantly offing myself without giving those players a chance to feel guilty.

Why should I or anyone get blacklisted for godkilling themselves? You might as well start blacklisting hosts for hosting bad games. I hate this "culture" (I say culture even though it's not really a culture maybe just a select few) who feel the need to threaten people with a "blacklist" because they don't like them/something they did. Like just chill bro - there's plenty of ways to dissuade godkills without resorting to banning people from the community.

Feel free to ignore everything I said otherwise though and focus on an insignificant part. Are you Snype's scumbuddy too? You think the "evidence" that was used to off Haruno is grounds to kill me too?

 

[JALMONT]

If people want to talk about town!jalmont vs. scum!jalmont let me know because we can do that too. Some people don't like that sort of analysis (and I don't waste my time writing stuff no one cares about) but if anyone wants to discuss that, hit me up or post itt. Let's get it all out.

I'm going to bed. Night.

 

[Ditto]

Why should I or anyone get blacklisted for godkilling themselves? You might as well start blacklisting hosts for hosting bad games. I hate this "culture" (I say culture even though it's not really a culture maybe just a select few) who feel the need to threaten people with a "blacklist" because they don't like them/something they did. Like just chill bro - there's plenty of ways to dissuade godkills without resorting to banning people from the community.

I'm not saying that you should get blacklisted for godkilling yourself in this game because that was never said in the rules or anything. I personally just don't see godkilling as a good mechanic. Yes we got "FUCK TIGER", but to me it seems like you're ruining a mechanic of the game. As for why the blacklist, I really don't think there are too many other ways to dissuade godkills, but maybe I'm just too small minded to see them. Anyways, this is a conversation for a different thread outside of any in-game discussion.

Feel free to ignore everything I said otherwise though and focus on an insignificant part. Are you Snype's scumbuddy too? You think the "evidence" that was used to off Haruno is grounds to kill me too?

Well it was my result, so I know what the flavor was and everything. I'm not sure if that is grounds for your lynch, that's up for each individual to decide. Instead I'm voting for you because I think you are mafia in my gut. It's why I targeted you in the first place. I can't force anyone else to feel that way, but I'm going with my gut.

 

[Ampharos]

the blacklist should have been abolished after we started handpicking players tbh

not voting yet, undecided

 

[Nomark]

Lynch Jalmont

 

[Nomark]

Unvote Jalmont.
Sorry I only read page 5 when I posted that

 

[Whydon]

unvote jalmont

want to see what snype thinks about jalmont's post

 

[Thetwinmasters]

Lynch Jalmont

 

[Thetwinmasters]

I was hooked n0 if you guys care

 

[Andy Snype]

If you're village, you need to start thinking for yourself and asking yourself what is the best lynch in this occasion. If you're a fire wizard you need to think really fucking hard about whether or not it's worthwhile to mis-lynch your hooker over the "watcher."

Here's my results: hooked twin n0, hooked tymano n1. The only reason I'm claiming (I don't really want to) is that I feel this is a case where it's very important that I don't die, regardless of how strong I am. Twin can confirm, tymano can confirm. I am hooker, role name Black Mage. Probably one of the two is mafia (tymano?) and thought they could try to frame me because they watched me. Otherwise, I assume snype would've just gone after newplayer64 or whatever.

Snype claims that billy goats blocked Ditto. Uh, remember how Haruno was town? Why the fuck would that make me bad? Not suspicious at all.

Even if you are actually a hooker, there isn't anything to indicate that you are not another role as well. The fact still remains that my watcher result exists. There is nobody else that could have targeted shubaka last night for a kill, so by process of elimination it has to be you, from at least my perspective, and now that we have lost a lynchpin, it is more imperative that we need to find a mafia and lynch them. jalmont is the prime candidate which is why you are in my sights. I did not target you, I targeted shubaka with watcher since he is the obvious candidate to die according to his BG claim. I do not know if jalmont has targeted anyone else, I only know he is the only person that targeted Shubaka.

As far as why I feel the billy goat mention is important: I have not received any claim about it, which makes me more likely to believe that this safeguard is mafia, a conclusion that I made when I asked the other people that have been gathering claims have not received. I believe that by N1, due to the constraints in resource quantity, mafia are better to use safeguard on a mafia rather than a village. Given that I know that you are the only person that targeted shubaka last night, I believe that it is likely that you have another role on you in addition to hooker.

This vote is very much a "he said, she said" situation. Before you vote me think long and fucking hard about what is happening here. Don't vote me because Snype said so, vote me because you think the evidence adds in my favor. If you're a dragon, vote me or just idle I don't give a shit.


Before you vote snype because you think he has credibility as a village leader, ask yourself: why does he have that credibility? Because he shouldn't - Snype hasn't done anything to prove to anyone that he's legit except for a "guilty" on me. Bad lynch yesterday, didn't even bother to fucking talk to Haruno? That's lazy leadership at the worst, actively going for a mislynch at best. There's absolutely no reason that Snype can't be mafia at this point and none of you have any real reason to trust him.

Look at the way this leadership started. Didn't claim/step up early (which is v. common in smog mafia from villagers, mafia can't do it because they need to think about what they will claim). Didn't reveal his role upon stepping up (which is VERY suspicious, you best believe when you want to get people's trust you come out with everything). His attitude comes across as very apologetic, not willing to take responsibility, asks everyone to start posting LOL. It's just not a typical way that anyone tries to build trust in this game of mafia.

My leadership started because I honestly expected someone else to, like literally everyone else in this game. twin is the only other person who is like "holy shit is anyone going to lead?" This argument would go for anyone who claimed and is not specific to me personally. Personally, I accept full blame on the lack of communication with Haruno because I was busy with other shit and wanted to play with other stuff I thought was fun rather than go through the honestly negative aspect of leading, which is dealing w/other people's bullshit. Yeah, that was lazy of me. I didn't even know Haruno was afk for that weekend because I just looked at playerlist and randed. I'm sorry for that and I take full responsibility for not following up with Haruno but it was instinct at that point that drove me to lynch Haruno because of an odd safeguard N0, which is why I went forward with that lynch.

I had a time-sensitive lot of work in TFP Article that I was asked to GP through along with others, so that took a bit of priority, but other than that, I have other things as well and work is taxing that I don't have the energy to fulltime lead as I used to back while I was in school. This is the main reason I didn't want to lead, and I had asked AG for a role to sit back and more or less do nothing.

The next few blurbs are probably more relevant for an OSI thread.

I agree with you that there shouldn't be any credibility to blindly follow someone. I offered advice for coordinating night actions; some roles are more important than others.

The problem with this that I realized after starting the game is that this inactivity is pitiful and I think a big portion of it is that villagers aren't as invested into this anymore because there is less power given to the individual players that they feel, which the traditional village game does not follow. I think the typical village leader system is poor design for a game because it takes the decision-making out of the hands of the players and into an arbitrarily-defined subset of players to come up with most of the decisions, when in a game, decision-making should be up to the players themselves. We do this out of fear of mafia knowing more about people's roles and results to base them out of since that is the advantage that mafia has over village.

It's not a typical style of village leadership because afaik nobody's done this since before I started mafia. Why? I don't know, but I think that with the revitalization effort on Circus, it's a good idea to keep the players themselves motivated and interested to continue playing since it seems that lately if you're not a BIG game, you're going to struggle w/activity. I saw this game falling into that trap, which is why I just came up with something to get other people to post reads on. The downside to this is that this is likely going to be based off of a limited scope of results and there's not much to go about it, but I want people to post more so that they can give more and have more of a stake in this game rather than a "hey you won". Give people something to actually do outside of actions to get them interested itg (think something like LotR mafia, though it was forced during days to be NOC).

End OSI blurb.

The only reason to ask for targets and results was to catch people in lies for later on, which imo is a bigger indication that someone is more likely to be mafia. I revealed mine in thread publicly D1 and was duped about it, though I believe that on N1, it is more likely for a safeguard likely not allied with town to target a potential teammate which is why I am, though this may be sketch, I believe it is less sketch due to resource constraints.

I voiced opposition to Snype, I warned people that he's nowhere close to clean. He found that "suspicious" and now look where we are?

I apologize for not responding to your post to my post, more of laziness and distracted by life, but the vibe I got from the second post was that you were trying to glean information more than you did on the first post. I don't do NOC much, but that is the instinct read that I got from the second post off of you.

I was also frozen which is theoretically a scum ability but then "Ice wizards" so that's not the best argument. Take that as you will.

Don't know what the fuck zorbees was doing with this sham leadership but I guess he was trying to take a back seat. Prob got namekilled which sucks but what can you do. Think about what you are doing when you lynch me. If you're an ice wizard, you probably don't want to get rid of me because when you break off you NEED to kill the mafia lynchpin to stand any chance of winning. GL taking out the mafia on your own. Fire wizards, think hard about if you want to lose me today.

It's okay if you think I'm more likely to bad. I'm just asking all of you to think about it a little harder than "SNYPE said so and he's VILLAGE LEADER so he can't lie." Wrong.

Agree with you on sentiments in 3rd para to ask village to think about this for the reasons I stated in the OSI blurb. As for the 2nd one, I have no clue as to why zorbs did nothing. Both twin and I wanted someone else to lead initially, but nobody stepped up to do it, so I did. I do interpret this part of the post as the generic "I'm important so don't lynch me! I'm too important for village!" This is a polarizing argument imo, and from my perspective at least, you are not a Wizard. Don't take my perspective to be gospel though. Vote jalmont if you believe that it is in our best interest to lynch him. Vote for anyone else if you believe otherwise.

Since jalmont accuses me of lying and my lynch yesterday was wrong, I suppose I should defend myself. I understand that my intuition on Haruno was likely wrong and I've provided my rationale as to why I still believe that jalmont is the better target though he was still targeted through Haruno, and I am taking Ditto's open transparency as an indication that he may be actually clean, which is why I am using his result. If anyone else targeted jalmont, please speak up now to confirm that jalmont actually had the billy goats. That being said, I can confirm that I did tell a now-cleaned villager that I would be targeting shubaka as there is no reason for mafia to leave him up, so as watcher there is nobody better to target than someone expected to die. I have also claimed my role to others as well that I believed were likely-clean prior to publicly claiming so they can hold me accountable to my result and pubclaim.

 

[JALMONT]

Even if you are actually a hooker, there isn't anything to indicate that you are not another role as well. The fact still remains that my watcher result exists. There is nobody else that could have targeted shubaka last night for a kill, so by process of elimination it has to be you, from at least my perspective, and now that we have lost a lynchpin, it is more imperative that we need to find a mafia and lynch them. jalmont is the prime candidate which is why you are in my sights. I did not target you, I targeted shubaka with watcher since he is the obvious candidate to die according to his BG claim. I do not know if jalmont has targeted anyone else, I only know he is the only person that targeted Shubaka.

As far as why I feel the billy goat mention is important: I have not received any claim about it, which makes me more likely to believe that this safeguard is mafia, a conclusion that I made when I asked the other people that have been gathering claims have not received. I believe that by N1, due to the constraints in resource quantity, mafia are better to use safeguard on a mafia rather than a village. Given that I know that you are the only person that targeted shubaka last night, I believe that it is likely that you have another role on you in addition to hooker.

And the chances of you bullshitting and lying is the same as the odds of me lying. Exactly the same.

Your conclusion regarding the safeguard makes zero sense. You think/thought the safeguard was mafia. Haruno wasn't mafia. "By N1" is a completely arbitrary night that you've picked that just isn't true. Why not by N2? Why not n0 only, since you know, you can use a safeguard to block BGs for the most part depending on priority (and there's no reason not to believe that wouldn't work).

My leadership started because I honestly expected someone else to, like literally everyone else in this game. twin is the only other person who is like "holy shit is anyone going to lead?" This argument would go for anyone who claimed and is not specific to me personally. Personally, I accept full blame on the lack of communication with Haruno because I was busy with other shit and wanted to play with other stuff I thought was fun rather than go through the honestly negative aspect of leading, which is dealing w/other people's bullshit. Yeah, that was lazy of me. I didn't even know Haruno was afk for that weekend because I just looked at playerlist and randed. I'm sorry for that and I take full responsibility for not following up with Haruno but it was instinct at that point that drove me to lynch Haruno because of an odd safeguard N0, which is why I went forward with that lynch.

I had a time-sensitive lot of work in TFP Article that I was asked to GP through along with others, so that took a bit of priority, but other than that, I have other things as well and work is taxing that I don't have the energy to fulltime lead as I used to back while I was in school. This is the main reason I didn't want to lead, and I had asked AG for a role to sit back and more or less do nothing.

More irrelevant excuses. None of this is a reason why anyone should trust or follow you. You haven't done a single thing yet that should make anyone believe you are a villager except 1. mislynch a villager based on laziness 2. fail to claim your original role (which if people notice, is usually a thing that trustworthy people do!).

non game crap

The next few blurbs are probably more relevant for an OSI thread.

I agree with you that there shouldn't be any credibility to blindly follow someone. I offered advice for coordinating night actions; some roles are more important than others.

The problem with this that I realized after starting the game is that this inactivity is pitiful and I think a big portion of it is that villagers aren't as invested into this anymore because there is less power given to the individual players that they feel, which the traditional village game does not follow. I think the typical village leader system is poor design for a game because it takes the decision-making out of the hands of the players and into an arbitrarily-defined subset of players to come up with most of the decisions, when in a game, decision-making should be up to the players themselves. We do this out of fear of mafia knowing more about people's roles and results to base them out of since that is the advantage that mafia has over village.

It's not a typical style of village leadership because afaik nobody's done this since before I started mafia. Why? I don't know, but I think that with the revitalization effort on Circus, it's a good idea to keep the players themselves motivated and interested to continue playing since it seems that lately if you're not a BIG game, you're going to struggle w/activity. I saw this game falling into that trap, which is why I just came up with something to get other people to post reads on. The downside to this is that this is likely going to be based off of a limited scope of results and there's not much to go about it, but I want people to post more so that they can give more and have more of a stake in this game rather than a "hey you won". Give people something to actually do outside of actions to get them interested itg (think something like LotR mafia, though it was forced during days to be NOC).

None of the is relevant to the game and it really isn't even relevant to your situation. I'm not concerned about whether it's a typical style of village leadership. That doesn't matter. What matters is the fact that there is still no reason to claim to you and there's especially no reason to follow you blindly (which it seems like people aren't doing which is good). You're making it sound like you asking people to post is some altruistic action you're taking when it's not. No legitimate leader would do that because they know that's not how things work/that's not how you win.

End OSI blurb.

Agree with you on sentiments in 3rd para to ask village to think about this for the reasons I stated in the OSI blurb. As for the 2nd one, I have no clue as to why zorbs did nothing. Both twin and I wanted someone else to lead initially, but nobody stepped up to do it, so I did. I do interpret this part of the post as the generic "I'm important so don't lynch me! I'm too important for village!" This is a polarizing argument imo, and from my perspective at least, you are not a Wizard. Don't take my perspective to be gospel though. Vote jalmont if you believe that it is in our best interest to lynch him. Vote for anyone else if you believe otherwise.

It's not polarizing though. I'm not saying I'm "too important" I'm saying that, if anything, I'm more important than you and if you understand the game, then you should realize this too. The only reason that I should be lynched is if you are absolutely convinced that I am scum. Which, you shouldn't be, since my word is worth as much as snype's.

 

[JALMONT]

Tagging the playerlist as a reminder for them to read the thread and come up with their own decisions. People who choose not to vote I will assume are mafia.

Blazade
THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
Flyhn
askaninjask
Nomark
King_
acidphoenix
rssp1
Tymano
penguin344
Walrein
Whydon
Mithril
arugalove
Aubisio

Also Steven Snype I would really like to hear exactly who can corroborate your story about being watcher before you claim. Will make it much easier to hunt down your scumbuddies ;]

 

[Blazade]

Jalmont no one can corroborate his story because he got SGed N0, which I have to admit is convenient.

I don't really know what to do here because I expect this kind of defense from Jalmont in any case.

I don't really think we have the evidence to turn on Snype, but I don't have a lot of confidence either. I'm not really sure why Jalmont didn't decide to lead in the first place either considering his hooker role was at least provable. Eithe mislynch is bad and we have no evidence

 

[Nomark]

Do we know who got sged last night? It could help make this crystal clear.

 

[Thetwinmasters]

Is there really a world where the mafia fake leading outs himself on d2 instead of using vague lynch reasons to mislynch or lynch other mafia to keep control of the village?

 

[JALMONT]

I don't think hooker is a good role to lead with (i mean you can look at how apprehensive i was in yeti's game when AG claimed it). I was also frozen, which makes communication difficult.

You have no evidence to turn on Snype sure, but you have to ask yourself, is the "evidence" offered by Snype truly trustworthy? It shouldn't be.

Hooker > watcher but if you want to think otherwise go ahead.

 

[JALMONT]

Do we know who got sged last night? It could help make this crystal clear.

Apparently me, which is why ditto was unable to target me.

If no one has claimed safeguard, why wasn't this safeguard used on the kill target?? Hello? Doesn't it seem convenient that the mafia would decide to safeguard me? Why wouldn't I put the safeguard on the kill target lmao?

 

[Blazade]

I don't think hooker is a good role to lead with (i mean you can look at how apprehensive i was in yeti's game when AG claimed it). I was also frozen, which makes communication difficult.

You have no evidence to turn on Snype sure, but you have to ask yourself, is the "evidence" offered by Snype truly trustworthy? It shouldn't be.

Hooker > watcher but if you want to think otherwise go ahead.

Hooker was like the only provable role in that game lol and it tends to be provable in general, even if it's towniness is not guaranteed. Almost no role is guaranteed to be town anymore. All that aside, with Snype being the only other option you might have stepped up.

Maybe this is a town SG and it makes sense that an SG would be on Jalmont to keep him from getting frozen again or something. But Snype's pressure made it seem like they'd be incriminated so maybe they didn't come forward? Maybe it's a mafia SG and they wanted to make sure the killer wasn't hooked

Man I don't know. I've got no real basis to choose so I don't think I should change my vote