Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[RS25802580]

And my point is that it'll be great to actually face those teams instead of the same hyper offense repeatedly. I complain about HO because it is an eyesore. There's a good chance that it's what others feel when they mention said playstyle.

That it's my least favorite playstyle adds to it.

Heck, I don't believe I said anything about other playstyles not being viable. I love playing against stall. Weird, huh? That's because it's a change of pace between rapidly changing weather, Arch (just gonna drop the name), entei things, fucking fairy thunder dragons...there's.much to prepare for. Team building is a chore, and I am NOT a 2000 player, which makes things much harder for me.

Respectfully (no sarcasm seriously, I'm too tired and crabby to find the thesaurus), I feel you've actually proven mine. I've outlined my complaints with this meta, all personal, some shared. They weren't empty complaining. They're my experiences playing this game.

In that case I’d recommended taking a break from OU, if you haven’t already.

By all objective measures the current meta is doing fine:
- All teamstyles are viable
- No one mon is too blatantly overwhelming, as evidenced by recent surveys
- There are more options to chose from given the recent influx of mons

Your complaints are valid, but they are far more indicative of your personal preferences than the actual heath of the meta. It’s valid that you don’t like HO, but there is also objectively nothing wrong with a lot of HO as long as other playstyles are also viable. You mention team building is a chore because there’s so much to prepare for. But you could always check out the successful teams on RMT. Or keep in mind that making a successful original team is supposed to be challenging in a competitive meta.

My original point was that no matter how healthy the meta is by objective standards, there will always be some people who dislike it because of personal preference. That’s cool. My problem is when those people frame their complaints as a meta issue, even when the meta is healthy.

Hope you can find a tier you enjoy or take a refreshing break from mons.

 

[mrsuslawl]

low ladder is beautiful

 

[Kenpwnchi]

If Archy doesn't get banned, I swear to fo god famski. Smogon OU getting Karen cancelled.

 

[Eeveeto]

Okay I'm sorry to ask again but I'm really not that imaginative. Why the hell is Treads good on rain all of a sudden? What does it have over Tusk? I took a sample rain team and jumped on the ladder after some time off, switched my Treads into Arch and then realize they hadnt even given it EQ? Like I fail to see how it synergizes with Peli and Arch and Barra. Sorry and thank you.

Ground Steel is objectively a better defensive typing than Ground Fight. The rest of Treads atributes are worse vs the meta than Tusks one, but it has Volt Switch, higher speed, actual Special bulk and ability to kill itself with Steel Beam when needed. Ground Steel has perfect defensive sinergy with Water Flying (Pelipper), I have used Gyarados/Pelipper + Excadrill cores across several generations after all.

 

[powergo1]

Okay I'm sorry to ask again but I'm really not that imaginative. Why the hell is Treads good on rain all of a sudden? What does it have over Tusk? I took a sample rain team and jumped on the ladder after some time off, switched my Treads into Arch and then realize they hadnt even given it EQ? Like I fail to see how it synergizes with Peli and Arch and Barra. Sorry and thank you.

Treads is used as a ground type spinner for rain teams, and over Tusk it's faster along with having Volt Switch for pivoting. Steel typing also lets it switch in on Raging Bolt outside of rain, plus is neutral vs Grassy Glide I suppose.

 

[sims796]

In that case I’d recommended taking a break from OU, if you haven’t already.

By all objective measures the current meta is doing fine:
- All teamstyles are viable
- No one mon is too blatantly overwhelming, as evidenced by recent surveys
- There are more options to chose from given the recent influx of mons

Your complaints are valid, but they are far more indicative of your personal preferences than the actual heath of the meta. It’s valid that you don’t like HO, but there is also objectively nothing wrong with a lot of HO as long as other playstyles are also viable. You mention team building is a chore because there’s so much to prepare for. But you could always check out the successful teams on RMT. Or keep in mind that making a successful original team is supposed to be challenging in a competitive meta.

My original point was that no matter how healthy the meta is by objective standards, there will always be some people who dislike it because of personal preference. That’s cool. My problem is when those people frame their complaints as a meta issue, even when the meta is healthy.

Hope you can find a tier you enjoy or take a refreshing break from mons.

This Finch post sums up my feelings on the current meta, despite us being worlds apart in elo.

.

Regarding the current metagame and how it can improve from its current, volatile status:

Detailed better than I. Far better, now that I look at it again. Despite this being a meta with multiple viable playstyles. All of these opinions were mentioned by many other people here in some form or another. We've had more than a few domineering threats dumped on us and it's a mad dash to try and keep up. This is both my personal opinion and a valid critique on the current meta. I also wholeheartedly agree with their not being an overwhelming singular mon, as there has been several imo, but that's something I don't feel qualified to give specifics, the ones I've mentioned are my personal pet peeve.


Again, I'll always take umbrage at the "loudest complainers" remark. I've found myself agreeing with quite a few posts regarding the state of this meta, their detailed thoughts were very helpful in guiding my own.

 

[KamenOH]

Since u don't have treads you probably want boots on Kyurem, stealth rock kinda fucks this team either way though w Pelipper as well as skewda repeatedly coming in, may want to just use the NJNP team but I like that you squeezed Kyurem in there

What's the Ninja SMP team for rain? Sounds interesting, and im guessing it either swaps out Kyu or Bolt for Treads, which yeah not having a spinner on a revolving door of a team is kinda stupid in hindsight.

Edit: damn, just realized sample teams are, yknow, a thing. I got pretty close just winging what id think a good rain team would be. Gonna try and find some documentation on how to use this team beyond, and i quote, "lead treads SR eject Pelipper Rain turn 1 into Arch/Barra depending on opponent," because if i want to actually make reqs for once, i cant be that simple can i?

 

[ianlazerbeem]

wtf are you talking about I have not seen comfey a single time and low ladder has a fucking fetish for stored power

What are you talking about? No one is talking about a Comfey ban in OU, and if you're talking about a lower tier, why are you bringing it up in the OU discussion thread? Stored power has been very annoying over this gen, but mostly has fallen off with DLC 2 due to the presence of many more immediate and powerful threats, as well as a lot more dark types dropping into the tier.

People who have not seen a single SPL replay and only post about their own ladder experiences. No one is using Comfey on low ladder bc it's a high skill floor, useless Mon if played poorly, it's high level games where it's taking advantage of the fact that it's difficult to prepare for while accounting for the litany of more common and pressing threats. Like many other cheap stored power Pokémon it's greatly elevated by Terrain and overall the game would be fine at worst, likely better without being able to cheese with this idiotic move.

 

[FayaWizard]

People who have not seen a single SPL replay and only post about their own ladder experiences. No one is using Comfey on low ladder bc it's a high skill floor, useless Mon if played poorly, it's high level games where it's taking advantage of the fact that it's difficult to prepare for while accounting for the litany of more common and pressing threats. Like many other cheap stored power Pokémon it's greatly elevated by Terrain and overall the game would be fine at worst, likely better without being able to cheese with this idiotic move.

If we banned “cheese”, quick claw would’ve been thrown out of the tier long ago. I did keep track of SPL, and I don’t know why you’re trying to imply that I’m nothing but a low ladder noob, but Comfey has not made anywhere near a significant impact on OU to warrant discussion on a stored power ban. And even if it did, then we would simply ban Comfey, because stored power hasn’t been broken on the vast majority of Pokémon. Annoying? Of course. Cheesy? You bet. But it’s not banworthy.

 

[Heatranator]

Okay, before I start this post, I will say that this is not to villify the OU council's decision in any way. In this meta I will happily take any decision to nerf rain and if I am wrong about Arch not being the sole problem, I will eat my words. I simply just wanted to try rain teams without Archaludon and see how well it did.

So, I made a post earlier saying I would try rain without arch, and my experiences were decent. The team for reference: https://pokepast.es/2dcd8322e717472d

So, Overqwil is a neccesity on archless rain teams. It gives such a good matchup into common rain problems such as grass types like rillaboom, hydrapple and others. It also is just an overall great mon that can destroy teams if it gets to set up, which it can do with it's great bulk. It's main issue is tusk, but that is easily handled by other teamates. Another thing that overqwil can help with is by running aqua jet, it can free up a slot on barra to run more coverage, I chose ice fang which can screw over many of its usual counter because they are either 4x weak to it or 2x weak to it. The only mons that aren't in this category are wake and dondozo, which can severly restrict counterplay. You do sometimes miss aqua jet's priority, but it is well worth it when a dragonite comes in chipped and it dies to ice fang. Overall, overqwil is a mon that feels underexplored and might see a rise in popularity if arch leaves.

Next up, the decision between zapdos and raging bolt is a hard one, you want zapdos' resistance to fighting type moves to restrict mons such as zamazenta, but sometimes the priority of thunderclap is missed to deal with some speedy threats. I do think that zapdos is the preffered candidate, but it is difficult.

Walking wake is a great mon on rain teams, as it gives a great matchup against dragon types while helping against sun teams. Tera flying hurricane is something that can deal with a lot of annoying mons such as grass types and fighting types. There have been many times when endgames have been won by a wake sweep after pelipper has died and rain has ended, it is still great outside of weather.

Finally, iron treads set may be a little bit unconvential, and I think it could work better physical. However, treads still was a valuable mon that could provide support and switching opportunities.

Overall, my experiences with this team have been interesting, as it shows that rain teams are still great without arch. You do miss the grass resistance on rain teams, but careful teambuilding can help with that. I think that while arch does potentially need to go, it is not the sole problem of rain teams, barra can also severly restrict teams and with a few decisions in teambuilding, you can make these counters die to a coverage move. This has been a fun experience and I think that rain teams should diversify a bit more because they still have a lot of options.

 

[j0nathan]

Okay, before I start this post, I will say that this is not to villify the OU council's decision in any way. In this meta I will happily take any decision to nerf rain and if I am wrong about Arch not being the sole problem, I will eat my words. I simply just wanted to try rain teams without Archaludon and see how well it did.

So, I made a post earlier saying I would try rain without arch, and my experiences were decent. The team for reference: https://pokepast.es/2dcd8322e717472d

So, Overqwil is a neccesity on archless rain teams. It gives such a good matchup into common rain problems such as grass types like rillaboom, hydrapple and others. It also is just an overall great mon that can destroy teams if it gets to set up, which it can do with it's great bulk. It's main issue is tusk, but that is easily handled by other teamates. Another thing that overqwil can help with is by running aqua jet, it can free up a slot on barra to run more coverage, I chose ice fang which can screw over many of its usual counter because they are either 4x weak to it or 2x weak to it. The only mons that aren't in this category are wake and dondozo, which can severly restrict counterplay. You do sometimes miss aqua jet's priority, but it is well worth it when a dragonite comes in chipped and it dies to ice fang. Overall, overqwil is a mon that feels underexplored and might see a rise in popularity if arch leaves.

Next up, the decision between zapdos and raging bolt is a hard one, you want zapdos' resistance to fighting type moves to restrict mons such as zamazenta, but sometimes the priority of thunderclap is missed to deal with some speedy threats. I do think that zapdos is the preffered candidate, but it is difficult.

Walking wake is a great mon on rain teams, as it gives a great matchup against dragon types while helping against sun teams. Tera flying hurricane is something that can deal with a lot of annoying mons such as grass types and fighting types. There have been many times when endgames have been won by a wake sweep after pelipper has died and rain has ended, it is still great outside of weather.

Finally, iron treads set may be a little bit unconvential, and I think it could work better physical. However, treads still was a valuable mon that could provide support and switching opportunities.

Overall, my experiences with this team have been interesting, as it shows that rain teams are still great without arch. You do miss the grass resistance on rain teams, but careful teambuilding can help with that. I think that while arch does potentially need to go, it is not the sole problem of rain teams, barra can also severly restrict teams and with a few decisions in teambuilding, you can make these counters die to a coverage move. This has been a fun experience and I think that rain teams should diversify a bit more because they still have a lot of options.

You are so great, you need to start making RMT's.

 

[Heatranator]

You are so great, you need to start making RMT's.

I actually have done that before, I just take a full day to make them and my squirell brain can not do that.

 

[RaikouLover]

Overall, my experiences with this team have been interesting, as it shows that rain teams are still great without arch. You do miss the grass resistance on rain teams, but careful teambuilding can help with that. I think that while arch does potentially need to go, it is not the sole problem of rain teams, barra can also severly restrict teams and with a few decisions in teambuilding, you can make these counters die to a coverage move. This has been a fun experience and I think that rain teams should diversify a bit more because they still have a lot of options.

Standard rain structures have been around for years and are largely unchanged. In Gen 9, losing Ferrothorn was a huge blow. Typing wise Arch alleviates that somewhat (albeit with less support utility). Rain formula is still:

Pelipper + Swift Swim + Electric Immunity + Bird / Rillaboom Check + Steel

It’s a timeless template.

I think many people new to playing with or against rain are overstating Barraskewda. Swift Swimmers are basically interchangeable with only subtle differences (secondary typing and speed tiers). Swapping Skewda for Basculegion-M or Floatzel won’t change the team at all. Which is why it is pointless to even consider Skewda as problematic.

 

[Heatranator]

Standard rain structures have been around for years and are largely unchanged. In Gen 9, losing Ferrothorn was a huge blow. Typing wise Arch alleviates that somewhat (albeit with less support utility). Rain formula is still:

Pelipper + Swift Swim + Electric Immunity + Bird / Rillaboom Check + Steel

It’s a timeless template.

I think many people new to playing with or against rain are overstating Barraskewda. Swift Swimmers are basically interchangeable with only subtle differences (secondary typing and speed tiers). Swapping Skewda for Basculegion-M or Floatzel won’t change the team at all. Which is why it is pointless to even consider Skewda as problematic.

While yes, I do think that the formula is still good, there are other things that can restrict rain this gen. Something like waterpon is a massive threat to rain and can overpower steel types that would usually be fine against other rain counters. Also, the power difference between the next best swift swimmers is huge, barra's 123 attack vs the next highest swift swimmers in overqwil and drednaws' 115 is a big difference. I'm saying that arch is not the sole problem, it is a problem, but that some diversification is great for tackling problems rain has. I would say that arch is still better for rain than something like overqwil, but if arch goes, rain will still have a ton of options.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

If we banned “cheese”, quick claw would’ve been thrown out of the tier long ago. I did keep track of SPL, and I don’t know why you’re trying to imply that I’m nothing but a low ladder noob, but Comfey has not made anywhere near a significant impact on OU to warrant discussion on a stored power ban. And even if it did, then we would simply ban Comfey, because stored power hasn’t been broken on the vast majority of Pokémon. Annoying? Of course. Cheesy? You bet. But it’s not banworthy.

Stored Power has been banworthy since at least the very beginning of home. Well actually before. Without it there's nothing wrong with Espathra, or Magearna, Terrain teams become much more honest, overall it's like sleep, uncompetitve and we are better off without it. Or should Valiant and Darkrai have been banned after all?

My apologies for making assumptions and drawing conclusions about you without ever having spoken to you, I was being unfair.

 

[KamenOH]

Toxapex is ok into certain HOs, but it really struggles into Slowking-G teams and Gliscor teams while it is no longer great into Rain as it is Archaludon food. Definitely proceed with caution, it fell UU for a reason

Standard rain structures have been around for years and are largely unchanged. In Gen 9, losing Ferrothorn was a huge blow. Typing wise Arch alleviates that somewhat (albeit with less support utility). Rain formula is still:

Pelipper + Swift Swim + Electric Immunity + Bird / Rillaboom Check + Steel

It’s a timeless template.

I think many people new to playing with or against rain are overstating Barraskewda. Swift Swimmers are basically interchangeable with only subtle differences (secondary typing and speed tiers). Swapping Skewda for Basculegion-M or Floatzel won’t change the team at all. Which is why it is pointless to even consider Skewda as problematic.

Weird how its only when the template gets super popular and good that people think its ban worthy, kinda like BDSP rain. Oh well, might as well use it while i can

 

[Vaporwavvve]

Finchinator question for you. I agree with your take that there are too many threats in OU. Do you/the council regret the decision to allow so many mons like Volc, Deo-S, Kyurem, Gliscor, Moon, etc. I know it’s debatable if any of those mons are broken right now, but they all, in addition to new threats DLC-2 brought, contribute to stress in the team-builder. It doesn’t seem like QBs or suspecting can properly address how polarized the meta is (either heavy offense/HO or stall/semi-stall). I don’t mean this as a critique as I think you’ve done a great job and appreciate your transparency, but just feels like the meta will remain most accessible to very high level players and those who only use offense.

 

[Finchinator]

Finchinator question for you. I agree with your take that there are too many threats in OU. Do you/the council regret the decision to allow so many mons like Volc, Deo-S, Kyurem, Gliscor, Moon, etc. I know it’s debatable if any of those mons are broken right now, but they all, in addition to new threats DLC-2 brought, contribute to stress in the team-builder. It doesn’t seem like QBs or suspecting can properly address how polarized the meta is (either heavy offense/HO or stall/semi-stall). I don’t mean this as a critique as I think you’ve done a great job and appreciate your transparency, but just feels like the meta will remain most accessible to very high level players and those who only use offense.

No, I do not regret unbanning them. Everything we dropped was only dropped as response to clear majority support from the qualified playerbase in a survey followed by a council vote, meaning that they had to get through multiple levels of clearance to reach this point. It was the right process to adhere to even if I wish a few of them were Uber at this point. At the end of the day, I can only adhere to the best processes and respond in the best way possible -- it is impossible to always predict the future and perfect a metagame on abbreviated time. I do think the tier will continue to get better as the generation moves forward, too, though.

 

[Moyashi]

Stored Power has been banworthy since at least the very beginning of home. Well actually before.

It hasn’t. The broken abusers have been banners, of which there are few, while the ones like Garticuno have been adapted to and their presence became significantly less noteworthy or problematic. The worst the move can be called is annoying or match up fishy at times, but to consistently succeed with it with mons like Comfey for example, you need a certain level of play and skill which certainly cannot be something you’d call uncompetitive.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Finchinator question for you. I agree with your take that there are too many threats in OU. Do you/the council regret the decision to allow so many mons like Volc, Deo-S, Kyurem, Gliscor, Moon, etc. I know it’s debatable if any of those mons are broken right now, but they all, in addition to new threats DLC-2 brought, contribute to stress in the team-builder. It doesn’t seem like QBs or suspecting can properly address how polarized the meta is (either heavy offense/HO or stall/semi-stall). I don’t mean this as a critique as I think you’ve done a great job and appreciate your transparency, but just feels like the meta will remain most accessible to very high level players and those who only use offense.

For every Kyurem and Roaring Moon that drop, we get mons that are having good effects on the meta like Deoxys-Speed and Gliscor, as well as Darkrai, as those 3 have not been overpowered at all and seem to be healthy presences that have made the meta better by being here. Those 3 as well as Deoxys-D were good drops overall.

Also out of the stuff people are saying is OP between Arch, Roaring Moon, Kyurem, and Gouging Fire, I think Gouging Fire is the least problematic, and actually feels like a good prescence despite needing to be ready for it when building your team. Compared to the other 3 while it can do silly stuff you need to be able to set up and position well over a few turns to achieve that, and fat sets have their own counterplay. Definitely doesn't feel broken at all to me, but it's definitely a really good mon that can be a good sweeper, or a fat beatstick that can keep stuff like Zamazenta in check, definitely despite the silly calcs feels healthy to me, unlike the other 3 who are all varying degrees of broken

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Stored Power has been banworthy since at least the very beginning of home. Well actually before. Without it there's nothing wrong with Espathra, or Magearna, Terrain teams become much more honest, overall it's like sleep, uncompetitve and we are better off without it. Or should Valiant and Darkrai have been banned after all?

there's an entire type that stored power literally cannot damage and it happens to be one of the best typings in the game right now

 

[Vaporwavvve]

For every Kyurem and Roaring Moon that drop, we get mons that are having good effects on the meta like Deoxys-Speed and Gliscor, as well as Darkrai, as those 3 have not been overpowered at all and seem to be healthy presences that have made the meta better by being here. Those 3 as well as Deoxys-D were good drops overall.

Also out of the stuff people are saying is OP between Arch, Roaring Moon, Kyurem, and Gouging Fire, I think Gouging Fire is the least problematic, and actually feels like a good prescence despite needing to be ready for it when building your team. Compared to the other 3 while it can do silly stuff you need to be able to set up and position well over a few turns to achieve that, and fat sets have their own counterplay. Definitely doesn't feel broken at all to me, but it's definitely a really good mon that can be a good sweeper, or a fat beatstick that can keep stuff like Zamazenta in check, definitely despite the silly calcs feels healthy to me, unlike the other 3 who are all varying degrees of broken

Interesting. I think Gouging Fire is low key the most broken Mon outside of Arch right now, as there’s no way to prep for it in the team-builder. It beats everything if it’s under sun, the only thing you can do is set rocks and hope you sequence properly.

I agree I find Gliscor and Deo-S annoying but not broken. Maybe that will change though.

 

[Vaporwavvve]

No, I do not regret unbanning them. Everything we dropped was only dropped as response to clear majority support from the qualified playerbase in a survey followed by a council vote, meaning that they had to get through multiple levels of clearance to reach this point. It was the right process to adhere to even if I wish a few of them were Uber at this point. At the end of the day, I can only adhere to the best processes and respond in the best way possible -- it is impossible to always predict the future and perfect a metagame on abbreviated time. I do think the tier will continue to get better as the generation moves forward, too, though.

That’s a very fair response. You’re a good tier leader.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

there's an entire type that stored power literally cannot damage and it happens to be one of the best typings in the game right now

Very interesting, hopefully those Stored Power users don't carry Draining Kiss or other fairy or fighting coverage as that can be an issue for these types. Luckily no Pokémon with stored power can learn these moves.

 

[Heatranator]

Interesting. I think Gouging Fire is low key the most broken Mon outside of Arch right now, as there’s no way to prep for it in the team-builder. It beats everything if it’s under sun, the only thing you can do is set rocks and hope you sequence properly.

Out offensing gouging fire is great, as the insane numbers people put up is adamant, which means you can't outspeed something like tusk. Any mon that can outspeed fire is great as the can usually ko it back or heavily damage it. The set up variant also has issues as if it is forced out in any way, it is much worse off and will usually be somewhat dead weight. It also struggles with coverage, as it needs dd, flare blitz, dragon move and then has to fit a fourth move in. This is between e-quake, morning sun and bulwark. Each have their applications, though bulwark is the least used. If it has morning sun, it is stuffed by heatran and bulky water types. If it runs e-quake, then it is very easy to chip down. Both sets also struggle with hazards, as you said, which is big for this meta.
It is a great mon, but it struggles a lot in this meta, if rain gets worse it could get problematic, but we will see.