Ubers Arceus-Ice



[OVERVIEW]
* Arceus-Ice can be useful on certain offensive teams as an offensive check to Zygarde-C, Mega Salamence, and other threatening Dragon-types.
* Arceus-Ice has an excellent offensive typing, as few Pokemon in Ubers resist Ice-type moves.
* Arceus-Ice can also play the role of a deadly one-time wallbreaker with Subzero Slammer, ripping apart Primal Groudon.
* However, Arceus-Ice has a horrible defensive typing that offers it only a single resistance while shouldering it with common weaknesses and a vulnerability to Stealth Rock. This means that Arceus-Ice confers no defensive benefits to its team.
* Icium Z variants require good prediction to function and become very weak after they lose use of their item.
* Arcues-Ice carries an inherent opportunity cost, as it uses up a team's Arceus slot. This confines it to niche roles.

[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh / Fire Blast
item: Icicle Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
* Calm Mind boosts Arceus-Ice's offensive presence, notably allowing it to 2HKO all but the most specially defensive Primal Groudon variants with Judgment after Stealth Rock damage.
* Judgment is Arceus-Ice's best STAB move that rips apart Dragon- and Flying-types, such as Mega Salamence, Zygarde-C, and Yveltal.
* Recover is mandatory to ensure Arceus-Ice can continue doing its job of checking threatening Pokemon throughout a match.
* Refresh allows Arceus-Ice to remove status afflictions, improving its matchup against balance teams.
* Alternatively, Fire Blast can be run over Refresh should it be necessary for Arceus-Ice to hit Steel-type switch-ins, such as Magearna.
* Arceus-Ice can forgo Judgment in favor of Ice Beam should it wish to act as a one-time wallbreaker with Subzero Slammer and Icium Z. With this move and maximum investment in Special Attack, Arceus-Ice can OHKO almost all Primal Groudon and severely cripple Ho-Oh switch-ins after Stealth Rock damage.
* However, Ice Beam becomes very weak after Arceus-Ice uses Subzero Slammer, as it receives no passive boost to Base Power from Icium Z.

Set Details
========
* 248 HP EVs maximize Arceus-Ice's bulk, letting it avoid the OHKO from Mega Salamence's boosted Double-Edge if Stealth Rock is not up, and ensure Arceus-Ice's HP is not divisible by four, allowing it to switch into Stealth Rock four times.
* Maximum Speed investment and a Timid nature ensure Arceus-Ice Speed ties with other maximum Speed Arceus formes.
* If running Icium Z, Arceus-Ice should run maximum investment in Special Attack and Speed with a Timid nature to ensure Subzero Slammer hits as hard as possible.

Usage Tips
========
* Against offensive teams, take advantage of Arceus-Ice's natural bulk to switch it into neutral attacks from Pokemon it outspeeds and checks, such as Yveltal, Mega Salamence, and Rayquaza. Arceus-Ice can then take the opportunity to boost, hit the switch-in with Judgment, or predict the switch and switch out, gaining momentum for your team. However, Arceus-Ice must tread carefully if the Pokemon it is supposed to check carry super effective coverage moves, such as Heat Wave on Yveltal or V-create on Rayquaza.
* Arceus-Ice can also easily switch into weak attacks or status moves from Pokemon common on balance and stall teams, such as Zygarde-C, Lugia, and defensive Arceus-Ground, and can stand up to attempts to Toxic stall it with Refresh and Recover.
* Judgment is often a safe option, as Ice-type STAB hits much of the tier for neutral or better damage. Use Calm Mind once Arceus-Ice's checks have been worn down.
* Do not attempt to accumulate Calm Mind boosts too early in the match, as this can invite in dangerous threats such as a healthy Primal Groudon.
* If Arceus-Ice is running Fire Blast, it can use it against predicted Steel-type switch-ins to deal heavy damage to them. However, this means Arceus-Ice must be more careful against defensive teams, as no Refresh makes it much more vulnerable to Toxic.

Team Options
========
* Sweeper variants of Primal Groudon are useful teammates for Arceus-Ice, as they immensely benefit from its ability to remove their checks, such as Giratina-O, Lugia, and Zygarde-C. In return, Primal Groudon can deal with Arceus-Ice's checks, such as Steel-types and Ho-Oh.
* Stealth Rock support from Pokemon such as Dialga, Tyranitar, and Primal Groudon can wear down Arceus-Ice's switch-ins. In particular, Stealth Rock strips Ho-Oh of half of its health, which worsens its ability to check Arceus-Ice.
* Giratina-O can remove the entry hazards Arceus-Ice despises with Defog. However, lead Excadrill can be useful on more offensive teams, as it can both set up Stealth Rock to punish Ho-Oh and clear hazards from the field in the early-game.
* U-turn users, such as Yveltal, Tapu Koko, and Mega Scizor, can bring Arceus-Ice into play safely.
* Mega Gengar and Primal Groudon can deal with Clefable for Arceus-Ice.
* Mega Gyarados can assist Arceus-Ice in dealing with stall teams. In return, Arceus-Ice checks Mega Salamence for Mega Gyarados.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
* Arceus-Ice can run Thunder to give it a better matchup against Pokemon such as Arceus-Water, Primal Kyogre, and Ho-Oh. Unfortunately, Arceus-Ice often cannot afford to forgo either Recover or Refresh, as both are key to its durability.
* Arceus-Ice has few other options due to its poor defensive typing.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Ho-Oh**: Ho-Oh walls Arceus-Ice and deals massive damage with Sacred Fire. However, if Arceus-Ice is running Thunder, Ho-Oh risks being knocked out by a boosted Thunder if Stealth Rock is up.

**Steel-types**: Steel-types, such as Magearna, Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, Solgaleo, Arceus-Steel, Aegislash, Klefki, and Bronzong, force Arceus-Ice out if it doesn't have Fire Blast and can set up on it. Magearna is especially dangerous, as it can steal Arceus-Ice's Calm Mind boosts with Heart Swap.

**Fighting-types**: Mega Lucario can switch into a boosting or unboosted Arceus-Ice and OHKO it with Close Combat. However, it cannot switch in on a boosted Judgment. Pheromosa can revenge kill Arceus-Ice with High Jump Kick, but it cannot switch into Judgment at all. Deoxys-A is similarly dangerous due to its access to strong Fighting-type coverage in Superpower, but it cannot switch into Arceus-Ice.

**Fire-types**: Only the most specially defensive Primal Groudon can switch into Subzero Slammer or a boosted Judgment. However, Primal Groudon can beat Arceus-Ice in most other situations with super effective Fire-type STAB moves or Rock-type coverage moves. Blaziken can switch into Arceus-Ice and OHKO it with Flare Blitz.

**Blissey**: Blissey walls Arceus-Ice and can Snatch away its Calm Mind boosts. However, if Blissey lacks Snatch, it will lose, as Arceus-Ice can boost in its face while removing any status it tries to inflict with Refresh.

**Rock-types**: Due to its natural type advantage, Arceus-Rock can win Calm Mind wars against Arceus-Ice. Choice Band Tyranitar is almost never 2HKOed by a boosted Judgment due to the Special Defense boost it receives from sand and can 2HKO Arceus-Ice with Stone Edge.

**Primal Kyogre**: Calm Mind Primal Kyogre is dangerous to Arceus-Ice. Primordial Sea-boosted Origin Pulses hit Arceus-Ice for neutral damage, and Primal Kyogre's resistance to Judgment allows it to easily boost alongside Arceus-Ice. Arceus-Ice also struggles against defensive variants of Primal Kyogre that carry Toxic, as it is forced to use Refresh to ward off both Scald burns and Toxic damage; this prevents it from using Recover as often as it would like to, reducing its longevity.

**Clefable**: Unaware Clefable walls Arceus-Ice, as it ignores Arceus-Ice's Calm Mind boosts. This allows it to use Arceus-Ice as setup fodder.
 
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I'm not too sure if max SpA is needed on the given set in the OP, but if it is, let me know. However, this was a set that I ran in the RMT seen in my sig:

Arceus-Ice @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 112 HP / 144 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Judgment
- Thunder

You still 2HKO Ho-Oh with +1 Thunder or OHKO after Rocks, 2HKOing max HP Pogre with +1 Thunder as well as having a very high chance of 2HKOing support Groudon with +1 Judgment and is guaranteed after rocks, which allows you to invest in some bulk to help yourself set up more comfortably, even if it's just a little bit.
 

shrang

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Max SpA or near-max SpA guarantees an OHKO on Primal Groudon after Stealth Rock if you're using Icium Z and Ice Beam
 
Max SpA or near-max SpA guarantees an OHKO on Primal Groudon after Stealth Rock if you're using Icium Z and Ice Beam
What sets/stat boosts were you calcing with?

252 SpA Arceus-Ice Subzero Slammer (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 295-348 (86.5 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Arceus-Ice Subzero Slammer (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 313-369 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Anyways, my spread was mainly for Judgment Iceceus.
 

shrang

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I got:
508 Atk vs 266 Def & 403 HP (175 Base Power): 358 - 423 (88.83% - 104.96%)

That's for 248/200 P Don at 175 BP (+1 Timid Iceus)
 
That isn't necessarily a "guaranteed OHKO after rocks" if Pdon's coming in on rocks for the first time as normal Groudon, since it'll only take 6% the turn it primal reverts. However, that's definitely a better chance to kill with max SpA than my spread, which is mainly for Judgment variants anyways.
 
This is ready for QC. Regarding EV spreads, I've kept 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe, but I can see upsides to both the 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe+ spread from ORAS and the 112 HP / 144 SpA / 252+ Spe spread Vengeance suggested. I have mentioned the latter two in Set Details for now, subject to any possible change.
 
[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh / Thunder / Fire Blast
item: Icicle Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe

Icium Z + Ice Beam with the SpA to Set Details / Moves. Iceceus can still be a bulky Arceus that is pretty threatening by virtue of being a strong Ice-type with 120 Speed but more specialized in what its hitting. Many Ubers do not have it as a STAB option and Arceus-Ice is the most viable one. HP is needed to stand a real chance vs whatever its taking on and just be a general CM Arceus. It can take a RP Groudon Stone Edge after SR with HP but can't without it. It can take a +1 Double Edge from Salamence with no SR around but is pretty likely to die without HP (or if SR is up regardless).

The spacing is pretty compacted as well, give it a looking at. I'll look more into this afterwards.
 

shrang

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Are we really using Refresh as the first slot on this thing? What does it even do? I get the max HP (even though I don't like it), but Refresh baffles me. I get that status absorption is nice, but really, without Thunder you're destroyed by Kyogre and potentially a bunch of Steels. Refresh doesn't get anywhere vs stall at all, since they all carry Magearna anyway. Mono-attacking Iceus is like a worse mono-attacking Rockceus which was established back in BW/XY/ORAS had too shitty of a defensive typing to be a good mono attacker (and Ice is even worse!). Mono-attacking Arcs are kind of crappy on the whole this gen now imo.
 
refresh is the best move for the last slot

Mag isn't a good stall mon. The line between the terms common, standard, and good is delicate. Even so, refresh wouldn't exactly be a standalone stallbreaker as stalls commonly carry other things that annoy iceceus too much, but refresh is still strong vs balance and allows you to more liberally check mons such as zyg/lugia/giratina-o etc.

Even without thunder iceceus stands a good chance at beating standard kyogre.

idk what you are on about re: mono attacking arceus formes. Rock has always been a decent one and ice was a pretty decent one at least in oras. But really who cares about what was the meta in previous gens?

thunder gets a nod in the meta for being able to beat toxic ogre (refresh is likely to succumb to scalds in combination with poison damage and the increased likelyhood for crit due to more recover turns). It is also a decent weapon vs arceus-water if you want to avoid passively refreshing etc (which isn't so bad but still).

fire blast seems to be a more SM specific move but I can dig it. Every non refresh set is hard to maneuver in vs mons with tox that you'd normally beat. I'd personally hate that in a game scenario
 
Last edited:
i don't erally know what thunder is even hitting that is more relevant than status absorb and/or hitting magearna. i'd put thunder in and make the last slash refresh / fire blast.
 
Metagross can be mentioned under Steel-types in C&C. Add a section for Fighting-types and include Pheromosa as well as Pokemon with Fighting coverage that outspeed Arceus-Ice, such as Deo-A.

**Primal Kyogre**: Arceus-Ice struggles against defensive variants of Primal Kyogre that carry Toxic, as it is forced to use Refresh to ward off both Scald burns and Toxic damage; this prevents it from using Recover as often as it would like to, reducing its survivability. Arceus-Ice can also struggle somewhat against Calm Mind Primal Kyogre, as it does not resist Primal Kyogre's Water-type STAB moves.
CM POgre is more dangerous to Arceus-Ice's sweeping potential than defensive variants and the language should reflect that.


QC 2/3
 
Usage tips could do with some buffing. Arceus-Ice can still switch into stuff like Salamence, Yveltal, and Rayquaza if SR is down. Even if it doesn't enjoy the damage it can still force them out as they aint faster. Note how it plays out in matchups of balance, offense and stall. What should it be doing? Switching into? Being wary of? If covered well enough you should have a decent amount of extra information covered.
* Arceus-Ice's terrible defensive typing leaves it with few other options.
* Arceus-Ice can run Thunder to give it a better matchup against Pokemon such as Arceus-Water, Primal Kyogre, and Ho-Oh. However, Arceus-Ice often cannot afford to forgo either Recover or Refresh, as both are key to its durability.
This reads pretty odd to me. Might wanna reword the first or remove it and add a note to the second that Thunder is the only other thing it can do. I'll give the final stamp afterwards.
 
Team Options will want methods around Clefable, as CM Arceus-Ice is forced to PP stall it at best. Gengar, Groudon, etc. Mega Gyarados is a good partner to this mon as well, so feel free to include that.

QC 3/3
 

P Squared

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aurora :)


GP 1/1
[OVERVIEW]
* Arceus-Ice can be useful on certain offensive teams as an offensive check to Zygarde-C, Mega Salamence, and other threatening Dragon-types.
* Arceus-Ice has an excellent offensive typing, as few Pokemon in Ubers resist Ice-type moves.
* Arceus-Ice can also play the role of a deadly one-time wallbreaker with Subzero Slammer, ripping apart Primal Groudon.
* However, Arceus-Ice has a horrible defensive typing that offers it only a single resistance while shouldering it with common weaknesses and a vulnerability to Stealth Rock. This means that Arceus-Ice confers no defensive benefits to its team.
* Icium Z variants require good prediction to function and become very weak after they lose use of their item.
* Arcues-Ice carries an inherent opportunity cost, as it uses up a team's Arceus slot. This confines it to niche roles.

[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh / Fire Blast
item: Icicle Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
* Calm Mind boosts Arceus-Ice's offensive presence, notably allowing it to 2HKO all but the most specially defensive Primal Groudon variants with Judgment after Stealth Rock damage.
* Judgment is Arceus-Ice's best STAB move that rips apart Dragon- and Flying-types, such as Mega Salamence, Zygarde-C, and Yveltal.
* Recover is mandatory to ensure Arceus-Ice can continue doing its job of checking threatening Pokemon throughout a match.
* Refresh allows Arceus-Ice to remove status afflictions, improving its matchup against balance teams.
* Alternatively, Fire Blast can be run over Refresh should it be necessary for Arceus-Ice to hit Steel-type switch-ins, such as Magearna.
* Arceus-Ice can forgo Judgment in favour favor of Ice Beam should it wish to act as a one-time wallbreaker with Subzero Slammer and Icium Z. With this move and maximum investment in Special Attack, Arceus-Ice can OHKO almost all Primal Groudon and severely cripple Ho-Oh switch-ins after Stealth Rock damage.
* However, Ice Beam becomes very weak after Arceus-Ice uses Subzero Slammer, as it receives no passive boost to Base Power from Icium Z.

Set Details
========
* 248 HP EVs maximize Arceus-Ice's bulk, letting it avoid the OHKO from Mega Salamence's boosted Double-Edge if Stealth Rock is not up, and ensure Arceus-Ice's HP is not divisible by four, allowing it to switch into Stealth Rock four times.
* Maximum Speed investment and a Timid nature ensure Arceus-Ice Speed ties with other maximum Speed Arceus formes.
* If running Icium Z, Arceus-Ice should run maximum investment in Special Attack and Speed with a Timid nature to ensure Subzero Slammer hits as hard as possible.

Usage Tips
========
* Against offensive teams, take advantage of Arceus-Ice's natural bulk to switch it into neutral attacks from Pokemon it outspeeds and checks, such as Yveltal, Mega Salamence, and Rayquaza. Arceus-Ice can then take the opportunity to boost, hit the switch-in with Judgment, or predict the switch and switch out, gaining momentum for your team. However, Arceus-Ice must tread carefully if the Pokemon it is supposed to check carry super effective coverage moves, such as Heat Wave on Yveltal or V-create on Rayquaza.
* Arceus-Ice can also easily switch into weak attacks or status moves from Pokemon common on balance and stall teams, such as Zygarde-C, Lugia, and defensive Arceus-Ground, and can stand up to attempts to Toxic stall it with Refresh and Recover.
* Judgment is often a safe option, as Ice-type STAB hits much of the tier for neutral or better damage. Use Calm Mind once Arceus-Ice's checks have been worn down.
* Do not attempt to accumulate Calm Mind boosts too early in the match, as this can invite in dangerous threats such as a healthy Primal Groudon.
* If Arceus-Ice is running Fire Blast, it can use it against predicted Steel-type switch-ins to deal heavy damage to them. However, this means Arceus-Ice must be more careful against defensive teams, as no Refresh makes it much more vulnerable to Toxic.

Team Options
========
* Sweeper variants of Primal Groudon are useful teammates for Arceus-Ice, as they immensely benefit from its ability to remove their checks, such as Giratina-O, Lugia, and Zygarde-C. In return, Primal Groudon can deal with Arceus-Ice's checks, such as Steel-types and Ho-Oh.
* Stealth Rock support from Pokemon such as Dialga, Tyranitar, and Primal Groudon can wear down Arceus-Ice's switch-ins. In particular, Stealth Rock strips Ho-Oh of half of its health, which worsens its ability to check Arceus-Ice.
* Giratina-O can remove the entry hazards Arceus-Ice despises with Defog. However, lead Excadrill can be useful on more offensive teams, as it can both set up Stealth Rock to punish Ho-Oh and clear hazards from the field in the early-game.
* U-turn users, such as Yveltal, Tapu Koko, and Mega Scizor, can bring Arceus-Ice into play safely.
* Mega Gengar and Primal Groudon can deal with Clefable for Arceus-Ice.
* Mega Gyarados can assist Arceus-Ice in dealing with stall teams. In return, Arceus-Ice checks Mega Salamence for Mega Gyarados.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
* Arceus-Ice can run Thunder to give it a better matchup against Pokemon such as Arceus-Water, Primal Kyogre, and Ho-Oh. Unfortunately, Arceus-Ice often cannot afford to forgo either Recover or Refresh, as both are key to its durability.
* Arceus-Ice has few other options due to its poor defensive typing.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Ho-Oh**: Ho-Oh walls Arceus-Ice and deals massive damage with Sacred Fire. However, if Arceus-Ice is running Thunder, Ho-Oh risks being knocked out by a boosted Thunder if Stealth Rock is up.

**Steel-types**: Steel-types, such as Magearna, Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, Solgaleo, Arceus-Steel, Aegislash, Klefki, and Bronzong, force Arceus-Ice out if it doesn't have Fire Blast and can set up on it. Magearna is especially dangerous, as it can steal Arceus-Ice's Calm Mind boosts with Heart Swap.

**Fighting-types**: Mega Lucario can switch into a boosting or unboosted Arceus-Ice and OHKO it with Close Combat. However, it cannot switch in on a boosted Judgment. Pheromosa can revenge kill Arceus-Ice with High Jump Kick, but it cannot switch into Judgment at all. Deoxys-A is similarly dangerous due to its access to strong Fighting-type coverage in Superpower, but it cannot switch into Arceus-Ice.

**Fire-types**: Only the most specially defensive Primal Groudon can switch into Subzero Slammer or a boosted Judgment. However, Primal Groudon can beat Arceus-Ice in most other situations with super effective Fire-type STAB moves or Rock-type coverage moves. Blaziken can switch into Arceus-Ice and OHKO it with Flare Blitz.

**Blissey**: Blissey walls Arceus-Ice and can Snatch away its Calm Mind boosts. However, if Blissey lacks Snatch, it will lose, as Arceus-Ice can boost in its face while removing any status it tries to inflict with Refresh.

**Rock-types**: Due to its natural type advantage, Arceus-Rock can win Calm Mind wars against Arceus-Ice. Choice Band Tyranitar is almost never 2HKOed by a boosted Judgment due to the Special Defense boost it receives from sand and can 2HKO Arceus-Ice with Stone Edge.

**Primal Kyogre**: Calm Mind Primal Kyogre is dangerous to Arceus-Ice. Primordial Sea-boosted Origin Pulses hit Arceus-Ice for neutral damage, and Primal Kyogre's resistance to Judgment allows it to easily boost alongside Arceus-Ice. Arceus-Ice also struggles against defensive variants of Primal Kyogre that carry Toxic, as it is forced to use Refresh to ward off both Scald burns and Toxic damage; this prevents it from using Recover as often as it would like to, reducing its survivability. (switch to longevity if referring to its ability to last in the battle for a long time)

**Clefable**: Unaware Clefable walls Arceus-Ice, as it ignores Arceus-Ice's Calm Mind boosts. This allows it to use Arceus-Ice as setup fodder.
 

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