Little Cup Metagame Development

Read the EV spread guide for better spreads, and you will want to max out speed.

needs a mention of Scarf on the choice set.

Flamethrower is odd on the rain set, and rain is not very viable.

Mix set with LO/ Sash is a decent option

Expand the first Opinion

your Counters and Opinion is a bit odd

[OPINION]
<p>One of the better Pokémon that went off and evolved, Misdreavus appears to be settling in as a nice boosting alternate to Gastly in Little Cup.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I didn't finish it. I was just using Chris is Me's Mismagius template xD

For the Specs set, the Evs are funny

xD. Checked it.

Practically finished, though I'm adding physical sets tomorrow. Help with the Counters section please!:

Here it is then; the Elekid analysis. If I don't finish today, give comments, and I'll finish it tomorrow:

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Hidden Power [Grass]
move 4: Discharge
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA/156 Spd/100 HP

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is built to win. It can nearly always OHKO a 252 HP/252 SpD Bronzor, getting 88%-104%, with Flamethrower. Thunderbolt is in there for the STAB and power. Hidden Power Ice is also a choice over Hidden Power Grass. Hidden Power Ice can outdo Hippopotas, but so can Hidden Power Grass. Discharge is in there for the boosts it can give, and the STAB. There are some damage calculations below.</p>

[SET]
name: Focus Rain
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Thunder
move 3: Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Water]
move 4: Flamethrower
item: Focus Sash
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 252 SpA/100 HP/156 Spd

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Elekid does well in learning Thunder and Rain Dance. The Focus Sash remains there in case of things attacking and possibly OHKOing. On nearly every Pokémon in the Little Cup, it'll outspeed. This gives it the chance to get the Rain Dance on the first turn, and OHKO with tits wide movepool on the next turn. Hidden Power Water is in there because of the boost it'll get from Rain Dance. Flamethrower is, once, again, in there to kill Bronzor.</p>

[OPTIONS]
<p>Elekid has a fantastic movepool physical-wise, but a limited movepool when it comes to special-type moves. Hidden Power Water, Grass and Ice are its best choices for taking out Hippopotas, while Flamethrower is its only choice for OHKOing Bronzor. Like his elder brother, he has the Elemental Punches at his disposal. On top of this, it has Earthquake and Cross Chop to use. </p>

[OPINION]
<p>Elekid has one of the best speeds in the Little Cup, and puts it to good use. His better-than-average movepool is great for taking out the metagame's walls, such as Bronzor and Hippopotas. Coupled with the fantastic speed, it is an amazingly viable Pokémon in the Little Cup, though it is overshadowed by some of the better attacking ones. All in all, Elekid is a fantastic opponent/Pokémon to be used, and deserves much, much, much more attention.</p>

[COUNTERS]
<p>Need big time help with this section. I don't know heck.</p>

Elekid doesn't get Flamethrower. I'll help with Counters later, but in the meantime, Diglett can switch in on the STAB attacks and kill. Also add a mixed sweeper set (Tbolt/Cross Chop/Ice Punch/Quick Attack).

Oh and anyone who wants to post a set, try to do a full analysis instead. Look for the SCMS format in the C&C forum.

Can't it get it from the male and female parents 'reacting'?

No, because only Electivire gets it as a TM.

Just a suggestion: I think you may want to move the analyses from the other thread into this one in the event that the older thread is somehow deleted or removed. Otherwise, good job everyone. I'm looking forward to a Little Cup metagame.

SkarmBlissCounter said:

For the Specs set, the Evs are funny

Click to expand...

EVs work differently on level 5

Mr. Happy said:

No, because only Electivire gets it as a TM.

Click to expand...

you mean EQ.

Both Earthquake and Flamethrower are "Electivire-Only" TMs for that Evolutionary line.

Restating, Porygon can not have Psybeam, Agility, Recover, Magnet Rise, Signal Beam, Discharge, Lock-On, Tri Attack, Magic Coat or Zap Cannon at level 5. You can't breed a Genderless Pokémon to have higher level moves at level 1, it's impossible.

Yeah, Porygon only has access to TM and Tutor moves.

Mankey analysis here shortly


Mankey

[SET]
name:Choice Monkey
move1:Close Combat / Brick Break
move2:Payback
move3:U-Turn
move4:Rock Slide / Ice Punch
ability:Vital Spirit
nature: Jolly
item:Choice Band / Choice Scarf
evs: 116HP / 196Atk / 196Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p> Boost either one of Mankey's higher stats: Choice Band will hurt and kill something, provided you predict correctly; at the cost of having mediocre Speed. This can be fixed by using Choice Scarf, as Mankey does have a good 80 base Attack which can still hurt many things.</p>
<p>Close Combat gets STAB and has the power fit for a hit-and-run Pokémon. Payback gives neutrality to the set and lets you OHKO any ghost that switches is expecting to sponge a Close Combat. U-Turn is great to scout who did your opponent bring in to counter Mankey and to gain the upper hand. Rock Slide covers Flying enemies that resist your STAB move. Ice Punch has a slim chance of OHKOing max HP/Def Gligar with Choice Scarf; having Stealth Rock on the field almost guarantees the kill and a Choice Band always OHKOs. However, being a 3rd generation Tutor move, it is incompatible with the 4th generation level-up move Close Combat. If you want to have an elemental punch, Brick Break will have to suffice as your STAB move.</p>

[SET]
name: Reversal
move1: Endure
move2: Bulk Up
move3: Reversal
move4: Payback / Rock Slide / Ice Punch
ability: Vital Spirit
item: Salac Berry
nature: Jolly
evs: 116HP / 196Atk / 196Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Bulk Up until you see the opponent's next move will KO Mankey. Endure to 1 HP to get a full power STAB Reversal and activate your Salac Berry.Now sweep with Reversal and your last move: Payback covers Ghosts and only Croagunk resists Fighting/Dark; while Rock Slide and Ice Punch cover Flying-types. Ice Punch is more useful if Gligar is showing up too often. Beware of priority users with this set.</p>
<p>Also note that due to the power formula for Reversal, Mankey can only have a maximum 150 power Reversal [floor(64*1/22) = 2; 150 power].

[SET]
name: Anger Point
move1: Substitute
move2: Bulk Up
move3: Close Combat / Reversal
move4: Payback / Rock Slide
ability: Anger Point
item: Salac Berry
nature: Jolly
evs: 196Atk / 196Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Put up your Substitute and Bulk up whenever you get the chance, hoping the opponent will critical against your Substitute. Bulk Up will give slightly more endurance to your Substitutes against physical attackers,and gives you a back-up plan in case Anger Point never activates.</p>

<p>Not investing in HP EVs leaves Mankey at 20 HP, which means Salac Berry will activate after the third Substitute. If you choose to use Reversal, put 116 EVs in HP so Salac will activate after the fourth Substitute, giving you one more chance to activate Anger Point and leaving you with a more powerful attack than Close Combat (150 vs. 120).</p>

<p>Ice Punch is illegal with Anger Point, so it is not included</p>

[SET]
name: Special Surprise
move1: Focus Blast
move2: Overheat
move3: Hidden Power Ice
move4:Thunder / Thunderbolt
item: Choice Specs
ability: Vital Spirit
nature: Modest
evs: 236SpA / 196Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Mankey has a shallow but usable special movepool, although his base 35 Special Attack makes it an inferior option compared to the physical sets. With Choice Specs and a Modest nature you reach 21 Special Attack, an usable number, especially considering the high base power of Mankey's special arsenal.</p>

<p>Mankey gets a powerful STAB Focus Blast, but its accuracy may give you a hard time. Overheat has a fantastic 140 power but leaves you with a measly 10 Special Attack after one use. The Hidden Power of choice gives you added type coverage, and can help in KOing certain Pokémon. Grass takes care of Rhyhorn, Onix, Cranidos, Kabuto and Omanyte, while Ice hits Gligar, Tangela and Drifloon, possible switch-ins into Mankey; although what HP Grass hits is less likely to switch in, fearing a super effective Close Combat. If you are crazy enough to use a Special-oriented Mankey, you might as well gamble with Thunder's higher power, or go for Thunderbolt to trade 25% accuracy for 25% less power.</p>

<p>While it's certainly amusing seeing Mankey exploding in a blast of fire or launching electrical shocks at its opponents, one must remember that Mankey uses its full potential using a physical set.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Mankey's physical movepool is quite large, including access to the elemental punches, Cross Chop, Focus Punch, Double-Edge, Iron Tail, and Aerial Ace as options not mentioned in the sets. These generally give you little coverage, but can be used if you want to take on something specific.</p>

<p>In the support department, Makey gets Taunt, which can prevent a counter from setting up; and Screech, which can allow Mankey to turn 2HKOs into OHKOs if you nail opponents on the switch.</p>

[EVs]
<p>116HP / 196Atk / 196Spe maximizes Attack and Speed and leaves room for two HP points.</p>
<p>For the Special attacking set, 236SpA / 190Spe maximizes those stats, and leaves EVs to compensate to the stats lowered by using different IVs for Hidden Power.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Mankey may look at first sight as yet another generic Fighting-type inferior to Meditite, but where the monkey excels is in the movepool department. Mankey has lots of options to use as a STAB move, from Brick Break to Reversal, apart from moves that give it a good type coverage.</p>
<p>Mankey may be weaker than Meditite, but its decent Speed, coupled with a Sleep immunity and access to a wide movepool sould make it a solid choice for your team</p>

[Counters]
<p>Mankey will be choiced more often that not, so prediction is the key to giving you an advantage. Gligar takes little fom anything Mankey can offer, barring Ice Punch. Ghosts can come into its STAB attacks and threaten with Shadow Ball. Mankey is quite frail, so revenge killing will be easy. </p>

Kabuto Analysis

[SET]
name: Rain Dance
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Waterfall/Aqua Jet
move 3: Rock Slide
move 4: Flail/Return
item: Liechi Berry
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Adamant
evs: 36HP/196Atk/36Def/236Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Kabuto is a stunning Pokémon in the Rain. Its decent Defense should allow it to survive an attack so that it can set up Rain Dance, even better if it brings its HP down to 5 or below so that the Liechi Berry activates, boosting its Attack to a massive 27 with a Speed stat of 30. Waterfall or Aqua Jet will be your main attack here. Kabuto will outspeed most foes while Rain Dance is in effect and Waterfall will KO the majority of Pokémon. Aqua Jet, on the other hand, has far less power than Waterfall, but it allows Kabuto to hit the very prominent revenge-killers in the Little Cup Metagame.</p>
<p>Rock Slide is a good back-up move for Waterfall/Aqua Jet, as it gets STAB and, as a general rule, hits Pokémon that resist Water decently. And because of Kabuto's Speed, there's a good chance that it will cause the foe to Flinch, as well. The last moveslot is filled with a move that hits the two Pokémon in Little Cup that resist the Water/Rock Attack-Type combo: Wooper and Croagunk. Flail can be helpful if Kabuto's health gets dangerously low, but Return deals more consistent, if slightly less, damage.</p>

I'll finish this later. Also, the moves Reversal and Flail are less helpful in Little Cup, as they only get up to 150 power (you'd need a Pokémon with 64 Base HP at level 5 which is impossible, even Blissey can't do it).

Also, the moves Reversal and Flail are less helpful in Little Cup, as they only get up to 150 power (you'd need a Pokémon with 64 Base HP at level 5 which is impossible, even Blissey can't do it).

Click to expand...

I noted that on the Mankey analysis, on the Reversal set. Still, it's more powerful than Close Combat at 1/2 HP for Mankey.

And you don't need 64 HP, 33 is the minimum for 200 power Flail/Reversal (64*1/33) = 1.9, rounds down to 1, meaning 200 power. Still, only Wailmer and Munchlax achieve this number, and neither one learns Flail/Reversal; meaning it's impossible to get 200 power.

CPU V2.0 said:

Restating, Porygon can not have Psybeam, Agility, Recover, Magnet Rise, Signal Beam, Discharge, Lock-On, Tri Attack, Magic Coat or Zap Cannon at level 5. You can't breed a Genderless Pokémon to have higher level moves at level 1, it's impossible.

Click to expand...

I think we need to discuss how we should tackle issues like this, Pokemon that can get the specific moves/Combinations of moves but not at Lv. 5.

Personally I think we can clause it, like have a Lv. 5 moves only clause.

The LV5 moves clause is implicitly in effect...just we haven't EVER mentioned it, until now.

For Mankey: On the special set, Hidden Power Grass is completely needless. You admitted that most of the Pokemon that it hits would be afraid to switch in to a Close Combat: Why would they be less afraid of a Focus Blast? Don't most of those Pokemon have less special defense than defense?

Also, how hurt is Bronzor by what Mankey seems to bring to the table? It seems like none of the moves are Super Effective (except Overheat on the Special set), if that's any consolation.

On a completely unrelated note, can I make a Cubone analysis? He's one of those guys that I really like for absolutely no reason.

Edit: If I were to make said analysis, would I even bother including random gimmicky sets, or should I just avoid things like that?

Editted out HP Grass.

Bronzor is 2HKOd by Close Combat (That is stronger than a SE Fire Punch) without a boosting item, and Mankey is immune to Hypnosis; and Gyro Ball 3HKOd my Scarf Mankey the last time it faced a Bronzor.

Go ahead with Cubone, add as many sets as you wish...just be sure they seem usable, nothing like "CB Tackle" :P

Cubone

[SET]
name: "Choice"
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Rock Slide
move 3: Blizzard/Fire Punch
move 4: Substitute
item: Thick Club
nature: Adamant
evs: 36HP/196Atk/236Spe or 100HP/100Atk/100Def/100SpA/100Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> This set functions fairly similar to a choice set in that you're operating a Pokemon with high offensive stats and really powerful moves. The main difference, however is that you can switch moves with Cubone. Considering Cubone's rather low speed, maximizing its attack with Adamant is typically more appealing than increasing its speed.</p>

<p>Earthquake is a relatively obvious move here. Rock Slide fills in the second slot by providing coverage as well as being Super Effective against almost every Flying-type that exists in Little Cup. Blizzard is effective against Grass-types that resist Earthquake, as well as OHKOing Gligars, even off of a negative nature. Fire Punch is also effective at taking down Grass-types, but it is also suited for removing Bronzor. Substitute is useful mostly because, if used on the switch, it lets you basically ignore the need for prediction.</p>

<p>Note that if you choose to use Fire Punch, you will not be allowed to have any EV totals for a particular stat over 100. In this case, use the second listed stat total.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Cubone has quite a few options in terms of attacks: Iron Head/Iron Tail, Bonemerang, Double Edge, and Focus Punch. Bonemerang could be useful for breaking Subs, but beyond that these moves are just filler. Double Edge, while powerful, doesn't hit anything significant that other moves don't already cover well enough, unlike Marowak. Emerald Tutors give Cubone Thunderpunch as well, but it doesn't hit anything important that Rock Slide can't hit just as well, if not better. While Cubone technically has enough special attacks to run a special set, its special attack is actually a joke, and it lacks the defensive typing and speed to successfully consider running such a set.</p>

<p>Cubone also learns Swords Dance and Belly Drum, but it's too slow to stat up and sweep and its attack stat doesn't need to be that high to do damage anyways. Cubone has a couple support options in Perish Song and Screech, but its low speed and somewhat fragile defensive stats don't make it a great choice for packing support.</p>

<p>You can technically run the Thick Club set with a Choice Scarf, but seeing as Cubone without Thick Club reaches an attack stat of 15 max while his speed reaches a measly 20, it's probably not a good plan.</p>

[EVs]

<p>Use either 36HP/196Atk/236Spd for a faster version, or 196HP/196Atk/76Def/36SpD for a bulkier version.</p>

[Opinion]

<p> If you like slow but powerful Pokemon, then Cubone is the Pokemon for you. Its move pool is pretty large and its attacks deal a ton of damage, even against neutral enemies. It plays just like a Choice Pokemon, except with more options. Unfortunately, Cubone's low speed prevents him from being able to sweep outside of a Trick Room. However, Cubone can be very useful at clearing out a key Pokemon for your main offensive weapon to win the match. Additionally, he's a prime candidate for Trick Room abuse.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Any dedicated special attacker with high enough speed should be able to KO with a super-effective move like Energy Ball, Ice Beam, or Surf. However, switching in requires some prediction, as a wrong move could spell doom for your Pokemon. Gligar can switch in on any Cubone without Blizzard, as none of Cubone's other moves will deal any notable amount of damage. In a similar way, Bronzor can switch in on any Cubone without Fire Punch, though his chances of harming Cubone in a significant way aren't as high as Gligar's. Almost any Grass-type that isn't part Poison or Rock-type can switch in on Earthquake, but be wary of Blizzard and Fire Punch.
In similar form, Water-types can switch in on Blizzard or Fire Punch, but Earthquake will kill all of them except Mantyke or Wingull. Those two can additionally come in on Earthquake, but watch for Rock Slide in their case. Once Cubone's KOed something, it's most likely already done its job.</p>

Isn't there a tutor for Tri Attack in Emerald? I think that's how Porygon can run it. Not like it's his most common move, but it's worth noting.


Choice Specs Cubone sounds like a joke because it probably is. I don't see why it should be there; you don't exactly pitch it well.

Chris is me said:

Choice Specs Cubone sounds like a joke because it probably is. I don't see why it should be there; you don't exactly pitch it well.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm not really trying to pitch it: it is just the set above except worse. Seems a lot like the Specs Mankey set to me.

And there is no Tri Attack tutor.

Rhyhorn


Stat--base min- min max max+
HP----80---N/A--24---27---N/A
Att---85---13---15---18---19
Def---95---14---16---19---20
Sp.A--30---8---9---12--13
Sp.D--30---8---9---12--13
Spe---25---8---9---12--13



[SET]
name: Rock Polish
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: Megahorn
move 4: Rock Polish
item: Expert Belt/Life Orb
ability: Rock Head
nature: Jolly
evs: 236 Atk/236 Spd/36 SDef

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Little Cup has such little variation in stats that even a slow pokemon like Rhyhorn can outrun most unboosted pokemon after a single Rock Polish. This set reaches 26 after Rock Polish, Adamant reaches 24.</p>

<p>Earthquake and Stone Edge are STAB, and Megahorn puts a heavy impact into Baltoy and Bronzor, the only two eligible pokemon in Little Cup that resist the combination. Expert Belt gives extra damage on the 10 types the Ground/Rock/Bug combination covers, while Life Orb adds extra punch to every one of Rhyhorn's attacks at the cost of 2HP per attack.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: Megahorn
move 4: Fire Fang
item: Choice Band
ability: Rock Head
nature: Jolly
evs: 236 Atk/236 Spd/36 SDef

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set can 2HKO every single pokemon in Little Cup with one of its moves. At 13 Speed it isn't going to be going first much, but Fire Fang destroys its most solid general counter, Bronzor, to the tune of 64-72% from Fire Fang on Max/Max +Def Bronzor. Nothing switches into this safely, and anything slower gets pulverized by a either Earthquake or Stone Edge.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Rhyhorn's horrible defensive typing means its plethora of support moves are mostly worthless. It's too slow for Swords Dance or Curse to be effective. Fire Blast is generally inferior to Fire Fang because Megahorn covers Grass types. Double-Edge does not do anything significantly better than either Earthquake or Stone Edge, but it does have one thing Stone Edge and Megahorn lack: perfect accuracy. With Rock Head preventing recoil, it makes a reasonable filler. Counter could find use to send back opponent's Earthquakes, but is generally unwise. Ice Fang and Thunder Fang can surprise opposing Ground or Water types respectively, but are generally inferior.</p>

[EVs]
<p>236 Atk/236 Spe/36 SDef should serve most sets well. Rhyhorn's bad defensive typing means it should go all out offense. It gets 15 SDef on these spreads in Sandstorm, which goes well with the 24 HP and 16 Def it always has.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Rhyhorn is a very hit-or-miss pokemon. It has competent HP and defense, an awesome STAB combination, plus an extremely powerful movepool with great coverage, but low speed a horrendous defensive typing. It is the epitome of high-risk high-reward. What sets it apart from counterparts like Cranidos and Cubone is its Double STAB and insane movepool.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Bronzor and Koffing effectively counter the Rock Polish set, but require prediction to beat Choice Band. Otherwise you need faster pokemon with good defense that are neutral to Rhyhorn's attacks like Cubone, Krabby, and Gligar.</p>

Rhyhorn pic from: http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/dpmfa/dpmfa111.png

has cranidos been done?
i wanna analyze...

Cranidos "Rock Polisher"
@Focus Sash
ev:236 Atk/212 Spe/60 HP adamant
trait:Mold Breaker
Rock Polish
Pursuit
Earthquake
Stone Edge

yea this guy owns; EQ/Stone with Mold Breaker is unresisted in Little Cup (in particular Bronzor is KOd by EQ). Rock Polish to get speed to 30; Focus Sash to ensure a Rock Polish. Pursuit is filler; hits three of the five ghosts (Shuppet, Duskull, Misdreavus) harder than Ground/Rock (Gastly is weak to EQ (factoring in Mold Breaker) while Drifloon is weak to Stone Edge).

edit: are the 60 HP EV unnecessary?

edit: need a counters list for this Cranidos.