Strategies for UU pokemon to use in OU battles - All-out discussion thread

Well... I've used this Ariados set before...

Ariados@Focus Sash- Insomnia
Adamant- 252 atk, 252 spd, 4 hp
Spider Web
Baton Pass
Poison Jab
Sucker Punch

Don't laugh, this can actually do things. Firstly, of course, it always beats Breloom unless it's carrying Stone Edge, and Ariados still has a good shot at it if his sash hasn't been broken/the Breloom doesn't have a sub up. If you can force something such as the aforementioned Breloom to switch, you can trap the incoming poke and Baton Pass to a counter a la Umbreon. Works great on Celetran- Heatran will come in to take the Poison Jab, get trapped, and then cry as I Baton Pass to Snorlax or whatever. Note that this only works if sash is intact.

Usually this set does the most damage through surprise- most opponents don't know what it can do. I've had Celebis stay in and try to stall me, then get overwhelmed by Poison Jab. In addition, Sucker Punch can OHKO 4 HP/0 Def Gengar (it almost always will with Stealth Rock damage) and a lot of them don't see it coming- even if they do, Insomnia leaves them with few choices on what to do.

Best used with a Rapid Spinner and something to kill Heatran with.

dingusxavier said:

Don't laugh, this can actually do things.

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i bet it can do a lot, not to mention is the exact same set written in ariados analysis page...

imo this thread is good but just writing sets is not really productive to the discussion, shouldn't we start to discuss them also?

Really? Well, I'm sorry then.

Does it matter, though? By putting it here I'm promoting it and encouraging people to use it. Seems worthwhile.

Efreet said:

imo this thread is good but just writing sets is not really productive to the discussion, shouldn't we start to discuss them also?

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Yeah, we really should. It'd be a much more effective way of improving on sets and promoting use of UU's.

And, let's try to avoid the posting of analysis movesets... it defeats the purpose of this thread. At least try to change it slightly to fit other situations/needs...

I've been trialling two sets suggested so far, Trust's Jynx and Forsety's Drapion (slightly tweaked running Taunt > Roar/Whirlwind). Both are proving excellent additions to my team to the extent that I was almost tempted to write up my last battle into warstory. Both are recommended.

Efreet said:

i bet it can do a lot, not to mention is the exact same set written in ariados analysis page...

imo this thread is good but just writing sets is not really productive to the discussion, shouldn't we start to discuss them also?

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Yes, that's why I requested that people put a Niche section in their sets. However, a lot of people seem to be avoiding that, even though I actually put an asterisk beside it my in example. That's the best way to promote discussion in this thread, because then we can actually discuss what that UU has over the OUs, giving a real reason to use it, rather than "here's a set".

If the UU is totally outclassed by something in OU, then don't post it. I don't want a bunch of people posting inferior sets here. Chances are, if you're posting something that isn't outclassed, you can do a niche section. It doesn't actually have to say that it's a niche section, just say how that UU's set sets it apart from other OUs. Then we can get some better discussion.

OK, Bologo, I'll fix it.

skiddle said:

PWNsauce Clefable lead.

Clefable @ Toxic Orb
252 HP 252 Sp. Def 6 Def
Calm Nature (cushions the blow from focus blast)

Protect
Encore
Wish
Ice Beam


Totally anti-lead. I had a Pursuiter to remove Gengar once I encored the move I wanted. Protect scouts stuff for you to Encore (stealth rock, stat-uppers). Wish helps heal Clefable and your team. Ice Beam for lack of a better offensive option. The only thing you gotta worry about is Gyarados, and even then, I Encored DD a bunch of times... they're so stupid.

I know the EV spread is dull compared to the other stuff I cook up, but I really liked taking only 60ish from Gengar's Focus Blast.

Risk/Reward: Pretty much invites Infernape and Lucario to come in, but this Clefable will be switching in and out a lot anyway, so it's not too big of a deal. Immune to Status, so 3/4 times it's a good switch in to Scarfgar. Also PWNs Breloom. Immune to Spore and forces it to Sub instead of Focus Punch.

Niche: Starts the match out right by having an answer to gengar and bronzong leads, as well as becoming a status absorber, wish passer, scouter, anti-setup, and Breloom counter later on in the game.



Xatu @ Leftovers
252 HP, 82 DEF, 176 Spe
Bold Nature

Psychic/Grass Knot
Thunderwave
Wish
Roost/U-Turn

I used Xatu a lot in UU, but I added some speed EVs and took my team to OU. I did surprisingly well, although Garchomp and Salamence were problems. Anyways, it outruns Jolly Breloom, and Togekiss, who you can Paralyze. I reccomend Early Bird, because Hypnosis is popular. Most times you'll wake up in one turn while they try and "set-up on the switch", and you can paralyze em. Psychic is a nice STAB move, but Grass Knot is OK for dealing with ground types.

Wish is so Xatu can actually help the team. Roost removes those nasty Rock, Electric and Ice weaknesses, and you still resist Fighting! U-Turn helps you predict switches and get roosts to the intended target.

Risk/Reward: Xatu is just so cool, it's a pity he isn't better. He has crappy defenses that even huge EV investment doesn't help too much. However, this set still hits a defense tier of 116.76, which isn't terrible. You can still get in on your resistances and use Xatu's plethora of supportive moves. Roost and Wish go a long way to keeping Xatu around, it's deceptive how tough he is when he has such great recovery.

Niche: has a neat 4x fighting resistance, and two awesome recovery moves. Thunder Wave is always nice, and can catch special attackers on the switch in (because we all know they're gonna try and thunderbolt/ice beam/shadow ball poor Xatu). While difficult to use effectively, Xatu is a fairly sturdy pokemon, and has nice resistances compared to some other wish passers. Early Bird makes him wake up quickly, so letting him sleep isn't much on an issue.


Hitmonchan @ Choice Band
128 HP, 240 ATK, 140 Spe

Focus Punch
Pursuit
Thunderpunch/Stone Edge/Close Combat
Ice Punch

Guess how much damage this Focus Punch does? Over 20% more than Garchomp's Choice Band Outrage. Nothing in the entire game is gonna want to eat that attack. It does 40% to Gliscor, and he resists it. Ice Punch obviously OHKOs. Pursuit is still powerful without STAB, coming off of 500+ attack. The last move is your choice, really. You'll never get past Cress, so it's up to Thunderpunch, Stone Edge, and another reliable fighting attack.

This spread outruns Adamant Tyranitar, has 273 HP for sponging hits, and almost maximum attack. It's very fearsome indeed unless you have a sturdy floaty Psychic (besides bronzong, Jirachi and Metagross of course)

Risk/Reward: Hitmonchan is frail on the physical side, but having the strongest Close Combat and/or Focus Punch is nothing to sneer at. 2HKOs the most commonly used physical walls.

Niche: Again, strongest fighting attack in the game. High special defense is always a plus, and has an excellent movepool, all complimented by iron Fist.

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Ninetales (M) @ Wide Lens / Focus Sash
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/112 SAtk/140 SDef
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Hypnosis
- Will-o-wisp / Safegaurd
- Grudge

Strategy behind it:

Strategy is to lead off with Ninetales and cripple as many things as possible from the get go. Really simple to be honest. You've got 3 options to choose. Hypnosis, WoW and Fire Blast. When you feel her time is up, grudge something if possible which can help you get an easy switch in or a free set up turn and sweep. The item is up to you personally, do you want 3 of the 4 of your moves accuracy being boosted or do you want a back up incase the status moves or Fire Blasts miss? You can't really go wrong with either option.

Safeguard:

The only reasons you may want to you this is to prevent Lum Berry Bronzongs sleeping you, 112 SpA Evs are given to guarantee a 2HKO on Sassy 252HP/128SpD Bronzong. Or there's the other option. Blissey. Thunderwaving Ninetales screws her Grudging strategy so Safeguard up against Blissey and keep Fire Blasting until you're about to die then Grudge off her Seismic Tosses/Ice Beam. Switch in accordingly now she has lost her attacking move.

Risk/Reward:

Crippling 3 things with your starter sounds pretty appealing to me. However without her burn to physical sweepers, she's fragile and can only withstand attacks such as CB 252Atk Jolly Weavile's Night Slash without being OHKOed.
If you miss your burn without the help of a focus sash to help keep you alive, you're more than likey going to be dead.

What its niche is in an OU team:

Gengar is the ONLY Pokemon who can also carry this set, so what sets it apart from Gengar? 2 things mainly, it's larger SpD base stat and well... Safegaurd. Unlike Gengar, it isn't going to be mauled as easily as Gengar who doesn't like Cress and her Psychic. Also Ninetales just screams switch into me Bliss so that's also a plus over Gengar. However, Gengar has better resistances and Immunities but if you want a Pokemon who can grudge effectivly and take special aassualts, Ninetales is you man, or girl. Ninetales is also cooler so there. That's enough reason to warrent it's use.

How does it fare against the 10 most popular leads?

# Bronzong (17218 leads) - Hypnosis, Safeguard or WoW. EQ coming off standard set doesn't OHKO. 29.17% - 34.72% - Burned 0 Atk EQ to Ninetales.
# Gengar (11189 leads) - Switch. 20.14% - 23.96% Shadow Ball. No way near OHKOing Ninetales.
# Tyranitar (10515 leads) - More than likely WoW or Hypnosis. 81.94% - 96.53% - Burned 252 Atk Stone Edge to Ninetales. 20.51% Chance of being killed with Sand Storm in play.
# Gyarados (9346 leads) - WoW is probably the better option. 52.08% - 61.11% - Burned 16 Atk Waterfall to Ninetales.
# Ninjask (6899 leads) - Fire Blast or switch.
# Azelf (6769 leads) - Hypnosis. 55.33% - 65.33% - Fire Blast to 36 HP Azelf. Safe 2HKO.
# Salamence (6410 leads) - Hypnosis or if they're expecting a switch for a free DD, WoW. 54.86% - 64.58% - Burned 252 Atk EQ to Ninetales.
# Hippowdon (5778 leads) - WoW or Hypnosis. 58.33% - 68.75% - Burned 6 Atk EQ to Ninetales.
# Yanmega (5708 leads) - Fire Blast if it's Specs otherwise switch, good luck predicting that. Don't want to get slept now do we?
# Roserade (5411 leads) - Look at Yanmega but Scarfed. Other versions can be Fire Blasted to death.

Sorry if it's too long Bologo. ;__;

Noodle said:

Sorry if it's too long Bologo. ;__;

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Ehh, this is exactly the kind of format I'd like people to post with movesets. It wasn't too long, the point is create discussion and throwing lots of strategy and such about the moveset makes for lots of discussion. Heh, no need to apologize, the moveset looks great, and the format looks great. :]

The only nitpick I have is that Gengar doesn't actually learn Fire Blast. The only Special Fire move he has is HP Fire, which means that your set is successfully unique from all other OU pokemon, even Gengar. Good job!

Reposting with 3-section format.

Jumpluff @ Focus Sash
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 136 HP/120 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Sunny Day
- Sleep Powder
- Encore
- U-turn / Memento / Substitute

Strategy behind it

This is a fantastic anti-lead, especially if you have something like Bellyzard on your team that needs a turn to set up a sweep. Usually Sunny Day is used first (near-guaranteed thanks to the sash), followed by a Sleep Powder off of 700 Speed. Alternately, you can Encore a non-offensive move such a Jolteon's Substitute or Yanmega's Protect; you can even Encore an offensive move in suicide to give something else time to set up (such as Encoring a Tbolt and going to Chomp, or Stone Edge to SDLuke, etc). The last slot can be filled with your choice of support move: U-Turn allows you to scout your opponent's switch after a Sleep Powder/Encore (or even laugh and bring out [stat-up sweeper] as they don't switch for whatever reason); Memento is a little gimmicky, but can be used as a pseudo-Explosion to set up something like Bellyzard; and Substitute will protect you from something like Lum Bronzong's Hypnosis (who you wouldn't beat without Sub, as you will get slept if you SD or Sleep Powder).

This set's usefulness isn't limited to leading, either. Having a speedy Sleep / Encore is always invaluable, and can turn the tables on a lot of stat-uppers. Switching in on Chomp's SD and Encoring it is sheer hilarity.

Risk/Reward

Really, the only things you really need to fear with this as a lead are fast Sleepers (such as Scarfgar) who can take you out of commission before you can set up SD. A fast Taunt from something like Crobat or Deoxys-S also shuts this down. Rewards include getting free setup turns due to Encore and Sleep Powder, and a couple turns of sun for teammates.

What its niche is in an OU team (something that sets it apart from other pokemon in OU so it's not outclassed)?

Jumpluff has the second-fastest Encore in the game (after Alakazam), easily becoming the fastest in sun. If that weren't enough, it can launch absurdly fast Sleep Powders, and the sun can be a fringe benefit to team members too. This is a set that no other Pokemon can pull off, and it showcases Jumpluff's strengths perfectly.

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Lonely
Dry Skin

104 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 152 Spd

- Cross Chop
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball / Vacuum Wave
- HP Electric / Vacuum Wave

Does a great job of breaking down walls, and more importantly, bulky waters. It can even switch into them for a free 25% healing. Even though Vappy and Milotic are only 2HKO'd after a boost, they can't hit Croak with their STABs, and a 273 Ice Beam only does 36.81% - 43.32% to Toxicroak, so you can just take one hit and NP again, and next turn OHKO and you are left with a +4 Toxicroak and your opponent has got to choose what to send in against it. That's why I like Vacuum Wave, a STAB priority move coming off over 1000 SpAtk if you factor in Life Orb, that will fuck nearly any faster sweeper that your opponent wants to send in to revenge. This guy is fun to play, its awesome switch in on Bliss and NP when they switch into a physical wall, and then watch them switch right back to Bliss lol. EV's to outspeed Max Spd Jolly Tar. This guy works great in the rain.


Here's some quick calcs

Cross Chop vs Neutral 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey: Damage: 109.22% - 128.42%
Cross Chop vs Bold 252 HP / 252 Def Blissey: Damage: 91.18% - 107.28%


+2 Shadow Ball vs Neutral 20 HP / 0 SpDef Cresselia: 71.50% - 84.20%
+2 Shadow Ball vs Neutral 20 HP / 148 SpDef Cresselia: 55.41% - 65.32%
+2 Shadow Ball vs Neutral 212 HP / 0 SpDef Slowbro: 108.07% - 127.08%
+2 Shadow Ball vs Neutral 172 HP / 0 SpDef Starmie: 129.93% - 152.96%

+2 HP Electric vs Neutral 252 HP / 0 SpDef Skarmory: 121.26% - 142.51%
+2 HP Electric vs Neutral 216 HP / 0 SpDef Gyarados: 157.40% - 185.19%

Wouldn't Swords Dance Sucker Punch/Cross Chop/Stone Edge fare much better? Im sure Nasty Plot Shadow Ball is good for Cresselia but in OU it seems as Stone Edge with a Swords Dance still ohkos gyarados, cross chop will easily 2hko skarm and ohko with the crit, sucker punch will beat slowbro and cresselia.

I feel toxicroak just cant use a mixed set to his advantage. Stick with all special or all offensive. I just dont seem him becoming to much of a threat in OU and feel he would be outclassed, especially by NP Infernape who would outclass everything he is doing:

Speed
Close Combat > Cross Chop
Nasty Plot
Fire Blast > Shadow Ball
Grass Knot > HP Elc
More Special Attack and Attack

Toxicroak does hold something special in Dry skin however allowing him to counter starmie, suicune, and vaporeon fairly well.

ultimatefreshness - If you're going to use a NP Toxicroak, Vaccum Wave HAS to be on there. It's the only thing that actually sets it apart from Infernape besides Dry Skin and the different typing, and it's the only pokemon with a priority special move that can be boosted 2 stages at a time.

Also, why use Shadow Ball when you have Dark Pulse? It doesn't have an immunity, and it's super-effective against the exact same types as Shadow Ball.

KinglerDude24 - To be fair, Toxicroak DOES have more attack than Infernape (106 v. 104 base). Not that it matters. I've used NP Toxicroak before in OU, and it works perfectly fine. Remember, it is one of the few pure special attacking sets that can actually beat Blissey.

Dunno if its known or not, but I currently use Relicanth in my teams.

I hope we're talking about single UU Pkm and not solely UU Teams

I start with Ninjask ( OU, hooray) --> Protect / SD / Baton Pass / Filler
with the Item Focus Sash. So I mostly get +1Spe and +2Att ( ofc not against Priority Attackers and SS + Hail, then I just get 1 or 2 Speed ).
If my opponent is a physical Attacker, I switch to Relicanth --> Head Smash / Waterfall / Earthquake / Filler, though I mostly use Head Smash, cuz it has CB.

So, if effective or not, it outspeeds most "non-Scarfer" Pkm and kills them. Ofc Head Smash may miss etc, but this strategy is very effective. I even swept a whole team with him.

It may not work all the time, but it deserves to be noticed :D

T_T said:

Dunno if its known or not, but I currently use Relicanth in my teams.

I hope we're talking about single UU Pkm and not solely UU Teams

I start with Ninjask ( OU, hooray) --> Protect / SD / Baton Pass / Filler
with the Item Focus Sash. So I mostly get +1Spe and +2Att ( ofc not against Priority Attackers and SS + Hail, then I just get 1 or 2 Speed ).
If my opponent is a physical Attacker, I switch to Relicanth --> Head Smash / Waterfall / Earthquake / Filler, though I mostly use Head Smash, cuz it has CB.

So, if effective or not, it outspeeds most "non-Scarfer" Pkm and kills them. Ofc Head Smash may miss etc, but this strategy is very effective. I even swept a whole team with him.

It may not work all the time, but it deserves to be noticed :D

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No it doesn't. Every other pokemon in the game can sweep if they have boosts passed to them. If I pass +6 Atk to my Luvdisc I can sweep with that too. -.-

Yeah anything with +6 attack and +6 speed will sweep entire teams. Pointing Relicanth out for being able to do that isnt special. What is special is that he can be a threat with choice scarf and head smash. I believe he will ohko zapdos.

Bologo, Fun Fact: Luvdisc with +6 attack and speed will not sweep teams as his WaterFall against a 4 HP Garchomp will be:

Defender HP: 358
Move Damage: 266 - 313
Damage: 74.30% - 87.43%

So Luvdisc even with adamant, 252 attack evs, 31 attack ivs, +6 attack and a Stab base 80 power attack ... wont beat everything as garchomp can easily survive waterfall and kill with outrage/earthquake

KinglerDude24 said:

Bologo, Fun Fact: Luvdisc with +6 attack and speed will not sweep teams as his WaterFall against a 4 HP Garchomp will be:

Defender HP: 358
Move Damage: 266 - 313
Damage: 74.30% - 87.43%

So Luvdisc even with adamant, 252 attack evs, 31 attack ivs, +6 attack and a Stab base 80 power attack ... wont beat everything as garchomp can easily survive waterfall and kill with outrage/earthquake

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Heh, alright fine. Just to make this strategy even better, let's pass it +6 Def and +6 SDef too!

See how out of hand this kind of strategy can get? I like to think that when a pokemon is good enough to post, then that means that they can at least do something on their own without having to rely on something else to spoonfeed them everything. CS Relicanth is actually good though, like KD24 said. Try out Relicanth sometime, it's great, provided that you don't make it dependent on others on the team.

The only way I'd ever bother to make Relicanth dependent on others on my team were if I had T-Tar or Hippowdon there to make Reli take hits from both sides of the spectrum like a champ.

The key to making UU pokemon work in OU is playing to their unique strengths, and not playing them like OU pokemon with weaker stats. This means stay away from the choice sets, stay away from the 50% recovery moves. Most UU don't have the sufficient combination of attack and speed/defenses to make choice items feasable, nor do they have the hp/defenses to make 50% recovery feasable. Most people try to use these sets, because these sets are the most effective amongst OU pokemon and therefore the most familiar sets to most people. But when using this with UU pokemon, your basically just using underpowered versions of OU pokemon, which makes no sense at all since you would just use the stronger OU counterpart with the same moveset.

TVboyCanti said:

The key to making UU pokemon work in OU is playing to their unique strengths, and not playing them like OU pokemon with weaker stats. This means stay away from the choice sets, stay away from the 50% recovery moves. Most UU don't have the sufficient combination of attack and speed/defenses to make choice items feasable, nor do they have the hp/defenses to make 50% recovery feasable. Most people try to use these sets, because these sets are the most effective amongst OU pokemon and therefore the most familiar sets to most people. But when using this with UU pokemon, your basically just using underpowered versions of OU pokemon, which makes no sense at all since you would just use the stronger OU counterpart with the same moveset.

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I agreed with your first sentence, but a lot of the other stuff you said just isn't really true. For instance, the ONLY thing (besides Stockpile) that Gastrodon has over Swampert IS the 50% recovery move. However, from what you said, I shouldn't be using that, right?

Also, some of the toughest sweepers reside in UU, the only reason they're even there is usually because of their horrible typings. For example, I already mentioned Kabutops, and MoP already mentioned that he's pretty hard to counter in OU, and that can work with a Choice item. There's also Specs Omastar, and with Hydro Pump & HP Electric, not much can stand up to him, especially with Hydro Pump OHKOing pretty much everything that doesn't resist it, except for stuff like Blissey (Blissey can even get 2HKOed in the Rain!). There's also Glaceon, who I shouldn't even HAVE to mention. However, you said that Choice sets aren't viable, so I probably shouldn't be doing that.

In other words, most people try to use these sets, because they're that pokemon's best bet in OU. For instance, if you DON'T use Gastrodon with Recover, then he's definitely a poor man's Swampert, however, Recover gives him a fighting chance in the OU environment.

Luxray (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk/232 Spd 24 into HP Def, or SPdef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Ice Fang
- Spark
- Return/Fire Fang/Iron Tail

A lead poke

351 Speed beats all 110 starters. Yeah surpise that timid Gengar (Not-Scarfed)

Intimidate is a great lead, allowing you to switch safely if their lead is better. You can also come back at least once, twice on a weak physical sweeper since Electric has 1 weak and you'll never switch into that. Ground (earhquake)

Return for general coverage of power. Iron Tail for Tyranitar. Fire Fang for steel pokes.

You can outspeed 120 base if you want to. 375 is reached through 208 evs and Jolly.

Adamant _--> Jolly gives -32 attack stat. Your Choice

I'm saying that if an UU pokemon has to use a choice item or a 50% recovery move to be effective, then they can't serve a purpose in OU. Also, Gastrodon may have recover over Swampert, but Swampert has Stealth Rock and Gastrodon has only toxic, so Swampert still beats Gastro in the moves department, recover or no recover, in that it actually does something while Gastro can only sit there and get set-up on. This is why, despite swampert and Gastrodon having nearly identical base stats, swampert is OU and Gastrodon is UU.

On that note, UU walls (like gastrodon) are usually the UU pokes that fail the worst in OU. OU offensive pokemon are pushed to the extreme to break throught the tough OU walls, so UU walls usually don't provide a problem for them. That is why I say 50% shouldn't be bothered with when trying to use UU pokes in OU, they don't have the defenses(or the lack of weaknesses in many cases) to make use of those 50% recovery moves.

Anyway, my favorite UU in OU poke is this one
Jumpluff
Jolly w/leftovers
252 speed evs 252 sp def evs
leech seed
encore
substitute
sleep powder

best sub seeder in the game hands down. switch in on an earthquake or surf, encore or substitute(outpredicting the switch), then go to town with leech seed. support with stealthrock/spikes/toxic spikes and your golden. sleep powder off of 350 speed stat is sexy too, just ask gengar. If they send out a grass type, just encore whatever move it uses and switch to something that can absorb the offensive attack or setup for a sweep if they used a support move.

TVboyCanti said:

On that note, UU walls (like gastrodon) are usually the UU pokes that fail the worst in OU. OU offensive pokemon are pushed to the extreme to break throught the tough OU walls, so UU walls usually don't provide a problem for them. That is why I say 50% shouldn't be bothered with when trying to use UU pokes in OU, they don't have the defenses(or the lack of weaknesses in many cases) to make use of those 50% recovery moves.

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That is simply ridiculous. Gastrodon has 1 weakness to grass and has great defenses:

Gastrodon has 11 more HP bp then Swampert. He also has 7 more special attack. His stats are different from swampert in that Swampert has more Speed, Attack, and Defense, while Gastrodon has more HP and Special Attack. They both have around the same Special Defense.

Gastrodon has recover, Stockpile, Amnesia, and Yawn. All moves swampert lacks. Gastrodon has some things Swampert wants, while Swampert has some things Gastrodon want. I use gastrodon in OU with success. How can play differently from swampert.

Oh and I also use shuckle in OU. Are you to tell me he has no walling capbilities? Thats what Im getting from your post, that UU pokemon just cant perform in OU thanks to weaknesses and no ability to wall.

Venomoth @ Leftovers
EVs: 8 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 248 Spd (HP Fire)
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
Ability: Tinted Lens

° Substitute
° Sleep Powder
° HP Fire / Bug Buzz
° Baton Pass

Strategy behind it:

One of the best shots of seeing Venomoth being used in OU is as a baton passer. Pass substitutes to frail sweepers or pokemon that can use the comfort the sub provides to effectively set up for a sweep. Sleep Powder provides ample set-up against a non-sleep talker. The threat the popular Specs set presents is lessened somewhat; Venomoth cannot jump the fat hurdle that is Blissey.

The 252/252/4 EV spread is pretty basic, but max speed is required to reach 306 to tie with other base 90's with boosting natures, base 100's without boosting natures, and also beats non-scarf Garchomp without a boosting nature.
248 Speed EVs with HP Fire's handicap of a 30 speed IV reaches 304 speed. Enough to outspeed said non-scarf and non-boosting nature Garchomp(do people even use this).

92 HP/ 166 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spd is an alternate spread for a more defensive Venomoth. It should easily reach 304 HP.

tl;dr it passes subs and puts counters to sleep.

HP Fire / Bug Buzz:

The choice between HP Fire and Bug Buzz is one that requires careful consideration. If one does not fear Skarmory or if you're passing to a pokemon that can't be phazed out(think Suction Cups), Bug Buzz is the clearly superior choice. With Tinted Lens, Bug Buzz becomes a highly powerful attack being resisted only by pokemon with a 4x resist against bug.

Risk/Reward:

Sleep Powder does not have perfect accuracy and with Venomoth's frail defenses, it can be clipped of its wings quite fast. The reward is effectively a 5/6 or whatever lead discounting sleep talkers and a passed sub to a respective threat.

What its niche is in an OU team:

There are many pokemon capable of performing the Sub/Pass combo. Celebi passes 101 subs and can leech seed but does not have the luxury of a sleeping move. Mr. Mime also has 90 base speed and a sleeping move, cannot be roared away and has higher overall defenses than this venomoth's main spread. If you opt for a more defensive venomoth sacrificing special attack ev's then it clearly stands apart typing aside.

(I hope I did this well, any nitpicks for the niche section? ..anyways Venomoth is my favorite bug!)

TVboyCanti said:

I'm saying that if an UU pokemon has to use a choice item or a 50% recovery move to be effective, then they can't serve a purpose in OU. Also, Gastrodon may have recover over Swampert, but Swampert has Stealth Rock and Gastrodon has only toxic, so Swampert still beats Gastro in the moves department, recover or no recover, in that it actually does something while Gastro can only sit there and get set-up on. This is why, despite swampert and Gastrodon having nearly identical base stats, swampert is OU and Gastrodon is UU.

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Yeah, so I suppose that Cradily is a piece of shit in OU because it has to use Recover, even in Sandstorm with super-high special defense. Oops, I guess that CB Focus Punch Hitmonchan is a piece of shit too even though it has the strongest Fighting move in the game there. You can't seriously just state that because an UU pokemon has to use those things to be effective in OU, that it can't serve a purpose, especially it's using something that sets it apart from all other OU pokemon.

Swampert can Stealth Rock, but so what? I'd take Gastrodon's Yawn with Recovery over Stealth Rock with no recovery. Stealth Rock is only usually used once during the battle, and then after that, how else is Swampert supporting the team? At least with Yawn, Gastrodon can force switches and possibly open up a sweep for something else. In short, Gastrodon's much more of a team player than Swampert.

I'm not sure you've done any actual research on this, because last time I checked, the only reason that Swampert is OU, and Gastrodon UU, is that Gastrodon's physical defense isn't all that good, and he doesn't overpower UU, so he's allowed there. They both have great movepools, so that doesn't have much to do with it.

On that note, UU walls (like gastrodon) are usually the UU pokes that fail the worst in OU. OU offensive pokemon are pushed to the extreme to break throught the tough OU walls, so UU walls usually don't provide a problem for them. That is why I say 50% shouldn't be bothered with when trying to use UU pokes in OU, they don't have the defenses(or the lack of weaknesses in many cases) to make use of those 50% recovery moves.

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You say this when pokemon such as Lanturn can wall a crapload of stuff in OU, and even when it takes most special hits with relative ease, even if he does lack recovery besides Volt Absorb. Like I said about Cradily, he's great with Recover, and he functions amazingly in the OU metagame under Sandstorm. He makes use of it just fine, so I guess that's a bad thing? Even Noctowl and Pelipper work pretty well in OU matches, taking on stuff like Starmie and Gyarados with ease. The only 50% recovery moves that are bad in OU are stuff like Synthesis, Morning Sun and Moonlight because of Sandstorm. All the other 50% recovery moves are quite good, and a lot of OU walls would kill for them. Also, a lot of UU pokemon ARE UU because they lack 50% recovery moves, but they can still wall crap pretty well (eg. Steelix).

What about Wish Glaceon? That may not be a wall, but it's a hell of a tank to break. That, and Wish provides extra support to the team. Sorry, but you're still not convincing me, especially when it doesn't sound like you've done a lot of research on UU pokemon in OU to begin with. By that I mean actually using them in OU, and NOT theorymon, because this is not allowed to be a theorymon thread.