ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[Samqian]

nomming xern for S+

yall may think that im crazy but xern is like broken you never know which set to expect,, u basically have to kill one mon and it sweeps the rest of the team and sure its not on every team but its consistent as fuck and the scarf set is like the only reliable check to darkrai besides klefki and it has great matchup vs offense,, feel free to disagree but this is my opinion

e. i think klefki should move down a bit too because it attracts so much bait (pdon, ho oh, arceus ground, lando, ogre etc)

 

[oversway]

definitely agree with klefki moving down, yeah you can spikestack and throw toxics around but like sam said there are too many things that can switch in for free on it which klefki can't really damage. it can be trapped by gengar fairly easily since with the type of builds klefki usually finds itself on having a paralyzed gar is worth taking out the keys. even it's usefulness as a xern check has decreased due to the increase in popularity of stuff like resttalk and block, and against stall it's just a liability. in fact against any magic bounce build almost every turn early-mid game klefki is in is a prediction, if you get it right then you might get 30% off but play roughing a ho-oh or pdon just wastes a ton of momentum. not to mention, klefki is way easier to come in on than say diancie.

as for xern I'm a bit conflicted on this, 50/50s late game trying to predict either scarf or geo xern can definitely decide games but in most cases unless you're running cteam level coverage xern can be dealt with fairly easily. most uber teams are built primary with xern in mind, so there are usually at least two solid checks. overall I don't think xern deserves s+ since pdon is still alot more versatile and can grab much more momentum in a turn than xern can; it's basically limited to setting up, attacking, or healing, which unless you really need the health or a mon unstatus'd really kills momentum.

 

[Funbot28]

Ehh, when GeoXern was its only popular set back in he beginning of ORAS, I definitely wouldn't consider Xerneas to be Pdon level good. However, the augmented usage of various other powerful sets such as Scarf, Specs, Rest Calm Mind, Life Orb Mixed, etc definitely make Xerneas more versatile than it once was. I can agree that it is the most restricting mon when it comes to team building as every team still needs roughly 2-3 checks/counters to it due to how volatile it is. However the question is that is this volatility on the same level as Primal Groudon's. I can see a case where it can be due to scouting what Xerneas set ur opponent is running being so difficult and very detrimental if predicted wrong, although Primal Groudon's has a ubiquity of amazing sets and is nigh splash able on every Ubers team atm. It's an interesting case, as we should ask ourselves what is the difference between S+ and S viability. I am torn and honestly be fine it moves up or stays tbh.

 

[hyw]

The only Pokémon worthy of sharing Primal Groudon's placement in S+ would be Arceus, if and only if all Arceus forms were counted as the same species, for one simple reason: every competent ORAS Ubers team consists of two mandatory components in Primal Groudon and an Arceus form. If your team lacks either a Primal Groudon or an Arceus form, there's a 100% chance your team is shit. An Arceus form is mandatory on every team in all generations of Ubers except for XY and the introduction of Primal Groudon simply brings about one more Pokémon you're forced to add to every team, regardless of archetype. This obligatory presence that Primal Groudon upholds upon the team-building process is what distinguishes it as a species in the metagame from every other, and said distinction should be reinforced in clarity by its placement in a wholly separate subranking above all else; Xerneas, nor any other powerhouse, aren't exceptions. To speak more fundamentally, nothing should be placed in S+ other than Primal Groudon itself.

I disagree with Klefki dropping, too. It's one of the greatest checks to the two Dark-type threats in the tier, a huge asset to teams lacking countermeasures to them. This is not to mention it's one of the most dependent checks to Xerneas, can emergency check a myriad of offensive threats such as Mega Salamence and Deoxys-Attack thanks to Prankster Thunder Wave, and holds a Toxic immunity to switch into defensive Pokémon that rely on this status condition whilst wielding a support move in Spikes to maintain offensive pressure of its own. Not being bait to Mega Gengar as a Steel-type should be considered a strength rather than liability and it's versatile in that it can learn Healing Block or Dazzling Gleam alongside some SpA investment to break Mega Sableye if necessary. Honestly, it's primarily thanks to Klefki, Arceus-Water, and Giratina-O that balance is viable in a metagame fast-paced to this extent, and this should be appropriately emphasized as is by its current ranking in the upper echelons of A rank, as well.

 

[oversway]

while it's true klefki is a great dark type switchin most of the time it barely functions alone to check one of them, let alone two. checking darkrai requires you have a sleep absorber, while with only passive recovery it becomes difficult to switch into Knock Off or Heat Wave Yveltal more than once. klefki does cripple setup mence but it's hardly a check, and as double edge/facade becomes more common mence sees less use as a sweeper and more of a early-mid game wallbreaker. my point was that klefki is gengar bait, since usually having gengar crippled isn't a bad trade off for getting rid of the keys, especially for offensive teams playing against balance. klefki does have a strong niche as a status spread and spikestacker, but it just doesn't perform this role as well as it did to justify it staying.

 

[orch]

Keys is fine where it is at atm imo. It's just that it's not as powerful as it used to be, but it is still as useful.

I'd like to see wobbuffet to jump between deo-a and darkrai. It's just so good. It guarantees chance for your pokemon to set up freely. I don't think I need to explain implications for that, do I? Wobbuffet is viable on builds ranging from balance to offense. Wobbuffet is strongest vs balance and very good vs offense as reliable mewtwo/xern checks. It also can be used as clutch deo-a check but it's not reliable.

I have not found a stronger strat than abusing wobb to win games yet.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-430200471

Wouldve won that 1 if wobbuffet didn't get full paralyzed.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-418870266

Wobbuffet basically guaranteed the win for me.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-432740933

Wobb made the win incredibly easy

 

[Cynara]

Keys is fine where it is at atm imo. It's just that it's not as powerful as it used to be, but it is still as useful.

I'd like to see wobbuffet to jump between deo-a and darkrai. It's just so good. It guarantees chance for your pokemon to set up freely. I don't think I need to explain implications for that, do I? Wobbuffet is viable on builds ranging from balance to offense. Wobbuffet is strongest vs balance and very good vs offense as reliable mewtwo/xern checks. It also can be used as clutch deo-a check but it's not reliable.

I have not found a stronger strat than abusing wobb to win games yet.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-430200471

Wouldve won that 1 if wobbuffet didn't get full paralyzed.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-418870266

Wobbuffet basically guaranteed the win for me.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-432740933

Wobb made the win incredibly easy

Those are decent examples of Wobuffett working in the tier and you made valid points for it rising a rank, but I think A/A+ is stretching it quite a bit in terms of how viable it is, I would be more in favour in B+ since its definitely a pokemon that fits more niche builds, it and it has been improving with current metagame trends, the decline of stall builds and Mega Sableye being less of a presence also helps it out a great deal.

 

[Lacus Clyne]

Shuckle needs to be ranked (C?).

Mega Lucario: B -> B+
Because of the more common Adamant E-Killer Mega Lucario became a really huge threat. It works well in Webs but is also able to get some good match ups alone. The Deoxys-A Dialga HO is the best example. It is able to force switches and capitalize on that by setting up a Swords Dance. Even Salamence can't check it after Rocks and a +1 in Atk. Mega Lucario needs a lot of team support in most cases though, hence I think B+ is fine.

+1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Iron Tail vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 282-334 (74 - 87.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[shrang]

I'd personally put Mega Lucario a bit higher than that tbh. I find Mega Luc incredibly splashable for many offense teams. Not only can it wallbreak and check the relatively increasing amount of Adamant Ekillers, but also checks GeoXern to an extent which is always good.

 

[Hack]

Mluc sucks

It's a worthless Ekiller check in practice because when it all boils down to it you can't rely on it. This means you need dedicate another slot to that job, which results in an overall weaker build. Compare that to Mence or Gar etc... Every big of utility it has vs Ekiller is a bonus. At 1760 stats there is no notable lack of Jolly natures, nor is it trendy to run Adamant. If anything Jolly usage has gone up somewhat. In tournament play I haven't really found stats but I never thought it was worth running anything else than Jolly most of the time.

Lucario isn't splashable, in fact there are ridiculously few offensive teams that would actually want it over Mence or Gar. It won't necessarily break teams better than other offensive mons. If we pretend stall is viable, as its often seen as its best match-up, even those teams have about 4 checks (Pdon, Sab, Waterceus, Lugia).

For being a steel type, Lucario has horrible utility when it comes to typical "steel-type jobs" such as Xern/Latios checking. BP utility vs Xern is kinda cute but you could gotten more utility in terms of Xern checking by using literally any other steel.

 

[orch]

MLuc is an excellent CT pokemon to punish your opponent for spamming adamant ekiller, but beyond that, it's only good for sticky or wobb teams.

I think that you're underselling luc's usefulness vs offense. It's great vs Dialga/Deo-A teams due to priority+spammable CC. But beyond that, Lucario is pretty bleak.

 

[MSC Knightmare]

I'd like to nominate Mandibuzz from Unranked> D

On the surface, this thing might seem like a washed up version of Yveltal. And to an extent, you wouldn't be wrong to say this, Yveltal can do nearly everything that Mandibuzz can do better, except for 1 thing. Mandibuzz has access to Defog, whereas Yveltal does not. Unlike fellow Defog brethren in Lati@s, Giratina(-O), and some support forms of Arceus, Mandibuzz fits perfectly onto bulky/stall teams and has about everything they could want. It has reliable recovery in Roost, it can deter some setup sweepers lacking Rest/Refresh with Toxic, and my favorite part, is that it can check prominent Pokemon like E Killer Arceus, P-Don, and Mega Mence. Unlike Yveltal, though, Mandibuzz can check the aforementioned threats (provided E Killer isn't running Stone Edge) in addition to being able to check other threats, like Mega Mewtwo Y, Lugia, and Giratina-O since it can viably run a mixed bulk set. I've provided some calcs and replays below.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-437512521

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-400471869 (This one is old but still relevant)

To highlight what it can do to combat offense:

+2 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 252-297 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Don't want to setup Swords Dance right in this thing's face)

+1 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 220-261 (62.6 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This right after it sets up Dragon Dance)

0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 350-414 (99.1 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 252-296 (66.1 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 500-590 (131.2 - 154.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gengar: 156-186 (59.7 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now to highlight what it can do on the defensive end. This is assuming I have 248 EVs into HP, 136 EVs into defense, and 124 into Spec D

+2 252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Force vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 170-201 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (That's after a Swords Dance boost, meaning Mandibuzz can easily switch into this and OHKO it with Foul Play effortlessly)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 246-290 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Mandibuzz: 246-290 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

244+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Mandibuzz: 241-285 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Does not factor the Spec A drop. The 2nd one won't KO without having had prior damage on me first, meaning I can simply get a read on it, Roost off the damage, and wall this thing to hell and back, or at the very least, force a switch and punish the switch in with Toxic)

248+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 93-110 (21.9 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (Can easily switch into this with no fear whatsoever)

252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, as deterrent to setup sweepers and frail Pokemon, I understand that Mandibuzz is unfortunately outclassed by Yveltal. However, having access to Defog gives Mandibuzz slightly more utility than Yveltal does, and makes it a better fit on stall teams than Yveltal. Ii mean, at the very least, Mandibuzz has got to be more viable than useless Reshiram, Fire/Psychic Arceus, and Deoxys-N. Come on now. I think the information I've provided can attest to at least that.

 

[sunny004]

Don't know which mod(s) manage the OP but I think it may be prudent to add a small description of how each tiering should be interpreted (ex: S-Ranks need little to no team support to function effectively, while B or C ranked Pokemon rely somewhat on teammates to perform effectively on a team) This would inform newer players who haven't had any previous experience with viability ranking threads about how they should interpret a Pokemon's ranking on the list.

Thanks for hearing my two cents I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[shrang]

I swear to God this is like the 3rd or 4th time Mandibuzz has been nominated. It's been rejected every time, so what makes you think it's any different now than it was before? Before even arguing how good or bad Mandibuzz is, if you look at the D rank, every Pokemon in D rank are Ubers that are crappy but need a ranking regardless simply by the fact that they are Ubers. D rank is for "unviable Pokemon", so why are you nominating a Pokemon that's unviable for the viability thread? What a waste of time.

As for Mandibuzz vs Yveltal, there is really no point in arguing this. Firstly, bulky Yveltal is crappy anyway, so there's little point trying to use a separate and (very) arguably worse Pokemon to try and fill its spot. Secondly, as a Defogger, Mandibuzz's competition is coming from support Arceus formes, which has a lot more utility than it. Basically, Mandibuzz is unviable therefore there's no reason to put it on here.

Can we blacklist this thing from being nominated again please - this isn't the first time.

 

[TheGreatKoala]

I'd like to nominate Mandibuzz from Unranked> D

On the surface, this thing might seem like a washed up version of Yveltal. And to an extent, you wouldn't be wrong to say this, Yveltal can do nearly everything that Mandibuzz can do better, except for 1 thing. Mandibuzz has access to Defog, whereas Yveltal does not. Unlike fellow Defog brethren in Lati@s, Giratina(-O), and some support forms of Arceus, Mandibuzz fits perfectly onto bulky/stall teams and has about everything they could want. It has reliable recovery in Roost, it can deter some setup sweepers lacking Rest/Refresh with Toxic, and my favorite part, is that it can check prominent Pokemon like E Killer Arceus, P-Don, and Mega Mence. Unlike Yveltal, though, Mandibuzz can check the aforementioned threats (provided E Killer isn't running Stone Edge) in addition to being able to check other threats, like Mega Mewtwo Y, Lugia, and Giratina-O since it can viably run a mixed bulk set. I've provided some calcs and replays below.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-437512521

That replay shows just how bad your opponent used Salamence. He should have killed Mandibuzz when he had the chance rather than ignoring the obvious foul play usage.

Shrang is right, it's useless

 

[MSC Knightmare]

Real quick, as someone who is relatively knew to these forums, can we talk about the concept of blacklisting real quick?

I get that we don't want to talk about irrelevant things (like the viability of Klefki in OU compared to Ubers since this isn't an OU thread) but why would we want to "ban" legitimate, intelligent discussion if it's relevant? Like, I get that freedom of speech is obviously not a thing in an online forum, but in a forum dedicated to discussion, it would seem to me that 'blacklisting' is counterproductive to the concept of a discussion forum.

Anyway, back to the matter at hand, I now see what you mean in that D Tier is for Ubers who have to be ranked by virtue of the fact that they're Ubers. Okay, fair enough, in that case, I nominate Mandibuzz for C Rank. For the same reasons listed above, I believe being a bulky Defogger who can reliably perform its job is, albeit small, enough of a niche to at least be considered viable in this tier. Saying it's outclassed by certain support Arceus forms is fair, but then really, why do we have Mega Gyarados and Clefable ranked that high? They both have small niches, yes, so I understand why they are ranked, but why do we reject the notion of having Mandibuzz ranked, yet those 2 are there? They are not Ubers, and thus don't follow the "They're Ubers and must be ranked" mindset. Mandibuzz has a small, yet outclassed niche of being able to come in multiple times and Defog away entry hazards and annoy sweepers and physically frail Pokemon. Clefable has a small, yet outclassed niche of being able to beat some support Arceus forms and "check" Xerneas. And Mega Gyarados..... I guess, can beat up on stall teams?

 

[Josh]

Mandibuzz has a small, yet outclassed niche

You answered your own post buddy

 

[MSC Knightmare]

Okay, if we're going to disregard Mandibuzz, then we should also disregard Clefable and Mega Gyarados. They can't do anything something else can't do better, and Mega Gyarados comes packed with a lovely opportunity cost. If anything, they are no more viable than Mandibuzz is.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

The thing is, Mega Gyarados has Mold Breaker, which has a ton of utility against Multiscale Lugia, and Dark is pretty good offensively, due to relevant Psychic-types such as Mewtwo and Lugia, as well as Ghost-types like Ghost Arceus and Giratina-O. It can also bypass Magic Bounce and Taunt Mega Sableye. which gives M-Gyara a good niche.

 

[MSC Knightmare]

So, again, it's good against stall? Because it isn't the only thing with access to decent Dark STAB moves (Darkrai, Yveltal, Darkceus come to mind, and only Darkceus has a notable opportunity cost). Plenty of Pokemon are capable of overwhelming M Diancie and M Sableye, meaning that M Gyara's niche there isn't actually a niche. Again, I fail to see why this thing is ranked. It's a good Pokemon, sure, but there is plenty that can do its job better than it can, and need I bring up the opportunity cost again?

 

[shrang]

I get that we don't want to talk about irrelevant things (like the viability of Klefki in OU compared to Ubers since this isn't an OU thread) but why would we want to "ban" legitimate, intelligent discussion if it's relevant? Like, I get that freedom of speech is obviously not a thing in an online forum, but in a forum dedicated to discussion, it would seem to me that 'blacklisting' is counterproductive to the concept of a discussion forum.

The problem is that this whole discussion of Mandibuzz isn't legitimate and relevant. If this is the first time that it's been brought up, blacklisting it for nomination wouldn't be considered. However, like I've mentioned, this is like the 3rd or 4th time Mandibuzz has been brought up already, and nothing new has been brought up. It's not "intelligent" nor a "discussion" if people are just regurgitating the same drivel in hopes that it would get nominated again without adding anything new. It's more like ignorance.

Clefable has a small, yet outclassed niche of being able to beat some support Arceus forms and "check" Xerneas.

Outclassed by what?

And Mega Gyarados..... I guess, can beat up on stall teams?

That's fine, if you think a Pokemon is not viable you can bring it up and nominate it for being unranked. It doesn't change that Mandibuzz is not viable and therefore doesn't need to be ranked.

 

[MSC Knightmare]

Okay. Alright, I'll come back to Mandibuzz another day. I'd like to suggest Mega Gyarados become unranked. It's really great that it beat up on stall. Hitting Lugia through Multiscale, being able to Taunt M Sableye, and, I guess, having the ability to bypass through Sturdy is cool, even though it doesn't possess the tools to OHKO Skarmory without a massive amount of DD boosts that it'd be damned to find the opportunity to set up. My problems with this thing lie in the fact that stall is basically nonexistent in Ubers. Mega Gyarados' ability does well against stall, but against mons like P Don, Arceus, P Ogre, Mewtwo, etc, what can M Gyara do? Having the ability to hit Lati@s with Earthquake isn't really too big a deal since M Gyara will still lose to it anyway. I mean, maybe it can check P Don using Intimidate, but Mega Salamence can do that too and Mega Salamence has a consistently useful ability in Aerilate, reliable recovery, and is faster off the bat than M Gyara is, meaning that it will always be able to outspeed the threats I just mentioned, with the exception of Mewtwo. In short, why should I use M Gyara over M Mence or M Gar? Opportunity cost is another reason I believe M Gyara should go unranked. By using it, you cannot use M Mence, M Gar, MM2, etc.

 

[Jhonx~]

Okay. Alright, I'll come back to Mandibuzz another day. I'd like to suggest Mega Gyarados become unranked. It's really great that it beat up on stall. Hitting Lugia through Multiscale, being able to Taunt M Sableye, and, I guess, having the ability to bypass through Sturdy is cool, even though it doesn't possess the tools to OHKO Skarmory without a massive amount of DD boosts that it'd be damned to find the opportunity to set up. My problems with this thing lie in the fact that stall is basically nonexistent in Ubers. Mega Gyarados' ability does well against stall, but against mons like P Don, Arceus, P Ogre, Mewtwo, etc, what can M Gyara do? Having the ability to hit Lati@s with Earthquake isn't really too big a deal since M Gyara will still lose to it anyway. I mean, maybe it can check P Don using Intimidate, but Mega Salamence can do that too and Mega Salamence has a consistently useful ability in Aerilate, reliable recovery, and is faster off the bat than M Gyara is, meaning that it will always be able to outspeed the threats I just mentioned, with the exception of Mewtwo. In short, why should I use M Gyara over M Mence or M Gar? Opportunity cost is another reason I believe M Gyara should go unranked. By using it, you cannot use M Mence, M Gar, MM2, etc.

Mandibuzz isn't good, because Yveltal do the same job even better, also for Mega Gyarados its good, but cant do the same as Mega Salamence and much peoples uses M-Salamence to lure stall with Facade or another move, Mega Gengar is the best Stallbreaker by far, because can Trap threats to Offense, destroy 2-3 mons of a stall team using perish song, etc.

I think Mega Gyarados needs to be Unranked, because Mega Gyarados can sweep some teams thanks to a Dragon Dance + Taunt, but its hard to do a Dragon Dance without get an opposing status / set up, and the only viable set its Dragon Dance, Earthquake, Taunt, Crunch, but still works vs lot of bulky teams, like Sand Balance, Stall, or Semi Stall, Would nominate it to be D, but Gyarados can´t break HO.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

D rank is for unviable Ubers, Pokemon that have to be ranked because they are banned to Ubers, but are unviable in the format. So I think the bottom of C- is right for Mega Gyarados.

 

[hyw]

Mega Gyarados is mostly outclassed by Mega Salamence as a Mega form Dragon Dance-sweeper, but possesses the niche of 6-0'ing stall with its unique access to Mold Breaker and Taunt.

Mandibuzz is completely outclassed by Yveltal, experiencing inferiority in both stats and movepool whilst possessing no redeemable qualities.

GG