Revisions to the Threat List

Any Metagross that doesn't have Agility won't do a whole lot to a weakened team. At most, it probably will get one kill because it's so damn slow. Mixed Kingdra, on the other hand, outspeeds everything up to and including ScarfChomp, so that can do serious damage. I think the threat list should define how well something can sweep teams without a counter as well, and how well they perform late-game, or else you might not call Swords Dance Lucario a threat because it's not going to be sweeping teams if it gets a Swords Dance early-game.
 
BLAZIKEN_57 said:
Any Metagross that doesn't have Agility won't do a whole lot to a weakened team. At most, it probably will get one kill because it's so damn slow. Mixed Kingdra, on the other hand, outspeeds everything up to and including ScarfChomp, so that can do serious damage. I think the threat list should define how well something can sweep teams without a counter as well, and how well they perform late-game, or else you might not call Swords Dance Lucario a threat because it's not going to be sweeping teams if it gets a Swords Dance early-game.
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You are proving the point the pokemon that are weaken the team those are the threats.To be threat it must not depend on other pokemon.

Metagross will take out at least poke per game, in most case it two and half pokemon to three pokemon with out depending on another pokemon.
 
Mixdra definately needs to be on the threat list. Unfortunately, people aren't using it right it seems. I've done some serious sweeping with it, but never have trouble battling it...
 
Well, not just Mixdra, but Kingdra in general is pretty scary. Remember, it's not just a Swift Swimmer, but it's also a Sniper.

Specs Sniper Kingdra is extremely deadly from my experience. Remember, it's one of the few special attackers that can actually bust Blissey with a critical hit, from a neutral typed attack, no less.

It's also one of the bulkiest Dragons there, because unlike the other Dragons, it doesn't have a 4x weakness, in fact, it only has 1 weakness (dragon), but 2 4x resistances (Fire, Water) which makes it very hard to stop, especially if it gets Swift Swim activated, or if it starts firing off Specs Hydro Pumps. 75/95/95 defenses allow it to take a huge beating while dishing out heavy damage, even to teams that prepare for it, because Water/Dragon is resisted by a total of 2 pokemon (Empoleon/Shedinja).

Water/Dragon is one of the most dangerous attacking combos in the game, and also an incredible defensive type, and Kingdra takes advantage of both very well, which is why I feel it should be added to the threat list.
 
Ok, I've read every post in this thread at least twice, and here's the final list for now. If anyone has any serious problems with it post (you still have to give a good reason though!).

Tyranitar
Gyarados
Infernape
Azelf
Electivire
Heracross
Salamence
Togekiss
Gengar
Garchomp
Lucario
Starmie
Weavile
Dugtrio
PorygonZ
Machamp
Snorlax
Zapdos
Suicune
Breloom
Slaking
Ninjask
Metagross
Heatran
Jirachi
Dragonite
Mamoswine
Gallade
Yanmega
Kingdra
Roserade
 
Hmm...I'd like to raise a case for Scizor.

The Choice Band version is particularly dangerous due to it's ability to constantly ping out STAB U-Turns from that 591 Attack stat. He also isn't completely stopped by an opposing Skarmory as he can Pursuit opponents - due to Technician, he has the luxury of being able to OHKO Gengar, Azelf and Alakazam regardless of switch. Quick Attack is a great addition for picking off weakened foes, hitting the likes of Infernape for 49.15% - 57.68%.

There's many other sets he can run too, with the Swords Dance/QuickAttack and Baton Pass versions being especially common. And he did come in 35th position last month so that is more than common enough to consider preparing for.
 
I agree with Lee about scizor.
And ninjask is not a threat. Remenber the reason why tauros(normal stab CB) is not a threat? Cause most teams have stell types to defend against dragon moves, so, most teams have a hazer, that deals with ninjask, and the most popular lead (i'm lokking at you gyarados"!) have taunt, so ninjask is nothing to fear.
 
I'm also questioning the threat level of Ninjask. You can say that Ninjask is the number one reason to use phazing moves but you can also say Raikou is the number one reason to use Seismic Toss Blissey. <_<

If the "counter" to those are so common, should the threat still be listed?
 
Little Green Yoda said:
If the "counter" to those are so common, should the threat still be listed?
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Yes, for the simple reason that if for some reason you don't use a pHazer or priority move on your team, Ninjask can pose a huge threat. Having it on the threat list reminds people of some of the reasons pHazers and priority are so important.

IMO, the main reason a Threat List would exist is to help people prepare their team for powerful Pokemon that could otherwise wreck an unprepared team, not just to list those Pokemon that can damage an already good team.

Which is why I think Rhyperior should be on the list. QuakeSlide STAB + huge defenses + 140 Base Att + Solid Rock + Rock typing (SS SpD boost) means this thing can hit anything hard. access to other powerful moves such as Hammer Arm, Megahorn (Hi Bronzong! Hi Claydol!), and Avalanche means it can put a serious dent into just about anything. Dual 4x weaks and slower-than-molasses-in-January speed do hurt it, but that doesn't change the fact that Rhyperior is a powerful Pokemon.
 
Jump, what makes Jirachi threatening? ;/ It's not an offensive threat but for setting up Calm Minds against Blissey, except it did that a lot better in Advance without Choice Scarf everywhere and new pokemon around that can easily clean it up even if it gets going (Weavile and Yanmega being faster and Heatran flat-out tanking it with its strong defenses and lack of weakness to Jirachi's attacks, for some examples). Celebi is a far greater threat as Recover allows it to set up easier and it can Baton Pass the buff off to something else (for that matter, it can Swords Dance too), Jirachi damn near requires Blissey to exist before it can set itself up and is only a self-contained threat at that.
 
I would also like to know what makes Jirachi an offensive threat. The only thing it has going for it is Calm Minding. Most of the time Jirachi is better off helping the rest of the team out with stuff like passing Wishes, putting up Reflects / Light Screens, paralyzing with Body Slam, Thunder or Thunderwave, ect.
 
Doom Desire might be part of the reason Jirachi is a threat. (I'll buy that when pigs fly, however.) The more likely reason is Serene Grace, Body Slam/Thunder Wave, and Zen Headbutt. Togekiss is still more annoying in the paraflinching sense, but I, for one, would still like more than a 45% chance of attacking.

Oh, and Jirachi still hits 448 Atk/SpA with Band/Specs (assuming Jolly/Timid Natures).
 
matheusfullmetal said:
I agree with Lee about scizor.
And ninjask is not a threat. Remenber the reason why tauros(normal stab CB) is not a threat? Cause most teams have stell types to defend against dragon moves, so, most teams have a hazer, that deals with ninjask, and the most popular lead (i'm lokking at you gyarados"!) have taunt, so ninjask is nothing to fear.
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The thing about this is that if Ninjask isn't a threat because of phazing, then neither is Scizor for the same reason because the same pokemon in Skarmory and Hippowdon would be hazing it, coupled with the fact that the CBer is largely walled by Skarmory largely walled by Skarmory even with U-turn. Yes, it poses the threat of Pursuit as a CBer, but it is largely outclassed by the STAB users of this move. And it is outclassed by Ninjask as a BPer because Ninjask literally doesn't have to do anything but Protect then Pass because of Speed Boost.

Again, I'm trying to only use the arguments posted in this thread for my own. I feel that if I keep Ninjask on this list and not Scizor, the same threat coverage will be achieved.

Mr.E said:
Jump, what makes Jirachi threatening?
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While it is much more defensively minded than it was in Advance (as it should be), it does get Grass Knot to go with the Thunder that allows it to still be threatening on the offensive side. I do personally want to keep Celebi on there, though, but am less inclined to do so because of Skarmory I guess. It's tough to assess these legitimate threats when people aren't using the actual threatening sets...or the pokemon themselves in some cases, but as I said about Slaking, that doesn't mean it is not a threat.
 
Jiggy-Ninja said:
Which is why I think Rhyperior should be on the list. QuakeSlide STAB + huge defenses + 140 Base Att + Solid Rock + Rock typing (SS SpD boost) means this thing can hit anything hard. access to other powerful moves such as Hammer Arm, Megahorn (Hi Bronzong! Hi Claydol!), and Avalanche means it can put a serious dent into just about anything. Dual 4x weaks and slower-than-molasses-in-January speed do hurt it, but that doesn't change the fact that Rhyperior is a powerful Pokemon.
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Except that if you're ready for Garchomp and Tyranitar, you can make a case you're ready for Rhyperior. On the defensive side, if you're ready for Hippodown on top of those other two, you're ready for Rhyperior.

Worse for Rhyperior, there's no reason you wouldn't be ready for Garchomp/Tyranitar/Hippodown on a competitive team. Look at Shoddy Stats for January:

Weighted Usage:

1. Garchomp (56752876 points)
5. Tyranitar (42191161 points)
23. Hippowdon (18128272 points)

Vs.

55. Rhyperior (7851602 points)

If you're ready for Garchomp, Tyranitar, and Hippodown, what does Rhyperior bring to the table that is new?
 
Cress and Bronzong counter Garchomp to some extent, but they really cannot counter Rhyperior, since they would eat CB Megahorns. Skarmory would hate taking a stab Stone Edge.

You don't really "counter" Hippowdon, it is a wall.

Stuff that walls TTar tends to rely on a Rock resist, not a Ground resist. So while Hitmontop is an excellent TTar counter, it can't just switch in randomly on Rhyperior like it can on TTar.

I'm not saying that it is superior to any of these, just that it hits extremely and shouldn't be ignored.
 
Ninjask deserves to be on the list still. Yeah, it can be hazed/phazed etc, but it can sweep teams by itself, or baton pass out to a pokemon that can. Most d/p teams don't even carry phazers.

Scizor is very similar to Ninjask, I agree, but in use it is very different. Scizor can be very bulky, and with only one weakness and a Steel typing (which means Scizor is neutral to SR instead of being 4x weak to it), it is very easy to get in. Scizor's Technician trait is extremely useful. Also, Scizor can actually pull off a Roost set to give it more time to Baton Pass, or more time to sweep. Scizor is much more similar to Mawile than Ninjask, really, and the threat presented by a bulky baton passer (read: Vaporeon, Umbreon) is large enough to warrant a spot on the threat list by itself, even when you ignore everything else that Scizor does well. Heck, Scizor can even run a Reversal set with quite a bit of success.

I'd also like to make a case for Raikou. Even though it really only has one set, it works amazingly well. Electric typing is awesome, Raikou makes a great counter to Togekiss, Starmie, Jirachi and Zapdos (all of whom are on the list). It is very easy to get in with its high HP and SpDef. It's speed stat is perfect for stopping Gengar and Infernape from wrecking entire teams, and its base 115 SpAtk is massive. Also, Thunderbolt is one of the best attacks in the game, which Raikou gets STAB on. It, however has been hindered by Toxic Spikes and the ever so common Choice Scarf. I'm not sure if it's common enough to make this list, but it is certainly deserving of consideration. I would like to see what other people feel, since poor Raikou tends to get ignored in d/p.

gmax said:
You don't really "counter" Hippowdon, it is a wall.
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A wall with 112 base attack and a STAB EQ to go along with Curse, monstrous def and HP, and Slack Off to boot.

EDIT: I didn't realize that Celebi had been taken off of the list. I'm not sure why, as it is one of the best Gyarados counters in the game with Grass Knot, it gets Thunder Wave (for some reason), it is one of the few reliable Fighting or Ground resists, it is a very legitimate counter to Garchomp, it can outstall Blissey with Leech Seed, it is an amazing counter to bulky Water types, the CM set is still one of the toughest sets to stop out of any pokemon, Recover keeps it around forever, it has one of the best abilities in the game, and it can use Baton Pass in conjunction with Swords Dance and Calm Mind. Oh yeah, and it can set up Stealth Rock. On top of all this, Dugtrio doesn't have its precious HP Bug to get rid of it easily anymore, eliminating its best counter in the transition to d/p. It is unpredictable, and it is actually capable of pulling off any set you can think of with its massive movepool. Ground, Fighting, Water, Psychic resists are all extremely important. Celebi is getting more and more common, and with good reason. The "Skarmory walls it" issue isn't that big, Skarmory walled Celebi in adv and gsc too. Just because a pokemon has a common counter doesn't mean it is not a threat. Gliscor (which isnt on the list either for some reason) is one of the most commonly used pokemon, and Heracross is still on the list.
 
gmax said:
You don't really "counter" Hippowdon, it is a wall.
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I don't mean Counter as much as "Be Ready." Hippodown is showing up more and more often on Sand Storm teams. With the popularity of such teams, its a good idea to be ready for the usual suspects.
 
Gliscor would be on the defensive threat list obviously. Though with the Ninjask being on the offensive list solely because of BP, you have to wonder if BP Gliscor is worth a spot as well. Not very common of a set but having access to Taunt and BP has to mean something, right?
 
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