Little Cup Metagame

Ah ok, I apologize, I didn't know you had thought of it, I thought you simply copied me and didn't credit me. Good job on the analysis, it looks great!

PabloMeza said:

Ah ok, I apologize, I didn't know you had thought of it, I thought you simply copied me and didn't credit me. Good job on the analysis, it looks great!

Click to expand...

You did remind me of that set, but if I had not made it myself I would have noted that you made it.
Thanx, is there anything that you can see to improve?

Worked out the best IV spread for the sub-punch Magby;

14 HP / 30SpA

Rest as 31's. Gives Hidden Power Grass 70. Also fixes most of the other things, except Magby's base speed as I still can't get on the other PC >.<

Evil Hamster said:

Worked out the best IV spread for the sub-punch Magby;

14 HP / 30SpA

Rest as 31's. Gives Hidden Power Grass 70. Also fixes most of the other things, except Magby's base speed as I still can't get on the other PC >.<

Click to expand...

You will have to adjust the ev spread to account for losing one SpA IV, but that is not too hard, just add 4 evs.
HP grass 70 IV spread for non-Sub-Punch sets is 30 HP and 30 Sp. Attack, 31 the rest.


Right played around with EV/IV spreads for Magby.

With a + nature Sp. attack maxes out at 17, with minimum of 196 EVs (200 with a 30 IV).
Without a nature boost Sp. Attack maxes out at 16 with a minimum of 196 EVs (200 with a 30 IV).
With a + nature Speed maxes out at 19, with minimum of 252 EVs.
Without a + nature Speed maxes out at 18, with minimum of 252 EVs.

Dumping the other 58 Evs into Attack, HP, Def or Sp. Def does not give you a single point.

30 in HP and Sp. Attack gives HP Grass 70.

For each IV point you drop you must put 4 EVs in to replace it.

I am working on a "Little Cup Speed Tiers" thingy, the first version should be done soon.

Speed Tiers V1

Little Cup Speed Tiers WIP


Tier 0
Fast Pokemon with +2 Speed, very fast Pokemon with +1 Speed and Pokemon with more than +2 Speed.

50 Unburden Salac +Difloon

48 Unburben Salac Difloon

44 Agility +Scyther

40 2x Speed Boost +Yanma, Agility Scyther

38 Agility +Aipom, 2 Speed Boost Yanma, Swift Swim +Buizel, Unburben Salac No Speed Difloon,

36 Swift Swim +Magikarp, Agility Aipom, Swift Swim +Feebas, Swift Swim Buizel

34 Swift Swim/Agility +Surskit, Agility +Carvanha, Unburben +Difloon, Scarf +Sneasel

33 Scarf +Scyther

32 Chlorophyll +Tangela, Swift Swim +Kabuto, Agility +Ledyba, Swift Swim/Agility Surskit, Agility Carvanha, Rock Polish +Cranidos, Unburben Difloon, Agility +Buneary

31 Scarf Sneasel

Tier 1
Fast Scarfers and Salac users, Slow Pokemon with +2 Speed.

30 +Scarf Diglett, Scarf +Voltorb, Clorophyll Tangela, Swift Swim Kabuto, 2DD Dratini, Agility Ledyba, Scarf +Elekid, Agility +Torchic , Rock Polish Cranidos, Agility Buneary, Swift Swim +Mantyke, Speed Boost +Yanma, Scarf Scyther

28 Scarf Diglett, max+ Scarf Meowth, Scarf +Abra, + Chlorophyll Bellsprout, Scarf Voltorb, Scarf +Ponyta, Clorophyll +Exeggcute, Scarf +Staryu, Swift Swim +Omanyte, 2DD Dratini, Scarf +Murkrow, Scarf +Misdreaveus, Scarf +Gligar, Quick Feet +Teddiusa, Scarf Elekid, Scarf +Magby, 2DD +Larvitar, Agility Torchic, Quick Feet +Poochyena, Scarf +Buizel, Scarf +Glameow, Swift Swim Mantyke, 1 Speed Boost Yanma

27 Scarf Meowth, Scarf Abra, Scarf Ponyta, Scarf +Ghastly, Scarf Staryu, Scarf Murkrow, Scarf Misdreaveus, Scarf Gligar, Scarf Magby, Scarf +Anorith, Scarf Buizel, Scarf Glameow, Scarf +Stunky,

Tier 2
Very slow Pokemon with +2 and medium speed Pokemon with +1.

26 Chlorophyll Bellsprout, Clorophyll Exeggcute, Rock Polish +Ryhorn, Swift Swim Omanyte, Quick Feet Teddiusa, 2DD Larvitar, Quick Feet Poochyena, Simple-Salac +Bidoof, Unburben No Speed Difloon, Rock Polish +Rhyhorn

25 Salac/DD +Charmander, Scarf +Mankey, Scarf Ghastly, Scarf +Cyndaquil, Scarf + Remoraid, Scarf +Houndour, Scarf +Smoochum, Scarf +Carvanha, Scarf Anorith, Scarf Stunky,

24 Scarf +Mankey, Scarf Growlithe, Scarf/Salac +Eevee, Scarf Cynderquil, Scarf Remoraid, Scarf Houndour, Scarf Smoochum, Salac +Zigzagoon, Scarf, Scarf Carvanha, Scarf +Wailmer, Scarf +Chimchar, Scarf +Starly, Simple-Salac Bidoof, Scarf +Cranidos, Rock Polish Rhyhorn, +Meditite

Tier 3
Slow Pokemon with +1 and Very Fast Pokemon with no boosts.

23 +Sneasel

22 Scarf Growlithe, Scarf +Magnemite, Scarf +Krabby, Rock Polish Ryhorn, Scarf/Salac Eevee, 1DD/Scarf +Dratini, Salac Zigzagoon, Scarf +Swablu, Scarf/DD +Bagon, Scarf Chimchar, Scarf Starly, Scarf +Shinx, Scarf Cranidos, +Croagunk, Swift Swim No Speed Mantyke, Scarf Meditite, + Scyther

21 Scarf Magnemite, Scarf Krabby, Scarf +Porygon, 1DD/Scarf Dratini, Scarf/DD +Larvitar, Scarf +Ralts, Scarf +Shroomish, Scarf Wailmer, Scarf +Cacnea, Scarf Swablu, Scarf +Corphish, Scarf/DD Bagon, Scarf Shinx, Scarf +Gible, Croagunk, Scarf +Snover, Sneasel

20 +nature Diglett, +Voltorb, +Elekid, +Yanma, Scyther

Tier 4
Fast Pokemon with no boosts and very slow Pokemon with +1.

19 Scarf +Paras, Diglett, +Meowth, +Abra, +Ponyta, Volorb, Elekid, +Staryu, Scarf Porygon, +Aipom, +Murkrow, +Misdreaveus, +Gligar, +Magby, Scarf/DD Larvitar, +Tallow, Scarf Corphish, Scarf +Bidoof, +Buizel, +Glameow, Yanma

18 Meowth, Abra, Ponyta, +Doduo, +Ghastly, Staryu, Aipom, Murkrow, Misdreaveus, Gligar, Magby, Tallow, +Anorith, Buizel, Glameow, +Stunky, Scarf +Azurill,


Tier 5
Medium speed Pokemon.

17 + Mankey, +Tentacool, Doduo, Ghastly, +Remoraid, +Houndour, +Smoochum, +Surskit, +Carvanha, Anorith, Stunky, +Skorupi,

16 +Charmander, Mankey, +Growlithe, Tentacool, +Eevee, +Kabuto, +Dratini, +Ledyba, Remoraid, Houndour, Smoochum, +Zigzagoon, Surskit, Carvanha, Scarf +Trapinch, +Chimchar, +Starly, +Cranidos, +Buneary, +Mime Jr., +Riolu, Skorupi, +Tangela, Scarf Azurill, +Meditate

15 Growlithe, + Magnemite, +Krabby, Eevee, Kabuto, Dratini, Ledyba, No Speed Gligar, +Swinub, +Torchic, Zigzagoon, Scarf Trapinch, +Swablu, +Snorunt, +Bagon, Chimchar, Starly, +Shinx, Cranidos, Buneary, Riolu, +Croagunk, +Mantyke, Tangela, Meditate

Tier 6
Slow Pokemon, Fast No Speed Pokemon

14 +Bellsprout, Magnemite, Krabby, +Exeggcute, +Cubone, +Porygon, +Omanyte, Swinub, +Larvitar, Torchic, +Cacnea, Swablu, +Corphish, Snorunt, Bagon, Shinx, +Gible, Croagunk, Mantyke, +Snover

13 Bellsprout, no speed Onix, Exeggcute, Cubone, +Ryhorn, Porygon, Omanyte, No Speed Chinchou, Larvitar, Cacnea, Corphish, +Clamperl, Gible, Snover, +Rhyhorn

12 Max + nature Paras, Ryhorn, No Speed Wailmer, No Speed Spoink, No Speed Baltoy, Rhyhorn, No Speed Tangela, +Azurill

11 no speed Krabby, no speed Cubone, No Speed Hoothoot, +Trapinch, No Speed Shuppet, No Speed Mantyke, Azurill

Tier 7
Slow to medium No Speed Pokemon, Trick Room users.

10 no speed Machop, no speed Koffing, No Speed Phanpy, no speed Mudkip, No Speed Shroomish, No Speed Nincadia, No Speed Numel,

9 no speed Paras, no speed Grimer, no speed Lickytung, no speed Ryhorn, no speed Snubull, no speed Makuhita, No Speed Nosepass, No Speed Aron, No Speed Duskull, No Speed Spheal, No Speed Turtwig, No Speed Bidoof, No Speed Sheldon, No Speed Hippopotas, No Speed Rhyhorn

8 No Speed Lileep, Trick Room Shuppet, No Speed Wynaut, No Speed Azurill

7 No Speed Trapinch, Trick Room Clamperl, No Speed Bonsly, No Speed Munchlax
6 Trick Room Bronzor, Trick Room Azurill
5 Trick Room Trapinch,
3 Macho Brace Trick Room Bronzor


+ Means + Speed Nature
No Speed Means it has no speed Evs but a 31 Speed IV and Neutral Speed Nature.
Trick Room Means - Speed Nature, 0 Speed IV and no Speed Evs.

Scarf Means holding Choice Scarf
Salac Means activated Salac berry
DD Means Dragon Dance

Italic Means Banned

For all Pokemon without Trick Room or No Speed assume Max Speed Evs.

If you think of a viable Pokemon that I have missed, or one that is not viable so I should remove it please tell me.

Speed tiers list looks excellent :) I'll have a brush through to see if there's any significant Pokemon you've missed in a sec. Thanks for the Magby EV stuff too :p

Anyway, just written a Murkrow analysis;

[SET]
name: Choice Bander
move 1: Sucker Punch
move 2: Pursuit
move 3: Drill Peck
move 4: Hidden Power Fighting
item: Choice Band
ability: Insomnia
nature: Hasty
evs: 236Atk, 236Spe, 36Hp

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Murkrow makes a decent Choice Bander, with the focus of the set being on the incredibly useful STAB Sucker Punch. Pursuit nails things trying to flee from your Sucker Punch, whilst Drill Peck is Murkrow's next best physical move, gets STAB and surprisingly good coverage with Dark, as few steels are viable for Little Cup play. Hidden Power Fighting in the last slot is for coverage purposes; Murkrow doesn't get any other good physical moves, and it hits two of the resists of Murkrow's STAB attacks (Aron and Shieldon) for 4x, as well as Larvitar and Magnemite for Super Effective.</p>

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Dark Pulse
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Drill Peck
move 4: Hidden Power Fighting
item: Life Orb
nature: Hasty
ability: Insomnia
evs: 236Spe, 144Atk, 72SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set attempts to remedy the most severe issue with the first set; trying to predict when to use Sucker Punch when equipped with a Choice Band. The presence of an alternative STAB attack to use as well as the freedom offered by the Life Orb when compared to the Choice Band makes prediction a much more manageable affair. It also makes getting past very physically defensive Pokemon such as Krabby, Rhyhorn and Onix considerably easier. Hidden Power Fighting gets the best coverage with Dark, hitting all the things that resist Murkrow's STAB attacks hard.</p>

[SET]
name: Taunt
move 1: Taunt
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Pursuit
move 4: Drill Peck
item: Life Orb / Focus Sash
nature: Jolly
evs: 236Atk, 236Spe, 36Hp

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is quite difficult to utilise properly, due to Murkrow's sub-standard defenses, but it's certainly workable. Murkrow's great base 91 speed allows it to get the jump on a lot, Taunting the status attempts from the likes of Misdreavus, Ponyta, Gastly and Drifloon, or anything trying to stat up. Then, they're either forced to switch or attack you, making them easy pickings with Sucker Punch or Pursuit. Drill Peck provides another decent STAB attack, which is useful at times for when you're faster anyway and don't want to predict, and it also stops Fighting types such as Mankey and Riolu walling you.</p>

<p>On this set, I'd go so far as to say that either ability is viable. Insomnia makes coming into Gastly and Drifloon a lot easier, and can greatly help your team out if you struggle to deal with sleep inducers. However, Super Luck, whilst inconsistent, could net you some lucky kills. Insomnia is the more reliable option, but both are perfectly useable. Jolly is a necessity; allowing you to outspeed Gastly, Misdreavus and Meowth, all of whom commonly carry status attacks.</p>

<p>Taunt Murkrow has great value as a lead; the combined threat of a potent priority move, a powerful STAB Pursuit and the ability to shut down any form of set-up such as Stealth Rock or status makes it a solid choice to lead your team. If using Murkrow for this role, then Focus Sash would probably be the better item choice. Otherwise, I would recommend Life Orb.

[Other Options]

<p>Murkrow's most intriguing other option is Psycho Shift. Being immune to sleep, Murkrow can get some good use as a status taker with Psycho Shift, throwing burns and paralysis back at your opponent. You could use a bulky set built around it, or use it over Hidden Power Ground on the Choice Band set if you can't breed for Hidden Power. Murkrow does have a very good SpA stat, so a Specs set would be a possibility if his special movepool wasn't so bad; his viable choices are limited to Dark Pulse, Psychic and Hidden Power. Screech is a good choice; with Pursuit, you can hit potential counters hard as they switch. Unfortunately, Murkrow doesn't really have the bulk to pull it off. </p>

<p>Thunder Wave can cripple a switch-in, if you're into that. However, it's synergy with Sucker Punch leaves a lot to be desired. Perish Song, Roost and Haze are good moves, but unfortunately not really suitable for Murkrow due to his frailty. He can Calm Mind if you want, but you'll run into problems with his movepool and his defensive capabilities. Swagger could be used in conjunction with Psych Up and Substitute to boost Murkrow's already decent Attack stat. Hidden Power Grass gets pretty decent coverage, hitting potential counters such as Kabuto, Omanyte and Larvitar harder. You lose coverage against Magnemite, Aron and Shieldon though. You could try running Super Luck on the first two sets if it's more to your liking, but losing the ability to come in on sleep moves is pretty significant. If you do this on the Choice Bander, Sleep Talk can go over Hidden Power Fighting so that you can still absorb sleep to a degree. </p>

[EVs]

<p>Murkrow will pretty much always benefit most from Attack and Speed; despite doing most damage with a priority move, defensive EVs aren't going to make much of a difference at all, and a quick Drill Peck would be useful for the likes of Gastly, Ponyta and Misdreavus, who might not go for the quick kill.</p>

[Opinion]

<p>Murkrow's movepool is what really limits it. Whilst it does get some interesting options in STAB Sucker Punch, Taunt, Pursuit and Psycho Shift, it's generally going to be relatively predictable. However, despite this, Murkrow still makes a fantastic sleep taker, and a potent powerhouse. Murkrow's general reliance on Sucker Punch to do lots of damage means that using Murkrow can involve quite a lot of prediction. If you don't mind that, Murkrow is a decent choice.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Aron and Larvitar are the best counters where Hidden Power Fighting is not present; resisting both STAB moves with Super Effective STAB attacks to hit Murkrow back with. Larvitar in particular is good, as if Murkrow Psycho Shifts status onto him, he gets an invaluable Guts boost. Omanyte can come in for free on anything not named Hidden Power Ground or a Specs set with his fantastic defense, and hit Murkrow with powerful Surfs or Hydro Pumps, or just get some form of Spikes down. The latter is particularly effective as it breaks any Focus Sashes the opponent's team has, and it prevents Murkrow from hitting you with neutral Sucker Punches. </p>

<p>Kabuto works in a similar way to Omanyte, but sacrifices the ability to lay spikes for a powerful STAB Rock Slide to take Murkrow down with. Bonsly can switch in for free as well, and makes short work of Murkrow. Magnemite resists both STAB moves, has good defense to take hits well, and can bombard Murkrow with Thunderbolt. Whilst not technically a counter, Stealth Rock really helps to wear Murkrow down. Constant switching will quickly wear out Sucker Punch's 8 PP as well, if you lack a suitable Dark resist to take it on.</p>

------------------

Quick question; are we just doing analyses for the standards?

Speed tiers list looks excellent :) I'll have a brush through to see if there's any significant Pokemon you've missed in a sec. Thanks for the Magby EV stuff too :p

Click to expand...

Thanx, it has taken me more than 4 hours so far... I had no idea it would take this long... It should be done in a few days.
I will have a play with Murkrow's Evs later, and have a look at its movepool, but for now:

I think + Speed is better for CB, 19 helps draw with or outspeed a LOT of Pokemon.
I don't think many Pokemon use status in LC other than sleep, which you are immune to so maybe put Psycho Shift in other options? Also Choiced Psycho Shift is a bit bad.
What is HP Ground for other than Rock/Steels? Maybe Grass or Fighting or something could fit better. Fighting sounds good to me.
I don't have time to look through its movepool for other options right now, but I will.

For Taunt could you emphasise its usefulness as a lead in stoping the ever common SR and sleep (With Insomnia) leads.
Focus sash should be an option over LO as well.
Is there something that could replace one of the Dark STABs? And have them as Sucker Punch/Pursuit.

I think that Swagger is too gimmicky to work well in LC, the game is too fast paced to use 2+ turns setting up, and sweeping with one attack + not brilliant speed is very unreliable.
Does it have the movepool to support Specs or Mixed?

If you still can't get Shoddy I will fix up the EVs section later.

Quick question; are we just doing analyses for the standards?

Click to expand...

For now, I think we should. But maybe once we have done then all we could move onto the less common Pokemon.

Another very nice analysis EH

Edit: I think I may try Bronzor once the speed tiers are done, TR in LC could be a powerful strategy.

Edit 2: After looking at the Speed Tiers I think that a + Speed nature is best for every set in the Magby analysis. On non Scarf It is needed to draw with

Scarf +Paras, Max Diglett, max+ Meowth, +Abra, +Ponyta, Volorb, Elekid, +Staryu, Scarf Porygon, +Aipom, +Murkrow, +Misdreaveus, +Gligar, +Magby, Scarf/DD Larvitar, +Tallow

Click to expand...

and beat

Meowth, Abra, Ponyta, +Doduo, +Ghastly, Staryu, Aipom, Murkrow, Misdreaveus, Gligar, Magby, Tallow

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for Scarf its needed to draw with:

Scarf Diglett, max+ Scarf Meowth, Scarf +Abra, + Chlorophyll Bellsprout, Scarf Voltorb, Scarf +Ponyta, Clorophyll +Exeggcute, Scarf +Staryu, Swift Swim +Omanyte, 2DD Dratini, Scarf +Murkrow, Scarf +Misdreaveus, Scarf +Gligar, Quick Feet +Teddiusa, Scarf Elekid, Scarf +Magby, 2DD +Larvitar, Agility Torchic, Quick Feet +Poochyena,

Click to expand...

and beat:

Scarf Meowth, Scarf Abra, Scarf Ponyta, Scarf +Ghastly, Scarf Staryu, Scarf Murkrow, Scarf Misdreaveus, Scarf Gligar, Scarf Magby

Click to expand...

Is that worth 1 Sp./Attack Point?

Hidden Power Ground hits the few resists of Murkrow's STAB attacks in Shieldon, Magnemite, Larvitar and Aron. I originally had Fighting there, but Ground hits more of them harder. Grass doesn't hit much that isn't hit harder with a CB Sucker Punch or Drill Peck most of the time though, apart from the harder hit on Larvitar, Kabuto and Omanyte. (More than I thought actually, I'll stick it in other options) I'll stick Psycho Shift in other options as well.

Seeing as the focus of the CB set is on Sucker Punch, I guessed that probably +Spe isn't needed. Admittedly, there's a lot between 18 and 19, but most of them with the exception of status Misdreavus, Voltorb and maybe a Roosting Gligar or a DD Larvitar. The latter it would be particularly useful for if you're running an effective Hidden Power, but I'm not sure if it's really worth the investment. I'll add it as an option though.

Sucker Punch/Pursuit have fantastic synergy with Taunt, so I'm not sure about losing one :( And he really doesn't have anything else physically bar Steel Wing :p Good point about the lead/Sash, I'll fix that.

As for the movepool issues, mixed is unlikely :p It's useable physical movepool is limited to Sucker Punch, Drill Peck and Pursuit, whilst his special movepool is Dark Pulse, Psychic and Hidden Power >.< I guess Swagger probably is a little gimmicky, I'll remove that. Thanks for the help :)

More stuff is immune to Ground, and I think Fight should 1KO all the Pokemon you listed. Grass was a bad idea.

I did say + Spe on Magby actually, but it kinda makes fits on Murkrow too Sucker Punch does help, but what is you use Drill Peck? 1 Attack is not worth letting all those revenge kill you IMO.

Right keep the Dark STABs, they do work well.

Well I think something a bit like this
Murkrow@LO/Scarf

Sucker Punch
Drill Peck
Psychic/Dark Pulse
HP Something

Could be viable
or maybe even
Murkrow@Specs

Sucker Punch
Psychic
Dark Pulse
HP Flying/something

but I don't know I would have to test them.

Thanks for the help :)

Click to expand...

you wrote them, that's the hard part. Thanx for writing them.

Didn't realise you only got one attack point for Lonely :p I'll change it to Hasty now.

Sorry, didn't see your Magby edit, didn't realise it was that much :p

Not too sure about mixed sets though; they don't cover much that his other options don't cover already. Psychic really doesn't cover much at all. I agree that Hidden Power Fighting deserves a mention though.

Evil Hamster said:

Didn't realise you only got one attack point for Lonely :p I'll change it to Hasty now.
it may be 2, but iirc it is 1.

Sorry, didn't see your Magby edit, didn't realise it was that much :p
its fine.

Not too sure about mixed sets though; they don't cover much that his other options don't cover already. Psychic really doesn't cover much at all. I agree that Hidden Power Fighting deserves a mention though.

Click to expand...

mmm.. the main reason for mixed is that Sucker Punch (Murkrows best attack) does not work well with CB, if you are trapped in Sucker Punch you are just asking for an opponent to set up on you.
Taunt does this well, but not everyone wants to use a taunt set.
Pure Phy. with LO or Sash would fail due to its very poor movepool, so mixed is the logical way to go.
So you end up with:

Murkrow@Life Orb/Focus Sash
Attack/Speed
+speed -Sp. def nature
Sucker Punch
Drill Peck
Dark Pulse
HP something, probably Fight.

actually that looks too like Taunt for my liking....
How about mentioning that HP Fight can work over Taunt in set comments or Other Options, and that Dark Pulse is an option over Pursuit if you use HP Fight.

Specs is not a brilliant option now that I think, but maybe a mention in Other Options about why not to use it?

I actually quite like that set :p I don't see why it can't have it's own set; it is slightly similar to the Taunt set, but it's different enough to warrant a seperate mention.

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Dark Pulse
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Drill Peck
move 4: Hidden Power Fighting
item: Life Orb
nature: Hasty
ability: Insomnia
evs: 236Spe, 144Atk, 72SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set attempts to remedy the most severe issue with the first set; trying to predict when to use Sucker Punch when equipped with a Choice Band. The presence of an alternative STAB attack to use as well as the freedom offered by the Life Orb when compared to the Choice Band makes prediction a much more manageable affair. It also makes getting past very physically defensive Pokemon such as Krabby, Rhyhorn and Onix considerably easier. Hidden Power Fighting gets the best coverage with Dark, hitting all the things that resist Murkrow's STAB attacks hard.</p>

<p>Insomnia is recommended here, as, just like with the Choice Bander, it gives you more opportunities to switch in, as well as supplying your team with a way to take sleep. Super Luck is much more unreliable, and for the most part is less useful. Feel free to try it though.</p>

If shoddy is right, then Buizel doesn't learn Ice Fang D:

Thanx EH, I like that set too.

yoshi! I checked Serebii's Smogon's and Shoddy's database and none of them claim that it learns Ice Fang, after reading the LC article I see why you said that, This is inaccurate and needs changing.

Buizel @ Choice Band
EVs: 236 Atk / 196 Spe / 76 HP
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA) or Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Brick Break
- Aqua Jet/Pursuit
Buizel is a new Choice Bander. Pursuit takes care of fleeing Pokemon, but Aqua Jet can get the first hit on Diglett, who might Sucker Punch.

Click to expand...

Ideas for the new set?

also

<p>Swagger and Psych Up get Thunder Wave can cripple

Click to expand...

looks wrong

And I would move all the advice about Super Luck to Other Options rather than have it on each set.

Do you have Shoddy? if so later we could have a LC battle, I am normally on DJD's server.

Edit: Speed Tiers are complete. YAHOOOO!!! Please look over them everyone.

Edit: Note to self, investigate LC Batton Passers,
Ledyba, Aipom, Surskit, Buezel, Buneary, Difloon

Yeah, I can use Shoddy now :) I'll wait on Doug's server. Fixed up the other options bit, and moved most of the ability stuff there too.

As for Buizel, I'd personally just stick Pursuit over Ice Fang. Looking over speed tiers now.

Evil Hamster said:

Fixed up the other options bit, and moved most of the ability stuff there too.
great
As for Buizel, I'd personally just stick Pursuit over Ice Fang.
mm.. that works, but I wonder if there is a better replacement.
Looking over speed tiers now.
right.

Click to expand...

Edit: EH I can have another few games if you go back to shoddy.
Edit 2: maybe later.

I can see Scarf Cyndaquil as a very powerful threat...+Speed @ Scarf hits 25, which is pretty fast and only beaten by a handful of Scarfers and +2 Speed boosted Pokémon.

I'm currently theory-testing this set:

Cyndaquil @ Choice Scarf
Naive
72 Atk 236 Spe 200 SpA
IVs: 30 Atk 30 SpAtk

-Eruption
-Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Overheat
-HP Grass
-Double Kick

Obviously, Scarf Eruption is the selling trick of this set. Cyndaquil has the potential to OHKO most things not resistant to fire and 2HKO things that resist Eruption. HP Grass for a quick kill on Waters and Rocks (especially Kabuto/Omanyte). The second Fire move is for when Cyndaquil is at low health with Blaze activated (if it survives a hit...). Double Kick may seem odd here; however, Houndour walls this set, and it is specifically for him. Double Kick OHKOs Houndour if you can nail it on the switch and it uses a -Def nature (any residual damage means Houndour loses, -Def nature or not). Other problem Pokémon are Vulpix and Ponyta, both with Flash Fire,and to whom Double Kick does a measly 40-50%.

Fleeing Cyndaquil survives a 116 Atk EVs Houndour Pursuit at full HP, which activates Blaze and lets Cyndaquil come back for more if there is no weather or entry hazards. Pairing Cyndaquil with Diglett and a Pursuiter (for Scarf Abra/Gastly) lets it wreck havoc on the opposing team. Of course, Sandstorm/Hail make Eruption almost useless after a while.

Cyndaquil is hampered by his almost nonexistant Special movepool, which consists of Fire moves, some more Fire moves, Hidden Power and Mud-Slap.

The EVs are to compensate the point lost by having a 30 IV on both attacking stats and still have the maximum possible.

Some damage calcs below. All are done using the above set against 252HP 252 SpD, neutral SpD nature Pokémon, a very unlikely case.

Cyndaquil Eruption against:
I was doing them alphabetically, so I have missed some Pokémon.

Other important guys:
Well...you get the idea...The majority of the Pokémon eligible for LC need max HP and Special Defense to survive a Cyndaquil Eruption; and without that heavy investment, even Pokémon resistant to Fire get 2HKO'd and the majority of non-resistant ones suffer an OHKO.It has to be revenge killed by a faster Scarfer or Pursuited by Houndour.

I'll probably do more calcs later. What do you think of Cyndaquil?

Oh, and are you testing LC on the CAP server? I'd really like to give it a shot...

Cyndaquil looks like a pretty dangerous threat, I must admit. It's a shame that he loses out on both Earthquake and Focus Punch (Both of which Typhlosion gets) which would hit Flash Fire Pokemon harder, but it will certainly still do damage.

I ran a similar set with Wailmer a while back; it worked surprisingly well. Main problem I had with that was that it was essentially deadweight once it had dropped below about 80%, something that Cyndaquil shouldn't have any problems with thanks to Blaze :) He does miss out on Wailmer's Selfdestruct though.

I suppose Double-Edge could be usable if you want to hit Ponyta and Vulpix as hard as Houndour, as Double Kick on Houndour is 30*2*2=120, the same as Double-Edge. Eruption loses its purpose, however. Maybe Return could be an option as a more balanced attack; but since Houndour is the really threatening one with its STAB Pursuit, I'll stick with Double Kick for now.

And I just noticed, thank goodness that Belly Drum + Extremespeed Zigzagoon is illegal on L5 play...

You don't need to do calks on all Pokemon, just a few key ones (5 or 6 at the most) so people get the idea of how strong its attacks are, also where did you do those calcs?

Double-Edge is not good with Eruption, but Return could work.


I could see it running into speed problems, 25 is decent but not amazing. Sashers could revenge kill it, or ruin its most powerful attack by hurting it.
Flash Fire's would be the bane of this set, forcing you out and giving them a much needed boost.
However it has a lot of power behind it, and would be able to sweep through some teams.
Overall it looks like a pretty nice set to me, but what would be really helpful would be writing a full Cyndaquil analysis in SCMS Format.

Oh, and are you testing LC on the CAP server? I'd really like to give it a shot...

Click to expand...

Yes, we normally play on the CaP server.


On another matter I now think Sneasel may well be broken, SD Ice Shard 1KOs a majority of LC Pokemon (it also ignores speed boosts) and most of the ones that survive can't take a Faint Attack afterwards.
115 Speed and 95 attack coupled with SD and a STAB Priority move is just too much for LC.
I am not moving for an ban right now, but unless someone can come up with a good and reliable way of stopping it, I think it will soon be banned.

Cranidos has Recoil from Head Smash and needs a Rock Polish to outspeed much so I think it is not a problem.

I did the calcs in Metalkid's; that's why I gave worst-case scenario as I heard it tends to overshoot damage. Anyone recommend me another calc?

Yes, for Cyndaquil to sweep it needs team support. As I said, Diglett and a Pursuiter are extremely useful to Cyndaquil, as is Stealth Rock (If you can somehow manage to set it up).

I'll try and do the analysis for Cyndaquil.

On the Sneasel matter, I suppose it depends on what the standard moveset is...from what you say, I infer it is Swords Dance/Ice Shard/Faint Attack/Something. That something I imagine can be Brick Break or Aerial Ace. An Aron could wall Sneasel without Brick Break and threaten it with Iron Head. A defensive Thick Fat Makuhita fares somewhat well against Sneasel if it doesn't carry Aerial Ace(which OKHOs after a boost). Brick Break is a 2HKO on Makuhita and it can hit back with a Brick Break of his own or surprise with Bullet Punch. Still, I'm seeing Sneasel as a little bit too powerful...

Ah, Baby Metagaming. Interesting thing it is. Lately I've been doing a MS Guide for the Baby Battles on PBR.

I have a question. Are these set on Lv5- or the usual Lv100? Sorry if it's been answered, but I'm lazy >_<

The most common one, and the one we play is Lv 5, but Lv 1 or Lv 100 are also played.

Ah, right. This leads into a new question (sorry).

How do you max out a stat with EVs before you go pass level five? Someone said it's possible.

Mostly vitamins, and intensive EV training with Power Items. To keep below level 5, you generally need to have a few other Pokemon in your party to split the Exp, so that you level up much slower.