Metagame SM NU Alpha Discussion (read post #153)

[Marrrrrrrrrr]

The problem with going straight to beta phase is that you'd have to start banning stuff right off the bat, whereas if you've gone through the Alpha stage you'd have roughly a month's results to work with.

But we had a few months results to work with.........

It doesn't make a difference on whether or not Alpha is had by this point, since technically NU is already in Alpha, because the RU stats were out and you could have battles with people in RU but without using the Pokemon that are RU by usage. Really, the only difference that having an Alpha creates is that there's a ladder, but who cares about that by this point? I certainly don't care about getting Top 500 in an incredibly unbalanced metagame that's not even official.

Sorry if I sound harsh but I just think that having Alpha next month is really unnecessary.

 

[Machineae]

Yeah, at this point i think most of us have accepted we aren't getting nu alpha this month. I imagine the biggest obstacle for us to overcome is ensuring nu beta happens next month.

If we ended up with an nu alpha ladder made from feb stats, I bet most of us would be happy, but that's fairly unlikely. I, for one, am trying to look forward instead of being disappointed lol

Forreal, I agree with everything here lol. I think the majority of people just want SOMETHING. Like a definitive date for release so we can keep positive.

I don't think anyone dreamed we'd be waiting until possibly May (if not later) but after an intentional and accidental delay here we are.

 

[Khaytra]

Tbh if NU isn't ready by early next month, maybe we could look into viability tiering instead of usage tiering? Like, those Pokémon which aren't ranked highly in RU can just drop. I know it's not ideal or in line with the bulk of Smogon philosophy, but it is a solution if there are no stats to use. When RBY was remaking its UU tier, we didn't really have a strong enough sample set, and so I believe they used a cutoff of C or lower on the VR and just straight declared all of it UU. (Which is how like Dragonite got in.)

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Right now, I still think making NU from February's usage stats would be the best solution. It's still not great, but it's the lesser of the evils. Right now I can't see any other way to do it. I don't think doing it by Viability is a good idea - the fact that something isn't viable in one tier doesn't mean it wouldn't break another. Psychic Arceus would likely break OU, for example.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Right now, I still think making NU from February's usage stats would be the best solution. It's still not great, but it's the lesser of the evils. Right now I can't see any other way to do it. I don't think doing it by Viability is a good idea - the fact that something isn't viable in one tier doesn't mean it wouldn't break another. Psychic Arceus would likely break OU, for example.

I think skipping NU Alpha would be best. You do realize NU Alpha is an unofficial ladder, and doing tier shifts for that would throw everything else out of whack.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

I'm not proposing doing the other shifts by February's stats - just creating NU from February's RU stats. I think you're right, skipping Alpha does seem like the best solution right now.

 

[Jasper]

When the April Fools' joke isn't a joke anymore...

: (

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Lately I've been trying to find some people to help me test out teams, but so far no luck. I tried playing RU with an NU team, but it was like bringing a knife to a gun fight. So I had an idea. I could start a thread similar to the Research Weeks, people could make a fresh alt with the prefix NU (E.g. NU Chrystal), the people interested could go to the NU room on Showdown, and create our own mini tier. Obviously it's no substitute for the real thing, and do challenges and test teams. Would you be interested in something like that?

 

[poh]

Lately I've been trying to find some people to help me test out teams, but so far no luck. I tried playing RU with an NU team, but it was like bringing a knife to a gun fight. So I had an idea. I could start a thread similar to the Research Weeks, people could make a fresh alt with the prefix NU (E.g. NU Chrystal), the people interested could go to the NU room on Showdown, and create our own mini tier. Obviously it's no substitute for the real thing, and do challenges and test teams. Would you be interested in something like that?

I think the main issue is that no one is really bothered atm to build teams based on old stats. We already had a speculative meta but that died down after a bit.
Even though we kinda have an idea what could drop etc I think it's just better to wait it out.

 

[Skelos]

Cheers to the new server, hopefully NU stats could be retrieved easier now and be out this month. S/O to all the guys who worked for it.

 

[Kalalokki]

Well the stats are not on the new server(?) so usage might be coming in June, since May stats start collecting and will be good now.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Well the stats are not on the new server(?) so usage might be coming in June, since May stats start collecting and will be good now.

To be fair they always took around a week to process anyway. Personally I think we should just take March as a lost cause and only gather the stats for April. I don't think it would matter anyway.

 

[Kalalokki]

To be fair they always took around a week to process anyway. Personally I think we should just take March as a lost cause and only gather the stats for April. I don't think it would matter anyway.

I mean the April stats are in the same position as the March ones are, doubt either of them are gonna be usable even now.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

I mean the April stats are in the same position as the March ones are, doubt either of them are gonna be usable even now.

Seriously? I thought it was just that the server had gone crazy and they were having problems.

This is getting ridiculous.

 

[Teddeh]

like this post if you want nu alpha soon!!
or like this post if you don't care!

 

[Finchinator]

like this post if you want nu alpha soon!!
or like this post if you don't care!

don't like this post

 

[G-Luke]

Cheers to the new server, hopefully NU stats could be retrieved easier now and be out this month. S/O to all the guys who worked for it.

New server? Since when? Is it the same domain name?

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Realistically, can we expect to get SM NU in May?

 

[Rennyjesus]

I think April data was also on the old server... If I'm right (I hope not), we're going to get NU in June... however I still feel that NU should have Alpha, to clearly identify some broken mons, because the player base had been pretty low until now IMO!

 

[yogi]

I think April data was also on the old server... If I'm right (I hope not), we're going to get NU in June... however I still feel that NU should have Alpha, to clearly identify some broken mons, because the player base had been pretty low until now IMO!

As much as an alpha would be a nice thing, it is almost certainly not going to happen. NU has already been pushed back enough and things like an actual Sub-thread and such really just need to happen.

Realistically, can we expect to get SM NU in May?

At this point in time we know nothing, and even May seems like a stretch if they couldn't get April or March stats from the old servers.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Then why don't we just create NU alpha from February's RU stats? I know that's not ideal, but right now it's the best solution. Waiting it out isn't an option, as we're already a month behind schedule and there's no guarantee it'll get any better.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Then why don't we just create NU alpha from February's RU stats. I know that's not ideal, but right now it's the best solution. Waiting it out isn't an option, as we've already a month behind schedule and there's no guarantee it'll get any better.

I totally agree with this... I think it would allow us to at least get a real grasp of the new meta and start shaping it through quick bans, while May data can then give us a beta with some major threats quick banned in the first weeks and then some aditional ones near the end of Beta...

 

[Machineae]

The longer we wait the more people we're going to lose in the tier. It's not easy to return to playing after such a long wait and plenty of people just won't come back at all, and the amount of people I've seen in the room the few times I've been there 20-30 seems like an indication of that to me.

Its already so hard to wait for a few months for a tier to come up but this wait has been ridiculous and although its not anyones fault, action needs to be taken.

 

[yogi]

I totally agree with this... I think it would allow us to at least get a real grasp of the new meta and start shaping it through quick bans, while May data can then give us a beta with some major threats quick banned in the first weeks and then some aditional ones near the end of Beta...

No, what happens is that you have a month of completely dumb mons without the ability to ban anything until beta. And the stats aren't even at all accurate due to how the bans in Ru beta have reshaped their meta. It'd be a mess and I can guarantee that we will not be forming an alpha from those stats.

The longer we wait the more people we're going to lose in the tier. It's not easy to return to playing after such a long wait and plenty of people just won't come back at all, and the amount of people I've seen in the room the few times I've been there 20-30 seems like an indication of that to me.

Its already so hard to wait for a few months for a tier to come up but this wait has been ridiculous and although its not anyones fault, action needs to be taken.

Yes, it has been far too long; but that is out of our control. The room has been quieter yes, as to be expected from a currently inactive tier, but as soon as we do get the stats and our tier people will play it again, no matter how long that may be.

Waiting is difficult but just be patient. I'd rather wait than have a tier that reassembles nothing of what it will actually be; along with also starting in beta where we can actually handle and deal with broken mons instead of having to sit and deal with them for a month.

I have complete trust that our current tier leaders know what's best for the tier.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

No, what happens is that you have a month of completely dumb mons without the ability to ban anything until beta. And the stats aren't even at all accurate due to how the bans in Ru beta have reshaped their meta. It'd be a mess and I can guarantee that we will not be forming an alpha from those stats.


Yes, it has been far too long; but that is out of our control. The room has been quieter yes, as to be expected from a currently inactive tier, but as soon as we do get the stats and our tier people will play it again, no matter how long that may be.

Waiting is difficult but just be patient. I'd rather wait than have a tier that reassembles nothing of what it will actually be; along with also starting in beta where we can actually handle and deal with broken mons instead of having to sit and deal with them for a month.

I have complete trust that our current tier leaders know what's best for the tier.

Disagree. If we just went straight into Beta phase, it would still take time to establish what was broken, so no matter what you'd still be playing with broken stuff in the tier. And even if Alpha was full of broken shit, so what? The UU Alpha had Charizard Y, Volcarona, Salamence, Tornadus-T, Weavile, Serperior, Azumarill and both Thunduruses (Thundurii?). The RU Alpha had Tornadus, Veonomoth, Kyurem, Suicune, Bewear, Hawlucha, Crawdaunt and Talonflame. I'm probably missing some, but Alpha ladders commonly have broken mons. Going into Alpha now would give us a month's data to work with, so when Beta came along we could just get straight to the banning. That also means we can get PU back on track.

If it was a case of waiting for a week or two, I'd be fine with that. But we're already a month behind schedule, and there is no sign we're getting the usage stats any time soon. So let's make the best of a bad situation and get the tier started already.