Metagame SM NU Alpha Discussion (read post #153)

[cyanize]

Disagree about Vikavolt. It's typing isn't good defensively, giving it common fire and rock weaknesses including Stealth Rock. It can use Agility to boost its Speed - it can outrun 135s at +2 if using a Timid Nature. As for being too slow to wall break, Golem can run a good band set and isn't much faster 45 vs 43 I think. It does have much better offensive typing though.

I beg to differ. Vikavolt may have a weakness to Fire and Rock (as do most bugs), but its typing also gives it nice resistances to Fighting, Grass, Electric, Steel and an immunity to Ground, as well as an uncommon trait in Bugs in a neutrality to Flying. It also has excellent bulk (better than the likes of Vileplume and speed-invested Garbodor), allowing it to take extremely strong neutral hits rather well -

252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vikavolt: 175-207 (48.8 - 57.8)

Not to say sets like LO roost can't work, but honestly idt Agility will have a lot of merit since it being so slow and not nearly as bulky uninvested it doesn't force many things out to set up an Agility in the first place.

Also, there's a reason Golem wasn't used at all last gen.

Edit: Skelos sniped me by a good bit whoops

 

[erisia]

Defensive Vikavolt is legit, Rock-weak sucks but it avoids T-Spikes and has enough good resists to make up for it. I would probably use an attack over Toxic since even with 0 EVs it hits 326 SpA and gets good hits on most mons (also almost all of our good Electric checks get wrecked by Energy Ball, and those that don't get wrecked by Bug Buzz. Here's the set I used:

Vikavolt @ Leftovers / Electrium-Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Bug Buzz
- Energy Ball
- Roost

Hits a jump-point in SpA, a Leftovers number, and speed creep. Volt Switch is the STAB of choice since Electric is a great attacking type atm and Vikavolt is excellent as a slow pivot for bringing in your frail heavy hitters. Bug Buzz and Energy Ball hit most Electric checks hard, Roost for recovery. I went with a Modest nature since it makes you that much less passive and more difficult to switch into once you block something. Leftovers is usually a good choice since it helps mitigate Rocks damage, but Electrium-Z gives you a powerful Electric-type attack while also keeping you in if you don't want to switch out.

 

[Plas]

Honestly surprised nobody has been talking about this set

Dodrio @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mirror Move
- Jump Kick
- Quick Attack
- Brave Bird

Z-Mirror Move is an SD, but it copies the opponents move it used to KO your mon and you use the same move, with Z Power. For example, They're bruxish KOes your qwilfish with psychic fangs. You go Dodrio and ZMM. This gives you +2 attack and then hits him with a +2 shattered psyche from psychic fangs. IF they switch, it does not use the opponents Z move but still gives you plus 2. There is zero reason to run SD over MM unless you need a z-crystal on a different mon. Getting a revenge KO along with +2 on a base 110 mon is ridiculously good honestly as it is not going to be bulky enough to get an SD assuming rocks are up. QA cleans, BB flynium is also just a nuke if you can't sweep or just want to wallbreak. This also has the potential for fun stuff.


Scenario

For example say you hard switch from a defensive Garbodor into Dodrio on a steelix EQ because he doesn't want to heavy slam and take rocky helmet+aftermath. You switch out with this thing.

+2 252 Atk Dodrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 378-446 (107.3 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That Happens. Looks like hella fun tbh, allowing it to beat many of its own counters in scenarios like this.

 

[dfmetal]

Was reading the thread but i never saw any post on Schuckle

Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Encore / Toxic
- Infestation / Knock Off

Don't need to talk a lot about how sticky web can be a terrible play style, but now we got some terrifying abusers coming from RU like Exploud, Typhlosion (welcome back btw !), Moltres, Druddigon, Hitmonlee, Machamp...
I can also talk about support mons, which would be able to keep Webs up, or just help Shuckle to put it. We got new great Pursuiters in Drapion, Sneasel and Spiritomb to destroy Xatu, and we also got many options to prevent/punish EH removal like Sabeleye, Spiritomb again, Braviairy, Hoopa, Jellicent, why not Ghost Silvally.
Really want to see what this thing could do in the new NU

 

[Skelos]

IT'S BACK

too bad it has to drop from ou first before it reaches our lovely rock bottom. --> freeoldmegasystem
​

 

[viol and bass]

So guys. Antar just confirmed that we're not getting stats this month:

Stats are just not going to happen this month until Zarel can fix whatever's going on with PS that's making disk performance so poor.

Zarel responded that he's working on getting a better server, but that stats for past months (including probably April) would remain on the old server and remain difficult to access. What that means is that we won't be getting March stats, and stats for even April are probably dubious. So this is clearly a large setback for SM NU. How will the tier leaders deal with this? It seems to me that you either:

1) Wait until we have new stats which will take an extremely long time, delay the creation of PU, and the stats we end up with will probably be severely outdated by the time we actually get them (like Antar may have March stats partway through May, and that's an optimistic scenario), or

2) Create NU Alpha now based on old stats.

Neither way is ideal but that's the situation.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Personally I think the 2nd solution is the better one. As you said neither are ideal, but I think it's the lesser of two evils and lets us start working on the tier now so we can establish what's broken and what isn't.

 

[erisia]

We might as well delay since that way Mega Audino will have time to drop all the way down from OU. :v

Nah but seriously we're discussing solutions and will get back to you once we have a concrete plan.

 

[AJB]

Man, we are really going all out for April fools this year!

 

[Virizain]

Mega Audino will have time to drop all the way down from OU. :v

I think that Mega Audino would have to face like, blood to tooth competition with Aromatisse, which has a crucial fighting resistance in a tier full of Hitmonlee/Gallade/Emboar and doesn't take up your Glalie slot, and their bulk is very, very close.

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Audino-Mega: 136-161 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Aromatisse: 179-212 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


That's like just ~11% more damage on a pokemon that can do absolutely everything Mega Audino could do, besides not being taunt bait thanks to Aroma Veil, being able to hold an item, and even being able to set-up trick room without the mental herb. I don't think waiting for Mega Audino will do any good, as it will just pass right through neverused as long as Aromatisse stays in it.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

I think that Mega Audino would have to face like, blood to tooth competition with Aromatisse, which has a crucial fighting resistance in a tier full of Hitmonlee/Gallade/Emboar and doesn't take up your Glalie slot, and their bulk is very, very close.

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Audino-Mega: 136-161 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Aromatisse: 179-212 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's like just ~11% more damage on a pokemon that can do absolutely everything Mega Audino could do, besides not being taunt bait thanks to Aroma Veil, being able to hold an item, and even being able to set-up trick room without the mental herb. I don't think waiting for Mega Audino will do any good, as it will just pass right through neverused as long as Aromatisse stays in it.

Mega Audino could also run a more offensively inclined CM + 3 Attacks set with Dazzling Gleam, Fire Blast and any of Surf, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot or Psychic in the final slot to act as a lure. The set was surprisingly effective last gen, although I'm not sure how good it would be now (is anyone though)?

 

[yogi]

I would also like to add that asking question like when will nu be out will in fact not make nu come out faster.

More on topic m-dino will most likely still be a very good staple on balance and certainly stall teams, and I do believe that the calm mind and more offensive sets will still find a niche in a more settled meta.

 

[cyanize]

For what it's worth, Aromatisse was generally considered an inferior option in ORAS RU, whereas Mega Audino was in the A- rank on the VR. Access to Regen pre-mega is a huge selling point, and that ~11% matters a lot, considering it's about the same damage as neutral rocks and rocks often play a big role in damage calcs.

 

[erisia]

Also percentages don't work like that. If Aromatisse takes 44% and Mega Audino takes 33%, then Mega Audino is actually taking 25% less damage relative to Aromatisse, which is much more signifiant than you're making it out to be. Aromatisse is cool but it doesn't actually have as much raw bulk as you'd think.

 

[Evan.]

remember that tisse has lefties at least though, especially combined w/ protect which pretty much erases that 25% deficit. still think audino will be the more versatile and better mon (regen + better movepool etc) but no lefties for it is actually a bigger deal than people are letting on

 

[G-Luke]

Is there a list of mons usable in NU Pre-Alpha?

 

[AJB]

G-Luke
Yes. Pre-Alpha list is in the op of this thread. It still has Tornadus, though.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

I used Mega Audino on bulky offensive teams back in XY, and it worked well there too. I generally used the CM Resttalk set, but I also used the aforementioned offensive Calm Mind set.

 

[Pepeduce]

G-Luke
Yes. Pre-Alpha list is in the op of this thread. It still has Tornadus, though.

Tornadus is banned from RU it won't be here anyway.
I think it's a good idea to create sm NU from feb stats but the TLs must discuss with RU TLs to decide what they gonna do for sm RU first imo.

 

[Machineae]

Honestly I'd trust enough in the NU council to form a tier based on whatever information they currently have available. Everyone on there knows what they're doing and has the best interests of the tier in their hearts.

 

[Evan.]

Honestly I'd trust enough in the NU council to form a tier based on whatever information they currently have available. Everyone on there knows what they're doing

woah woah woah, let's not get too ahead of ourselves here

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

To answer the question of what do we do regarding the NU Alpha, looking through the March Usage Stats thread in Policy Review, I saw that Spirit posted that NU Alpha is unofficial, and I just wanted to bring it up here in this thread that we skip NU Alpha and go straight into the beta phase, while not using a sample of the month's usage stats. I've quoted it here for reference:

I don't agree with using a subsample of the stats. If the full stats aren't there, then there shouldn't be any tier shifts for this month or an NU alpha ladder. I don't see the particular urgency in using a fraction of the stats for this, which are likely to differ from the full stats and thus throw UU/RU out of wack with whatever tier shifts result from it. I would understand the need to do this if NU was going into beta this month, but it's not, and NU alpha is not an official tier. Meanwhile, a tier shift with potentially volatile stats will negatively affect tiers that are actually official and have been tiering. I don't think the tradeoff for a messy ladder for an unofficial tier is worth putting official tiers in a potentially bad spot. The only solution that seems best for this to skip over stats for the month, allow RU to exit beta with what it currently has, let the tier shifts that were supposed to occur this month happen the next, and allow NU to skip over alpha and go into beta the following month as well. This would keep mostly everything on course, including not pushing PU back a month, while keeping the other tiers in a stable position instead of gambling with a small sample of stats that could result in some pretty wacky tier shifts.

I'm just going to say that I agree with this, and it potentially seems like the best solution with Gen VII tiers being developed.

In regards to the two options that Fizz brought up:
1. Probably not ideal, because we'll have to wait a long while for the tiers to be complete.
2. That's probably the best way to go if NU was going into beta, but alas, it is not.

 

[Disjunction]

Yeah, at this point i think most of us have accepted we aren't getting nu alpha this month. I imagine the biggest obstacle for us to overcome is ensuring nu beta happens next month.

If we ended up with an nu alpha ladder made from feb stats, I bet most of us would be happy, but that's fairly unlikely. I, for one, am trying to look forward instead of being disappointed lol

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Shame, was looking forward to playing NU, but better a job done well that a job rushed. The problem with going straight to beta phase is that you'd have to start banning stuff right off the bat, whereas if you've gone through the Alpha stage you'd have roughly a month's results to work with. In some cases (like Kyurem in RU) it's obvious from a glance at the mon's typing, stats, ability and movepool. However, apart from Durant (and maybe Machamp) nothing in the OP seems overpowered on paper.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Shame, was looking forward to playing NU, but better a job done well that a job rushed. The problem with going straight to beta phase is that you'd have to start banning stuff right off the bat, whereas if you've gone through the Alpha stage you'd have roughly a month's results to work with. In some cases (like Kyurem in RU) it's obvious from a glance at the mon's typing, stats, ability and movepool. However, apart from Durant (and maybe Machamp) nothing in the OP seems overpowered on paper.

That's only if we use UU's tiering system.