ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread V6

More applause to Pearl hooray! This thread and all of your other threads are p great and you seem to really care about these threads and the community as a whole, and echoing off Panther you and all the people here and on PS make this community so nice and fun.

Addressing panthers post,
While it's of course true that Defog can't be blocked, I don't really see how it is better when we're looking at Tentacruel. This is because Tentacruel has all the tools in its disposal to dispose any Pokemon in the tier that can block rapid spin (Sableye, Jellicent, Doublade) bar the uncommon Hoopa (you can run Knock Off though). So yea, it can be blocked, but if you have all the tools you need to get past the things that block a spin, how is that a concern?
While it has the tools to get rid of any spinblockers, at the same time you're using precious moveslots. On the defensive set this means giving up your utility of toxic spikes or haze in favor or toxic/knock off or what have you. Empoleon doesn't need to carry any of these (though yes some do carry toxic) and can carry stealth rocks and roar, and on offensive you're forced to get rid of ice beam and lose to Hydreigon Haxorus and Roserade.

Do you have any specific examples of this? The whole point of running Hydro Pump on an offensive set is to ensure OHKOs on Pokemon that are usually faster and thus inclined to stay in: Nidoking, Krookodile and Mamoswine.

252 SpA Tentacruel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 368-434 (121.4 - 143.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tentacruel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 348-410 (105.1 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tentacruel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 392-464 (108.5 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


From the way I see it, the offensive set nets all the OHKOs that it needs to (as you only run it to 'lure' these threats). What OHKOs are missing here? If you could provide some examples I'd appreciate it.
A couple big ones,

252 SpA Tentacruel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 330-390 (88.9 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (and with my luck you never get the roll :'[ )

252 SpA Tentacruel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 270-320 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Tentacruel Hydro Pump vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 300-354 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tentacruel Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Celebi: 212-252 (62.1 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(This is just a side note, as Celebi can nasty plot up, win the speed tie and kill you next turn with Psychic)

In addition to all of this, on offensive teams this offensive Tentacruel set still gets set up on by alot of stuff in the metagame, like Gyara, BU conk, M-pert, and Toxicroak, all of which give offense the business after a boost, and in general Tentacruel gives up alot of momentum for offense by not pressuring walls at all. While I'm aware its supposed to be a lure, its not exactly all that surprising to see an offensive Tentacruel nowadays seeing as its literally a standard set on the Dex, and all of these drawbacks make it a little harder to justify on a team vs some other offensive hazard removers like M-Blastoise, Offensive Empoleon, or v-switch Forretress.

On Aero to S I think its a pretty hard decision, though I think the argument for is going to get much tougher with more Klefki in the tier, seeing as the keys hard wall Aero with magnet rise and then thunder wave it making it essentially useless. Its a really great poke, and its definitely a defining mon in the tier, but on the one hand the lack of immediate power hurts it somewhat, as it can't break through most defensive walls very well and can't even Ohko the things it checks like Celebi or Conkeldurr thanks to its Aerial Ace and often times requires the use of stone edge to make game winning plays, and on the other hand it puts in so much work vs offense by itself and the Pursuit and Hone Claws sets are amazing, with pursuit M-Aero being one of the go-to pursuit trappers and one of the best, and Hone Claws Aero being able to put in work vs more bulky teams and clean incredibly easy after one boost. Its a really tough call, though I believe that especially with klefki here to stay, staying in tier A1 suits it a little better than S.

Finally on Klefki, I could see this mon having a solid home in A2, since its a really fantastic poke and acts as an emergency check to sweepers, the best spiker in the tier, a good hydrei check, and a decent dual screens user. Klef is a really good mon but its mediocre bulk is what i think will hold it back from A1, as it really struggles with offensive ground types not named Krookodile, since it can magnet rise but it cant take other stab hits or coverage moves and is whittled pretty easily, like scald from Swamp, waterfall from m-Swamp, Fire Blast from the nidos, and vs slower attackers that don't mind a twave like Conk or Snorlax.

As a side note, I've been experimenting with a Heracross and Klefki build and its amazing, with tox orb hera steamrolling literally everything slower than it after an SD and klefki thunder waving everything faster than it. With an incredibly reliable source of speed control we may see somewhat slower offensive threats like SD Haxorus, Kyurem, or Hera become much more viable towards the end of gen 6, which would be pretty neat. Thanks for reading n_n
 
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I'm nominating Diancie to move from B- to B+.

Simply put, Diancie is way better than the other options in B-. It can switch into both Hydreigon (especially with Klefki making Fire-type coverage appealing on Hydreigon sets) and Entei, set up Stealth Rock and function as a cleric. As someone who doesn't leave home without Sylveon very often I was sceptical about this thing at first, but it's actually really useful for particular builds. For example, it partners Gyarados really well as you won't have to run another Water-type to switch into Entei. Diancie is one of the few switch-ins to Life Orb Tornadus, as well. It also partners Alomomola well as you won't need Sylveon to switch into Hydreigon, while they keep each other healthy through Wish and Heal Bell support.

Seriously, if you haven't given this thing a try yet I highly recommend you to do so. It offers delightful role compression and opens up available slots for things you otherwise wouldn't have been able to fit on your team. Be sure to keep Conkeldurr in mind when building with this thing, since Diancie doesn't quite check it like Sylveon does. Diancie + Crobat could form a nice hazards + hazards control core that also handles Conkeldurr, for what it's worth. ; )
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
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I haven't been with Smogon very long, but that's not to say that it hasn't been amazing thanks to the UU community. Everyone that's contributed has been amazing, and huge shoutout to Pearl, Dodmen and R0ady for doing great jobs managing these last couple VR threads! Everyone appreciates (or appreciated) it so much, you guys, and of course thanks to the council.

As grateful as I am for our wonderful staff, there are a few things about this viability thread that I'd like to address, especially considering this next update could be the last *sad face*. Particularly, I'm going to talk about some mons that I think will look out of place in their current rank if never moved either for being a step ahead of other stuff in the rank or being worse.

Rises I think should happen:

Escavalier, Mega Abomasnow, Florges and Whimsicott all must rise to A5.

I made cases for all four of these pokes to move up in my last post on this thread, but I really think that it'd be a huge shame to see such great mons stay amongst things they're all truly better and more consistent than, like Gligar and Toxicroak. Escav and Mega Aboma supporters are everywhere as of late, and it isn't hard to see why. Escavalier is literally a blanket check to about half of the stuff you'll see in common play, and is such an amazing teammate for pretty much everything in A5 or above thanks to its bulk and typing allowing it to switch into a plethora of different attacks feared by many (i.e. Sylveon Hyper Voice, anything from Celebi, many more) and really just knits teams together. It's an amazing anti-meta pokemon, sylveon partner, and gluemon on balance that's only fear is fire type attacks and it has no business staying in B+. Mega Abomasnow is undoubtedly one of the tier's best users of swords dance at the moment, thanks to soundproof before mega evolution, the ability to lure fires with earthquake, and the fact that it's not going to be stopped too easily if you're out of fire or fighting types. Florges is still a staple on balance thanks to its fantastic CM set and the ability to use wish and synthesis, and is just really being understated in B+ since it provides your team with both a reliable wincon and special attack sponge. Whimsicott has been hurt offensively by Sylveon and Celebi, but at the same rate brings so much more to the table than both the former and the latter. It can singlehandedly end a potential sweep, gain moment with an extremely fast u-turn, and provide its team with a plethora of different utility options, some being tailwind, leech seed, memento, encore, etc. Overall, the utility and role compression Whimsicott is able to provide your team with is more than enough to justify placement in A5, just as the other facts I've stated about Escavalier, Abomasnow and Florges are to get them to rise alongside it.

Mega Aerodactyl should rise to S
While I agree that Mega Aerodactyl doesn't influence the tier as much as Celebi, Hydreigon and Suicune, it is more than just a step ahead of its A1 brethren. Mega Aero is a lot more influential to the metagame than anything else in A1 in that it's more consistent with its sets and has a lot less opportunity cost, considering that it is arguably the tier's third hardest pokemon to check (next to Hydreigon and Celebi). Krookodile's viability is definitely a byproduct of Mega Aerodactyl being in the tier (to an extent), and it's definitely something if this big guy is considered to be the tier's only Mega Beedrill counter. Overall, I just feel that Mega Aerodactyl just provides its team with more offensive and defensive utility than anything else in A1 and is one of if not THE hardest mon in the tier to prepare for thanks to that monstrous speed.

Klefki to high A2/low A1
I wouldn't consider this to be a rise, rather a placement in general, though the point still stands that Klefki is already impacting the metagame. It's a fantastic blanket check to threats like Krookodile, Mega Aerodactyl, Sylveon, Celebi and many more, and can also crush the dreams of offense with prankster spikes and thunder wave, which alongside neutering a play style, allows it to fit onto said style extremely well. Overall, Klefki's utility options in dual screens, spikes, and priority status allow it to provide so much for its team that it'd be a crime seeing it anywhere lower than A2. Amazing utility mon already.

Alongside these rises, I think Machamp, Arcanine and Chandelure should all rise, though I've either elaborated on those pokemon already and/or don't feel as passionately about them as the above mentioned discussion topics.
Drops:

Froslass down to B
Froslass is probably the poke that's been hurt the most by Klefki's entry into the tier, since it's main niche as a spikes stacker for offense now faces competition from another support pokemon with better typing, bulk, and priority on their status moves. It was borderline B+ to begin with, but now feels like an inferior option in some cases given that Klefki is much more likely to get all 3 layers of spikes down and is bulky enough to switch into attacks for wish support and contain itself during a match. Don't get me wrong, Froslass is still a great pokemon, but Klefki can accomplish a similar role a lot more reliably while also providing for its team later on in a match, which is something that Froslass often has trouble with.

Doublade down to B+
This one may be a bit biased due to my love for Escavalier, but in my honest opinion there's no reason that this thing should be above Escav. It's swords dance set is very capable of fitting onto offense, but at times can struggle to threaten bulky offense and balance due to its limited coverage, susceptibility to status and no recovery. It's low spdef also doesn't allow it to tank hits on both sides like Escavalier can (though it does have better defense), and it's a really unreliable spinblocker and steel type tank given that offensive Tentacruel is so popular right now and it loses over half of its HP from Sylveon's specs hyper voice. It just seems to me that there are other steel types that can be put to more uses on your team within one set, and that Doublade also lost a really good partner in Salamence and hasn't fully recovered from its ban.

Donphan down to C-
I'm sorry to all those DonFANS out there (sorry couldn't resist), but this thing should never warrant a spot on your team. As a ground type nuke, it's hopelessly outclassed by Mamoswine and Krookodile and even Rhyperior, and it shouldn't be used as a spinner when Tentacruel and Forretress are both able to provide teams with better utility and defensive synergy (Donphan's weak to a lot of the same stuff as the pokes it spins for). It's honestly just an insult at this point to Rhyperior that it has to share a subrank with Donphan, since it at least has stab EdqeQuake and a better choice band set (which really isn't all too hard to accomplish).

If you made it all the way through these noms, thank you for reading! Again, it's really been a blast working with and interacting with everyone this gen, and I hope to see all of you in SuMo UU! Till next time, UU, and please consider these nominations! :)
 
252 SpA Tentacruel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 330-390 (88.9 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (and with my luck you never get the roll :'[ )

252 SpA Tentacruel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 270-320 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Tentacruel Hydro Pump vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 300-354 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tentacruel Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Celebi: 212-252 (62.1 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(This is just a side note, as Celebi can nasty plot up, win the speed tie and kill you next turn with Psychic)
Just a small note: adding SR to Entei/Aero/Queen calcs all turn them into OHKO's(Queen's is an ~20%).

As for Tenta in general, I think it's fine where it is. While it does a lot of things pretty well, it doesn't have anything it's really great at. It's a bulky water that isn't generally as bulky as you'd like it to be, nor does it have any recovery options; it has good offensive options, but its attack/special are a bit lacking, forcing you to rely on inaccurate moves like Hydro Pump; it has a bunch of great move options with things like Haze/TSpikes/Acid Spray/Knock Off/Rapid Spin, but you only have a few slots to utilize.
 
Nominating Togetic to go unranked

With all these fairy nominations like Florges/Whimsicott to A5 and Diancie to B+ (agree with all), it'd be hard for me not to mention Togetic. Nowadays, it honestly feels like Togetic has been on an uphill battle since Sylveon dropped, and doesn't warrant a teamslot enough to deserve even C-. It faces heavy competition as a cleric now that Sylveon is in the tier, as it can use leftovers and actually provide offensive presence thanks to Pixiliate. Togetic has also really been hurt by the recent drop of Klefki, since now it has another support/utility fairy to compete with that gets priority on their support moves and has a rocks resistance, among many other qualities over this thing. Lastly, Togetic is just a really ironic defensive pokemon in that it has no way to punish ground types and is supposed to be good against dark, but doesn't want its eviolite knocked off WHATSOEVER. Overall, this thing is just too outclassed and situational to deserve placement in the vr in my eyes. Let me know what you guys think!

Edit: Forgot to mention, the baton pass ban was really the nail in the coffin for this thing. It already faced immense competition as a NP passer from Celebi, but now can't even do one of the few niches it had.
 
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Nominating Togetic to go unranked
I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with this nomination. While Togetic is nowhere near the best Fairy-type available in UU, it's not unviable, and that's what you're implying.

Togetic is a very niche and unique 'mon to use in UU, but it has a niche nonetheless. Togetic can provide valuable role compression, especially on balance ond stall builds. Togetic switches in on Hydreigon, Krookodile and Conkeldurr, while at the same providing hazard control (this is huge), for example. Krookodile, Conkeldurr and Mega Absol are all able to Knock Off Togetic's Eviolite, sure, but even then it still effortlessly beats their most commonly used and hardest to check sets (CB Krookodile w/ Superpower and Bulk Up Conkeldurr in particular) if you need it to.

You also mention that Togetic is outclassed and faces too much competition being a Fairy-type, but it isn't outclassed and doesn't face too much competition, because it's unique and will be a better fit on certain teams than the other available Fairy-types. The role compression it offers could improve a squad as a whole significantly, even if Sylveon is a better Fairy-type 'mon than Togetic (which it obviously is). The Ground-types it supposedly can't punish, btw, either hate Dazzling Gleam, Seismic Toss, Toxic or all three (looking at you, Krookodile).

The baton pass ban was really the nail in the coffin for this thing. It already faced immense competition as a NP passer from Celebi, but now can't even do one of the few niches it had.
No, it wasn't. D: The main reason to use Togetic is the fact that it has access to Defog, not Baton Pass. It can still Defog, it can still check Bulk Up Conkeldurr (this is crucial for bulky teams), it still switches in on Hydreigon (especially now that Fire-type coverage is making a return to take out Klefki) and Krookodile, and it most importantly it can do all of these things (and a few more) in a single slot. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue that Togetic is absolutely fantastic and should fly through the ranks, I'm simply saying it isn't unviable and therefor should remain ranked.
 
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Tirishia

Banned deucer.
I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with this nomination. Tirishia is the best :D
Hey Tony. I will have to respectfully disagree with you respectfully disagreeing. I have read and understood the points you are making, but I can't help but find myself confused on why you would use togetic. Now there is a high chance that you know something I don't about competitive pokemon, so please correct me if I get any of this wrong. This is like my third month back from a 2 year hiatus. Let's address your strongest points. (I wrote too much I'm sorry)

Togetic provides role compression through hazard control:
You mention it being able to switch in on common threats like hydreigon, krookodile, and conkeldurr, which I agree with. The problem with this logic is that only one of these pokemon actually sets up hazards. When you have a pokemon weak to the most common entry hazard (stealth rocks), you want to have it switch in on the hazard layer. An example of a good defogger that is weak to hazards is moltres. While it takes a lot from switching in on hazards, it can safely switch in on common hazard layers like mega aggron, forretress, and non stone edge krookodile. Just click defog every time.

I understand the importance of coming in on popular threats and removing hazards, but it doesn't work with togetic because it is weak to hazards. What happens when you switch into that hydreigon and it u-turns out into a threat. You can't stay in or you die. You switch out and boom. The next time you switch in, you are at 50%. A better pokemon for this job is empoleon. It switches into most hydreigon sets with ease while providing hazard removal. It also does not get punished super hard by the u-turn play as it heals with lefties and resist stealth rocks.

Let's talk about conkeldurr or fighting types in general. I see your point on coming in on fighting types and defogging and I'll give it to you. It is a niche. I don't see bulky crobat or tentacruel providing the same amount of security in being that resist, however, is this niche valuable? I say no and here is why. Conkeldurr sets up a bulk up as you switch in. You click defog and conk clicks knock off. Conk switches out to mega aggron, empoleon, nidoqueen, mamoswine, etc. and they set up rocks again. Who came out winning in that situation? Togetic has no eviolite and has less than 75% health while rocks are still up with the worst thing happening is hax with thunderwave. Which is really good but if you are relying on hax to win games, then losing is the expected outcome.
Togetic still beats out knock off users:
Alright thats true, but you can't expect this pokemon to be so one dimensional. A 30%~ drop in defenses for the rest of the game for just switching into something you counter is HUGE. Togetic might still be able to counter that one pokemon, but now it lost the potential to counter countless others. There is also the real possibility that it will no longer be able to counter that pokemon. A lot of dark and fighting types are running coverage for sylveon and togetic is caught in the cross fire.

If I'm going to switching into threats, it means I don't have the leverage. I rather be setting up hazards in this position than defogging them because you dont play slow when you are behind...unless you are stall. Yes, I did read and see that you said this thing is valuable to stall. I still can't see it being better than most hazard removal even with all the role compression, because it is so mediocre in the roles it is suppose to accomplish. I have not seen one stall team with togetic.

Togetic did not have a niche in baton pass:
I know this isn't exactly your point but bear with me. Baton pass, although not very good, was in my opinion the niche that kept it in the rankings. Because of the low speed, bulk, and typing, togetic made a decent baton passer. I believe that defog is bad for the reasons explained above. Baton pass is banned. The last saving grace was being a fairy type with great physical bulk and recovery, which is pretty niche in itself. Sylveon took that away and granbull fills that awkward spot for more bulk for things like crawdaunt. I see no reason to keep this pokemon ranked.

There are pokemon that can be good defoggers that are weak to rocks. The difference between them and togetic is taunt. When you defog and that same pokemon comes in again to set up hazards, you prevent them and switch out. Crobat an mandibuzz are both examples of this.

I hope I don't come off as being a dick. I'm trying to share perspectives rather than convince you. It would be nice if you were convinced but I understand if you are not. Go ahead and talk with me sometime. I rather do that than flood up this thread but I do enjoy your arguments even if I don't agree with them.
 
I understand the importance of coming in on popular threats and removing hazards, but it doesn't work with togetic because it is weak to hazards. What happens when you switch into that hydreigon and it u-turns out into a threat. You can't stay in or you die. You switch out and boom. The next time you switch in, you are at 50%. A better pokemon for this job is empoleon. It switches into most hydreigon sets with ease while providing hazard removal. It also does not get punished super hard by the u-turn play as it heals with lefties and resist stealth rocks.

Let's talk about conkeldurr or fighting types in general. I see your point on coming in on fighting types and defogging and I'll give it to you. It is a niche. I don't see bulky crobat or tentacruel providing the same amount of security in being that resist, however, is this niche valuable? I say no and here is why. Conkeldurr sets up a bulk up as you switch in. You click defog and conk clicks knock off. Conk switches out to mega aggron, empoleon, nidoqueen, mamoswine, etc. and they set up rocks again. Who came out winning in that situation? Togetic has no eviolite and has less than 75% health while rocks are still up with the worst thing happening is hax with thunderwave. Which is really good but if you are relying on hax to win games, then losing is the expected outcome.
I agree it will have a bad time against momentum, even more if facing something with access to volt switch. However, if the team is well set, this solely depends on the ability of a player imo. Any hazard control needs some suport from the rest of the team, even if you are role compressing. So does cleric sylveon: it is not expected to, by itself, with 0 support, check stuff, heal bell and wish pass.

It isn't unviable and therefore should remain ranked.
I think both sides have solid arguments, why dont yall proceed on gathering replays? Imo its all thats needed. If somehow it manages to do its role with some effectiveness in some cases, it will be enough for it to remain ranked.

Escavalier, Mega Abomasnow, Florges and Whimsicott all must rise to A5.
I made cases for all four of these pokes to move up in my last post on this thread, but I really think that it'd be a huge shame to see such great mons stay amongst things they're all truly better and more consistent than, like Gligar and Toxicroak. Escav and Mega Aboma supporters are everywhere as of late, and it isn't hard to see why. Escavalier is literally a blanket check to about half of the stuff you'll see in common play, and is such an amazing teammate for pretty much everything in A5 or above thanks to its bulk and typing allowing it to switch into a plethora of different attacks feared by many (i.e. Sylveon Hyper Voice, anything from Celebi, many more) and really just knits teams together. It's an amazing anti-meta pokemon, sylveon partner, and gluemon on balance that's only fear is fire type attacks and it has no business staying in B+. Mega Abomasnow is undoubtedly one of the tier's best users of swords dance at the moment, thanks to soundproof before mega evolution, the ability to lure fires with earthquake, and the fact that it's not going to be stopped too easily if you're out of fire or fighting types. Florges is still a staple on balance thanks to its fantastic CM set and the ability to use wish and synthesis, and is just really being understated in B+ since it provides your team with both a reliable wincon and special attack sponge. Whimsicott has been hurt offensively by Sylveon and Celebi, but at the same rate brings so much more to the table than both the former and the latter. It can singlehandedly end a potential sweep, gain moment with an extremely fast u-turn, and provide its team with a plethora of different utility options, some being tailwind, leech seed, memento, encore, etc. Overall, the utility and role compression Whimsicott is able to provide your team with is more than enough to justify placement in A5, just as the other facts I've stated about Escavalier, Abomasnow and Florges are to get them to rise alongside it.
I partially disagree with this. Whimsicott faces a worse meta now that klefki is around. Florges can still handle fire and use klef as a setup fodder but still can be dealt with the same things used to deal with setup sweepers: roar haze trick encore not to mention the physical steel types like escavalier itself. But i definitely can see what you mean with these nominations, B+ rank seems to have some stuff that are more or less viable than others, with froslass likely going to drop. I think this could be solved with an A6 tier (yeah yet another one), but idk if it is considerable to expand the VR to this point atm.

(how do i tag people on these quotes im bad at this bbcode)

And at last id like to nominate Cobalion to high A3
It has great niche as rocks setter, volt switcher and swords dancer, while still being overall pretty fast, but it usually trades rocks in risky plays, his speed does not help its allies when volt swithcing and the shuca berry set may be too situational. Also, mons that have good sinnergy with it usually arent able to U-turn right off the bat, allowing clerics to do their job effectively. That combined with the fact it becomes frail after a close combat are my reasons.
 
Ah, Hi everyone, I'm kinda new around here, and I only started playing competitive Pokemon recently, so I'm not that informed about the game. But I do have a question to ask:

Why is Hydriegon in S rank? Every time I see replays of people using it it always dies or doesn't do much, and wouldn't just be better to use Salamence or something?

Also, won't it's viability drop alot with all the new Fairies running around in Sun and Moon?
 
Ah, Hi everyone, I'm kinda new around here, and I only started playing competitive Pokemon recently, so I'm not that informed about the game. But I do have a question to ask:

Why is Hydriegon in S rank? Every time I see replays of people using it it always dies or doesn't do much, and wouldn't just be better to use Salamence or something?

Also, won't it's viability drop alot with all the new Fairies running around in Sun and Moon?
This thread is ranking the viability of pokemon in the gen 6 UU metagame, not gen 7.
 
Ah, Hi everyone, I'm kinda new around here, and I only started playing competitive Pokemon recently, so I'm not that informed about the game. But I do have a question to ask:

Why is Hydriegon in S rank? Every time I see replays of people using it it always dies or doesn't do much, and wouldn't just be better to use Salamence or something?

Also, won't it's viability drop alot with all the new Fairies running around in Sun and Moon?
I don't play this tier, but Salamence is banned.
 

Amaroq

Cover me.
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Ah, Hi everyone, I'm kinda new around here, and I only started playing competitive Pokemon recently, so I'm not that informed about the game. But I do have a question to ask:

Why is Hydriegon in S rank? Every time I see replays of people using it it always dies or doesn't do much, and wouldn't just be better to use Salamence or something?

Also, won't it's viability drop alot with all the new Fairies running around in Sun and Moon?
Hydreigon is S rank because of its power, coverage, and incredible defensive utility for an offensive Pokemon. It's extremely versatile and can threaten every playstyle with the right set. See this thread for more in-depth reasoning regarding Hydreigon's place in the metagame.

Salamence is banned in ORAS UU.

It's possible that Hydreigon's viability will change as the Sun and Moon meta establishes itself, but we do not yet have an official Sun and Moon UU tier, and thus no Viability Rankings for Sun and Moon UU. Once the Sun and Moon UU metagame stabilizes, we'll begin another Viability Rankings thread for that environment.

Welcome to competitive Pokemon. I hope you enjoy your stay.
 
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ehT

:dog:
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I'm in a car rn so this won't be pretty lol

Diancie has gone ignored for far too long. Between its typing (Being the only Torn counter in the game is impressive by itself), Heal Bell, and Rocks, it compresses a handsome set of roles. However, as someone who has used Diancie a fair bit, I find its biggest flaw starts at the Teambuilder. On fat builds, the only Wish users it isn't completely redundant with are Alo and Bliss, only the former of which can actually consistently fit Wish in its 4 moveslots. And even then, bar switching into Torn, the two together actually cover all the roles Diancie wants to fulfill anyway. On balance and BO, Diancie's mostly redundant defensively with Sylveon and Florges (emphasis on mostly), meaning that you're forced to either find another Wish passer, or find teammates that mitigate the pressure placed on it, which is a chore considering you want it to take on all of Hydreigon, Houndoom, Tornadus, and others, all with only Leftovers for recovery. That said, if you can fit it on a team, it will work beautifully, and it's for this reason that I think moving it back to B is the most accurate representation of Diancie in this meta, although I certainly won't lose any sleep if it goes to B+.
 
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Before pearl does the last change to the thread I have a couple nom's for mons that seem a little odd to me in the B ranks, Aggron-M, Frosslass, and Feraligatr.


First of all I'd like to nom Aggron-M to B+. This one is kind of puzzling for me, as its a staple on Stall Semi-Stall and Balance that is crucial to alot of builds, and B seems like a really low spot for it.



The main argument that I've seen against its rise is that due to meta shifts it loses to big threats like most bulky waters, hydrei, M-swamp, Entei, and some fighting types like Conkeldurr. I've also seen the argument that the lack of reliable recovery hurts it too much, which is definitely true, (though rest sets do exist and aren't bad at all).

While all these points are very true, I think these arguments ignore the role that Aggron-M fills in UU. In stall, Aggron is paired with mons like Blissey and Alomomola and makes the first argument somewhat moot, and the same with balance or semi-stall where it's a part of standard Water Fairy Steel cores i.e. Suicune Sylveon and Aggron. While Aggron loses to hydrei, entei, fighting types and the like, it doesn't really matter because its partners suicune, sylveon, alomomola, blissey, cresselia etc. dont really care about these mons and can easily heal the damage off, and Aggron walls alot of things that can break down water-special wall cores, like celebi, cresselia, tornadus, and metagross and either straight ko's them or roars them out. In addition its often times one of the most offensive mons on a stall team with a massive 140 base special attack and a stupidly hard hitting heavy slam, and with filter it naturally counters or checks 20 some mons from S to B+, and many of the mons that can potentially beat it 1v1 or punish it get destroyed on the switch in, like Sceptile-M, Infernape, Empoleon, Heracross and Kyurem. Aggron is a really good glue mon for stall in this way as its often the one piece in the way for say a powerful breaker that can't quite break it, in personal experience I always look at this thing and say if I can break this X mon can sweep but its so hard to break due to the partners it can so easily switch into and how tough it is to wittle with other mons thanks to its monstrous defense. As for the second argument that it lacks recovery outside rest, again its partners can help it by passing wishes to it, though this is admittedly pretty sub-optimal.

The only other stall or semi-stall megas are Swamp, Steelix, Aero, and I suppose Ampharos. Of the other 4 the only two that have similar roles are steelix, which is essentially an inferior version of Aggron that is only chosen to have a volt switch immunity, and swampert-m which doesn't wall many of the things Aggron does, and doesn't have space for the options Aggron has since its forced to run Rest on stall to be effective.

Finally a really important point to consider is that Aggron is surprisingly versatile and can adjust to whatever the team needs, twave roar curse rest talk toxic(?) and stealth rocks of course, making it one of the most reliable rockers in the tier, setting up rocks on the likes of crobat and sylve quite easily and having it cripple or stop setup sweepers from just winning vs. stall, and in the case of curse it provides a surprisingly decent win con thats really hard to stop after a few boosts.


Next I want to second hilomilo in a nom for Frosslass to B. I think with all of the meta shifts its getting increasingly difficult to justify it and Klefki in the tier makes it a much harder sell, enough to put it down to B.



Firstly the only playstyle that Frosslass fits on, spikestack HO, has seen better days, while its not necessarily a bad style in a sense, spike stack HO has real problems with bulky offensive threats that the sweepers on those types of teams don't easily power through like Sylveon and Conkeldurr, and the general bulkier feel that the meta has taken as of late with the two prevalent styles of teams being Balance and Bulky offense.

Secondly and more importantly, Frosslass itself is quite underwhelming by itself, as suicide leads aren't exactly hard to predict and it can be shut down pretty easily by things in the tier like empo, tentacruel, entei, and non fighting priority users like mamoswine, lucario, and crawdaunt, so that it gets at most 1 layer of spike and then dies, leaving the team matchup 5-6. As a suicide lead it adds literally nothing to the defensive synergy of your team and if your opponent manages to defog or spin after (which can be quite hard depending on team composition but certainly not impossible) and since its specifically a spiker, if your opponent has a mostly non-grounded team then the spikes don't even put in much work in the first place, while in this case a rocker suicide lead like aero would be better. finally, besides getting up spikes, it doesn't really do much else other than maybe D-bond, (tho that strat doesn't really catch most by surprise anymore and rarely puts in work) so it just sits there and dies.

In comparison, Klefki offers spikes, the glorious twave which helps immensely against offense, toxic, actual defensive synergy, a good check to a good chunk of the uu meta like hydrei and crobat, foul play, and overall longevity since prankster means it can fully invest in its defenses so that you don't have to lead it and can instead bring it in many times throughout the course of a match and repeatedly spike up fairly reliably. While lass might have a few niches over it like the fact that it can spinblock, the vast amount of utility that klefki offers in comparison makes frosslass really tough to consider in comparison.


Finally i want to nominate Feraligatr to B. This one might be alot more controversial and it makes me sad to see gatr fall so far from grace, but in reality gatr is unfortunately outclassed in both of its sets for a few reasons.



Looking at DD Gatr, the obvious competition, Gyarados, just offers so much more to teams than Gatr does, Gyara has more speed, far more setup opportunities due to its typing and intimidate and the plethora of mons it offensively checks like Cobalion or Doublade, and a terrifying second stab in Flying. In addition, it has room for sub which gatr often can't afford or EQ on its two DD sets which make it either amazing vs walls that can't status it, or nigh unwallable with a terrific Water Flying Ground coverage. In contrast Gatr offers more power, better options vs grass types with protect, and crunch. Since it doesn't get to set up vs offensive teams it really struggles to do its job effectively and often falls flat.

On the second set, Sub SD, its a stallbreaker thats unfortunately outclassed by alot of other stallbreakers in the tier like lum SD Hax which has a far more powerful stab in Outrage, and almost unwallable coverage in poison jab and mold breaker earthquake that absolutely destroys defensive teams, Guts tox orb SD Heracross which is far more powerful and can wallbreak midgame at the cost of survivability, with the benefit of more speed and coverage that is similarly harder to wall, CM Reuniclus which is far bulkier and more reliable vs different teams other than straight up stall or semi-stall, Crawdaunt which hits everything in the tier for massive damage and has room for priority aqua jet and of course Bulk up Conk which has been discussed to death as one of the strongest stallbreakers in the tier.


If there's anything I missed feel free to let me know, and as for the other noms on the slate, I've already voiced my opinions on most of the ones I care about, though i definitely want to stress Escavalier and Abomasnow to A5 and Klefki to A2. Thank you for reading and thanks to the thread runners for the consideration n_n
 
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It really is unforturnate to have to acknowledge how inactive this thread is :( but before it closes, I really feel as though there are plenty of things within the current viability ranks that could change. Specifically, I'm going to go through each rank down to B- and discuss what I think about the pokes in the rank and what could rise/drop. Here's my 5 cents, UU. Hope you enjoy reading!

S rank - there really isn't anything in here that at all warrants a drop, since this trio is by far the most influential group of pokemon in the entire tier, though I think that there definitely is potential for another mon to rise here (I'll get to that in a sec).


A1 - This is a similar case to S, since everything in this tier is just absolutely fantastic in the current meta, though Mega Aerodactyl is a serious understatement among Sylveon and Conkeldurr. Its amazing speed, above-average bulk and great immediate power allow it easily be a large step ahead of anything in its current rank. Even if its been suffering a little, there's no way its closer in viability to Entei than Suicune. I also think Conkeldurr should rise above everything else in the rank, since its got a lot more consistency and versatility between its CB, AV and bulk up sets than the one dimensional Krookodile and Entei and even Sylveon. Bulk up is the most notable, since it can take advantage of pretty much just every playstyle and makes players think twice about putting any kind of status inducer on their team.


A2 - Of course, we've got a lot of good stuff in this rank, but should Cobalion really be here anymore? It's still a really splashable mon, but has lost some consistency in that it hasn't adapted particularly well to the meta's increase in bulk. Conk gives it some big problems, and the notable increase in usage of intimidate-mons also contributes to its continous power struggle. It's still a great mon, but to me is more on par with the likes of Infernape and Mamoswine than with Mega Swampert or Cresselia. It's also worth mentioning that set up opportunities can be tricky to find nowadays.


A3 and A4 - both of these ranks are actually perfect right now, since all the pokemon are pretty similar in terms of influence and consistency. Metagross should probably be higher in A4, since its offensive SR set and great matchups against really prevalent threats like Sylv, Klefki and dazzling gleam Celebi are all fantastic traits, but its still represented really well in low A4 nonetheless.


A5 - Doublade really should go to B+. It's a great pokemon in that its SD set is extremely hard to deal with late-game, but as Notewire and Hilomilo said earlier on, there are a lot of other great steel types in the tier that alongside offensive prowess, bring even more to the table, be it a switchin to Sylveon on Metagross' part or the ability to blanket check half the tier if you're Escavalier, which should definitely switch a rank with it.


B+ - considering the A ranks have altered a little in terms of what's expected to be A material, Escavalier and Mega Abomasnow should most definitely move up. Both of these mons are extremely good anti-meta threats, considering they offensively (and in Escav's case, defensively) blanket-check just about half the tier. Other noms regarding these two have been made, and it'd just be such a shame to see them stay where they are since they're so much closer to A5 mons in terms of viability than almost anything in A5. Florges is another mon that really should rise from B+, as this is another matter of just being A material given the new expectations. It's got a hell of a CM set and quite a few niches over Sylveon (mainly wish synth) that definitely justify placement above B+, where it's much better than Whimsicott and Toxicroak. Lastly, Froslass should move down, since damn Klefki hurt this thing, though I feel like this one's been elaborated on by other users already and quite well.


B - Yeah, gonna agree with Notewire here in saying that Mega Aggron should really move up. This thing's a really influential mon on stall teams given that it forms one hell of a defensive core alongside Alomomola and Blissey. It also partners Florges/Sylveon super well and just doesn't have much of a reason to stay in B now given that just about every other bulky steel has risen and its the most threatening mon in its current subrank. Arcanine and Chandy also really need to move up now, since they compare to the new B+ a lot better now that half of its in A5. Arcanine is an amazing defensive poke, since its ability to spread status super easily and check the tier's most common offensive cores is super valuable. Decent offensive presence, recovery and phasing capabilities are all just icing on the cake at this rate, and Chandy just decimates bulkier builds with its specs set (scarf's better than anything in B right now too, since it blows through offense, but bulky offense is more prevalent and worth mentioning).


B- - Diancie's placement in this rank has already been discussed really thoroughly, but I'm going to go ahead and support the nom for its rise. Its definitely hard to build around, but has amazing role compression in that it can dent a lot of stuff with uninvested moonblasts and diamond storms and its a super reliable answer to stuff like band Nape and Torn. I'd like to advocate for the additions of Tyrantrum and Machamp into this rank as well, since Machamp really just flew under the radar upon Conk's entry into the tier. It has a 100% accurate dynamic punch, which has 100% confusion chance and great power given its STAB, and is super hard to deal with given that the tier lacks ghost types and it still has knock off to predict switch ins. Conk has compromised its viability, sure, but it's main niche hasn't gotten any worse and its definitely better than the likes of Fletchinder or Zoroark. Lastly is Tyrantrum, which also is just way better than what's in C+. Head smash is pretty much the only reason its viable, but its such an amazingly powerful move with limited switch ins. I know I haven't done a necessarily amazing job expressing my opinion on this guy (gimme a break its 2:40 right now haha) but damn is it being misrepresented in its current rank.


With that done, thanks to everyone for reading this post and contributing to the thread! I really hope to see some of these changes happen, but regardless thanks to the council for their consideration and amazing job on these viability rankings :) till gen 7, uu!

Edit: I do NOT think Conk is S rank material. Just wanted to clear that up since it sounds like that's what I'm suggesting, though I really think its just better than Krookodile and Entei, though Sylveon should be at the top of A1
 
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