Little Cup Metagame

i would be interested in doing this maybe. i've trained almost all of my pokemon though, so i'd have to rebreed everything if we were do to an in-game thing...

very interesting metagame either way, loved it on pokemon stadium

have you seen Abra's base stats?

105 SpAtk, 90 Spd? gg, dammit.

kingbattlus said:

i would be interested in doing this maybe. i've trained almost all of my pokemon though, so i'd have to rebreed everything if we were do to an in-game thing...

very interesting metagame either way, loved it on pokemon stadium

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Does anyone know if it would be possible to program this into Shoddy? For the sake of tournaments it would probably be better than wifi, and no breeding complications, as well as a more quickly developed tier list.

Darkflagrance said:

Does anyone know if it would be possible to program this into Shoddy? For the sake of tournaments it would probably be better than wifi, and no breeding complications, as well as a more quickly developed tier list.

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You can already do it on shoddy, shoddy just lacks tiers for it... naturally, you get some minor limitations (such as occasional glitchy moves) but it works okay for the most part.

On a side note, I've been wondering what the max number of EVs in a given stat would be in this format. If I'm right, its somewhat lower than the max 252 normally assumed, and the total EVs might not hit 510 easily. Of course vitamins are usable, and any testing will assume 5 exp shares, battling the lowest level pokemon findable, and a healthy dose of the pokerus virus and the +4 EV bonus items.

If it falls short of its maximum some very powerful moves that would be utterly game breaking (sweeping entire teams) would be more practical in this format. After initial calculations I'm worried about the power that 120 stab moves have in this format, but I need to pour over the level 5 stats and do more damage calculations.

The lowest levels I know are the level 2s on route 201 & 202. Giving us all stats outside Def/SA/SDef from level 2s, and Def from level 3s. On route 203 you can get SA from level 4s, as well as SDef as well from level 4s. Using the +4 EV bonus items is probably more practical, and just dual training on the lower levels.

This could overlap to shoddy as well, since if the number of evs you can attain is short of the maximum (or practical maximum, 232 I think?) the online metagame may not reflect the ingame reality. If the amount that can be gained is more than 132, all of this rambling is pointless naturally. :)

Miao said:

...battling the lowest level pokemon findable...

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This is never a good idea, at least to my knowledge.

Starly (1 Spe) has a base Exp. value of 56, and Bidoof's (1 HP) is 58. The only other Pokemon able to be found in the wild at level 2 are Sentret, Nidoran M, Doduo and Growlithe (1 Atk), Surskit (1 Spe) and Nidoran F (1 HP) via PokeRadar (Growlithe requires FireRed attached, Doduo is found as a swarm, and Nidoran has a 2% chance of being found at level 2.)

Starly and Bidoof still have the lowest base Exp yield of these choices, so you'd want to stick with them... or would you?

Instead, you can catch level 3 Magikarp with the Old Rod, as Magikarp have a rock-bottom base Exp of 20. While a level 2 Starly will yield 16 Exp to be split six ways, a level 3 Magikarp yields ~8.6 Exp. Even if the game rounds Exp up (I'm not entirely sure.), this gives each Pokemon in your party 2 Exp rather than the 3 the Starly would give you.

The 1,600,000-Exp-for-lvl.100 Pokemon are the quickest to hit level 6 at 112 Exp. If Exp. Share rounds up, this means one can battle approximately 55 Magikarps before needing to stop. That means you'll get 8 EVs in your chosen stat (Power _____ and Pokerus), which gets you to 440 total EVs able to be gained from battling wild Pokemon, more if you're aiming for Speed EVs. Take Vitamins into account, and one can definitely reach any possible fullly EVed spread at level 5, given an ample supply of Tamato Berries (to reduce unwanted Spe EVs.)

I didn't even think of battling magikarp O.o That certainly makes anything possible...

Also, don't forget that Nidoran M and Nidoran F reverse their numbers depending on if you're playing Diamond or Pearl.

Here are all the 120 power moves relevant to the format:
Megahorn (Bug) (None can attain STAB)
Blizzard (Ice)
Outrage (Dragon)
Thunder (Electric)
Volt Tackle (Electric)
Zap Cannon (Electric)
Close Combat (Fight)
Focus Blast (Fight)
Superpower (Fight)
Fire Blast (Fire)
Flare Blitz (Fire)
Brave Bird (Flying)
Power Whip (Grass)
Solarbeam (Grass)
Wood Hammer (Grass)
Double-Edge (Normal)
Frustration (Normal)
Return (Normal)
Gunk Shot (Poison)
Hydro Pump (Water)

And these are the pokemon that have the highest SAtk and Atk in the format (Cutoff at 85):
Atk
Cranidos (125)
Scyther (110) (Banned)
Krabby (105)
Carvanha (100)
Anorith (95)
Sneasel (95)
Carvanha (90)
Doduo (85)
Munchlax (85)
Rhyhorn (85)

Murkrow (85/Both)

SAtk
Abra (105)
Tangela (100)
Gastly (100)
Magnemite (95)
Omanyte(90)
Misdreavous (85)
Cacnea (85)
Porygon (85)
Smoochum (85)

The more I look over it, the less I'm worried about these moves, so many pokemon have the potential to be nasty if you max them out that its kinda a moot point, perhaps the format will just have a lot of 1hkos and tons of prediction, making it very offensive. Honestly... the format needs heavy playing to be sure. Anyways, these are probably the nastiest sweepers anyways, so it makes a good point to start breeding ^-~

*edit* I'm working on speed tiers next, however, speed is far more complicated to put together (DDs, Agi, Scarves etc.) so it might be a bit. I'll compile that by actual speed at level 5, so people can get a more accurate picture than the base stats @ 100.

Miao said:

On a side note, I've been wondering what the max number of EVs in a given stat would be in this format. If I'm right, its somewhat lower than the max 252 normally assumed, and the total EVs might not hit 510 easily. Of course vitamins are usable, and any testing will assume 5 exp shares, battling the lowest level pokemon findable, and a healthy dose of the pokerus virus and the +4 EV bonus items.

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The link you provided earlier seems to suggest that 236 is the maximum number of EVs expressed at that level.

Anyway, I like the idea of a Little Cup metagame. I loved it back in Pokemon Stadium 2 despite the computer's constant hax. Low Life Orb recoil also sounds appealing.

Beck said:

The link you provided earlier seems to suggest that 236 is the maximum number of EVs expressed at that level.

Anyway, I like the idea of a Little Cup metagame. I loved it back in Pokemon Stadium 2 despite the computer's constant hax. Low Life Orb recoil also sounds appealing.

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I was only off by four points, I was thinking 232 :P That's kinda buried at the end of that post though. :3

I honestly think the computer is a little too rabidly dependent on moves like doubleteam and minimize...

Miao, what do you mean by "relevant to the format" for the 120 bp moves

I only ask because there are others, most notably, Brave Bird that were left out

(Not that it really matters...just thought i ought to add that one in)

UberMunch said:

Miao, what do you mean by "relevant to the format" for the 120 bp moves

I only ask because there are others, most notably, Brave Bird that were left out

(Not that it really matters...just thought i ought to add that one in)

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I'm having a nightmare of a time digging through the move lists, there isn't really anyplace I can go to just list the moves by attack power (weirdly). So I'm just picking through by hand gathering what I can. There's a few over on gamefaqs, but they're nowhere near comprehensive.

The banned lists I was looking at before banned both tangela and munchlax due to 120 bp stab moves, the moves listed are ones that could be learned by pokemon that could get stab (unless noted otherwise). More a way for checking to see which pokemon that have high attack can get stab moves, and see how many would be banned based on that info. That's why I put the cutoff at 85 for atk/satk. Personally, I'm thinking things will just die really really fast :D

what happened to this thread?

I was really excited about trying out this metagame...
and then it kinda ran dry...

is anyone still interested?

Are useless non-evos like Delibird, Farfetched and Luvdisc allowed? They don't evolve but their stats sure suck.

Angel Diva said:

Are useless non-evos like Delibird, Farfetched and Luvdisc allowed? They don't evolve but their stats sure suck.

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Dunuu... right now the evolution rule is in there just to keep things like say... skarmory or heracross out.

UberMunch said:

what happened to this thread?

I was really excited about trying out this metagame...
and then it kinda ran dry...

is anyone still interested?

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I think quite a few people are intersted, just things slowed down a bit, right now, rl is keeping me from really playing any games, so compiling lists has ground to a halt for me.

I certainly undestand that Miao...

I've got a shitload of exams and such coming up and what am i doing?...

I'm wasting time looking at pokemon forums... but oh well (its more fun and i'm lazy)

I'm definitely interested. I'd be willing to go through and compile a list of Pokemon that would "technically" be legal (meaning I'm assuming that no lowest forms of evolving Pokemon that aren't Scyther are banned).

Return, Frustration, and Zap Cannon don't have 120 power. Thunder has 120 power. You should probably just change that to talk about the best moves in each type.

tgva8889 said:

I'm definitely interested. I'd be willing to go through and compile a list of Pokemon that would "technically" be legal (meaning I'm assuming that no lowest forms of evolving Pokemon that aren't Scyther are banned).

Return, Frustration, and Zap Cannon don't have 120 power. Thunder has 120 power. You should probably just change that to talk about the best moves in each type.

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Hmm... you're right... I'll edit it xD

As far as the list of pokemon allowed, there's already an article written on little cup, you can see the list there. :)

Huh. There is already a list.

Ok. What needs to be done, then? Cause I'm interested in doing something to help the format.

I love this idea :p One thing I'm not sure about; for [pokemon] to use [move], does it have to be able to learn it at level 5 or before? For example, would Cranodis be allowed Head Smash, or would Riolu be allowed Reversal?

Evil Hamster said:

I love this idea :p One thing I'm not sure about; for [pokemon] to use [move], does it have to be able to learn it at level 5 or before? For example, would Cranodis be allowed Head Smash, or would Riolu be allowed Reversal?

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iirc by breeding you can get all Lv up moves at Lv 1, so yes they would be fine.

This could be very helpful for making the speed tiers http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39402

You have to account that some pokemon level up faster than others. It's probably really hard to figure out max EVs gainable in 4 levels.

Little Cup looks fun!

Ok, in an effort to minimize switching threads i have copied the standard sets from the older thread here:

Abra @ Choice Specs/Scarf
Synchronise
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Energy Ball
- Shadow Ball

EVs: 236 SAtk / 196 Spd / 76 HP
Nature: Modest (+SAtk, -Atk) or Timid (+Spd, -Atk)

Abra is the premier special attacker of Little Cup. Something worthy of note is that a Modest, Choice Specs, Hidden Power Fighting from Abra is an OHKO on a Max HP, Max SDef, neutral nature Munchlax.

Cranidos @ Choice Scarf
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Pursuit/Crunch
- Zen Headbutt/Hammer Arm

EVs: 196 Atk / 236 Spd / 76 SDef
Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -SAtk)

Cranidos is the premier physical attacker of Little Cup. With max speed and a Choice Scarf, Cranidos outspeeds Elekid, Voltorb and the like, providing they do not have Choice Scarves.

Diglett @ Life Orb/Choice Scarf/Choice Band
Arena Trap
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Rock Slide
- Aerial Ace

EVs: 196 Atk / 236 Spd / 76 Def
Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -SAtk) or Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk)

Diglett was the main revenge killer of Advance Little Cup, and now it's back to deal more damage. Loss of physical Sludge Bomb has hurt it somewhat, but it makes up for it with Sucker Punch, which counters Gastly. Diglett doesn't get Stone Edge for some reason.

Elekid @ Life Orb/Expert Belt/Choice Scarf
- Thunderpunch/Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Cross Chop/Brick Break/Focus Punch
- Psychic/Thunder Wave/Quick Attack

EVs: 196 Atk / 76 SAtk / 236 Spd
Nature: Lonely (+Atk, -Def) or Mild (+SAtk, -Def)

Elekid is a mixed sweeper, unlike it's mostly physical evolution Electivire. Thunderpunch and Thunderbolt is up to you, but it will be your main attack. Thunder Wave can be used to mess up the opposing team, to let some of your slower Pokemon to deal damage.

Porygon @ Choice Specs/Choice Scarf/Life Orb/Expert Belt
Trace/Download
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Tri Attack
- Signal Beam/Shadow Ball

EVs: 76 Def / 196 SAtk / 236 Spd
Nature: Modest (+SAtk, -Atk) or Timid (+Spd, -Atk)

Porygon is an interesting Pokemon. It can revenge kill Diglett. Once it switches in, it can absorb an Earthquake and OHKO with Ice Beam. A Choice Scarf may also be used. If you are using Porygon to attack, the other three items may be used. Porygon has a good movepool. Download can be used to boost SAtk.

Chinchou @ Oran Berry
Volt Absorb
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Confuse Ray
- Thunder Wave

EVs: 156 HP / 56 Def / 148 SAtk / 148 SDef
Nature: Calm (+SDef, -Atk)

Chinchou is one of two Pokemon that resist Boltbeam in Little Cup, the other being Magnemite. Parafusion also messes up the opponents team. Dual STAB is always nice, allowing you to hit harder.

Larvitar @ Life Orb/Choice Band/Flame Orb/Choice Scarf
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Dance/Brick Break/Iron Head
- Pursuit

EVs: 196 Atk / 236 Spd / 76 HP
Nature: Jolly (+Atk, -SAtk)

Larvitar got a boost this generation from Stone Edge and a physical Pursuit (albeit without STAB). Two Dragon Dances allows you to outspeed Diglett, unless said Diglett is Jolly.
Pursuit takes care of things that switch out.

Buizel @ Choice Band
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Brick Break
- Aqua Jet/Pursuit

EVs: 236 Atk / 196 Spd / 76 HP
Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -SAtk) or Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk)

Buizel is a new Choice Bander. Pursuit takes care of fleeing Pokemon, but Aqua Jet can get the first hit in on Diglett (who might Sucker Punch).

Gastly @ Oran Berry
- Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Explosion
- Hypnosis

EVs: 76 Def / 196 SAtk / 236 Spd
Nature: Naive (+Spd, -SDef)

Gastly provides a much-needed Normal, Fighting and Ground immunity, stats fit for a special sweeper, Explosion and a Sleep move. The EV spread allows you to survive a Diglett Rock Slide, but not a Sucker Punch.

Voltorb @ Life Orb
- Thunder Wave/Substitute
- Explosion
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass/Ice]

EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spd / 80 SAtk
Nature: Naive (+Spd, -SDef)

Explosion OHKO's most things in Little Cup. Voltorb may outspeed Diglett and can OHKO with Hidden Power.

Houndour @ Choice Scarf
- Pursuit
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power [Grass]

EVs: 116 Atk / 116 SAtk / 40 SpDef / 236 Spd
Nature: Mild (+SAtk, -Def)

This Houndour can revenge kill Diglett, and sweep if revenge killing is not required.


and since they decided that scyther is the only one still banned...
here are the pokes that were thought to be banned and now deserve some standard sets as well:

Meditite, Tangela, Lickitung, Aipom, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Sneasel, Yanma, Nosepass, Gligar, Munchlax, Cubone, Clamperl, Ponyta

I actually have a Little Cup team for Battle Revolution. Nothing amazing, but my Adaptability Secret Power Eevee is fun in PBR.

Well Little Cup can be Split into Two Different Formats in my Opinion:
Standard Little Cup: Lv. 5
Basic Little Cup: Lv. 1

I say this because I recently hosted a Lv. 1 Little Cup Tournament, albeit with a very limited selection of Pokemon, but almost all had the Same Stats with minor Differences, the average being 12/6/6/6/6/6. Adamant Sneasal with 31 IVs in Attack maxed at 7 Attack and the same for Speed without boosts but the other stats were basically 12/x/6/6/6/x. This makes it so that most things are hit almost the same in Lv. 1 Matches, which makes them slightly faster, shorter, and more dependant on Items for one to be succesful in it. The same can't be said for Lv. 5 as there is more Diversity in Stats allowing for bigger gaps among stats.

tgva8889 said:

I'm definitely interested. I'd be willing to go through and compile a list of Pokemon that would "technically" be legal (meaning I'm assuming that no lowest forms of evolving Pokemon that aren't Scyther are banned).

Return, Frustration, and Zap Cannon don't have 120 power. Thunder has 120 power. You should probably just change that to talk about the best moves in each type.

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Zap cannon is 120 BP in DP

AJC said:

Zap cannon is 120 BP in DP

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Oh, does it? Cool. Now it's...still worse than Thunder?